Author Topic: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?  (Read 6811 times)

Offline Dina

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #165 on: November 18, 2020, 09:22:04 PM »
To some degree I agree with this, but remember Nemesis knows who Rashid is, so all of his real enemies, the people who would want to kill him for being the gatekeeper already want to, whether the council talks about the Gates or not.  I think the council doesn't talk about it because the less information about outsiders the better in terms of most wizards - i.e. if they don't even know about them they can't mess with them.  But that is all falling apart as the Outsiders are obviously becoming extremely active about wanting in, and we've seen that three different Walkers are active inside reality now.  The time for keeping things secret passed several books ago.  The entire idea that you shouldn't talk about nemesis because it might hear you is kinda bunk, because that's assuming that it doesn't know that the faerie queens and great powers know what it is and oppose it.  Look at how wrong things went because Lily was never brought up to speed about it from a trustworthy source?  I can't help but wonder how Nemesis would fare against a knight of the cross, i.e. can they detect a Nemesis infection?  If Butters saw Justine at the end there, would she have had a big glowing exclamation point (or whatever the enemy has to his senses) over her head?  Can the sword free someone from Nemesis infection?

I suspected Fidelacchius will be able to cure the nemfection since it was explained how it works (but it could be that it can't work against Nemesis, but killing the hunger in a white vampire. Specially a certain baby one). And about the detection...Michael detected Thomas as a vampire without problems, it seems that few things escape a KotC. So perhaps yes, perhaps they could detect it. Which would be very helpful. Also, I hope the KotC are immune to Nemesis, just because.
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Offline Telynn

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #166 on: November 19, 2020, 02:39:07 AM »
Have any of the knights ever mentioned anything to do with the infections and Nemesis?  I have to wonder if they are even aware of this going on.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #167 on: November 19, 2020, 09:02:47 PM »
Have any of the knights ever mentioned anything to do with the infections and Nemesis?  I have to wonder if they are even aware of this going on.

No. They might not be. Could be it's either not their purview at all, or the angels managing them are the aware ones and just move the knights around as needed.

Offline Dina

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #168 on: November 19, 2020, 09:07:11 PM »
Yes, when they are needed, they will be there.
Missing you, Md 

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Offline Avernite

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #169 on: November 19, 2020, 09:22:04 PM »
I think it;s also a bit of 'do your own job' thinking.

The Angels know about the Outer Gates, but generally their job is to fight the Fallen (and other hurters of Free Will), while Winter and the Gatekeeper do the heavy lifting at the Gates.

Should be noted that when an Outsider-sponsored plot came close to succeeding the Angels and Fallen both stepped in and drew some blood, even if only Namshiel got a success. So that certainly suggests the Angels know some of it.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #170 on: November 20, 2020, 09:00:02 PM »
Harry's reasons for keeping the relationship between Thomas and himself secret  has been repeatably gone over in the books.  And the theme again gets raised in Battle Ground. He Who Walks Beside used the relationship to attack Harry through Justine. I'm assuming that Beside has the same or better ability as has Anduriel. I take this from Titania's warning to Harry in Cold Days. Telling Carlos represents an unacceptable level of risk. There is a movie interpretation of this type of ubiquitous surveillance, called The Conversation.
What was repeatedly stated in the books was that the WCs would use the divided loyalties against them, but I do see your (and Eb's) point that family relations should be kept hidden so you don't make them targets.

@Dina: I agree that after Harry learns about the engagement, Harry should say different things than before.

I do wish Harry had told Carlos off somehow. Harry has been repeatedly let down by the Council starting when he was six freaking years old.

If the Merlin was kicking Harry out for any rational reason beyond not trusting him, I don't think it would be so Harry could act as a spy.  A spy who isn't reporting back to you isn't any good to you at all.
The Merlin approaches Harry to get him to act as a spy. Either directly or through an intermediary. Here's a scenario that could explain the vote of at least one of Harry's/Eb's allies on the SC voting to kick Harry out. Let's just go with Rashid, who voted that there was no Black Council in TC. To bring an issue before the SC requires a vote of three. Let's say it's the Merlin, Ancient Mai, and Rashid voting. (We could, but don't need to add Martha and Cristos). The Merlin explains to Rashid (and/or Martha) what he's planning. They all agree that Eb and LtW wouldn't go along with it, but will once backed into the corner of a vote already made. After Eb and LtW get out of the hospital, any combination of Harry's allies on the SC plus the Merlin can approach Harry and ask him to spy.

Sure it makes a lot more sense if Harry agrees to it before hand.

Mai and other wizard explained the whole Council what Mouse is.
Not really. They only explained that he was a very reliable witness, and Mai expressed shock that Dresden was allowed to keep one.

But the real decision came at the end after he took the eye of Balor obviously because he did not trust the white council with it.
Didn't they kick him out before he even had a chance to turn it over to them?

I suspected Fidelacchius will be able to cure the nemfection since it was explained how it works (but it could be that it can't work against Nemesis ...
Amoracchius was effective against Outsiders while Eb was having trouble with them. (PG)

Offline Dina

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #171 on: November 20, 2020, 09:25:20 PM »
Not really. They only explained that he was a very reliable witness, and Mai expressed shock that Dresden was allowed to keep one.
Semantics, I believe

Didn't they kick him out before he even had a chance to turn it over to them?
I don't think so.

Amoracchius was effective against Outsiders while Eb was having trouble with them. (PG)

I wonder what JB has on stock for Amoracchius. Harry Dresden, wizard, with his own castle and Excalibur. You cannot be much more epic than that.  :)
Missing you, Md 

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Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #172 on: November 21, 2020, 01:52:01 AM »
Quote

I do wish Harry had told Carlos off somehow. Harry has been repeatedly let down by the Council starting when he was six freaking years old.

I believe he did in his own way, but at that moment anything Harry said would just confirm what Carlos already believed.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #173 on: November 21, 2020, 02:21:38 AM »
Amoracchius was effective against Outsiders while Eb was having trouble with them. (PG)

Chopping up foot soldiers is a whole different ball-game from burning out Nemesis without harming the host. It's possible, but Walkers are probably roughly in the same power league as angels ... ensuring the host dies on their way out is probably at least as likely an outcome as curing possession.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #174 on: November 21, 2020, 04:38:33 AM »
Chopping up foot soldiers is a whole different ball-game from burning out Nemesis without harming the host. It's possible, but Walkers are probably roughly in the same power league as angels ... ensuring the host dies on their way out is probably at least as likely an outcome as curing possession.
Or rather archangels based on He Who Walks Behind.

Quote
7) HHWB, being a Walker, is an outsider on a power level similar to Uriel. He can do all KINDS of stuff. But also has a lot of weird limits as to when and where he can use his power.
https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/8ntzo3/my_name_is_jim_butcher_and_i_write_stories_ask_me/dzyl9ey/
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Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #175 on: November 21, 2020, 07:24:33 AM »
Or rather archangels based on He Who Walks Behind.
https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/8ntzo3/my_name_is_jim_butcher_and_i_write_stories_ask_me/dzyl9ey/

What is weird about that is none of the Outsiders we've met so far seem that powerful.  So there
must be a whole lot of constraints on them, more than even archangels.  Because Uriel seems to be a lot more powerful than an Outsider.

Offline Dina

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #176 on: November 21, 2020, 07:40:32 AM »
I think outsiders are super powerful in the other side, but not in our reality. They are pretty powerful though-
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Arjan

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #177 on: November 21, 2020, 08:50:12 AM »
What is weird about that is none of the Outsiders we've met so far seem that powerful.  So there
must be a whole lot of constraints on them, more than even archangels.  Because Uriel seems to be a lot more powerful than an Outsider.
We know Uriel is powerful but have we ever see him doing something powerful?
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #178 on: November 21, 2020, 09:25:34 AM »
What is weird about that is none of the Outsiders we've met so far seem that powerful.  So there
must be a whole lot of constraints on them, more than even archangels.  Because Uriel seems to be a lot more powerful than an Outsider.
Not being on their home turf is probably a pretty big handicap.
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Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #179 on: November 21, 2020, 12:15:08 PM »
We know Uriel is powerful but have we ever see him doing something powerful?

In history, yes, he is responsible for the deaths of all the first born in Egypt.  That's pretty powerful.