Compelling argument.Lol. Someone gets it.
Compelling argument.And Kemmler is dead as well.
"The knowledge in der Erlking is about to become dangerous, Dresden," she said. "You need not give us the book. Simply destroy it here. That will be sufficient. I ask it of you, please."Indicating that he already is aware of what he needs in that respect. In all the events that went down Cowl neither asked about or searched for the Word Of Kemmler. If he hadn't known about Bob and that Dresden had him can you explain the events at Murphy's?
"Son of a bitch,'''' I swore, and my voice was a sulfurous snarl. "How could I be so stupid?"
I whirled and stalked back down the hall, through the living room, and into the kitchen, lifting my light.
On the kitchen table there were only empty cups of tea, empty cans, unlit candles, paper, and pens.
In the spot where Bob the skull had sat, there was nothing.
"Oh, man," Butters said quietly at my elbow. "Oh, man. They took him."
"They took him," I spat.
"Why?" Butters whispered. "Why would they do that?"
"Because Bob the skull hasn't always been mine," I growled. "He used to belong to my old teacher, Justin. And before that he belonged to the necromancer, Kemmler." I whirled in a fury and slammed my fist into Murphy's refrigerator so hard that it dented the side and split my middle knuckle open.
"I… I don't get it," Butters said, his voice very quiet.
"Bob did for Kemmler what he did for me. He was a consultant. A research assistant. A sounding board for magical theory," I said. "That's why Cowl took him."
"Cowl's doing research?" Butters asked.
"No," I spat. "Cowl knew that Bob used to be Kemmler's. Somewhere in there, Bob knows everything about the theory that Kemmler did."
A Warden not especially close to power, raising a couple of orphans?That's because he was humbled by his repeated defeats by the White Council and decided on a subtler plan this time.
He was in the Simon Body in Grave Peril and ditched it fearing his secret might have been ascertained by Harry, who was not supposed to survive.This is the first time I've seen any explanation for why the bad guys would take a position on the Senior Council and then abandon it.
His whole thing about being insulted to being called a Kemmler, and acting like he hardly knew him, plus referring to Kemmler's glory (like a disciple).Could you provide that one? I don't recall it.
At that time he knew but if I remember correctly he only learned it because Harry was not careful enough with Bob, he did not know before he went to Chicago and recognized Bob. If Harry had left Bob in his Lab it would not have happened.Harry only takes Bob out the lab, in DB, right before his apartment is overrun with zombies. He puts him in a bag and takes him to Murphy's. He only takes him out at Murphy's.
Every new owner changes Bob. Bob even explains it himself several times in different ways. But evil Bob was first locked away because overall Bob and Harry Bob did not want to be that Bob and Bob was grateful he could get rid of it after Harry asked him to.Bob doesn't have Free Will..he couldn't lock his personality up. He cannot change. Only with the aid of a mortal can he change, which is why each new owner changes his personality. It isn't stated when or how Evil Bob became regular Bob (although it is implied regular Bob was closer to the original entity prior to Kemmler's ownership). But we can work out that it if Harry had picked up Evil Bob he would have either been killed or become evil himself. Beyond that, Justin was the owner of the skull since Kemmler's fall. Why he took the skull from the ruins of Kemmler's last stand is unknown. But likely he found a very evil spirit, a demon if you like, that he needed to control. So I suspect he (perhaps with the help of others) bound the spirit behind it's own thoughts. That way it wouldn't keep trying to kill or control him but still give him access to a trove of knowledge and a super magical assistant.
It is just one of the many examples showing how of the scale crazy and evil Kemmler was.if Bob calls you evil you are not just a bit shady.
At that time he knew but if I remember correctly he only learned it because Harry was not careful enough with Bob, he did not know before he went to Chicago and recognized Bob. If Harry had left Bob in his Lab it would not have happened.
I got the impression that Cowl did not expect Bob but was pleasantly surprised.Not sure where you're getting this impression. Many people knew about Bob, but how many knew Harry had him? Luccio knew of Bob, and I would say a lot of senior Wardens and Wizards (like Cristos) who likely attended Kemmler's last stand - and of course the Senior Council.
And Kemmler is dead as well.Dead isn't dead. For a series about the supernatural that repeatedly states there are levels of death, and has actual afterlifes make an appearance...and resurrection, you seem very tied to a real world concept about no one who dies comes back.
I have read a lot of posts with far fetched theories about who’s spirit is residing in who’s body but Simon used his dead curse, Harry used magical fire to kill Justin and the white council was really thorough when killing Kemmler finally, they knew what happened the previous times.
Jim is not the author who resurrects people left and right. These people are not just declared dead in the books but also by several woj. They are part of the background story, not part of the current one.
I do not see any foreshadowing for them popping up either.
Bob doesn't have Free Will..he couldn't lock his personality up.Just because he has no free will does not mean he can not want things or has no will, it is just not free.
He cannot change. Only with the aid of a mortal can he change, which is why each new owner changes his personality. It isn't stated when or how Evil Bob became regular Bob (although it is implied regular Bob was closer to the original entity prior to Kemmler's ownership). But we can work out that it if Harry had picked up Evil Bob he would have either been killed or become evil himself.Bow would just serve Harry. That was hia nature and he was bound to do so. He would be bad influence.
Beyond that, Justin was the owner of the skull since Kemmler's fall. Why he took the skull from the ruins of Kemmler's last stand is unknown.Bob is power and knowledge, did he need more motivation?
But likely he found a very evil spirit, a demon if you like, that he needed to control. So I suspect he (perhaps with the help of others) bound the spirit behind it's own thoughts. That way it wouldn't keep trying to kill or control him but still give him access to a trove of knowledge and a super magical assistant.Justin picked up Bob and he became Justin's Bob. No further complication necessary. Justin's Bob was evil enough, he helped him with enthrallment spells after all but it does not compare with Kemmler's Bob.
Not sure where you're getting this impression. Many people knew about Bob, but how many knew Harry had him? Luccio knew of Bob, and I would say a lot of senior Wardens and Wizards (like Cristos) who likely attended Kemmler's last stand - and of course the Senior Council.Harry was too careless with using Bob. Someone like Cowl woul see it if he spied on Harry and recognise it.
Cowl specifically was hunting Harry for Bob at Murphy's. He actually tailed him with Kumori. Cowl either has access to more than ordinary means of surveillance and was able to work it out, or he previously knew Harry had Bob.Murphy's house was not protected against surveillance and Harry even left at some point letting Thomas and Butters speak with Bob. Of course Cowl learned about Bob, no special information source necessary. Harry was just too careless with Bob and did not realize any kemmlerite would recognise him.
Only 2 people could have actually known that - Justin and Elaine.Is that the Elaine is Kumori thing? I don't think they knew Harry took Bob. Justin was dead and Elaine fled to Summer before it happened.
Dead isn't dead. For a series about the supernatural that repeatedly states there are levels of death, and has actual afterlifes make an appearance...and resurrection, you seem very tied to a real world concept about no one who dies comes back.It is still something sparcely used. It is not that I am tied to the real world concept. I read ghost story unlike a lot of people here. It is just that they are characters that belong to the back story. Getting them back is unlikely and the longer they are dead the more unlikely it is.
Kemmler is dead, but to what degree matters a whole lot. Same with Justin or Simon etc. So death is not a great argument for ruling them out.It makes it highly unlikely. And add to that the rigorous way they were killed, with a lot of magical fire wich seems to help keeping them dead and the many woj about them being dead. Yes Jim can write anything he likes but that does not make it particularly likely.
I agree that there are some rather far fetched theories, even for a magical series. In saying that it's very plausible that Kemmler, Justin or others are operating beyond the grave. Jack Murphy is, so is Carmichael, even Corpsetaker. And even if not, they still exist *somewhere*. Who knows what they might do there.And we might see Murphy again. They are all dead though and can do very little here.
Just because you personally don't see foreshadowing doesn't make it so. I don't recall you seeing the foreshadowing of Marcone being a Denarian either. We all miss stuff, and Jim is quite good at hiding things.We discussed who got Namshiels coin endlessly. Marcone was not my favorite but his name did pop up.
You say Jim doesn't resurrect characters left and right. So what about Corpsetaker or Carmichael? What about Jack Murphy or Elaine? EvenElaine was never dead. I expect Cat Sith to pop up sooner or later. The other ones popped up when Harry was dead. Of course he met dead people then.
Malcolm had a cameo.
Wouldn't rule anyone out. Just because he doesn't use Necromancy doesn't mean characters won't return in some form. Jim brings back characters plenty.But he does not often bring people back from the dead. It is a big thing. Vadderung said so.
I have no idea who Cowl is. But unless the Wardens are super cretins you might suppose that they expected Kemmler to jump bodies and would have been prepared for that. That's a matter of logic. Remember the definition of stupid. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.They might have thought they were successful. Doesn't mean they were. Especially if Kemmler had allies. Beyond that, as I have already outlined there are multiple ways for Kemmler to be active and still have died. And I am glad to see someone else noticed the Corpsetaker trick.
We have one other possibility that exists. Kemmler did a Corpsetaker and went into ghost land, but having more power was able to displace some random nobody and come back.
On the matter of Simon, I would hope that they were able to find a body and identify it. I'm sure in the world of body snatchers and wizards the matter of true identity would be something that comes up quite often. To quote from the Outlaw Josey Wales, I don't want to hear Kemmler/Simon dead, I want to see him dead. In the real world we have gender fluid. In the Dresdenverse we have have body fluid. I'm having a hard time keeping up.
There are some hints. Jim says it's someone we've met. He isn't a Warden. He's a man, not a woman. He didn't need the Book of Kemmler because he knew of evil Bob. And he didn't need the other book because he had the Wizard who wrote it. That he knew that Harry had Bob means he knew where Bob was supposed to be(with Justin) and could infer who had him after Justine got lit up.
This implies that Justin was working for Cowl but that Bob was the personal artifact of Justin. The interactions between Cowl and evil Bob also imply that Cowl isn't Kemmler reborn, since Bob doesn't appear to recognize him as such. More like, you're a bitch but you ain't my bitch. There is also a possibility that Bob locked evil Bob away before Justin took control and that Justin never knew of evil Bob. Cowl knew both.
Looking back at the dialog, at no point does evil Bob show that he recognizes Cowl as either Justin or as Kemmler. Nor does Harry's Bob. Cowl is aware of evil Bob on the other hand, since Harry has given Bob explicit instructions to forget that part of him and Cowl has called him up.Not unless Justin/Simon/etc had already told Evil Bob not to reveal who he was... assuming he revealed his identity to Evil Bob at all. As you point out, a mortal could force Bob (of any nature) to forget/hide information. Harry often gets sucker punched because he assumes things. He assumes Bob has told him everything. Now look at Demonreach hiding things too. Harry is starting to realise he might not always get the whole picture even from those he trusts i.e. trust no one.
This is the first time I've seen any explanation for why the bad guys would take a position on the Senior Council and then abandon it.
Could you provide that one? I don't recall it.
Harry only takes Bob out the lab, in DB, right before his apartment is overrun with zombies. He puts him in a bag and takes him to Murphy's. He only takes him out at Murphy's.
The only chance Cowl had of recognizing Bob in Chicago was if he was still at Bianca's when Harry was captured, but that would have to have happened off screen.
Something relevant happened in the Dresden Files tv show that Jim hinted was a major spoiler for the series.(click to show/hide)
"Just as well," Cowl murmured. "I have wanted to see for myself what has the Wardens so nervous about you."If he were a Warden he would have known. Seems obvious.
Just because he has no free will does not mean he can not want things or has no will, it is just not free.Bow would just serve Harry. That was hia nature and he was bound to do so. He would be bad influence.Bob is power and knowledge, did he need more motivation?Justin picked up Bob and he became Justin's Bob. No further complication necessary. Justin's Bob was evil enough, he helped him with enthrallment spells after all but it does not compare with Kemmler's Bob.Harry was too careless with using Bob. Someone like Cowl woul see it if he spied on Harry and recognise it.Murphy's house was not protected against surveillance and Harry even left at some point letting Thomas and Butters speak with Bob. Of course Cowl learned about Bob, no special information source necessary. Harry was just too careless with Bob and did not realize any kemmlerite would recognise him.Is that the Elaine is Kumori thing? I don't think they knew Harry took Bob. Justin was dead and Elaine fled to Summer before it happened.It is still something sparcely used. It is not that I am tied to the real world concept. I read ghost story unlike a lot of people here. It is just that they are characters that belong to the back story. Getting them back is unlikely and the longer they are dead the more unlikely it is.
It makes it highly unlikely. And add to that the rigorous way they were killed, with a lot of magical fire wich seems to help keeping them dead and the many woj about them being dead. Yes Jim can write anything he likes but that does not make it particularly likely.
And we might see Murphy again. They are all dead though and can do very little here.
We discussed who got Namshiels coin endlessly. Marcone was not my favorite but his name did pop up.
Elaine was never dead. I expect Cat Sith to pop up sooner or later. The other ones popped up when Harry was dead. Of course he met dead people then.
But he does not often bring people back from the dead. It is a big thing. Vadderung said so.
If he were a Warden he would have known. Seems obvious.
Did Justin work for the Black Council? I don't know, but Harry ending up with Justin was a product of a lot of work on someones part. Jim uses something very similar in Proven Guilty to ensnare Molly. Someone either was watching Malcolm or killed him and was able to get people who could make the paper trail disappear. That's a lot for one man to do. And then someone spent some time watching Harry waiting to see if he manifested.
How would Cowl "spy" on Harry through his wards and apartment's threshold? Doesn't add up.Harry took Bob outside to help him and then Harry took Bob with him when he went to Murphy’s home and then Harry left Bob with Butters.
As far as Luccio was concerned - and this is likely the official White Council line - Bob was destroyed.Because he did not know yet and had other things to do.
Pure conjecture - we don't know that Cowl spied at all. All we know, as a fact, is that Cowl knew about Bob and was looking for him. Doesn't matter that Murphy's house wasn't protected. And if we go with your theory, why would Cowl have just gone in earlier to retrieve Bob?
Elaine knows about Bob the same way Harry does i.e. because Justin showed them.I had my own pet theory then but it was not unlikely.QuoteWhy would only Harry know? If Elaine were Kumori I think she knows Harry well enough that he would take Bob. She may well have gone to retrieve him herself. But even if Elaine isn't Kumori, she would still be one of the few who would know that Harry has Bob because only her and Harry knew Justin had Bob, as far as we know.
Knowing about Bob and knowing Harry had Bob are two different things.
You might feel that certain characters belong in the backstory. But that might not be how Jim feels. Not sure why you think the amount of time a character has been dead matters. Carmichael died and then showed up 10 books later. Malcolm was dead for decades and then shows up. Jack is the same. Elaine was missing for at least a decade. Kemmler used to disappear for decades after being "killed". Corpsetaker died in book six and then shows up in book 13. You get the idea.
Being dead doesn't make anyone in the series unlikely to return. If this were a standard detective series set in a world without magic, sure. But it isn't. Jim brings back characters as per necessary. Even Margaret Le Fay made a cameo. Jim had given himself every tool for bringing back any character he likes (magic, memory, afterlife, spiritual visitation, time travel, parallel universe etc). If Jim wants a character to come back for emotional purposes he won't hesitate.
What makes it likely is his pattern. And Jim has previously returned several characters that were meant to be dead or missing. He likely will again.
A character being dead can do very little here...have you seen the Corpsetaker? Or Kemmler? Or Malcolm? The dead interfere all the time in the Dresden Files. And we have no idea what the dead get up to in their various afterlifes.
People did guess about Marcone...but I don't remember you being one of them. And that is one example. Are you trying to tell me you have seen all of Jim's foreshadowing and guessed all the sucker punches?
Elaine wasn't dead, but Harry wasn't sure for a long time. Not to mention she was a character from his backstory. She showed up for narrative purposes. Just like Malcolm..who was dead. Corpsetaker was also dead. You're argument doesn't stand up.And corpstaker stayed dead. Malcolm stayed dead. Elaine being dead was contradicted by Bob. Harry’s mother also turned up in blood rites. Sort of. She was still dead. The dead can have some influence on the living but it is really very limited.
Vadderung said it was a big thing to walk in the shadows beyond life (or something like that). Not that it was unusual to return. And even so, it wouldn't make it common for Justin or Simon or Kemmler to return. That would be a maximum of four out of several billion. Not anyone's definition of common. Even if you only include wizards that still a maximum of four out of several thousand.If Kemmler was back he would have been the one doing the darkhallow in dead beat and his disciples would have helped him. He would have won. According to Mab he was dead and gone and I think she would know.
You cannot discount a return from death of a wizard, especially if the also happen to be a necromancer. That's literally one of their tricks.
Harry took Bob outside to help him and then Harry took Bob with him when he went to Murphy’s home and then Harry left Bob with Butters.
Of course Cowl kept track of that. Because he did not know yet and had other things to do. Why would only Harry know? If Elaine were Kumori I think she knows Harry well enough that he would take Bob. She may well have gone to retrieve him herself. But even if Elaine isn't Kumori, she would still be one of the few who would know that Harry has Bob because only her and Harry knew Justin had Bob, as far as we know.
You might feel that certain characters belong in the backstory. But that might not be how Jim feels. Not sure why you think the amount of time a character has been dead matters. Carmichael died and then showed up 10 books later. Malcolm was dead for decades and then shows up. Jack is the same. Elaine was missing for at least a decade. Kemmler used to disappear for decades after being "killed". Corpsetaker died in book six and then shows up in book 13. You get the idea.
Being dead doesn't make anyone in the series unlikely to return. If this were a standard detective series set in a world without magic, sure. But it isn't. Jim brings back characters as per necessary. Even Margaret Le Fay made a cameo. Jim had given himself every tool for bringing back any character he likes (magic, memory, afterlife, spiritual visitation, time travel, parallel universe etc). If Jim wants a character to come back for emotional purposes he won't hesitate.
What makes it likely is his pattern. And Jim has previously returned several characters that were meant to be dead or missing. He likely will again.
A character being dead can do very little here...have you seen the Corpsetaker? Or Kemmler? Or Malcolm? The dead interfere all the time in the Dresden Files. And we have no idea what the dead get up to in their various afterlifes.
People did guess about Marcone...but I don't remember you being one of them. And that is one example. Are you trying to tell me you have seen all of Jim's foreshadowing and guessed all the sucker punches?
I had my own pet theory then but it was not unlikely.And corpstaker stayed dead. Malcolm stayed dead. Elaine being dead was contradicted by Bob. Harry’s mother also turned up in blood rites. Sort of. She was still dead. The dead can have some influence on the living but it is really very limited.If Kemmler was back he would have been the one doing the darkhallow in dead beat and his disciples would have helped him. He would have won. According to Mab he was dead and gone and I think she would know.
So I assume your referring to Dead Beat here when discussing how Cowl only found out about Bob. Why then has Cowl waited 50 years give or take to find Bob? I doubt it's the first time he has been to Chicago in that time and Harry has sent Bob out before in missions.I said cowl and Kumori found out during dead beat on their own without help from Justin, Kemmler, Simon or Elaine because of their surveillance.
No, Cowl waited to pick up Bob when he needed him. He knew somehow he was with Harry and was happy with Harry keeping him secure. From the looks of things, he didn't need Bob until the Darkhallow became relevant again. And it was only a means to an end for him.He did not know before dead beat and he did not learn it from any dead person. Or at least a dead person telling him was not necessary for him to know. That was all I was saying
So Cowl was too busy to notice, and then finds out suddenly, and then goes to pick Bob up? Wrong again. He said he had and Kumori had been tailing Harry. He knew exactly when Bob was out in the open yet still waited. He waited for Harry to summon the Erlking and picked up Bob to seal the deal. He didn't have "other things to do" as he literally says what he has been doing. Tailing Harry.Not to busy to notice, he noticed it because of his surveillance. And then of course he waited for the right moment to act. Being busy was just one of the factors.
I think you're being a bit fascious right now. It isn't just about the Marcone reveal. You get the point I am making. You cannot say honestly that you saw all of Jim's foreshadowing for all his various reveals. Which means he likely has foreshadowed other things you have also missed, just like most of us.I personally miss a lot but if someone poses a far fetching theory like Cowl is Kemmler who was Justin a bit of foreshadowing to support it is not an unreasonable thing to expect.
The characters may have stayed dead yet still interacted with Harry, and the mortal world. Yes they are limited...so is every other being. When Kemmler returned from death in the past, it clearly didn't make any difference that he had died. He kept on causing wars and death and whatever else he was up to. But none of that matters to your argument, which as best as I can tell, is that characters who have died in the series whether offscreen or not are unlikely to come back. Which I have shown with examples is clearly not the case. What evidence do you have that Jim will not return dead or missing characters for narrative purposes? Have you some WOJ that says he won't do it?There are several woj telling the council was really thoroughly when they killed Kemmler the last time and some of them certainly knew what they were doing. I remember him talking about (magical) fire and spirits, they are not invulnerable.
I am not insisting Kemmler is back. I am merely saying it is possible for the character to return, not that I have found evidence that he has. You seem to be saying that it isn't. If Jim wants Kemmler back in the story, he will. Hell, he actually appeared in a short story set in the past. If Jim has a purpose he will bring the character back. I am not saying he has returned or that Jim intends to return him, but it wouldn't be unreasonable or unusual for Jim to do so.Actually that was smart. The Fomor were much stronger under water and she let them attack on grounds she prepared. A preemptive attack would probably have been a disaster. As Marcone said Ethniu threw away her surprise as well. She was just too arrogant and Mab used that optimally.
As for what Mab knows...I think we saw the limits of that in the latest book. If she knew everything why let Ethniu come and attack her?
No, she would have attacked the Fomor preemptively. But she didn't. It isn't like beings can't hide from Mab. Marcone hid his new ally. Bob has hidden for decades from Mab if not centuries.Mab was probably the one who fixed little Chicago and she was certainly the one who made sure Harry consulted Bob in cold days. Bob is too scared, Mab knows exactly where he is but she won’t act on it. Certainly not when Bob is indirectly serving her.
Even Gard was able to hide from Mab. And so was Nicodemus, and still is currently. Mab isn't all-knowing. And if Kemmler were smart he wouldn't go around advertising his presence to those he might want to kill him...and by all accounts he was brilliant.But also unhinged. By now he would have done something big and he would have called upon his disciples to help him.
As I have said before as well, even if she is right about Kemmler being dead it hardly makes him gone. Mab herself goes on about that in Cold Days.She knows the difference. She would have monitored him after he was dead until he was gone. More easily after he was dead.
I can't currently provide the reference as I am on my phone. However, it is in the part of Dead Beat where Cowl and Dresden are discussing the other Heirs and that they will all kill each other when convenient. I think it's actually right after Cowl knocks out Harry as he is about to control the Erlking.I came across that looking at that scene to see where it's implied that Cowl was surprised that Harry had Bob.
I said cowl and Kumori found out during dead beat on their own without help from Justin, Kemmler, Simon or Elaine because of their surveillance.Can you be specific as to when and how Cowl found out about Bob?
Since the book is written in first person if Cowl didn't admit to it on the page it didn't happen, because Cowl would have had to told him for Harry to know.True. We cannot say for certain anything about what Cowl is thinking.
In no text that I have read does it indicate that Harry knew about Bob until he found him in the ashes after the fact. Elaine could have seen Harry take Bob from under a veil. So if Elaine is Kumori she could have been Cowls source. It's also possible that someone saw Justin take the skull, like Cowl in his alternate identity?
If Elaine is Kumori and she knew about Bob from that time it's one path to how they knew Bob was there.
I came across that looking at that scene to see where it's implied that Cowl was surprised that Harry had Bob.I suppose it's a matter of opinion because I don't think Cowl openly states whether he was surprised by Harry having Bob. I certainly took it as him being at least aware enough that he knew to check for the spirit, which would suggest he thought the student of DuMorne might have him.
The "greater glory of Kemmler" quote is a lot less persuasive to me that he isn't Kemmler than the "madman Kemmler" quote. He's just stating that they get together and lie about their motivations.
Can you be specific as to when and how Cowl found out about Bob?
And Harry DID recognise Cowl next time he saw him, in Dead Beat, it was a wise precaution to escape from Simon’s body before Simon’s identity could be tied to Cowl.That might be a stretch there, Conspiracy Theorist. I get the irony in that sentence. I don't think anywhere it's confirmed that Cowl = Simon. So we don't know that "Cowl escaped Simon's body" because we don't know that Cowl is Simon. Even if that were the case, he hardly would need to change bodies between Grave Peril and Dead Beat, as Harry nor anyone else (as far as we know...with perhaps the exception of Ferrovax) would have seen him revealed. Harry basically only made a guess that the weird guy in a black hood and robes with a similarly clothed assistant was the same as the ones who appeared at Bianca's elevation to Duchess of the Red Court.
Harry hid Bob, and I am guessing that the Skull is guarded against location spells or scrying of any kind, so even if Justin were Cowl instead of a minion, he couldn’t find Bob or even know Harry had him. If the Minion were a Sorceror, it would make sense to give him Bob as his education in magic would certainly be lacking, and Bob could remedy that.
We might be confused about what the other is saying and what is posed as an example of impossibility.I agree.
I said cowl and Kumori found out during dead beat on their own without help from Justin, Kemmler, Simon or Elaine because of their surveillance.Do you have any proof of this or is this just speculation, just a theory you have? If you have evidence please tell us, and if it is just a theory I think you need a bit more to it to make it credible. It's certainly possible that this is true, but as far as I am aware there is no proof.
He did not know before dead beat and he did not learn it from any dead person. Or at least a dead person telling him was not necessary for him to know. That was all I was sayingIt seems the discovery of the Word of Kemmler was the catalyst for the Heirs coming to Chicago. However I do think it's interesting the timing of the rediscovery. Perhaps someone intentionally released it...But again, it's all conjecture. You don't know that Cowl didn't know before Dead Beat, and you don't know that a dead person didn't tell him.
Not to busy to notice, he noticed it because of his surveillance. And then of course he waited for the right moment to act. Being busy was just one of the factors.That doesn't make sense. The right moment to act would have been while Harry was not guarding the skull. And what else was Cowl busy with apart from tailing Harry?
I personally miss a lot but if someone poses a far fetching theory like Cowl is Kemmler who was Justin a bit of foreshadowing to support it is not an unreasonable thing to expect.I don't disagree. Any and all theories should be supported with some degree of evidence from the text or other outside sources. Especially the more far-fetched ones. I personally don't believe Cowl = Justin = Kemmler. But Justin and Kemmler being dead or supposedly dead is the least problematic part of any theory involving either of them, or Simon for that matter.
There are several woj telling the council was really thoroughly when they killed Kemmler the last time and some of them certainly knew what they were doing. I remember him talking about (magical) fire and spirits, they are not invulnerable.Jim does lie sometimes in his WOJ, so on it's own it's not always enough. The Council could also be wrong, it certainly wouldn't be impossible to fake. The Council's own arrogance would make it all the more easy. But even if they did properly kill Kemmler's body and release him from the mortal coil that still doesn't stop him from coming back from beyond the grave, or even acting from beyond the grave whether as a ghost, or ghost-soul (like Corpsetaker), or just a soul acting from whatever afterlife Kemmler went to. Not to mention if he somehow ended up Outside. Spirits may not be invulnerable but souls are not the same thing. There is some deep exposition Jim goes into in some panels, but even in the books that's discussed a bit.
And Lea knew about sir Stuart. They live in both worlds. The destruction of Kemmler was in important event, she would have watched it. She would have seen Kemmler’s spirit moving around as easily as we would have seen his body. Also Kemmler would have been a big disruption in the spirit world I think Mab would have been aware. By this time his disciples would have been aware and Kemmler would have done something big. He was not pensioning off or so.I get that Mab can see both the mortal and spirit world at once, being of two worlds. Assuming she was actually present at Kemmler's last stand in 1961, she may well have seen him leave the mortal realm. It still doesn't preclude him from returning in some way. Don't know how big of a spiritual ripple his death would have been. Even as a fairly powerful mortal wizard...he wasn't a god. Not sure what you mean by "pensioning off".
And yes if Jim really wants to he can bring back anyone he likes. Sometimes it just asks for really, really, really exceptional writing to pull it off.And Jim is a pretty exceptional writer. But it hardly takes all that exceptional writing to actually do. Simple as writing it down. Much harder to make it work in the story of course. But I wouldn't say the return of Malcolm or Margaret was exceptional writing either. I enjoyed the passages, but they are not literary masterpieces either. Corpsetaker was by far the most interesting, and I feel Jim had been waiting for that for a while. Kemmler's on-screen appearance by comparison was fairly lacklustre.
Actually that was smart. The Fomor were much stronger under water and she let them attack on grounds she prepared. A preemptive attack would probably have been a disaster. As Marcone said Ethniu threw away her surprise as well. She was just too arrogant and Mab used that optimally.We're not discussing tactics though, we are discussing Mab's foreknowledge. And it's clear she didn't know what the Fomor were about to do. But like Vadderung, she is always preparing to be assaulted even if she doesn't yet know. But her enemies plan ahead to, which means sometimes she gets caught out. That's strategy for you.
But I am not saying she knows everything, I am saying she was in a good position to know about Kemmler’s ultimate fate and was clearly interested.
Mab was probably the one who fixed little Chicago and she was certainly the one who made sure Harry consulted Bob in cold days. Bob is too scared, Mab knows exactly where he is but she won’t act on it. Certainly not when Bob is indirectly serving her.Maybe she did, maybe not. The little Chicago thing is whole other topic. How do you know Mab knew exactly where Bob is hiding, or that she knew Harry would use him? Is this another theory? As far as I am aware Bob has hidden pretty well from Mab. If she knew exactly why has she waited so long to pick him up.
But also unhinged. By now he would have done something big and he would have called upon his disciples to help him.Would he have really? He spent decades hiding at a time between his apparent deaths? Why get killed again? And who says he hasn't done something big? Maybe he is responsible for the Black Council? Maybe he is Cowl and did try something big? We just don't know.
She knows the difference. She would have monitored him after he was dead until he was gone. More easily after he was dead.Does she know more about death than the most notorious necromancer? And you're still acting like it's fact she was at Kemmler's last stand in '61, which hasn't been stated anywhere. Even if any of that were true, for the final time, it still wouldn't preclude him from acting from beyond the grave - death is not the end.[/b]
That doesn't make sense. The right moment to act would have been while Harry was not guarding the skull. And what else was Cowl busy with apart from tailing Harry?Waiting for Harry to summon the Erlking.
You are working on the assumption that the bad guys are all working together and don’t have their own personal grudges and ambitions, and that the Peabody who wrote der Erlking is in fact the Peabody killed by Morgan.I'm making assumptions based from the text. If there is some grand conspiracy off the page then I'll miss it. So be it. So for me Peabody is the one and only Peabody. Justin is dead and so is Kemmler. Cowl was after Bob the whole time.
If the Black Council/Cowl/Kemmler have been replacing certain wizards with their own, then Peabody was swapped between writing der Erlking and his first appearance in the Files (80 odd years?) he wouldn’t have the personal knowledge of the rite of Summoning and the bad guys would need the book, or Bob (I can’t remember if he went over der Erlking with Harry).
It would be kind of ironic if the Black Council killed the one man with personal knowledge of the ritual which they then needed decades later. They have to then hunt for the book.
Remember the Black Council have been running infiltration long term.
You are working on the assumption that the bad guys are all working together and don’t have their own personal grudges and ambitions, and that the Peabody who wrote der Erlking is in fact the Peabody killed by Morgan.There is only one Wizard Peabody in the series and he definitely wrote Die Lied Der Erlking. There is a scene in Turn Coat where Harry directly confronts Peabody in Edinburgh and says another Wizard (Bremen - the name of the fan who pointed it out to Jim) that the german grammar is wrong. So it's no assumption it's straight up facts. I know it's all the rage to ignore facts now but pesky as they are we have to acknowledge them here.
If the Black Council/Cowl/Kemmler have been replacing certain wizards with their own, then Peabody was swapped between writing der Erlking and his first appearance in the Files (80 odd years?) he wouldn’t have the personal knowledge of the rite of Summoning and the bad guys would need the book, or Bob (I can’t remember if he went over der Erlking with Harry).
It would be kind of ironic if the Black Council killed the one man with personal knowledge of the ritual which they then needed decades later. They have to then hunt for the book.
Remember the Black Council have been running infiltration long term.
There's a plot hole in all this if you assume Bob was found by accident. Cowl and everybody else does all this work to prep for the Darkhallow, but the Word of Kemmler isn't found until late in the game, well after the ritual is started. They wasted a lot of effort if no one had found the book, and everybody, but Cowl and Kumori, asks about the Word Of Kemmler. All Cowl does is ask for the Die Lied der Erlking, which he doesn't need since Peabody is a fellow Traveler. Either Cowl knew about Bob or he is an incredible optimist. It reads as if Cowl was just trying to keep anyone else from being able to do the Darkhallow.He always had the means to do it himself. He was the only one who believed Harry could summon the Erlking but it wasn't like he was relying on it. You yourself acknowledge that it would have been a lot of effort for Cowl to go to if there was a central piece that was quite uncertain, like Harry summoning the Erlking was a key part of the plan.
Waiting for Harry to summon the Erlking.
Since the book is written in first person if Cowl didn't admit to it on the page it didn't happen, because Cowl would have had to told him for Harry to know.The only people we know for certain know Harry had Bob are Michael, Thomas, Murphy, Evil Bob, Cowl, Kumori, Butters, Bianca and a bunch of Red Court Vampires, and Andy (but that's after DB).
In no text that I have read does it indicate that Harry knew about Bob until he found him in the ashes after the fact. Elaine could have seen Harry take Bob from under a veil. So if Elaine is Kumori she could have been Cowls source. It's also possible that someone saw Justin take the skull, like Cowl in his alternate identity?
If Elaine is Kumori and she knew about Bob from that time it's one path to how they knew Bob was there.
You are working on the assumption that the bad guys are all working together and don’t have their own personal grudges and ambitions, and that the Peabody who wrote der Erlking is in fact the Peabody killed by Morgan.Your moniker is well earned.
If the Black Council/Cowl/Kemmler have been replacing certain wizards with their own, then Peabody was swapped between writing der Erlking and his first appearance in the Files (80 odd years?) he wouldn’t have the personal knowledge of the rite of Summoning and the bad guys would need the book, or Bob (I can’t remember if he went over der Erlking with Harry).
It would be kind of ironic if the Black Council killed the one man with personal knowledge of the ritual which they then needed decades later. They have to then hunt for the book.
Remember the Black Council have been running infiltration long term.
Well did anybody cover the fact that Anastasia luccio says she's familiar with kemmlers disciples and can she possibly know the name of Cowl? Or am I having a brain fart that nobody asked her?If you're referring to the phone call with Harry in DB where she says "I am familiar with Kemmler's disciples," I don't think that let's us know the level of familiarity. We know she ran into Grevane in Dodge City, so she knew him by name. But she may have more generally meant that she's familiar with his disciples like Harry's familiar with White Court Vampires. He knows a lot about some specifically and a lot about how the operate generally. I always took that line more like a "don't your grandmother how to suck eggs" kind of thing.