Cowl

[Yuillegan]

We might be confused about what the other is saying and what is posed as an example of impossibility.

I agree.

I said cowl and Kumori found out during dead beat on their own without help from Justin, Kemmler, Simon or Elaine because of their surveillance.

Do you have any proof of this or is this just speculation, just a theory you have? If you have evidence please tell us, and if it is just a theory I think you need a bit more to it to make it credible. It's certainly possible that this is true, but as far as I am aware there is no proof.

He did not know before dead beat and he did not learn it from any dead person. Or at least a dead person telling him was not necessary for him to know. That was all I was saying

It seems the discovery of the Word of Kemmler was the catalyst for the Heirs coming to Chicago. However I do think it's interesting the timing of the rediscovery. Perhaps someone intentionally released it...But again, it's all conjecture. You don't know that Cowl didn't know before Dead Beat, and you don't know that a dead person didn't tell him.

Not to busy to notice, he noticed it because of his surveillance. And then of course he waited for the right moment to act. Being busy was just one of the factors.

That doesn't make sense. The right moment to act would have been while Harry was not guarding the skull. And what else was Cowl busy with apart from tailing Harry?

I personally miss a lot but if someone poses a far fetching theory like Cowl is Kemmler who was Justin a bit of foreshadowing to support it is not an unreasonable thing to expect.

I don't disagree. Any and all theories should be supported with some degree of evidence from the text or other outside sources. Especially the more far-fetched ones. I personally don't believe Cowl = Justin = Kemmler. But Justin and Kemmler being dead or supposedly dead is the least problematic part of any theory involving either of them, or Simon for that matter.

There are several woj telling the council was really thoroughly when they killed Kemmler the last time and some of them certainly knew what they were doing. I remember him talking about (magical) fire and spirits, they are not invulnerable.

Jim does lie sometimes in his WOJ, so on it's own it's not always enough. The Council could also be wrong, it certainly wouldn't be impossible to fake. The Council's own arrogance would make it all the more easy. But even if they did properly kill Kemmler's body and release him from the mortal coil that still doesn't stop him from coming back from beyond the grave, or even acting from beyond the grave whether as a ghost, or ghost-soul (like Corpsetaker), or just a soul acting from whatever afterlife Kemmler went to. Not to mention if he somehow ended up Outside. Spirits may not be invulnerable but souls are not the same thing. There is some deep exposition Jim goes into in some panels, but even in the books that's discussed a bit.

And Lea knew about sir Stuart. They live in both worlds. The destruction of Kemmler was in important event, she would have watched it. She would have seen Kemmler’s spirit moving around as easily as we would have seen his body. Also Kemmler would have been a big disruption in the spirit world I think Mab would have been aware. By this time his disciples would have been aware and Kemmler would have done something big. He was not pensioning off or so.

I get that Mab can see both the mortal and spirit world at once, being of two worlds. Assuming she was actually present at Kemmler's last stand in 1961, she may well have seen him leave the mortal realm. It still doesn't preclude him from returning in some way. Don't know how big of a spiritual ripple his death would have been. Even as a fairly powerful mortal wizard...he wasn't a god. Not sure what you mean by "pensioning off".

And yes if Jim really wants to he can bring back anyone he likes. Sometimes it just asks for really, really, really exceptional writing to pull it off.

And Jim is a pretty exceptional writer. But it hardly takes all that exceptional writing to actually do. Simple as writing it down. Much harder to make it work in the story of course. But I wouldn't say the return of Malcolm or Margaret was exceptional writing either. I enjoyed the passages, but they are not literary masterpieces either. Corpsetaker was by far the most interesting, and I feel Jim had been waiting for that for a while. Kemmler's on-screen appearance by comparison was fairly lacklustre.

Actually that was smart. The Fomor were much stronger under water and she let them attack on grounds she prepared. A preemptive attack would probably have been a disaster. As Marcone said Ethniu threw away her surprise as well. She was just too arrogant and Mab used that optimally.
But I am not saying she knows everything, I am saying she was in a good position to know about Kemmler’s ultimate fate and was clearly interested.

We're not discussing tactics though, we are discussing Mab's foreknowledge. And it's clear she didn't know what the Fomor were about to do. But like Vadderung, she is always preparing to be assaulted even if she doesn't yet know. But her enemies plan ahead to, which means sometimes she gets caught out. That's strategy for you.

And while her tactics were good and worked out, I would argue without Harry they all would have fallen. If she had known the Fomor were coming earlier she could have prepared a far better trap, or even sent assassins and agents to cripple the Fomor before they begun - which is what every spy agency in the world does.

Mab has been fooled by mortals and immortals alike. There is a certain Wizard in Chicago who keeps doing that...if only I could remember his name.

Mab was probably the one who fixed little Chicago and she was certainly the one who made sure Harry consulted Bob in cold days. Bob is too scared, Mab knows exactly where he is but she won’t act on it. Certainly not when Bob is indirectly serving her.

Maybe she did, maybe not. The little Chicago thing is whole other topic. How do you know Mab knew exactly where Bob is hiding, or that she knew Harry would use him? Is this another theory? As far as I am aware Bob has hidden pretty well from Mab. If she knew exactly why has she waited so long to pick him up.

But also unhinged. By now he would have done something big and he would have called upon his disciples to help him.

Would he have really? He spent decades hiding at a time between his apparent deaths? Why get killed again?  And who says he hasn't done something big? Maybe he is responsible for the Black Council? Maybe he is Cowl and did try something big? We just don't know.

She knows the difference. She would have monitored him after he was dead until he was gone. More easily after he was dead.

Does she know more about death than the most notorious necromancer? And you're still acting like it's fact she was at Kemmler's last stand in '61, which hasn't been stated anywhere. Even if any of that were true, for the final time, it still wouldn't preclude him from acting from beyond the grave - death is not the end.[/b]

[morriswalters]

There's a plot hole in all this if you assume Bob was found by accident. Cowl and everybody else does all this work to prep for the Darkhallow, but the Word of Kemmler isn't found until late in the game, well after the ritual is started. They wasted a lot of effort if no one had found the book, and everybody, but Cowl and Kumori, asks about the Word Of Kemmler. All Cowl does is ask for the Die Lied der Erlking, which he doesn't need since Peabody is a fellow Traveler. Either Cowl knew about Bob or he is an incredible optimist. It reads as if Cowl was just trying to keep anyone else from being able to do the Darkhallow.

That doesn't make sense. The right moment to act would have been while Harry was not guarding the skull. And what else was Cowl busy with apart from tailing Harry?

Waiting for Harry to summon the Erlking.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

You are working on the assumption that the bad guys are all working together and don’t have their own personal grudges and ambitions, and that the Peabody who wrote der Erlking is in fact the Peabody killed by Morgan.

If the Black Council/Cowl/Kemmler have been replacing certain wizards with their own, then Peabody was swapped between writing der Erlking and his first appearance in the Files (80 odd years?) he wouldn’t have the personal knowledge of the rite of Summoning and the bad guys would need the book, or Bob (I can’t remember if he went over der Erlking with Harry).

It would be kind of ironic if the Black Council killed the one man with personal knowledge of the ritual which they then needed decades later. They have to then hunt for the book.

Remember the Black Council have been running infiltration long term.

[morriswalters]

You are working on the assumption that the bad guys are all working together and don’t have their own personal grudges and ambitions, and that the Peabody who wrote der Erlking is in fact the Peabody killed by Morgan.

If the Black Council/Cowl/Kemmler have been replacing certain wizards with their own, then Peabody was swapped between writing der Erlking and his first appearance in the Files (80 odd years?) he wouldn’t have the personal knowledge of the rite of Summoning and the bad guys would need the book, or Bob (I can’t remember if he went over der Erlking with Harry).

It would be kind of ironic if the Black Council killed the one man with personal knowledge of the ritual which they then needed decades later. They have to then hunt for the book.

Remember the Black Council have been running infiltration long term.

I'm making assumptions based from the text.  If there is some grand conspiracy off the page then I'll miss it.  So be it. So for me Peabody is the one and only Peabody.  Justin is dead and so is Kemmler.  Cowl was after Bob the whole time.

[Yuillegan]

You are working on the assumption that the bad guys are all working together and don’t have their own personal grudges and ambitions, and that the Peabody who wrote der Erlking is in fact the Peabody killed by Morgan.

If the Black Council/Cowl/Kemmler have been replacing certain wizards with their own, then Peabody was swapped between writing der Erlking and his first appearance in the Files (80 odd years?) he wouldn’t have the personal knowledge of the rite of Summoning and the bad guys would need the book, or Bob (I can’t remember if he went over der Erlking with Harry).

It would be kind of ironic if the Black Council killed the one man with personal knowledge of the ritual which they then needed decades later. They have to then hunt for the book.

Remember the Black Council have been running infiltration long term.

There is only one Wizard Peabody in the series and he definitely wrote Die Lied Der Erlking. There is a scene in Turn Coat where Harry directly confronts Peabody in Edinburgh and says another Wizard (Bremen - the name of the fan who pointed it out to Jim) that the german grammar is wrong. So it's no assumption it's straight up facts. I know it's all the rage to ignore facts now but pesky as they are we have to acknowledge them here.

I think the confusion is why didn't Peabody help the Necromancers. Mainly because he wasn't aligned with them (Corpsetaker and Grevane) but he was aligned with Cowl and his possible Black Council. That's why Cowl didn't worry about getting Die Lied Der Erlking.

I don't believe the Black Council replaces anyone...I think they merely recruit.

There's a plot hole in all this if you assume Bob was found by accident. Cowl and everybody else does all this work to prep for the Darkhallow, but the Word of Kemmler isn't found until late in the game, well after the ritual is started. They wasted a lot of effort if no one had found the book, and everybody, but Cowl and Kumori, asks about the Word Of Kemmler. All Cowl does is ask for the Die Lied der Erlking, which he doesn't need since Peabody is a fellow Traveler. Either Cowl knew about Bob or he is an incredible optimist. It reads as if Cowl was just trying to keep anyone else from being able to do the Darkhallow.

Waiting for Harry to summon the Erlking.

He always had the means to do it himself. He was the only one who believed Harry could summon the Erlking but it wasn't like he was relying on it. You yourself acknowledge that it would have been a lot of effort for Cowl to go to if there was a central piece that was quite uncertain, like Harry summoning the Erlking was a key part of the plan.

Excellent point though. Cowl finding Bob by accident doesn't actually work in the architecture of the story. Whilst Cowl was trying to stop the other two doing the Darkhallow, I don't believe for a second he wasn't going for it himself. I am sure that he will attempt it again, bigger and better, and I suspect he might just succeed right at the the end of the Files perhaps leading to the BAT.

[Bad Alias]

Since the book is written in first person if Cowl didn't admit to it on the page it didn't happen, because Cowl would have had to told him for Harry to know. 

In no text that I have read does it indicate that Harry knew about Bob until he found him in the ashes after the fact. Elaine could have seen Harry take Bob from under a veil. So if Elaine is Kumori she could have been Cowls source.  It's also possible that someone saw Justin take the skull, like Cowl in his alternate identity?

If Elaine is Kumori and she knew about Bob from that time it's one path to how they knew Bob was there.

The only people we know for certain know Harry had Bob are Michael, Thomas, Murphy, Evil Bob, Cowl, Kumori, Butters, Bianca and a bunch of Red Court Vampires, and Andy (but that's after DB).

Molly almost certainly knows after SG. Sigurn knows something about Bob's existence, but it may be no more than that Harry sent a spirit to spy on Marcone. She might not know more than that. It makes sense that Elaine and Harry knew of Bob before Harry fought Justin, but I remember debates here about that in which it's not inconceivable that Harry found out about Bob sometime close to when he fought Justin.

The Ramps could have told any number of people, but Harry could have also killed all of them before they did.

And we have no idea who knew Justin had Bob and could reason that Harry now had hiim.

You are working on the assumption that the bad guys are all working together and don’t have their own personal grudges and ambitions, and that the Peabody who wrote der Erlking is in fact the Peabody killed by Morgan.

If the Black Council/Cowl/Kemmler have been replacing certain wizards with their own, then Peabody was swapped between writing der Erlking and his first appearance in the Files (80 odd years?) he wouldn’t have the personal knowledge of the rite of Summoning and the bad guys would need the book, or Bob (I can’t remember if he went over der Erlking with Harry).

It would be kind of ironic if the Black Council killed the one man with personal knowledge of the ritual which they then needed decades later. They have to then hunt for the book.

Remember the Black Council have been running infiltration long term.

Your moniker is well earned.

[b4utoo]

Well did anybody cover the fact that Anastasia luccio says she's familiar with kemmlers disciples and can she possibly know the name of Cowl? Or am I having a brain fart that nobody asked her?

[Bad Alias]

Well did anybody cover the fact that Anastasia luccio says she's familiar with kemmlers disciples and can she possibly know the name of Cowl? Or am I having a brain fart that nobody asked her?

If you're referring to the phone call with Harry in DB where she says "I am familiar with Kemmler's disciples," I don't think that let's us know the level of familiarity. We know she ran into Grevane in Dodge City, so she knew him by name. But she may have more generally meant that she's familiar with his disciples like Harry's familiar with White Court Vampires. He knows a lot about some specifically and a lot about how the operate generally. I always took that line more like a "don't your grandmother how to suck eggs" kind of thing.