Author Topic: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?  (Read 5145 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2022, 04:49:50 PM »
Thomas is no wizard ...

Thomas has a very-small magical talent; not nil, but definitely not "wizard" caliber.  What Harry has called (in other contexts, describing mortals not whamps) a "minor talent" or a "have-not of the magical world."

I *think* there is WoJ on the [vamp X wizard] thing, stating that whamps aren't capable of White-Council levels of magic.
 

Offline Mira

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2022, 05:34:16 PM »
Thomas has a very-small magical talent; not nil, but definitely not "wizard" caliber.  What Harry has called (in other contexts, describing mortals not whamps) a "minor talent" or a "have-not of the magical world."

I *think* there is WoJ on the [vamp X wizard] thing, stating that whamps aren't capable of White-Council levels of magic.

I seem to remember Thomas saying as he was attempting a tracking spell that Harry had taught him, that he has about the same amount of magical talent as most vanilla humans.  That Harry had told him all humans have some talent, so doing the low level spell was possible.  I think though not sure because magical circles may work differently, but another example would be Butters in Dead Beat, drawing the circle and sitting inside it for protection so he could keep drumming to keep Sue going.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2022, 08:11:15 PM »
That is because Thomas was lazy. His vampire talent was another road to power. I remember Jim said something about white court wizards about doing things with their hunger.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2022, 09:08:41 PM »
That is because Thomas was lazy. His vampire talent was another road to power. I remember Jim said something about white court wizards about doing things with their hunger.

 There is no evidence that Thomas is lazy.. Even if he were, talent is talent, Harry used to go on and on in the earlier books as to how lazy he is, yet he is a very powerful and dangerous wizard.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2022, 02:57:07 AM »
There is no evidence that Thomas is lazy.. Even if he were, talent is talent, Harry used to go on and on in the earlier books as to how lazy he is, yet he is a very powerful and dangerous wizard.
There was a woj somewhere about it. Thomas got his wizard talent from his  mother but did not put the effort in it needed to develop it more.
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Offline g33k

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2022, 04:35:16 AM »
We seem to recollect different things in WoJ's.
Maybe Jim has rectcon'ed the Dresdenverse ...

Offline Mira

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2022, 10:34:53 AM »
There was a woj somewhere about it. Thomas got his wizard talent from his  mother but did not put the effort in it needed to develop it more.
That isn't evidence, until you produce it.. So all we have is what Thomas himself said.  Also what underscores this, though I get he'd feel threatened by a wizard son, I doubt that Lord Raith would leave magical talent unexploited. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2022, 05:58:14 PM »
That isn't evidence, until you produce it.. So all we have is what Thomas himself said.  Also what underscores this, though I get he'd feel threatened by a wizard son, I doubt that Lord Raith would leave magical talent unexploited.
I think he wanted a wizard daughter. With his peculiarities a son was bad luck.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2022, 07:15:36 PM »
I think he wanted a wizard daughter. With his peculiarities a son was bad luck.
He may have, but that isn't what he got, not even a son with wizard level talent.

Offline g33k

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2022, 11:22:32 PM »
I seem to remember Thomas saying as he was attempting a tracking spell that Harry had taught him, that he has about the same amount of magical talent as most vanilla humans.  That Harry had told him all humans have some talent, so doing the low level spell was possible.  I think though not sure because magical circles may work differently, but another example would be Butters in Dead Beat, drawing the circle and sitting inside it for protection so he could keep drumming to keep Sue going.

I think Harry was lying to Thomas, saying "all humans have some talent, so doing the low level spell was possible."  I think that was just a pep-talk, a confidence-booster.  Because having the confidence it will work is a key component of successful casting.

We've seen some ritual magic described as like a "magical vending machine," no talent needed.  Put in the coin & push the button, out pops the reward.  I think magic circles are *exactly* that sort of ritual... but tracking-spells are not.
 

Offline Mira

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #85 on: June 10, 2022, 05:09:57 AM »
I think Harry was lying to Thomas, saying "all humans have some talent, so doing the low level spell was possible."  I think that was just a pep-talk, a confidence-booster.  Because having the confidence it will work is a key component of successful casting.

We've seen some ritual magic described as like a "magical vending machine," no talent needed.  Put in the coin & push the button, out pops the reward.  I think magic circles are *exactly* that sort of ritual... but tracking-spells are not.

I don't think so, the reason I don't think so is especially when wizards and warlocks are kids, at some point their talent becomes clear.  No training needed, it was true for Harry,Molly, Charity, the Korean Kid, I could go on, but the point is, it appears.  It is a theme that repeats itself in the series, if left to itself it gets misused by an experimenting kid who unless taken up and trained early becomes a warlock. Charity was at that point until she met Michael, then she let her talent fade.. So what I am trying to say is if it had shown up in Thomas, I doubt he would have or could have hid it or not tried to use it, or would have known to do either.

Offline g33k

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2022, 03:24:43 PM »
I don't think so, the reason I don't think so is especially when wizards and warlocks are kids, at some point their talent becomes clear.  No training needed, it was true for Harry,Molly, Charity, the Korean Kid, I could go on, but the point is, it appears.  It is a theme that repeats itself in the series, if left to itself it gets misused by an experimenting kid who unless taken up and trained early becomes a warlock. Charity was at that point until she met Michael, then she let her talent fade.. So what I am trying to say is if it had shown up in Thomas, I doubt he would have or could have hid it or not tried to use it, or would have known to do either.
I think that's for the strong talents, the ones at-or-near being White Council caliber.

It may still show up in the weaker kids... but much less clearly/obviously.  As Dresden says about ... Abbie(?), the woman with the small dog & "Cassandra's Tears," it is usually mistaken for something else.  Charity's own case is I think typical:  she just looked to her parents & other "experts" like a typical "troubled teen."  It wasn't until she hooked up with the coven that she got recognition / confirmation that she wasn't crazy, but actually had magic.

And puberty -- when magic often begins to come in -- is also when horniness & thus Whampiness begins to manifest.  I expect Thomas was well-equipped with "cover" that hid any minor talent beginning to manifest.

And frankly, only his dad was likely on the lookout for signs of it; and his dad wasn't likely to give him any hints or help about any powerup!
 

Offline Mira

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2022, 06:48:57 PM »
Quote
And puberty -- when magic often begins to come in -- is also when horniness & thus Whampiness begins to manifest.  I expect Thomas was well-equipped with "cover" that hid any minor talent beginning to manifest.

Or it makes sense that he'd be too "hungry,"Horny, and confused to do so.  Also like any other kid in his position, he wouldn't know he needed to hide it... So while Thomas may have some talent, it is so
mild that it is hardly worth mentioning.  Or would have faded from lack of use, because he'd have no need to use it.

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #88 on: June 10, 2022, 08:29:27 PM »
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/

Unverified WoJ from the 2011 Naperville signing:
ĎAre there White Court vampire wizards?í
Yes, there are. Thomas is middle-of-the-road in power and [ed: think Iím remembering this correctly] the strongest donít get as strong as mortal wizards [/ed], but they can pull off some strong tricks with their Hunger.
2015 Grid Daily interview


This prompted my personal theory that the Hunger sustains itself by being parasitic on their talent- meaning White Court fertility would be matched to that of humans if only the talented (Paranet level, at least) could have children. Recalling that magic is a force of life generated by strong emotions, and the White Court feeds on emotions, they could simply be replacing what they lost- similar to the mechanism described for the antagonist by Barbara Hambly in her Dragonsbane, which I'm pretty sure, given our relative ages, Jim read.

This would mean that White Court practitioners are  those with "excess" talent after "displacement" by the parasite- so never as strong as mortal wizards, because without their parasite they'd be mortal wizards. It would also imply that elder White Court vampires may know that practitioners are the way to prop their numbers- and therefore why the Skavis plan was never tried before, it'd be suicide.

That's my theory. The WoJ is above, along with where I found it. There's a sidebar about this in the RPG book too, as I recall- the idea that they can super-charge certain spells with their Hunger demon- but I never paid attention to their mechanisms.

Offline g33k

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Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
« Reply #89 on: June 10, 2022, 09:19:29 PM »
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/

Unverified WoJ from the 2011 Naperville signing:
ĎAre there White Court vampire wizards?í
Yes, there are. Thomas is middle-of-the-road in power and [ed: think Iím remembering this correctly] the strongest donít get as strong as mortal wizards [/ed], but they can pull off some strong tricks with their Hunger.
2015 Grid Daily interview

... It would also imply that elder White Court vampires may know that practitioners are the way to prop their numbers- and therefore why the Skavis plan was never tried before, it'd be suicide. 
That seems odd, in that apparently Lara was behind this move, and she presumably has acccess to everything pere Raith knows, and to the (in)famous Raith library.

OTOH, I wouldn't put it past her to set it up with the intention it would fail, knowing that when the "herd-cull" got to Chicago (and involved Thomas & Harry) the plan would be ended with extreme prejudice (and (with any luck whatsoever!) ancillary damage to houses Skavis, Malvora, & any others among her whamp enemies).  So, maybe not so odd...

Maybe.  It seems like a horribly existential risk to take, since (once the plot was launched) her ability to guide it was minimal; what if they'd moved to Europe, or stayed bi-coastal & avoided the midwest, etc?  What if they hadn't gotten sloppy-enough to get noticed, just blew through Chi-town before Dresden (or Thomas) picked up the scent?  Lara being suicidal seems really out of character!