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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on May 03, 2022, 10:25:28 PM

Title: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: morriswalters on May 03, 2022, 10:25:28 PM
Assuming true love, who wears the latex? Or does Lara bring in a third party, ala Justine?
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 03, 2022, 10:49:51 PM
 :o
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 03, 2022, 11:18:57 PM
Harry has to be willing to consummate.

Mab is going to have to order him. That wonít sit well with Lara.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mr. Mouse on May 03, 2022, 11:33:45 PM
Don't forget, their first kiss wrenched Harry's back and rocked the ground Lara lives on.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 04, 2022, 03:45:32 AM
Don't forget, their first kiss wrenched Harry's back and rocked the ground Lara lives on.
It also burned the hell out of her lips because of his lost love, Susan..  Unless he is out of love with Murphy's memory this time it will burn them clean off..
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: gorgonson on May 04, 2022, 01:33:08 PM
Well, Mab also told Lara that Harry was part of her house and not to eat that "porridge" or unlike Goldilocks the bears will have eaten you. Or something along those lines. I don't have my copy in front of me at the moment. And I don't think they can consummate the relationship without Lara addicting Harry.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 04, 2022, 01:58:14 PM
Perhaps they just smear each other with porridge?
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mr. Mouse on May 04, 2022, 03:40:53 PM
It also burned the hell out of her lips because of his lost love, Susan..  Unless he is out of love with Murphy's memory this time it will burn them clean off..

Don't mention that to Mab or she'll call Harry to the Stone Table again and make Lara and Molly witness it in person.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mr. Mouse on May 04, 2022, 03:44:33 PM
Well, Mab also told Lara that Harry was part of her house and not to eat that "porridge" or unlike Goldilocks the bears will have eaten you. Or something along those lines. I don't have my copy in front of me at the moment. And I don't think they can consummate the relationship without Lara addicting Harry.

Margaret wasn't completely under Papa Raith's spell and she wasn't even a starborn. A interesting question in light of Bigfoot on Campus is how much Harry's growing powers would allow Lara to feed on him without completely draining him if she really needed it.

Is that the solution for Thomas, a lady Bigfoot?
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 04, 2022, 04:47:57 PM
Or an alternative food source, love instead lifeforce.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: RobReece on May 04, 2022, 09:38:51 PM
Assuming true love, who wears the latex? Or does Lara bring in a third party, ala Justine?

While I'm sure that they'd love to get their hands on Justine again... I don't think she's a proper candidate to assist them, after all, she's already Nemfected, don't know if Laura would be immune to that or not...
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 04, 2022, 11:51:43 PM
Harry is, but Nemesis is not an STD, It would depend on whether Laraís hunger objected to a a one person three way.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: vincentric on May 05, 2022, 01:49:50 AM
It only takes one encounter to cancel the lingering protection Harry gets from Murphy.

Unless that encounter was with someone who is also in love with Harry(so no Molly or Elaine, and possibly no Lea, Mab or Sarissa as remote cases). That eliminates 5 options out of 1/2 to 1 million in Chicago alone.

Mab could even throw Marcone a bone by ordering Harry to spend a day using all the amenities at  Marcone's gym and have Marcone on hand for confirmation of services rendered and used. It would anger Harry if it came to this but she'd only do it as a last option anyway.

More likely, Lara will provide a participant for the Michael/Justine method.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 05, 2022, 03:53:28 AM
Mab could herself demand her droit de seigneur with Harry as in Changes. It would actually be in keeping with the entire arrangement.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: ApollonianAcolyte on May 05, 2022, 05:02:44 PM
Another solution is hinted at in the short story, Something Borrowed. In that story, Bob says that Will marrying Jenny Greenteeth (disguised as Georgia) annuls Will's true love protection (and allow Jenny to enslave him). In his words:

ďI mean, if heís married to another, it canít really be pure love. Jennyís claim on him would prevent the kiss from lifting the spell.Ē

One could argue, based on this, that Harry marrying Lara would similarly annul his protection from Murphy. And conveniently, there's a wedding coming up. Now Jenny is a Sidhe not a Vamp, so it might not be valid to analogise these scenarios. But it is definitely suggestive.

Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: morriswalters on May 05, 2022, 05:15:19 PM
This thread has twisted reality in a way I didn't expect. Hats off to the posters. :o

Consider a couple of things.  First, no vampire child could have ever been a product of true love.  Think about it.  Second question I get that the Big Foot's boy can feed his vampire lover because of his reserves but how does she keep from getting burned if they have true love between them?
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 05, 2022, 05:35:28 PM
Another solution is hinted at in the short story, Something Borrowed. In that story, Bob says that Will marrying Jenny Greenteeth (disguised as Georgia) annuls Will's true love protection (and allow Jenny to enslave him). In his words:

ďI mean, if heís married to another, it canít really be pure love. Jennyís claim on him would prevent the kiss from lifting the spell.Ē

One could argue, based on this, that Harry marrying Lara would similarly annul his protection from Murphy. And conveniently, there's a wedding coming up. Now Jenny is a Sidhe not a Vamp, so it might not be valid to analogise these scenarios. But it is definitely suggestive.

But only if he has had sex with someone else since she died.  His protection from Susan lasted until he hooked up with Luccio.  Now granted Susan wasn't dead at the time of White Night, but Harry hadn't been with anyone else for a couple of years, and it burned the crap out of Lara's lips.  So would Murphy being dead make a difference? If not Lara cannot touch him till he hooks up with someone else.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: ApollonianAcolyte on May 05, 2022, 05:36:18 PM
First, no vampire child could have ever been a product of true love.  Think about it.

How so?

Second question I get that the Big Foot's boy can feed his vampire lover because of his reserves but how does she keep from getting burned if they have true love between them?

This is an interesting question with no definitive answer. Connie and Irwin are highly atypical in a few ways:


Or maybe they just don't actually love each other.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: ApollonianAcolyte on May 05, 2022, 05:40:14 PM
But only if he has had sex with someone else since she died.    So would Murphy being dead make a difference? If not Lara cannot touch him till he hooks up with someone else.
I don't think that's true. Again, Bob's words were that marrying Jenny Greenteeth would annul Will's love protection even though Will was presumably completely faithful to Georgia and had no other sexual encounters. By the same logic, Harry being 'faithful' to Murphy should not prevent the wedding from annulling his true love protection. At least if the analogy is valid.

So would Murphy being dead make a difference? If not Lara cannot touch him till he hooks up with someone else.

Well, my logic is that Lara would not be able to touch him until after the wedding vows precisely because of the reasoning you present. But after the wedding vows, Harry's true love protection would be negated.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 05, 2022, 06:59:51 PM
Quote
I don't think that's true

It is true.. Page 373 White Night, Harry and Lara kiss..

Quote
She pressed closer, parted my lips with her tongue, and I thought I was going to explode.when she suddenly let out a hiss and recoiled from me, a hand flying to her mouth--but not before I saw the blisters rising from the burned flesh around her lips.

Then on the next page 373 White Night;
Quote
Lara turned away from me, huddling in upon herself."Bloody hell," she said after a moment.  "I can't believeyou're stillprotected.  But it's old. . . My intelligence said Ms. Rodriguez hadn't left South America."
"She hasn't," I croaked.
"You mean. . ." She turned and blinked at me, astonishment on her face,  "Dresden. . .do you mean to say that the last time you had relations with a woman was nearly four yearsago?"
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: morriswalters on May 05, 2022, 07:07:17 PM
How so?
If they have true love they can't have sex for procreation.  It's an explicit contradiction. For a male it would be like making love to a toaster. What Butcher writes but doesn't state explicitly is for the human to have the protection the human must be monogamous to the person loved.  But if they are monogamous the human is like a hot element in a toaster, but if that isn't true, then they don't have true love. In practical terms you have a couple where the women is monogamous and the man is running around.  A White could eat the husband but not the wife.  I don't write this stuff I just try to understand what Butcher is selling.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: ApollonianAcolyte on May 05, 2022, 07:44:48 PM
If they have true love they can't have sex for procreation.  It's an explicit contradiction. For a male it would be like making love to a toaster. What Butcher writes but doesn't state explicitly is for the human to have the protection the human must be monogamous to the person loved.  But if they are monogamous the human is like a hot element in a toaster, but if that isn't true, then they don't have true love. In practical terms you have a couple where the women is monogamous and the man is running around.  A White could eat the husband but not the wife.  I don't write this stuff I just try to understand what Butcher is selling.

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I see what you mean now. Though Thomas and Justine's relationship and the resultant pregnancy seems to serve as a counterexample, doesn't it? More speculatively, there is also the marriage loophole I advocated.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: ApollonianAcolyte on May 05, 2022, 07:53:19 PM
It is true.. Page 373 White Night, Harry and Lara kiss..

Then on the next page 373 White Night;

I think there's been some misunderstanding on your part or a miscommunication on mine.

First off, I have to ask: I have read White Night and am aware of all that you have quoted; have you read Something Borrowed? As I stated, my argument hinges on the events of that story.

Secondly, I want to reiterate that I am not denying that Lara cannot touch Harry while he is under the true love protection. I am of course aware that Lara is allergic to true love, and that Harry currently has that protection from Murphy.

So I am not arguing for Lara to be immune to the true love protection, I am providing an alternative (and speculative) way that the true love protection can be overcome apart from him hooking up with someone else, ie., through a wedding. Again the point is that the true love protection will end, not that Lara will be somehow immune to true love.

So pointing out that Lara was burnt by Harry's true love protection doesn't really address my point since I never denied that she was weak to true love.

I hope that was clear this time.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: morriswalters on May 05, 2022, 08:34:29 PM
Ah, thanks for the explanation. I see what you mean now. Though Thomas and Justine's relationship and the resultant pregnancy seems to serve as a counterexample, doesn't it? More speculatively, there is also the marriage loophole I advocated.
It proves how good a writer Butcher can be.  He sells it and I bought into it.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mr. Mouse on May 05, 2022, 09:20:07 PM
This thread has twisted reality in a way I didn't expect. Hats off to the posters. :o

Consider a couple of things.  First, no vampire child could have ever been a product of true love.  Think about it.

I don't believe that's the case. If the act of sex that places the imprint of true love on the partners is also the one which results in the pregnancy then the child would be the product of true love. For example, if Justine had become pregnant the night Thomas fed on her at the end of Blood Rites.

Quote
Second question I get that the Big Foot's boy can feed his vampire lover because of his reserves but how does she keep from getting burned if they have true love between them?

They didn't seem to have gotten to that point in their relationship when we see them in Bigfoot on Campus. Can you imagine the fight they might have if one of them gets angry that this hasn't become an issue for them? "You don't truly love me, otherwise there'd be 3rd degree burns!"
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 05, 2022, 09:25:25 PM
Has anyone thought Irwins life force is so powerful it is automatically healing his love as she burns from his touch?
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: forumghost on May 06, 2022, 12:53:51 AM
Maybe she's changed diets and literally lives on love lol.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 06, 2022, 04:52:53 AM
I think we are due a denouement as to the origins of the White Court, as part of the process of rescuing Thomas, and this may sweep up Irwins situation.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 06, 2022, 02:13:55 PM
Quote
So I am not arguing for Lara to be immune to the true love protection, I am providing an alternative (and speculative) way that the true love protection can be overcome apart from him hooking up with someone else, ie., through a wedding. Again the point is that the true love protection will end, not that Lara will be somehow immune to true love.

Jenny is not White Court if I remember correctly.. But it really doesn't matter, we've had this debate for years, if one is raped for example that blows one's true love protection.  It doesn't seem fair, but there you are. It's the physical sex act with another that blows the true love protection.  Even if Will didn't know it was Jenny, it was still Jenny, so that counts.  Harry is going to remain deeply in love with Murphy's memory for some time, if he takes up with another woman in the next year, his protection is blown... Lara may insist that he does, not taking a chance that he is still protected even though Murphy is dead.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: BrainFireBob on May 09, 2022, 05:57:15 AM
True love's not the thing. An act of true love's the thing.

Seems to function like ports. Vampire plugs in via holes in the security scan, an act of true love turns on security.

A wedding, sexual intercourse, and significant acts of self-sacrifice are the three turn-on acts we've seen in-series. If the act is done without true love, true love protection is over-written/displaced.

But it's when the act is done out of feeling that protection occurs, not just having the feeling. Until they were intimate, Harry had no protection from Murphy. If he falls in love with someone else or out of love with Murphy, his protection from an act of true love should remain.

Edit:

Connie and Irwin have a relationship where perhaps they are falling in love, but their intercourse was out of being teens. Her Hunger was sated without being exploded, so it never "woke up." How the heck that interacts, we don't know. Would touching Harry burn her, or is it only when they try to feed? Does Connie ever try to feed aside from mid coitus with Irwin?
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: vincentric on May 09, 2022, 06:12:55 AM
Well we know from Inari that the full Hunger doesn't kick in until after the first kill. Connie also may not have a kill(unknown) and now her love with Irwin may prevent full awakening just like Inari.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 09, 2022, 10:53:32 AM


  But they were....
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 09, 2022, 11:14:52 AM
Sheís a half Whamp? Enhanced strength, healing, reflexes, not quite up to the full Whamp level but no glamour, come hither or true love protection? That was Susanís situation as a half Ramp, she was stronger and faster and would have been longer lived, not up to full Red level, but no skin suit, full addictive drool or subject to items of faith.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mr. Mouse on May 09, 2022, 12:32:47 PM
Well we know from Inari that the full Hunger doesn't kick in until after the first kill. Connie also may not have a kill(unknown) and now her love with Irwin may prevent full awakening just like Inari.

We know that the Hunger doesn't kick in until the first feeding. Connie proves that it doesn't require the kill. We know that Irwin was Connies first lover so we know she doesn't have a kill. We know that her Hunger is fully active and from the night of orgy it can absorb more lifeforce from Irwin than a vanilla human contains. What Connie doesn't have is the soul scarring from having killed her first lover, something Whamp parents have considered a necessary rite of passage.

What we don't know is if Jim has plans to do much with this info before Harry ends all Hunger. And whether that last will occur after having destroyed the Black Court or before, though I think after.

Harry Dresden, destroyer of all three Western vampire courts (only the Jade remains).
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 09, 2022, 01:26:53 PM
Harry ends World Hunger?

I can see Harry killing the three main vampire courts, the Black is up next Drakul saw to that.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 09, 2022, 01:37:07 PM
Harry ends World Hunger?

I can see Harry killing the three main vampire courts, the Black is up next Drakul saw to that.

 I think it gets complicated as far as the White Court is concerned.  The Hunger Demon is what it is, not unlike a tiger.  Some of the Court members are evil, but others are not, but they are driven by their Hunger.  I don't know how much we can draw on as far as Connie goes, she did feed on a Bigfoot and not a vanilla human, so the first feeding onto death may still hold true, or it could be a matter of education and learning self control. 
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 09, 2022, 02:23:27 PM
My theory is that the Hunger is a perverted form of what the Whamps originally were, we will probably find out Drakul was responsible under one of his previous names for what they are now, thatís the source of the beef between the Blamps and the Whamps.

In killing Drakul it may not end the Black Court, it might forever change the White.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: vincentric on May 09, 2022, 02:31:41 PM
We know that the Hunger doesn't kick in until the first feeding. Connie proves that it doesn't require the kill. We know that Irwin was Connies first lover so we know she doesn't have a kill. We know that her Hunger is fully active and from the night of orgy it can absorb more lifeforce from Irwin than a vanilla human contains. What Connie doesn't have is the soul scarring from having killed her first lover, something Whamp parents have considered a necessary rite of passage.

What we don't know is if Jim has plans to do much with this info before Harry ends all Hunger. And whether that last will occur after having destroyed the Black Court or before, though I think after.

Harry Dresden, destroyer of all three Western vampire courts (only the Jade remains).

Inari had the Hunger when she was locked in the room with Dresden and she fed on him but just with beginning nibbles. Her Hunger never fully awakened when she with her porn star partner because she was in love and didn't feed to a kill.

We don't know if she's a normal human now or like Connie and has partial powers.

And it could be that the special thing about Connie is the pairing with Irwin. Maybe Connie is a normal Whamp just lucky enough to have a partner too powerful for her to kill with a feed who also recovers faster than her Hunger builds.

The Dresdenverse is all about power. Maybe if Harry gets a Mantle that gives him a big power up, he'll be able to handle Lara full-time. But I doubt that could happen before the BAT and then only if Jim decides to sail on that ship.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 09, 2022, 03:19:43 PM
Quote
Inari had the Hunger when she was locked in the room with Dresden and she fed on him but just with beginning nibbles. Her Hunger never fully awakened when she with her porn star partner because she was in love and didn't feed to a kill.

If I remember correctly Inari never fed on Harry at all, not even a nibble.  The reason being Harry understood right away what was happening and he also had no interest of that kind in a young teenage girl nor fatal statutory rape.
Quote
We don't know if she's a normal human now or like Connie and has partial powers.

If her Hunger Demon died, she is just a vanilla human, no powers. 
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mr. Mouse on May 09, 2022, 03:56:44 PM
If I remember correctly Inari never fed on Harry at all, not even a nibble.  The reason being Harry understood right away what was happening and he also had no interest of that kind in a young teenage girl nor fatal statutory rape.
If her Hunger Demon died, she is just a vanilla human, no powers.

Inari stopped with Harry because her lips were burned.
Quote
Her eyes flashed pure and empty white, and her skin began to grow luminous and pearlescent.  I tried to fumble some words out of my mouth, to tell her to stop.  They didn't get past my tingling lips. ... Cold started spreading through me -- delicious, sweet cold that stole warmth and strength even as the pleasure began.

And then the damnedest thing happened.

Inari let out a panicked shriek and staggered back from me. [pp. 154-155 of Blood Rites

That reads like Inari's Hunger was awakened and it was beginning the feeding when the burn shocked Inari out of it.

Piecing the bits from Blood Rites and Bigfoot on Campus together I took it that the lack of knowledge of the Hunger means its first feeding is uncontrolled by the host (you can't control that which you don't know you have to control) and that first killing feed gives the demon a hold on the host it wouldn't otherwise have.

Because of Irwin, Connie has her Hunger awake and intact, but her soul isn't bound by it like those who killed their first lover. She remains an innocent in that way.  Not sure what all the ramifications of that might be. She probably still doesn't know to exert control, or how to control the extent of the feeding. With Irwin she doesn't need to worry about it.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 09, 2022, 05:10:23 PM
Quote
Inari stopped with Harry because her lips were burned.

Which means she didn't get a nibble, that is what gave her a chance to starve out the Hunger.
Quote
Piecing the bits from Blood Rites and Bigfoot on Campus together I took it that the lack of knowledge of the Hunger means its first feeding is uncontrolled by the host (you can't control that which you don't know you have to control) and that first killing feed gives the demon a hold on the host it wouldn't otherwise have.
No, you don't have control, and that is what happened to Thomas, the victim was dead and he was hooked before he knew.. I seem to remember that Lord Raith was very cagey that way, making sure his kids didn't know so when the Hunger awakens they have no control, then it is too late.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Fcrate on May 09, 2022, 06:20:07 PM
 To answer the original question:
It looks like a medieval style marriage, Knight to Lady, as arranged by Mab, the knight's queen. Therefore, there won't be any latex, at least not until a heir is conceived, cementing the relationship between the two nations. That said, it'd be foolish to assume that Mab would let her knight - who she invested quite a few years in shaping, and who commands a significant amount of Winter power- become a slave to anyone (else), even an ally.
In Changes, Lea put the demon part of Susan an Martin to sleep. It's not much of a stretch to say that Mab could teach Harry a similar technique, or at least nudge him to obtain the knowledge for himself. This way they'd be able to consumate their marriage, and everybody wins.
I kinda like Lara and Harry as a match. They've always had a bit of chemistry.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 09, 2022, 06:46:53 PM

I kinda like Lara and Harry as a match. They've always had a bit of chemistry.

Lara prefers biology.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mr. Mouse on May 09, 2022, 07:45:04 PM
Which means she didn't get a nibble, that is what gave her a chance to starve out the Hunger.

Harry feels a "sweet cold that stole warmth and strength" seeping into him and Inari's eyes are full silver. Clearly, that's the Hunger drawing out a bit of his lifeforce in a more obvious fashion than Thomas ever got while he was nibbling his salon clients.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 09, 2022, 08:03:31 PM
Harry feels a "sweet cold that stole warmth and strength" seeping into him and Inari's eyes are full silver. Clearly, that's the Hunger drawing out a bit of his lifeforce in a more obvious fashion than Thomas ever got while he was nibbling his salon clients.

I still don't think so, simply because both Lara and Thomas seemed to think that if she truly loved the guy she went off with there was an excellent chance that the Hunger would be burnt out.  I don't think there would have been a chance if it had even gotten a taste.  I think that fact that her lips blistered so quickly, Harry was protected and she couldn't feed.  I think there is a fine line, yes, in prep for the feeding the vamp gives pleasure, that makes the victim vulnerable.  It was close, but Harry was still fighting her, poor little puppy Mouse was beside himself.. Had he been full grown Inari would have ended up the victim.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: morriswalters on May 09, 2022, 08:22:40 PM
To answer the original question:
It looks like a medieval style marriage, Knight to Lady, as arranged by Mab, the knight's queen. Therefore, there won't be any latex, at least not until a heir is conceived, cementing the relationship between the two nations. That said, it'd be foolish to assume that Mab would let her knight - who she invested quite a few years in shaping, and who commands a significant amount of Winter power- become a slave to anyone (else), even an ally.
In Changes, Lea put the demon part of Susan an Martin to sleep. It's not much of a stretch to say that Mab could teach Harry a similar technique, or at least nudge him to obtain the knowledge for himself. This way they'd be able to consumate their marriage, and everybody wins.
I kinda like Lara and Harry as a match. They've always had a bit of chemistry.
The question was tongue in cheek.  Like a lot of things around here it took on a life of it's own. Which has been kinda fun. Whatever Mab can do Lea is described as the Vampire Muse in one of the books. Butcher is pretty good so if he's on the day he writes it it should be interesting.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mr. Mouse on May 09, 2022, 08:30:33 PM
I still don't think so, simply because both Lara and Thomas seemed to think that if she truly loved the guy she went off with there was an excellent chance that the Hunger would be burnt out.  I don't think there would have been a chance if it had even gotten a taste.  I think that fact that her lips blistered so quickly, Harry was protected and she couldn't feed.  I think there is a fine line, yes, in prep for the feeding the vamp gives pleasure, that makes the victim vulnerable.  It was close, but Harry was still fighting her, poor little puppy Mouse was beside himself.. Had he been full grown Inari would have ended up the victim.

Agreed that the Hunger didn't get fully going, and that allowed Inari to kill it when she and her true love, Gawain Commando finally consummated their relationship.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mr. Mouse on May 09, 2022, 09:18:43 PM
Looking through Bigfoot on Campus again just now, I think by Dresden Files standards Connie and Irwin demonstrate true love for each other, but ... are not triggering the burn response in Connie. Perhaps without the corruption of her soul (and her Hunger) by the death of her first lover she won't ever have that reaction.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on May 09, 2022, 11:35:14 PM
Looking through Bigfoot on Campus again just now, I think by Dresden Files standards Connie and Irwin demonstrate true love for each other, but ... are not triggering the burn response in Connie. Perhaps without the corruption of her soul (and her Hunger) by the death of her first lover she won't ever have that reaction.

Or more likely since her first "victim" was her true love, it simply burned out the Hunger.  If I remember correctly that is what Thomas and Lara were hoping for with Inari.  That is why Lord Raith is such a turd, he explains none of this to his children, puts them in a compromised position when the Hunger is mature enough to begin to feed. Without realizing what is happening to them, they feed until the victim dies.  The Hunger is then strong enough to take over and the parasitic symbiotic relationship begins, the host no longer has the option not to feed. 
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Fcrate on May 10, 2022, 08:49:52 AM
The question was tongue in cheek.  Like a lot of things around here it took on a life of it's own. Which has been kinda fun.
In that case, I'd suggest that Harry picks up a decent supply of Rohypnol. Problem solved :D
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on June 04, 2022, 08:51:13 AM
So, after one year Lara figures out how to get rid of Harry's true love protection.  She probably figures out how to do this within a week after the events in Battle Ground, but for a variety of reasons; that aren't important to this post, she can't implement her plan immediately.  However, it was quite clear in Peace Talks that Harry and Lara like each other.  I mean they like each other beyond simply admiring each others abilities and beyond Lara's White Court mojo to influence Harry.  Mab told Harry that he has a year to accept the union and many things can happen in a year.

Just before the wedding an event; or series of events, created by (fill in the blank bad guy), push Harry and Lara to their limits.  They both end up selflessly risking their lives for each other and both somehow survive.  After this, Lara's plan succeeds and Harry is no longer protected by Murphy's love, but on their wedding night she is still burned when touching Harry because Harry and Lara truly love each other.

It's exactly the kind of thing Jim would do.  Harry remains sexually frustrated.  Lara can't afford to let anyone in the White Court know that she can't feed on Harry.  Harry's closest friends, allies and enemies; plus the White Council, will be absolutely convinced that Harry is completely under Lara's control.  On top of that, to protect Lara from a potential White Court revolt, Harry would play along that Lara controls him; at least while other White Court vamps are around.

Now I know there is the three-way solution that Justine and Thomas used and I suppose that could work for Lara and Harry, but knowing Harry something would go wrong with that plan.

Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: forumghost on June 04, 2022, 10:12:33 AM
As hilarious as watching Lara panic because loving someone is a level of weakness she would never afford herself and watching Harry angst because "what kind of monster am I to love/be loved by someone like Lara"...

I really don't know that it works with the characters as they are. Both are a little to jaded, and there are parts of Lara that I genuinely don't think Harry could ever accept. She's a pretty human monster, but she's still a monster.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on June 04, 2022, 11:34:20 AM
And there are parts of Harry capable of being a monster.

For Rudy his nightmares wear the face of Harry Dresden.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 05, 2022, 04:25:48 AM
  ďI mean, if heís married to another, it canít really be pure love. Jennyís claim on him would prevent the kiss from lifting the spell.Ē

One could argue, based on this, that Harry marrying Lara would similarly annul his protection from Murphy. And conveniently, there's a wedding coming up. Now Jenny is a Sidhe not a Vamp, so it might not be valid to analogise these scenarios. But it is definitely suggestive.

I think the rules are different for the fae than for the whamps.

For the whamps, it's a physical law (or metaphysical I guess!), a plain simple fact of their biology... or bio-energetics... or magical biology... or something like that...

For the fae it's much more about the specifics of any deals and about the letter of the law... specifically, marriage contracts, the oath ("I take thee to be my lawfully wedded wife... forsaking all others...") &c.  An oath like that is enough for a faerie to drive a faerie-law Crawler-Transporter through!   (if you dunno the C-T, see here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zChTY_VVOKc   and check from 6second mark onward (for scale), where a shipping-container in the foreground enters the frame from the left side)
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 05, 2022, 04:35:29 AM
I still don't think so, simply because both Lara and Thomas seemed to think that if she truly loved the guy she went off with there was an excellent chance that the Hunger would be burnt out.  I don't think there would have been a chance if it had even gotten a taste.

I think we are dealing with extreme/unusual corner-cases here... maybe even Jim hasn't considered all of these odd nooks and crannies of the Dresdenverse!

That said, I don't think a "taste" could have protected a White's Hunger-Demon from a first full feeding from a beloved; the Hunger would have died, burnt-out... but AFAIK there's no WoJ clarifying, and the DV canon doesn't speak clearly to this corner.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 05, 2022, 04:52:43 AM
...
Just before the wedding an event; or series of events, created by (fill in the blank bad guy), push Harry and Lara to their limits.  They both end up selflessly risking their lives for each other and both somehow survive.  After this, Lara's plan succeeds and Harry is no longer protected by Murphy's love, but on their wedding night she is still burned when touching Harry because Harry and Lara truly love each other.

It's exactly the kind of thing Jim would do.  Harry remains sexually frustrated.  Lara can't afford to let anyone in the White Court know that she can't feed on Harry.  Harry's closest friends, allies and enemies; plus the White Council, will be absolutely convinced that Harry is completely under Lara's control.  On top of that, to protect Lara from a potential White Court revolt, Harry would play along that Lara controls him; at least while other White Court vamps are around ...

That is terrible.  And you're right, it is the kind of thing Jim would do to Harry!

But...

... I really don't know that it works with the characters as they are. Both are a little to jaded, and there are parts of Lara that I genuinely don't think Harry could ever accept. She's a pretty human monster, but she's still a monster.
I think this is correct.  Lara is too accepting of her monstrosity, Harry is still fighting too much against monsters.

But, turnabout again... we know Lara does have really good elements in her -- love of family, personal honor, etc.  I suspect she wistfully wishes she weren't a monster; I think she enjoys vicariously that Thomas experiences True Love, and has found a way to feed without murdering; I think she admires Harry's Fighting the Good Fight choices.  She just thinks they are hopelessly naive.  She thinks that the only way they even survive is because she is in charge of the Whamps, with her "soft power" policies and protection of them.

IF it turned out that Harry could show her a way to operate at highest whamp levels of personal power/magic/energy and at top-tier of Whamp politics (yet still following the moral path that Thomas and Harry forged)... she might be made a genuine "good guy(gal)" instead of being just an "enemy of my enemy."

It would kind of echo the Harry-redeems-Lash story-arc, however, and I don't know Jim would do that.

... Now I know there is the three-way solution that Justine and Thomas used and I suppose that could work for Lara and Harry, but knowing Harry something would go wrong with that plan.
  I'm also pretty sure Jim isn't going to suddenly give Harry an incredible overload of hot sex with multiple partners.  That... isn't quite Jim's M.O. when dealing with Harry!
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 05, 2022, 05:13:01 AM
... What we don't know is if Jim has plans to do much with this info before Harry ends all Hunger. And whether that last will occur after having destroyed the Black Court or before, though I think after.

Harry Dresden, destroyer of all three Western vampire courts (only the Jade remains).

Do we have any WoJ that Dresden gets to eliminate all 3 Courts of vamp, or end all Hunger?  Or is that just WAGish fantheory?  We know how much he hates the Blampires, and if he still has access to Kemmler's Word he might even be able to do something about that...

I've seen the theory that he might get access to Raith-Senior's magical library, which is apparently Something Special; that might give him insight into a Whamp-wide weakness.


Also, as a minor issue: WOJ is there are actually seven Vampire Courts (Ramp/Whamp/Blamp, Jade + 3 more afaik un-named (and miniscule in scope/power)).
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: LostInTime on June 06, 2022, 10:36:21 AM
Jim has said no more surprise kids of Harry. But the expectation of this marriage is a planned child. So, is Harry going to have a Whamp child? And how much more will it break Eb's heart to have a whamp grandchild and a whamp great-grandchild?
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 06, 2022, 01:44:50 PM
Jim has said no more surprise kids of Harry. But the expectation of this marriage is a planned child. So, is Harry going to have a Whamp child? And how much more will it break Eb's heart to have a whamp grandchild and a whamp great-grandchild?

Oh I hope not, and I hope this whole "marriage" idea goes the way of the Carrier Pigeon. There are enough loose ends already and why dilute the story further with this?  Eb is already upset about Thomas, so what is the point of making him more upset if we have no clue as to why? It distracts further from what is supposed to be the main story line. 

Oh and one more thing, though I get that they aren't blood related, but since Lara is the sister of Thomas, so in effect Harry is being asked to marry his sister..
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: morriswalters on June 06, 2022, 04:28:40 PM
First, a baby doesn't seem to be the purpose. When Mab turns down Harry's suggestion the she marry Lara, Mab doesn't cite the inability to produce a child as a reason, rather she says choices she made as a mortal made the match incompatible. She then says this was what the Knight was designed for.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 06, 2022, 05:31:55 PM
First, a baby doesn't seem to be the purpose. When Mab turns down Harry's suggestion the she marry Lara, Mab doesn't cite the inability to produce a child as a reason, rather she says choices she made as a mortal made the match incompatible. She then says this was what the Knight was designed for.

My point is, what is the point?  There already is an alliance between the White Court and the Winter Court, no need for a marriage.. Marriage isn't needed to produce a baby, and was Lord Raith married to all the mothers of his children?  Something else is going on, I think Mab is looking for someone who might be able to control Harry better than she can.  Or you can nix all of that, in my opinion it is just another sideshow we can do without..
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Arjan on June 06, 2022, 06:36:13 PM
First, a baby doesn't seem to be the purpose. When Mab turns down Harry's suggestion the she marry Lara, Mab doesn't cite the inability to produce a child as a reason, rather she says choices she made as a mortal made the match incompatible. She then says this was what the Knight was designed for.
Her choice to become female 😀

You know how Mab is with words.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: morriswalters on June 06, 2022, 07:10:12 PM
Her choice to become female 😀

You know how Mab is with words.
;)
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Regenbogen on June 06, 2022, 08:26:50 PM
My point is, what is the point?  There already is an alliance between the White Court and the Winter Court, no need for a marriage.. Marriage isn't needed to produce a baby, and was Lord Raith married to all the mothers of his children?  Something else is going on, I think Mab is looking for someone who might be able to control Harry better than she can.  Or you can nix all of that, in my opinion it is just another sideshow we can do without..

I am getting the impression, this isn't about Harry or controlling Harry or putting Molly in her place or whatever.
I am starting to think, that this is about LARA!
Putting Harry in a place where HE can control Lara and not Mab or Lara controlling him.
See, there was the fact that Justine/known host for Nemesis was for a very long time very close to Lara and her Court. Close enough to manipulate and possibly take control.
There was Lord Raith presumably in a pact with at least one Outsider (summoned HHWB in Blood Rites).
Thomas has been influenced by Justinemesis to attack the swartalf king.
Can Mab trust Lara under these circumstances?

Who would be better suited to put in a place in which Lara is bound to him by a marriage contract and vows than the infamous Winter Knight/wizard/Starborn known defeater of mind controllers Harry Dresden?
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Avernite on June 06, 2022, 09:30:05 PM
I am getting the impression, this isn't about Harry or controlling Harry or putting Molly in her place or whatever.
I am starting to think, that this is about LARA!
Putting Harry in a place where HE can control Lara and not Mab or Lara controlling him.
See, there was the fact that Justine/known host for Nemesis was for a very long time very close to Lara and her Court. Close enough to manipulate and possibly take control.
There was Lord Raith presumably in a pact with at least one Outsider (summoned HHWB in Blood Rites).
Thomas has been influenced by Justinemesis to attack the swartalf king.
Can Mab trust Lara under these circumstances?

Who would be better suited to put in a place in which Lara is bound to him by a marriage contract and vows than the infamous Winter Knight/wizard/Starborn known defeater of mind controllers Harry Dresden?

Or it is about punishment. Lara did send Mab a calculated insult by imprisoning tiny faeries during White Night. Harry resolved the issue, but he did not punish Lara. And what better way to punish Lara than making her obligated to protect Harry and live through the general mayhem that is 'anywhere close to Harry Dresden'.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 06, 2022, 11:16:53 PM
My point is, what is the point?  There already is an alliance between the White Court and the Winter Court, no need for a marriage...
Marriage -- old-school, arranged marriage between nobles -- is almost always political.  It's usually about taking an "alliance" and making it even closer, but sometimes about ending a war, or defusing a tense situation; also sometimes about getting rid of a problem-at-home by exporting them to the other court; or installing a loyal-to-you agent high within the other court; etc.

Mab works on just a single level of planning/intention about never, so I'm certain there's more to it than that.  But I'm certain that's part of it!

... I think Mab is looking for someone who might be able to control Harry better than she can...
I'm pretty sure Mab isn't interested in anybody who can "control (her Winter Knight) better than she can" (I think the idea would horrify her).

And I suspect Mab knows that Lara isn't the whamp for the job (Thomas is a *far* better lever upon Harry).

WE know Lara can't take Harry from how Harry basically let Lara "take her best shot" in the Raith Deeps, and not only did Harry not succumb... he maintained the focus and willpower to form magic -- on the fly -- that was both incredibly-powerful and pretty nuanced (with the hard outer sphere and layers of padding inside).

I bet Mab knows this, too.

... in my opinion it is just another sideshow we can do without.
I don't expect this wedding is coming to fruition.  It is, as you say, a "sideshow," but it's a Harry-distracting, Harry-tormenting sideshow, and those are very much in the Dresden Files tradition.

(It's also worth noting, here:  Jim himself is coming off his second divorce; this may influence marriage-related plotlines.  (Similarly, I'm pretty sure we know WAY more about LKH's love-life & taste in men, courtesy of Anita & Merry, than many of us want to know (she certainly told us she was bi & poly before she "revealed" her bi/poly 3rd)))

...
I am starting to think, that this is about LARA!
Putting Harry in a place where HE can control Lara and not Mab or Lara controlling him.

This seems like a valid notion; or perhaps -- if not to overtly "control" Lara -- it's just about sending her (Starborn, Outsider-hating) WK into the Whamp Court to "investigate" her suspicions.  Or just enact a "patented Harry-Dresden anarchygasm" and see what comes to light.  But yes; I think it's about (or at least more about) Lara & the Whamps, rather than about Harry.

I am getting the impression, this isn't about Harry or controlling Harry or putting Molly in her place or whatever.

Say rather (see above, "Mab works on just a single level of planning/intention about never") this isn't just about those things.

And I think she plans on this to just... "ablate" Molly's love, a bit.
She has the coldness of the Winter mantle acting on her...
She saw Harry getting intimate with Murphy...
Now Harry's engaged to Lara...
All of these things can have an impact on Molly's love.  Mab I think sees any affection as a weakness, a vulnerability to exploit; and love the greatest of all.  She hopes to wean the Winter Lady of such weakness.  First, Harry; then the Carpenters.

I do not think she'll succeed, because she doesn't really understand these things anymore; in particular, she no longer remembers the strength that liking and loving can bring.

But I think her plans lay in that direction.

Harry, I think... she's throwing problems & challenges at him.  A conflict is coming, and she is tempering him as a weapon.  She wants him stronger, more flexible, more keen-edged.  Also, I think she's laying other & deeper plans against him, stiffer challenges, etc... this one she hopes will keep him more engaged, so he doesn't see the next one coming.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: morriswalters on June 07, 2022, 01:01:02 AM
Lara's looking for cover, she's frightened.  Mab's taking advantage of that to put her Knight in the White Court. Lara's been attacked twice counting White Knight and Nemesis got in close. So in that sense it's political.  But the crown doesn't pass though linage for either the Winter Court or the White Court so a baby would be worthless.

Besides you just know there will be coitus interruptus as Harry gets snatched to Mirror Mirror.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: forumghost on June 07, 2022, 01:32:49 AM
I'd expect Marriagus Interruptus myself, so that Harry has to deal with the fallout of both seemingly embarrassing Mab by bailing at the last second, and the fallout of seemingly leaving Lara freaking Raith at the Altar.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Arjan on June 07, 2022, 03:33:54 PM
Lara's looking for cover, she's frightened.  Mab's taking advantage of that to put her Knight in the White Court. Lara's been attacked twice counting White Knight and Nemesis got in close. So in that sense it's political.  But the crown doesn't pass though linage for either the Winter Court or the White Court so a baby would be worthless.

Besides you just know there will be coitus interruptus as Harry gets snatched to Mirror Mirror.
For Lara a baby would be a great potential asset. A child of Harry and her would likely be a very powerful vampire and if she can raise the baby according to her wishes she can use the child like she was used by her father. There are some risks involved but the potential power upgrade for her white court is big. Also she and her hunger might just want to reproduce. It is a common drive.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 07, 2022, 03:45:47 PM
For Lara a baby would be a great potential asset. A child of Harry and her would likely be a very powerful vampire and if she can raise the baby according to her wishes she can use the child like she was used by her father. There are some risks involved but the potential power upgrade for her white court is big. Also she and her hunger might just want to reproduce. It is a common drive.

All she needs is a sperm donor for that..  Any Tom, Dick, or Harry will do for that.. ::)
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 07, 2022, 04:58:48 PM
... A child of Harry and her would likely be a very powerful vampire ...
I don't think so.  The Dresdenverse's "Salic Law" (that magic tends to follow the maternal bloodline) suggests Harry is no more likely to sire a "magically powerful" child than anyone else is.

OTOH, wizards are hardly known for their advanced scientific studies, and their traditional lore (including the Salic Law) may have some validity, but still only be a part of the story.  After all, WoJ says (iirc) that McCoy's wife was a plain-vanilla mortal, yet her daughter was Margaret Gwendolyn (LeFay) McCoy, a very strong wizard in her own right.

... Also she and her hunger might just want to reproduce. It is a common drive.
I don't think we know anything about the drives of a Whamp hunger, other than the Hunger itself.

But since they only seem to exist inside a human host, they don't need their own reproductive drive:  they can just "piggyback" on humans' (rather profligate) drive.  Given the impact Justine's news had on Thomas, I think we can take it that the desire for children is as strong in Whamps as humans (maybe stronger, since it seems that being a Whampire cuts fertility sharply, and thus can leave the drive with longing & frustration.)
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Arjan on June 08, 2022, 12:27:31 AM
All she needs is a sperm donor for that..  Any Tom, Dick, or Harry will do for that.. ::)
Seems logical that you improve your chances with a magical parent. Also you might get a wizard vampire combination.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 08, 2022, 10:58:58 AM
Seems logical that you improve your chances with a magical parent. Also you might get a wizard vampire combination.

But was Lara's mother a wizard? Aside from Thomas, who of Lord Raith's children's mothers were wizards?  What percent of the White Court for that matter? And wouldn't the same risks apply to Lara as any other vamp mom?  Which if Thomas is to be believed from what he told Harry back in Peace Talks is considerable. Also Lara could very well be sterile if Thomas is to be believed.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Arjan on June 08, 2022, 01:20:53 PM
But was Lara's mother a wizard? Aside from Thomas, who of Lord Raith's children's mothers were wizards?  What percent of the White Court for that matter? And wouldn't the same risks apply to Lara as any other vamp mom?  Which if Thomas is to be believed from what he told Harry back in Peace Talks is considerable. Also Lara could very well be sterile if Thomas is to be believed.
Thomas father was a vampire and his mother a wizard. Thomas is both.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 08, 2022, 01:46:57 PM
Thomas father was a vampire and his mother a wizard. Thomas is both.

Thomas is no wizard.  What I am talking about is the fetus Hunger eating it's host's body.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 08, 2022, 04:49:50 PM
Thomas is no wizard ...

Thomas has a very-small magical talent; not nil, but definitely not "wizard" caliber.  What Harry has called (in other contexts, describing mortals not whamps) a "minor talent" or a "have-not of the magical world."

I *think* there is WoJ on the [vamp X wizard] thing, stating that whamps aren't capable of White-Council levels of magic.
 
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 08, 2022, 05:34:16 PM
Thomas has a very-small magical talent; not nil, but definitely not "wizard" caliber.  What Harry has called (in other contexts, describing mortals not whamps) a "minor talent" or a "have-not of the magical world."

I *think* there is WoJ on the [vamp X wizard] thing, stating that whamps aren't capable of White-Council levels of magic.

I seem to remember Thomas saying as he was attempting a tracking spell that Harry had taught him, that he has about the same amount of magical talent as most vanilla humans.  That Harry had told him all humans have some talent, so doing the low level spell was possible.  I think though not sure because magical circles may work differently, but another example would be Butters in Dead Beat, drawing the circle and sitting inside it for protection so he could keep drumming to keep Sue going.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Arjan on June 08, 2022, 08:11:15 PM
That is because Thomas was lazy. His vampire talent was another road to power. I remember Jim said something about white court wizards about doing things with their hunger.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 08, 2022, 09:08:41 PM
That is because Thomas was lazy. His vampire talent was another road to power. I remember Jim said something about white court wizards about doing things with their hunger.

 There is no evidence that Thomas is lazy.. Even if he were, talent is talent, Harry used to go on and on in the earlier books as to how lazy he is, yet he is a very powerful and dangerous wizard.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Arjan on June 09, 2022, 02:57:07 AM
There is no evidence that Thomas is lazy.. Even if he were, talent is talent, Harry used to go on and on in the earlier books as to how lazy he is, yet he is a very powerful and dangerous wizard.
There was a woj somewhere about it. Thomas got his wizard talent from his  mother but did not put the effort in it needed to develop it more.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 09, 2022, 04:35:16 AM
We seem to recollect different things in WoJ's.
Maybe Jim has rectcon'ed the Dresdenverse ...
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 09, 2022, 10:34:53 AM
There was a woj somewhere about it. Thomas got his wizard talent from his  mother but did not put the effort in it needed to develop it more.
That isn't evidence, until you produce it.. So all we have is what Thomas himself said.  Also what underscores this, though I get he'd feel threatened by a wizard son, I doubt that Lord Raith would leave magical talent unexploited. 
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Arjan on June 09, 2022, 05:58:14 PM
That isn't evidence, until you produce it.. So all we have is what Thomas himself said.  Also what underscores this, though I get he'd feel threatened by a wizard son, I doubt that Lord Raith would leave magical talent unexploited.
I think he wanted a wizard daughter. With his peculiarities a son was bad luck.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 09, 2022, 07:15:36 PM
I think he wanted a wizard daughter. With his peculiarities a son was bad luck.
He may have, but that isn't what he got, not even a son with wizard level talent.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 09, 2022, 11:22:32 PM
I seem to remember Thomas saying as he was attempting a tracking spell that Harry had taught him, that he has about the same amount of magical talent as most vanilla humans.  That Harry had told him all humans have some talent, so doing the low level spell was possible.  I think though not sure because magical circles may work differently, but another example would be Butters in Dead Beat, drawing the circle and sitting inside it for protection so he could keep drumming to keep Sue going.

I think Harry was lying to Thomas, saying "all humans have some talent, so doing the low level spell was possible."  I think that was just a pep-talk, a confidence-booster.  Because having the confidence it will work is a key component of successful casting.

We've seen some ritual magic described as like a "magical vending machine," no talent needed.  Put in the coin & push the button, out pops the reward.  I think magic circles are *exactly* that sort of ritual... but tracking-spells are not.
 
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 10, 2022, 05:09:57 AM
I think Harry was lying to Thomas, saying "all humans have some talent, so doing the low level spell was possible."  I think that was just a pep-talk, a confidence-booster.  Because having the confidence it will work is a key component of successful casting.

We've seen some ritual magic described as like a "magical vending machine," no talent needed.  Put in the coin & push the button, out pops the reward.  I think magic circles are *exactly* that sort of ritual... but tracking-spells are not.

I don't think so, the reason I don't think so is especially when wizards and warlocks are kids, at some point their talent becomes clear.  No training needed, it was true for Harry,Molly, Charity, the Korean Kid, I could go on, but the point is, it appears.  It is a theme that repeats itself in the series, if left to itself it gets misused by an experimenting kid who unless taken up and trained early becomes a warlock. Charity was at that point until she met Michael, then she let her talent fade.. So what I am trying to say is if it had shown up in Thomas, I doubt he would have or could have hid it or not tried to use it, or would have known to do either.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 10, 2022, 03:24:43 PM
I don't think so, the reason I don't think so is especially when wizards and warlocks are kids, at some point their talent becomes clear.  No training needed, it was true for Harry,Molly, Charity, the Korean Kid, I could go on, but the point is, it appears.  It is a theme that repeats itself in the series, if left to itself it gets misused by an experimenting kid who unless taken up and trained early becomes a warlock. Charity was at that point until she met Michael, then she let her talent fade.. So what I am trying to say is if it had shown up in Thomas, I doubt he would have or could have hid it or not tried to use it, or would have known to do either.
I think that's for the strong talents, the ones at-or-near being White Council caliber.

It may still show up in the weaker kids... but much less clearly/obviously.  As Dresden says about ... Abbie(?), the woman with the small dog & "Cassandra's Tears," it is usually mistaken for something else.  Charity's own case is I think typical:  she just looked to her parents & other "experts" like a typical "troubled teen."  It wasn't until she hooked up with the coven that she got recognition / confirmation that she wasn't crazy, but actually had magic.

And puberty -- when magic often begins to come in -- is also when horniness & thus Whampiness begins to manifest.  I expect Thomas was well-equipped with "cover" that hid any minor talent beginning to manifest.

And frankly, only his dad was likely on the lookout for signs of it; and his dad wasn't likely to give him any hints or help about any powerup!
 
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 10, 2022, 06:48:57 PM
Quote
And puberty -- when magic often begins to come in -- is also when horniness & thus Whampiness begins to manifest.  I expect Thomas was well-equipped with "cover" that hid any minor talent beginning to manifest.

Or it makes sense that he'd be too "hungry,"Horny, and confused to do so.  Also like any other kid in his position, he wouldn't know he needed to hide it... So while Thomas may have some talent, it is so
mild that it is hardly worth mentioning.  Or would have faded from lack of use, because he'd have no need to use it.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: BrainFireBob on June 10, 2022, 08:29:27 PM
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/

Unverified WoJ from the 2011 Naperville signing:
ĎAre there White Court vampire wizards?í
Yes, there are. Thomas is middle-of-the-road in power and [ed: think Iím remembering this correctly] the strongest donít get as strong as mortal wizards [/ed], but they can pull off some strong tricks with their Hunger.
2015 Grid Daily interview


This prompted my personal theory that the Hunger sustains itself by being parasitic on their talent- meaning White Court fertility would be matched to that of humans if only the talented (Paranet level, at least) could have children. Recalling that magic is a force of life generated by strong emotions, and the White Court feeds on emotions, they could simply be replacing what they lost- similar to the mechanism described for the antagonist by Barbara Hambly in her Dragonsbane, which I'm pretty sure, given our relative ages, Jim read.

This would mean that White Court practitioners are  those with "excess" talent after "displacement" by the parasite- so never as strong as mortal wizards, because without their parasite they'd be mortal wizards. It would also imply that elder White Court vampires may know that practitioners are the way to prop their numbers- and therefore why the Skavis plan was never tried before, it'd be suicide.

That's my theory. The WoJ is above, along with where I found it. There's a sidebar about this in the RPG book too, as I recall- the idea that they can super-charge certain spells with their Hunger demon- but I never paid attention to their mechanisms.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 10, 2022, 09:19:29 PM
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/

Unverified WoJ from the 2011 Naperville signing:
ĎAre there White Court vampire wizards?í
Yes, there are. Thomas is middle-of-the-road in power and [ed: think Iím remembering this correctly] the strongest donít get as strong as mortal wizards [/ed], but they can pull off some strong tricks with their Hunger.
2015 Grid Daily interview

... It would also imply that elder White Court vampires may know that practitioners are the way to prop their numbers- and therefore why the Skavis plan was never tried before, it'd be suicide. 
That seems odd, in that apparently Lara was behind this move, and she presumably has acccess to everything pere Raith knows, and to the (in)famous Raith library.

OTOH, I wouldn't put it past her to set it up with the intention it would fail, knowing that when the "herd-cull" got to Chicago (and involved Thomas & Harry) the plan would be ended with extreme prejudice (and (with any luck whatsoever!) ancillary damage to houses Skavis, Malvora, & any others among her whamp enemies).  So, maybe not so odd...

Maybe.  It seems like a horribly existential risk to take, since (once the plot was launched) her ability to guide it was minimal; what if they'd moved to Europe, or stayed bi-coastal & avoided the midwest, etc?  What if they hadn't gotten sloppy-enough to get noticed, just blew through Chi-town before Dresden (or Thomas) picked up the scent?  Lara being suicidal seems really out of character!

Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: BrainFireBob on June 10, 2022, 09:51:14 PM
That seems odd, in that apparently Lara was behind this move, and she presumably has acccess to everything pere Raith knows, and to the (in)famous Raith library.

OTOH, I wouldn't put it past her to set it up with the intention it would fail, knowing that when the "herd-cull" got to Chicago (and involved Thomas & Harry) the plan would be ended with extreme prejudice (and (with any luck whatsoever!) ancillary damage to houses Skavis, Malvora, & any others among her whamp enemies).  So, maybe not so odd...

Maybe.  It seems like a horribly existential risk to take, since (once the plot was launched) her ability to guide it was minimal; what if they'd moved to Europe, or stayed bi-coastal & avoided the midwest, etc?  What if they hadn't gotten sloppy-enough to get noticed, just blew through Chi-town before Dresden (or Thomas) picked up the scent?  Lara being suicidal seems really out of character!

Depends on relative house size and rivalries. If Lara got the young Skavis heir to start doing this, she encourages the other elder Whamps in other houses to- however reluctantly- move against Skavis. If Skavis is her only really serious rival, then it's worth the risk.

It's an idea, but Lara's a risk-taker and a gambler; more bold than is normal for White Court.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Fcrate on June 10, 2022, 10:02:54 PM
Didn't one of Lara's sisters signal their support troops at Demonreach with magic? It was always my view that whamps could use some limited forms of magic, equal or less than a mid level sorcerer.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Arjan on June 11, 2022, 11:22:11 AM
Didn't one of Lara's sisters signal their support troops at Demonreach with magic? It was always my view that whamps could use some limited forms of magic, equal or less than a mid level sorcerer.
I think magic and whomp powers can sometimes get similar results but they are different things. Vampires are far more specialised. I think an added wizard talent will give more options.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 11, 2022, 02:38:08 PM
I think magic and whomp powers can sometimes get similar results but they are different things. Vampires are far more specialised. I think an added wizard talent will give more options.

Which might be part of the bargain Lord Raith made because he seems to have magical powers.. But it might have been those very powers that Margaret turned against him in her death curse.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Ed0517 on June 18, 2022, 08:17:27 AM
Ah, the wedding. WHOLE LOT of Wamps all tgoether, politically needed...

...if Mab is peeved at the WC for something....

red wedding?
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: g33k on June 18, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
Ah, the wedding. WHOLE LOT of Wamps all tgoether, politically needed...

...if Mab is peeved at the WC for something....

red wedding?

This will be the first big Whamp shindig (AFAIK) since the debacle at the Raith Deeps... where Skavis and Malvora got most of their top ranks wiped out; they're fringe players now, I think.  The Raiths own the White Court now, until another House gets some of their mid-tier powers older & more puissant (and simply fill out their numbers a bit!  They don't have enough members to implement credible schemes & threats)  IIRC, whamp's can't breed very fast (and terror/despair are hardly the reproduction-enhancing emotions for feeding that lust is!).

I don't think Mab has any grudge against the Raiths; if she did, she likely wouldn't be ordering her Knight to marry a princess of Raith... and that's doing them an honor.

It's very possible that she suspects (or even knows with surety) Nemfected Justine has put some further Outsider-mischief in place among the Raiths, and  that  is her objective (or rather, one of her objectives).
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Basil on June 22, 2022, 04:55:02 PM
My reading of the end of Battleground is that Harry and Lara (and Molly) agreed to the marriage and the year's wait simply as a means of buying time.

I can easily envision a scenario where Harry and/or Lara object given the inability of safely consumating the marriage.  I wonder then if Mab will intervene by making it so that Lara and Harry can have "normal relations." 

After all, the Leansidhe was able to quell Susan's hunger and Mother Winter offered Harry an "unravelling," that could have cleansed Susan.  Since the White's "parasite," seems to be more separate from the host than the Red's "hunger," I imagine it might be easier for Mab to quell it situationally. 
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Mira on June 22, 2022, 06:31:02 PM
Quote
My reading of the end of Battleground is that Harry and Lara (and Molly) agreed to the marriage and the year's wait simply as a means of buying time.

I wouldn't say they agreed. Putting it off a year for Harry to mourn was as much a stall tactic as anything.  Molly wasn't happy at all about it, Harry understands where Mab is coming from, but he isn't happy about it either.  I don't even think Lara is happy about it.  I'd have to go back and reread the conversation Harry and Molly had in her limo at the end of the book, but if there is a way out of it, it looks like the two of then are going to try and find it.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: Ed0517 on June 23, 2022, 12:27:22 AM

After all, the Leansidhe was able to quell Susan's hunger and Mother Winter offered Harry an "unravelling," that could have cleansed Susan.  Since the White's "parasite," seems to be more separate from the host than the Red's "hunger," I imagine it might be easier for Mab to quell it situationally.

I am not saying Mab CAN'T, but Mother Winter is (at least ) an order of magnitude above Mab. She's close to Uriel level. I would not judge what Mab can do by what MW can.
Title: Re: Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?
Post by: forumghost on June 23, 2022, 07:08:35 AM
I mean we know from WoJ that Mab can straight-up rip the hunger out of a Wampire (though she'd be to brutal to leave much of the fleshbag part intact) so she could probably put one to sleep yeah.

Though I'm not sure if she'd bother. She might just go:

"I've made it clear to Miss Raith the consequence of her outright eating you Wizard, if you are so weak that you can't handle her taking a little off the top then you're obviously too weak to be of any further use to me. Are you telling me that?"