"Wow," I said in a level tone. "Mistrusting me from the get-go, huh?"
The way he said wewas something new. He wasn't using the word as an inclusive one, like, we are all friends. He was using it as an exclusive term We, but not you.
I saw recognition flicker in them as he saw me process what he was actually saying: Be advised, Harry. The White Council now considers you a threat.
"You made the call when you didn't talk to me. And sixty thousand people died."
One thing I thought of, Carlos put a spell on Harry. Harry finds a reason, a valid one perhaps, of putting one on Carlos. Felt like there was a hidden fae balance thing going on with that one. It's not something I feel Harry would so lightly to a friend... But Carlos had earned it.
That is an interesting thought. We know there have been times (at least one that I can remember reading about) where Harry actually felt a twinge when scales were unbalanced. (Just can't remember exactly where and when though...). Maybe Harry doesn't even realize that some of the things he does right now is a subconscious 'balance' thing. Something to be watching for more closely.In one of the recent interviews Jim mentioned something about how Harry's "totally not acting like a fairy" by immediately paying off debts and such. Jim's tone implied he meant the opposite.
When has Carlos exercised the kind of trust he has asked of Harry? They've had each other's backs in fights. Carlos has pointed out he knew something fishy was going on with both the Council and Harry in WN. That was the closest. He exposed himself to danger. If Harry was part of the Black Hats, then Carlos would have been in danger. If Carlos was in the Black Hats, he was risking exposing himself. That was Harry's opportunity talk to Carlos. Carlos might not have been trustworthy, but that was the time. PT was too late. As Mira points out, Carlos was already pretty suspicious of Harry at that point.
We're all assuming Carlos is a good guy because he comes off that way. I think he was well liked by most of us. Most of us understand why he's so suspicious of Harry. He's got plenty of reason to be. He seems like he's actually mad at Harry and thinks Harry's in the wrong. A member of the Black Council probably wouldn't. He might be able to fake it. My point is, while I don't think so, Carlos might be Black Council. A lot of his actions could be explained through that lens, but some others don't make much sense unless we're looking at a left hand doesn't know what the right is doing kind of situation.
On that note, Chandler's warning to Harry, escape from detention in Changes, and maybe not dying in the fight with Drakul could also be taken as hints he's not on the up and up. His warning to Harry could have been meant to push Harry into being defensive.
In fairness to Carlos I think he recent experience with the Winter Lady did damage him more than physically. You cannot blame him if he thinks Molly is a monster now, and by extension, Harry. How much does Luccio and the Senior Council know about how Carlos was injured? Knowing it was just the excuse they needed to get rid of Harry.Is it damage?
Cue Carlos concluding it was all wishful thinking that anyone could fall into Mab's clutches and not become a monster. All very logical and exactly what Harry expected going in.
But as of White Night, Carlos didn't ask any questions.I don't recall if he asked any specific questions, but he did call Harry out on keeping him in the dark and on Harry's suspicious behavior. I think Harry had an opportunity to forge a deeper friendship with Carlos there. It wasn't without risk. Carlos could have reported everything Harry said.
He went back far enough that it was greater than a normal wizards lifespan, stasis was his only option, perhaps about 620 years?It doesn't even have to be that far back. Even if he went back a week, he could risk damaging the space time continuum. Now, we know it would have to be longer than that because it would have to have been a Warden prior to Harry.
Cue Carlos concluding it was all wishful thinking that anyone could fall into Mab's clutches and not become a monster. All very logical and exactly what Harry expected going in.
Except Harry doesn't know that it was Molly that injured Carlos.I believe Avernite was referring to what Harry expected, not what happened to Carlos. Harry expected that He'd be a monster almost instantly after becoming Winter Knight. Hard to blame Carlos for thinking Harry was a monster after a few years.
I believe Avernite was referring to what Harry expected, not what happened to Carlos. Harry expected that He'd be a monster almost instantly after becoming Winter Knight. Hard to blame Carlos for thinking Harry was a monster after a few years.The point is, when he learned that Harry was running with a 250 pound vest, he gave Harry, "the look." Harry says he'd seen it before, Carlos thinks he is a monster.
The point is, when he learned that Harry was running with a 250 pound vest, he gave Harry, "the look." Harry says he'd seen it before, Carlos thinks he is a monster.That's your point. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Carlos at least suspects Harry of being monstrous. The argument is that Carlos isn't being irrational or unreasonable in suspecting Harry at a certain point. Maybe even at any point.
That's your point. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Carlos at least suspects Harry of being monstrous. The argument is that Carlos isn't being irrational or unreasonable in suspecting Harry at a certain point. Maybe even at any point.
In fairness to Carlos, there's really no reason for not explaining that the extreme exercise is precisely to keep the mantle exhausted, when he knows damn well that Carlos is wondering about whether he's being overtaken by it. Maybe he'd believe it, maybe not, but creating doubt about the "he's already a monster" narrative is worth sharing something harmless.
The point is, ...Once again, that's your point. Not the point. You're not addressing the point others are raising.
Once again, that's your point. Not the point. You're not addressing the point others are raising.I am addressing my point...
That sounds like a good idea, but think it through. After hearing Harry's explanation, and assuming he believed it, it might be logical for Carlos to think to himself, "Damn, Harry has to exercise like some caged criminal; make that super steroided up caged criminal, just to keep from going over the edge. It's worse than I thought. At best, Harry is a time bomb. At worst, he's already cracked and doesn't know it."
Carlos is just making bad decisions because of PTSD.
When he sees Harry on the beach, he's still recovering from his injuries from Cold Case. Then when he confronts Harry on the road, Harry threatens him with Molly. Harry isn't blameless here but he he the bullseye on Carlo's damaged psyche unknowingly and it makes Carlos react to an extreme.
Then at the end of Peace Talks, Carlos is dealing with Harry's use of him as a distraction. Embarrassing any man is playing with fire, but especially so with Hispanics. Then at the funeral, Carlos is dealing with the deaths of Wild Bill, Chandler and Yoshimo and feels that his only other friend, Harry, has betrayed his trust.
No, Harry didn't threaten him with Molly on the road.
One thing I thought of, Carlos put a spell on Harry. Harry finds a reason, a valid one perhaps, of putting one on Carlos. Felt like there was a hidden fae balance thing going on with that one. It's not something I feel Harry would so lightly to a friend... But Carlos had earned it.Since that also popped up in Harry's dialogue during the Rudolph chase it's probably one of the less obvious ways he's being affected by the mantle.
The fact is there is plenty of reasons outside looking in for suspecting Harry associates with White Court Vampires, Winter knight, never shares info fully ext and plus after Carlos ordeal he is going to be naturally suspicious of Fae and yes he probably does think Harry knows plus Harry isn’t the worlds greatest friend he wasn’t in a rush to try to find out what had happened to Carlos and yes Carlos put a tracking spell on him but there is a history of compromised wardens which again outside looking in looks an awful lot like Harry.
I did not hear Carlos was nemesis infected yet. Or maybe a denarian coin? ;D
I think that with everything that has happened to him recently, he is a useful tool for the 'black council'. I'm sure whoever it is was whispering some bad things about Harry in his ear to egg him on.
A couple of things, do Wardens do police reports?Yes. They had police style reports about LaForte's death. I don't know how routine such reports are, or if it's just for big things like the murder of a member of a Senior Council. Harry did send in and get reports, so reports of some type are routine. I don't see why they'd have a bunch of different style of reports, so I would imagine they're all "police" style. They question is how routine and detailed they are.
I've noticed that there is a moment when Harry has the doubt that Molly had become a monster and he decides to trust her. I wish Carlos did the same.
I agree about the details but I don't see Ramirez trying to trust Harry. Only "saying" that.
Like I said in my edit, Carlos kept trying to trust Harry, but that's kinda hard when Harry not only refuses to trust him, but is constantly acting dodgy as fuck, right after demanding the benefit of the doubt.
"Wow," I said in a level tone. "Mistrusting me right from the get-go, huh?"
He shrugged. "I was pretty clear about my intentions," he said. "If you don't want others to think you're shady, man, maybe you shouldn't be doing shady things at shady times with shady people."
I agree with Dina here. The way I read it Carlos was really saying, "We know you're under the Raith's power, let us help you."
Be advised, Harry. The White Council now considers you a threat.
I don't think that what transpired between Harry and Carlos is all about who was right and who was wrong. It's more about a lack of communication because of Harry's general isolation, miscommunication, the general attitude of most wizards to jealously hold on to secrets combined with legitimate concerns on both sides which were exaggerated by the issues I mentioned before that.
I kinda feel like he did that with Molly, and almost got his spine ripped out for his trouble.Pretty much, that repetition of Carlos trying to talk to Harry is probably intended to signify that Harry's fucking up in how he deals with Carlos.
Like, Carlos was being an irrational idiot and lashing out at the end of BG. But you know what? Harry fucking deserved it.
He gave him a chance to try and assuage some doubts outside Lara's in PT, and when Ramirez asked a very reasonable "tell us who you slept with so that we can confirm you aren't Being enthralled by the White Court"
Harry immediately responds by telling him to go fuck himself, and then begins grounding his staff and readying his shield.
Then Harry is seen being buddy-buddy with Lara, and even sleeping with her.
Then he attack Ramirez about 5 seconds before the Peace Talks go to hell.
Then he disappears right before the fight and refuses to tell anyone where he went.
Like, Harry couldn't have acted more suspicious if he was actively trying.
Pretty much, that repetition of Carlos trying to talk to Harry is probably intended to signify that Harry's fucking up in how he deals with Carlos.in line with my earlier comment... Didn't he deny Carlos 3 times? Once on the beach, once in the road and again in the stairwell?
Yes.
I've been thinking. What exactly is the Council problem by the time of the tracking device (before Thomas attack)? I mean, why they intend to separate him from the Council? He has been friends with Thomas for ages, and nobody said too much. That has not got worse (between Murphy and Maggie I don't think he has been all the time with Thomas). He has not been visiting Lara everyday or anything. He had been spending time with Murphy, a trustworthy vanilla. And yes, he is the WK but he has been the WK since Changes, and yes, he went back from the death, but that was in CD. What got worse in the last couple of months, between SG and PT?
So, if the problem is his links with the White Court, there are as bad as ever, not worse. And if the problem is Mab, as I said before, breaking his links with the Council gives HER the freedom to do things with Harry that she couldn't before. So, I have a suspicion, that the real problem is that they discovered that he has the objects and he is taking true control of Demonreach. All the rest are excuses.
in line with my earlier comment... Didn't he deny Carlos 3 times? Once on the beach, once in the road and again in the stairwell?
It is quite possible that the councils foreign policy, including their handling of Harry, is mainly a product of internal considerations and has less to do with Harry than we think it does. We get a Harry centric narrative after all.
It is also divided. The merlin uses tricks like waiting until members are injured to push things through. I suspect Harry has still some support within the council and will keep it if he behaves reasonably.
They think he has they eye of balor. It was smart of Harry to spread doubt about that but the white council was not at the meeting when he did so.The question there is, why wasn't a representative from the White Council there? Were they not invited or have they withdrawn from the Accords? Or it might not mean all that much, the Ghouls weren't there either.
The question there is, why wasn't a representative from the White Council there? Were they not invited or have they withdrawn from the Accords? Or it might not mean all that much, the Ghouls weren't there either.Harry did spell out a reason, barring further feedback I'm taking his canonical musing as the truth: the Accords fear open war with mankind and are thus not inviting representatives of 'pretty much mankind's defenders'.
They think he has they eye of balor. It was smart of Harry to spread doubt about that but the white council was not at the meeting when he did so.
Harry did spell out a reason, barring further feedback I'm taking his canonical musing as the truth: the Accords fear open war with mankind and are thus not inviting representatives of 'pretty much mankind's defenders'.
Harry also spells out that this is a silly approach and if they instead included mankind they might more or less avoid open war... but then some of those guys are predators on humans, and as wolves, lions and tigers can attest: humans don't treat threatening predators kindly.
But I was talking before that, in the beach, when Ramirez a) told Harry about the vote (later confirmed by Eb) and b) put a tracking spell on him.
Ooh you are right, I was confused. But Eb did tell him that before Thomas attacked anyone, so the point remains, why was the Council so wary of Harry even before Thomas did that. Also, what Ramirez did say on the beach is that people was impressed about Marcone maneouvering Nic and taking all what he had without breaking the accords. So apparently the Council did not know about Harry having the objects (unless they know better but Carlos is in the dark or lying).
In the same paragraph
Not known is how Martha Liberty voted, or if she voted, or Christos for that matter, did the battle change their minds about Harry one way or the other?
I thought Ramirez said the vote to put him under a suspended death sentence was unanimous.
The 'suspended' part either indicates the whole thing is a pretext to get leverage over McCoy, or was a concession Martha Liberty demanded in exchange for her vote. I think Harry scared her enough to lose her support, but she's on the fence now rather than fully committed to getting rid of him.
Well, you know what unanimous means to the Merlin means don't you? No quorum, no problem, he holds all the proxies and he knows all of them so well, he knows how they think and doesn't even have to ask them just how they'd like him to cast their vote... It's Proven Guilty all over again, Harry stood up to him and won the last time he tried to pull that. However I believe it was Eb who warned later that the Merlin wouldn't forget.. Well, he got his revenge.He *thinks* he got his revenge, more like. The Gatekeeper did warn a Harry-Council showdown was coming, and if Harry builds the Paranet into an alliance while himself having the support of Winter and the Whites... the Council might just fall apart rather than confront him outright.
Well, you know what unanimous means to the Merlin means don't you? No quorum, no problem, he holds all the proxies
Sure, but as far as we know, Martha wasn't injured. The only ones we know missed the vote for being in surgery were McCoy and LtW. The testimony that Harry killed turtlenecks in the battle had to come from Martha or Cristos. Even if it was Cristos' report, Martha presumably would have got back to Edinburgh at least as fast as he did, given his severe burns.But McCoy and LtW are usually the ones lobbying for Harry. The others supported Harry because they supported these two, they don't know Harry.
Sure, but as far as we know, Martha wasn't injured. The only ones we know missed the vote for being in surgery were McCoy and LtW. The testimony that Harry killed turtlenecks in the battle had to come from Martha or Cristos. Even if it was Cristos' report, Martha presumably would have got back to Edinburgh at least as fast as he did, given his severe burns.
It could have, but how much did Martha witness? As for Cristos I wouldn't be shocked if he was as guilty as Harry supposedly is. No, I believe the testimony came from Carlos.
Secondhand, through her spirit scouts? Potentially, even probably, everything.
I think Carlos and the other wizards arrived in the party of reinforcements with Marcone, the Raiths, Ivy, and the svartalves. Harry burned out the nest of turtleneck gunners substantially before that, to clear the way for taking and destroying the bridge over the sunken roadway. So he wouldn't have been in a direct position to see it, and unlike Martha we don't know him to have a working relationship with scouts who can report remote events.
Though, I suppose he might have seen some burned turtleneck bodies and concluded they must have been Harry's work, since Mab was the only other caster on the park battlefield, and she would have used ice.
I've noticed that there is a moment when Harry has the doubt that Molly had become a monster and he decides to trust her. I wish Carlos did the same. I agree with many of you saying that Carlos had reasons to mistrust, and also about his PTSD but I don't think I ever forgive him for saying the line about the 60000 deaths. Also, for not saying as much as "sorry" about Murphy.I agree with all of this. It might be different if we had a couple of Ramirez PoV stories, but from what we know, Carlos doesn't have the sort of secrets Harry does that require him to be extremely careful with what he tells another wizard. And not just because it could get Harry in trouble. I wouldn't tell a friend a secret of mine that could get them in trouble if they kept it or they had some sort of ethical obligation to report without very good reason even if I knew they'd keep the secret.
Yes, Carlos is in pain for the other wardens but Harry is too and he is grieving for Murphy. And Carlos just ignored it.
I don't know. Harry definitely could have done things much better with Ramirez, but his insistence in "talk to me" as if he (Ramirez) was not a loyal warden is annoying. He knows how Harry feels about the Council, that is not monster Harry. Is Harry, his friend. Monster Harry would probably be more polite about the WC :)
And again, I don't understand the WC. While he was a warden, Mab was constrained for her respect to Harry's previous commitments. Now, he is free and Mab can use him much more.
Again encore: I need to know if Ramirez knows about Maggie.
Harry isn't running with more "shady" people than he was before, unless you call the Alphas shady, two Holy Knights and a retired Holy Knight, and a former cop shady.He is in tighter with shady characters. He did a job with Nic and is Mab's vassal. But I do agree with your overall point that Harry's about as shady as he was when he met Carlos, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. He was the Council renegade who had just recently gotten out from under the Doom and brought a zombie t-rex to the fight the wardens were there for. A fight in which Harry saved the White Council, again.
Yes, communication or lack there of, goodness knows, has gotten Harry in trouble with friends etc before, but not this time. Carlos did communicate quite clearly with that tracking dot, he was telling Harry, "you're a suspect.." When he says, "talk to me.." He is saying, "confess.."I agree with this as far as PT is concerned, but think Harry could have salvaged the relationship by communicating more before PT. It was risky and maybe the right call at the time not to, but it could have worked.
He saw him, Justine and then Lara.Harry's been the Wizard of Chicago for at least 14 years now. Everybody should expect Harry to investigate an attack on the building he lives in. It shouldn't be taken as a sign of guilt for an investigator to talk to shady people in the course of an investigation.
Eb told Dresden that making him the liaison was part of a setup to prevent him to shake some hands, speak with people and go stronger for the general vote. Probably a Black Council setup. And Carlos told him that it has been his own idea.This is the best argument I've seen so far for Carlos being an out and out villain instead of just a pawn or distrusting Harry.
And if the [White Council's] problem [with Harry] is [his relationship with] Mab ...And that's the Councils fault. Harry ended up with Mab because he was owned by Lea. He ended up owned by Lea because of their persecution of his mother, their abandonment of/failure to protect him as a child, their lack of finding out (or handling if they knew) Dumorne was a bad egg at least a decade before Harry was born. Then they force Harry to work with Mab in SK and don't support Harry in his hour of need (Changes).
I agree with this as far as PT is concerned, but think Harry could have salvaged the relationship by communicating more before PT. It was risky and maybe the right call at the time not to, but it could have worked.
Should ah, could ah... But Carlos was apparently in the hospital, Harry was busy with Maggie and Murphy, not a good climate to talk.In the hospital. Did he even send a card? You would think so but for some reason I doubt it.
In the hospital. Did he even send a card? You would think so but for some reason I doubt it.
Should ah, could ah... But Carlos was apparently in the hospital, Harry was busy with Maggie and Murphy, not a good climate to talk.He's known Carlos for years. WN or right after was the right time.
But Harry did have both selfish and selfless reasons to leave Carlos in the dark. Telling Carlos too much puts Carlos in a awkward situation. Misplacing his trust in Carlos could have gotten Harry executed.
He's known Carlos for years. WN or right after was the right time.
Yes, I know, I thought the question was why Harry didn't send him a card.Easy misunderstanding of what I was addressing because there's a lot of other points raised by others between our back and forth, so I've collected ours right here for ease of reference:
Yes, communication or lack there of, goodness knows, has gotten Harry in trouble with friends etc before, but not this time. Carlos did communicate quite clearly with that tracking dot, he was telling Harry, "you're a suspect.." When he says, "talk to me.." He is saying, "confess.."
I agree with this as far as PT is concerned, but think Harry could have salvaged the relationship by communicating more before PT. It was risky and maybe the right call at the time not to, but it could have worked.
Should ah, could ah... But Carlos was apparently in the hospital, Harry was busy with Maggie and Murphy, not a good climate to talk.
He's known Carlos for years. WN or right after was the right time.
Which he made clear after he found the tracking dot on his wrist.So in the context of going back as far as WN, I don't think the dot on his wrist means that Harry's trust would have necessarily been misplaced in Carlos. I do admit the dot is some evidence that it might have been misplaced. On the other hand, a lot has happened that hadn't and might not have by the time Carlos puts the dot on Harry's wrist. Harry sharing secrets with Carlos could have built more trust so that Carlos would have been open about his concerns instead of sneaky.
I think Harry did tell him a lot, pre Changes.I don't think he told him anything big. He didn't tell him about Thomas, Elaine, Lash, and probably not Uriel or Luccio either. Telling him about Lash, Uriel, Thomas, Margaret the Elder being their mother, Lord Raith's murder of her, her death curse, and Lara's détente with Harry could have settled a great deal of suspicion Carlos had for Harry's actions and knowledge. But again, it also could have resulted in anything from pressure tactics against Harry to his execution (both from the White Council).
However it is "post" Changes that has Harry where he is now, and from the books at least I don't think they had much if any contact.I agree that post deal with Queen of the evil faeries is probably too late to build that trust. Maybe not, but I wouldn't bet on it. For the sake of discussion of what Harry should have done, where he is now isn't all that relevant. Where he is now is thrown out of the Council and not friends with Carlos anymore. That's relevant to what he should do, not what he should have done.
So in the context of going back as far as WN, I don't think the dot on his wrist means that Harry's trust would have necessarily been misplaced in Carlos. I do admit the dot is some evidence that it might have been misplaced. On the other hand, a lot has happened that hadn't and might not have by the time Carlos puts the dot on Harry's wrist. Harry sharing secrets with Carlos could have built more trust so that Carlos would have been open about his concerns instead of sneaky.
I don't think he told him anything big. He didn't tell him about Thomas, Elaine, Lash, and probably not Uriel or Luccio either. Telling him about Lash, Uriel, Thomas, Margaret the Elder being their mother, Lord Raith's murder of her, her death curse, and Lara's détente with Harry could have settled a great deal of suspicion Carlos had for Harry's actions and knowledge. But again, it also could have resulted in anything from pressure tactics against Harry to his execution (both from the White Council).Maybe not, however how much has Carlos told Harry about himself? They are friends, yes, but how close are they? I bet there is stuff you wouldn't tell your best friend for a number of reasons or vice versa. But as a friend, you accept that.
Knowing what we know of Harry, I would trust his intentions if not necessarily his judgment.And Carlos should also, but he didn't.
I'm not sure if it would be a good idea, but I wanted Harry to tell Carlos that Thomas was his brother at the memorial service in BG. It basically explains all of his actions in regards to the White Court. The reason stated by Harry that he kept it a secret was that the WC and the WC would both try to use it against them if it was known. Harry only has ties to one of those WCs now. That reason is now gone
You saw how that went down with Eb.. If Harry hadn't preplanned, he'd be dead. I doubt if it would have gone down any better with Carlos. Yes, telling him that Thomas was is brother might explain some things, but it could also just confirm to Carlos that Harry was totally under the White Court influence..Yes, if I were Harry I wouldn't tell Ramirez anything now. Not even about Murphy, because if I told him, he would find very weird that I had been having sex with Lara at the Talks (and that I am engaged to her now). Ramirez has made clear that he is the enemy now.
Yes, if I were Harry I wouldn't tell Ramirez anything now. Not even about Murphy, because if I told him, he would find very weird that I had been having sex with Lara at the Talks (and that I am engaged to her now). Ramirez has made clear that he is the enemy now.
If I were Harry, I would need Ramirez to believe that Freydis illusion was true, so he does not go asking questions about what I was doing. I wouldn't want him to realize that I was helping Thomas.
Consider though, at the beach, no FYI, no, "there are rumblings in the Senior Council, Harry, they suspect you of A, B, or C.. I know there is a lot you cannot tell me, but give me something I can live with." None of that, it was all very friendly and congenial, like I had said earlier, it was like Carlos was wearing a wire to entrap his friend or prove he was guilty of something. It was a sneaky knife in the back, put there by a so called friend.You're not arguing with the point I'm making. As of PT, I don't think we disagree with where Carlos is.
Maybe not, however how much has Carlos told Harry about himself? They are friends, yes, but how close are they? I bet there is stuff you wouldn't tell your best friend for a number of reasons or vice versa. But as a friend, you accept that.I'm not doing anything that makes my friends think I could be betraying everything they stand for and maybe even them personally.
And Carlos should also, but he didn't.Carlos doesn't know what we know, so I disagree. Given what I think Carlos knows, I wouldn't trust Harry either. We don't really have enough information to make a good guess at what Carlos knows.
You saw how that went down with Eb.. If Harry hadn't preplanned, he'd be dead. I doubt if it would have gone down any better with Carlos. Yes, telling him that Thomas was is brother might explain some things, but it could also just confirm to Carlos that Harry was totally under the White Court influence..Eb is entirely different than Carlos win it comes to the White Court. So I disagree that Eb's reaction is any indication of what Carlos's would have been.
(and that I am engaged to her now)Harry didn't know that at that point.
Harry's real problem is guilt by association, he even sort of admits that at the Accords meeting after the battle, that Carlos wasn't wrong, these people were monsters, but he wasn't one of them, or at least trying not to become one.I just had a thought because of this sentence. What if the Merlin knew the "monsters" would react the way they did? Would they allow Harry, as member of the White Council into their meeting? What if the Merlin kicked Harry out so the White Council could have an inside man? Harry has shown time and time again that he's going to uphold the core values of the White Council no matter who says what or how the Council treats him. Many of us have wondered why the Council kicked him out because it doesn't make sense. Maybe the reason was to make him into a spy.
I just had a thought because of this sentence. What if the Merlin knew the "monsters" would react the way they did? Would they allow Harry, as member of the White Council into their meeting? What if the Merlin kicked Harry out so the White Council could have an inside man? Harry has shown time and time again that he's going to uphold the core values of the White Council no matter who says what or how the Council treats him. Many of us have wondered why the Council kicked him out because it doesn't make sense. Maybe the reason was to make him into a spy.
I like the idea of the Merlin using Harry as a spy. It makes more sense that what it seems to be happening.
Morriswalters, I agree about Thomas. It's a secret that he wants to keep.
Bad Alias, yes, Harry did not know about the engagement, but that is another reason not to tell Carlos Now about his relationship with Lara. And, as I said, Carlos has to believe that he was with Lara indeed. But, Harry being Harry, I wouldn't have been surprised if he told him about Murphy. It is good he didn't.
Harry's reasons for keeping the relationship between Thomas and himself secret has been repeatably gone over in the books.
You saw how that went down with Eb.. If Harry hadn't preplanned, he'd be dead. I doubt if it would have gone down any better with Carlos. Yes, telling him that Thomas was is brother might explain some things, but it could also just confirm to Carlos that Harry was totally under the White Court influence..It would have been an uncomfortable conversation but far less violent if Harry told Ebenezar before working him up into a rage. Telling Carlos about Thomas would be an improvement over Harry's canon approach of clamming up when asked about his sex life, working with Lara and seemingly sneaking off to have sex with her and then refusing to give answers again when asked about that.
It would have been an uncomfortable conversation but far less violent if Harry told Ebenezar before working him up into a rage. Telling Carlos about Thomas would be an improvement over Harry's canon approach of clamming up when asked about his sex life, working with Lara and seemingly sneaking off to have sex with her and then refusing to give answers again when asked about that.I don't know, it would have been more than an uncomfortable conversation. Eb got worked up just at the sight of Thomas, then the idea of little Maggie living with her father totally set him off. The revelation about Thomas was just the cherry on that huge pile of poop. I don't blame Harry for being pissed and clamming up about who he had sex with. "Talk to us, we are all friends here...." So without his permission, he is scanned to prove he had sex with somebody, the Wardens assume the worst, hell yeah, that pissed Harry off. As Chandler hinted,"we are friends, you aren't included in that." Again, there is no way to explain about the illusion of sex with Lara, and then that Thomas is in fact his brother that is going to go down well. In a perfect world, perhaps.. But remember the tracking dot? The was the first shot of mistrust across Harry's bow, no, it would be dumb to talk to a so called friend who did that.
Harry's reasons for keeping the relationship between Thomas and himself secret has been repeatably gone over in the books. And the theme again gets raised in Battle Ground. He Who Walks Beside used the relationship to attack Harry through Justine. I'm assuming that Beside has the same or better ability as has Anduriel. I take this from Titania's warning to Harry in Cold Days. Telling Carlos represents an unacceptable level of risk. There is a movie interpretation of this type of ubiquitous surveillance, called The Conversation.
At this point beyond, Listens to Wind, Rashid, and Eb, I don't think there is anyone that Harry could trust completely.
I'm not even sure he can trust Eb completely. He did say they were past talking in BG.
I don't know, it would have been more than an uncomfortable conversation. Eb got worked up just at the sight of Thomas, then the idea of little Maggie living with her father totally set him off. The revelation about Thomas was just the cherry on that huge pile of poop.More specifically, he was upset by Harry leaving his kid alone with a white court vampire after what happened to his mother. Context would have helped there even if dropping that bomb with Thomas in the same room would have been a bad idea (he had several opportunities where Thomas wasn't nearby).
Before Cold Days even,Harry didn't have a name to put on it beyond "Black Council. But by the time that Peabody was exposed, there was ample evidence that the number of people on the Council Harry could trust was very small. At this point beyond, Listens to Wind, Rashid, and Eb, I don't think there is anyone that Harry could trust completely.
I don't blame Harry for being pissed and clamming up about who he had sex with. "Talk to us, we are all friends here...." So without his permission, he is scanned to prove he had sex with somebody, the Wardens assume the worst, hell yeah, that pissed Harry off. As Chandler hinted,"we are friends, you aren't included in that." Again, there is no way to explain about the illusion of sex with Lara, and then that Thomas is in fact his brother that is going to go down well. In a perfect world, perhaps.. But remember the tracking dot? The was the first shot of mistrust across Harry's bow, no, it would be dumb to talk to a so called friend who did that.Once again, if he wants to keep his sex life a secret, he can stop making himself a gigantic security hazard by constantly hanging out with the mind controlling sex vampires.
More specifically, he was upset by Harry leaving his kid alone with a white court vampire after what happened to his mother. Context would have helped there even if dropping that bomb with Thomas in the same room would have been a bad idea (he had several opportunities where Thomas wasn't nearby).Once again, if he wants to keep his sex life a secret, he can stop making himself a gigantic security hazard by constantly hanging out with the mind controlling sex vampires.
I did not mean Mouse. I meant Harry. When Eb arrived, Harry, Thomas and Maggie were in the appartment (also Bonea, Mouse and Mister, but that is not relevant here). After the discussion, Thomas left. So he was never alone with Maggie.Mouse is very good at protecting Maggie. Also against Thomas if necessary.
Also, why Eb wouldn't have a good understanding of what Mouse is? Mai did it clear (and other wizard too) in the Council. Which, actually, good have been a good indication than Thomas was not a danger for Harry or Maggie.
Precisely. The fact that he is not aggressive towards Thomas should be a motive for Eb to realize that Thomas has not bad intentions.
Didn't Mouse protect Molly from Thomas once in the past?Changes.
Changes.
However Mouse apparently understands now that Thomas isn't a threat. Also since Mouse knows his charge is to protect Maggie, if he sensed even a hint that he was a threat, he'd bite his you know what off before you could say, "Thomas is a threat.."I think Mouse feels the demon surfacing and will start with warning signals before biting things off.
And what do you mean "constantly"? I mean, by now Carlos must know that his relationship with Thomas is not sexual. And I am sure he has not seen Lara in months by the time they were on the beach. Also, he has been hanging around Murphy since she was hurt (cooked for her and stuff like that). So, perhaps think there are other options?True, Mouse was there.
On the post-BG scenario, though, I am wondering if a mind-controlled wizard would be strong enough to bind a Titan.
I think Mouse feels the demon surfacing and will start with warning signals before biting things off.
And how would Carlos be sure about his relationship with Thomas, all they know is that they're close enough to Harry that he's got better ancient Etruscan than he has Latin and that they're regularly spending time together even outside of whatever crisis is happening?
1) That is my point:For Eb it is simple. He is white court, that is enough.
If Thomas was a danger, Mouse would react. Mouse did not react. Therefore, Thomas is no threat. Eb should realize that, but he is too biased.
2) Thomas was never alone with Maggie. HARRY was with them (as well as Mouse).
3) What Mira says. Also, apparently there is a comic where the wardens fight alongside Thomas. And he has been an ally of Harry for years while he was dating Luccio, for instance. There is no reason for him to believe Harry is being mind controlled for him.
For Eb it is simple. He is white court, that is enough.
And that is not a stupid attitude. Most of the cases that would be true.
It isn't a stupid attitude, but it still can be a prejudiced one. There is a fine line between a sensible attitude, and total stubbornness, which completely closes the mind. That can be sometimes a stupid attitude.He closes his mind to the exceptions. It is the same attitude that executes all warlocks. It works most of the time but sooner or later you miss something.
He closes his mind to the exceptions. It is the same attitude that executes all warlocks. It works most of the time but sooner or later you miss something.
If Thomas tried to do anything to little Maggie you can bet Mouse would start to bite off things... Because if Thomas is so hungry his demon is taking over, he will need more than a warning to stop.Most people need more than to see someone coming in to defend his family after being talked into being Harry's trump card to decide that they're trustworthy.
Carlos has fought along side of Thomas in White Night, you learn a bit from that.
With all the trust is a two way street we have been talking about. Did Carlos ever share any secrets with Harry? Or something along those lines?
Indeed, I've been wondering that as well, and I can think of none. Yes, we are told that most of the younger Wardens look up to Harry and agree with him on many counts, but nothing about secrets shared with Harry.
I'd say Carlos as young Warden has bit less secrets usually.
I mean he barely graduated when we meet him, and then in White Night already Dresden is quite obviously hiding information
It's clear from PT/BG that neither Carlos told Dresden about it, nor Molly tried to dunno apologize for incident.
It's possible Carlos reported to White Council - which could be a reason they are now quite harsh on Dresden - his warlock apprentice turned Sidhe and ripped their Warden to shreds
It's clear from PT/BG that neither Carlos told Dresden about it, nor Molly tried to dunno apologize for incident.
With all the trust is a two way street we have been talking about. Did Carlos ever share any secrets with Harry? Or something along those lines?Well he followed Harry into the deeps and stuck around despite every sign that there's a lot of suspicious things going on along the way.
Anyone else find it suspicious that Carlos only brought people who at one time would have stood up for Harry away from HQ right when they were having a discussion about Harry's membership? Carlos says that he choose the team that came to Chicago. Carlos has to know more wardens than this, yet chooses to only bring Harry's pottential allies away when he could really use them.
I'm not sure she can. The short story this happened in had a couple instances of her trying to talk to Carlos about Winter stuff, and being unable to say anything other than pickup lines. Harry asked some things about how she's doing with the job in SG and she said she couldn't tell him, literally, despite him being the Knight.
Any sort of meaningful apology to Carlos would require an explanation of why the mantle forced her to attack him. That seems like a more serious Winter secret than anything she wanted to say earlier and was blocked from, so she probably cannot speak about it.
Anyone else find it suspicious that Carlos only brought people who at one time would have stood up for Harry away from HQ right when they were having a discussion about Harry's membership? Carlos says that he choose the team that came to Chicago. Carlos has to know more wardens than this, yet chooses to only bring Harry's pottential allies away when he could really use them.They're also the US team with the exception of Chandler.
They're also the US team with the exception of Chandler.
Yukio is Japanese full and through. She even is not very fluent in English.There's a whole comic of them being the US team, Dresden gets Chicago, Carlos gets LA, Bill gets Texas, Yoshimo is the only one we don't have the assigned area for.
There's a whole comic of them being the US team, Dresden gets Chicago, Carlos gets LA, Bill gets Texas, Yoshimo is the only one we don't have the assigned area for.
Maybe they left her with them, as they were war-squad together. Or they lacked local Warden.
Dunno really. If one of basic qualities of Winter Lady a big secret. Is it even... possible for it to be a secret. It's like Maiden, Mother, Crone mythology - any wizard with decent knowledge would get it. If so... that's really weird.
Would he still be carrying as much of a grudge as he seems to be if some of the senior wizards had had the "You tried to WHAT? You can't do that!" talk with him after he got brought back to the Edinburgh hospital?No topic is lied about so much as sex. Did he even tell what he tried to do?
Would he still be carrying as much of a grudge as he seems to be if some of the senior wizards had had the "You tried to WHAT? You can't do that!" talk with him after he got brought back to the Edinburgh hospital?
He still could think Molly tricked him.
I mean I'm sure Maeve shredded dozens men in her life just of sheer frustration.
He still could think Molly tricked him.
I mean I'm sure Maeve shredded dozens men in her life just of sheer frustration.
Sarissa rolled her eyes and gave a helpless little lift and fall of her hands. “Maeve, what could I possibly have ruined for you? Did finally moving out of that studio apartment destroy your life? Did getting my nursing degree somehow diminish your power? Did I steal some boyfriend of yours that you accidently left breathing after the first night?”
Sarissa rolled her eyes and gave a helpless little lift and fall of her hands. “Maeve, what could I possibly have ruined for you? Did finally moving out of that studio apartment destroy your life? Did getting my nursing degree somehow diminish your power? Did I steal some boyfriend of yours that you accidently left breathing after the first night?”
This is awesome. Totally forgot about it.However Molly isn't Maeve. However I guess you cannot blame Carlos for guilt by association. That is if he knew how Maeve really was.
However Molly isn't Maeve. However I guess you cannot blame Carlos for guilt by association. That is if he knew how Maeve really was.
I mean Carlos sort of have a right to be pissed anyway - and apparently Winter Court did nothing to balance this.Maybe everybody knows except Harry and Carlos. Wizards.
Srsly if Lady - Maiden status is suddenly big Winter's secret I'm gonna be very MEH. I know it fantasy series, but it does not sounds like aspect of Mantle you can keep in secret. Not for a long run, not from White Council.
Maybe everybody knows except Harry and Carlos. Wizards.
Maybe everybody knows except Harry and Carlos. Wizards.
Well, only Harry now. Carlos knows. And how.Or he does not. He does not know why.
Or he does not. He does not know why.
Regarding Carlos and secrets. Everyone has something they tell their close friends and not other people, something where it will to some degree make them vulnerable if they used it against them.
Before Lara revealed it it could have been that he is a virgin. Now it could be something that he is afraid of like when Harry was afraid of fire.
At least to my thinking a way to prove that you trust someone and want to be open with them is to tell them something about yourself and get a bit of advice on or just to let it out.
I realize it is story and there is no time for all these small interactions that may or may not appen between books. I am just saying that I cannot remember Carlos opening up to Harry either.
Exactly, and while the time to do it would have been before he showed up on the beach to ask Harry or to tell him he was on the security team, it was a calm time to open up. After that all bets were off, but the lack of trust was already there, hence the tracking dot put on Harry by stealth.. So aside from the fiasco with Molly, what happened to Carlos that caused this 180 degree turn? Or have we all been fooled? Carlos just played the friend so he could get close and spy on Harry from the beginning?No.
Priscellie: Kevin Nichols asks "is there a key difference between how air and water magic work in the Dresden Files?"
Jim: Yes. Water magic is, of the four major classical elements water magic is a very different one in the Dresden Files universe and it has a much more... what would typically be thought of as an eastern understanding of what is involved in water magic. Water magic is stuff that is involved in healing, the stuff that is involved in emotional connection, the stuff that is involved in empathy. It is your interaction with the natural physical world and being in harmony with that world. That's why the wizards who are water mages tend to be very very different from Dresden. Dresden is a very linear kind of guy, he is an a+b=c sort of fellow, the water mages in the Dresden Files universe though are are people like River Shoulders, people like Listens-To-Wind and because water magic acts so differently you see them as very different sorts of wizards and they sort of solve their problems very differently. They tend to be much more empathetic towards Dresden and towards other people who are misunderstood for example. That's why of all the wardens it's Carlos Ramirez who is the one who is close to Harry, he's the water mage, he's the one who can understand him and does have that empathy. He's the guy who is all about connections and about taking connections apart when he needs to. That's where the disintegration aspect of what he does- in water magic comes from is severing those connections now that he understands them. But yeah Ramirez, he is a much more spiritually and mentally alert guy than most of the wardens around, he's got a lot of depth to him. Also a lot of pain so he's a complex fellow.
No.
Thanks for that, but it still doesn't explain why Carlos is acting the way he is. Because if Carlos still felt empathy for Harry, he wouldn't have pulled what he did on the beach. Also he would totally understand Harry's lack of trust after he discovered the tracking dot.. He also understand that when he was asking Harry to "talk to him," it didn't sound like it came from an understanding friend trying to help. So unless Jim has changed his mind about Carlos, someone got to him big time, there could very well be more than one Peabody type on the Council.He just took the path Butters started on but left. For him Harry is a monster and not the Harry he knew anymore. He needs an enormous shock or revelation to change his mind now. I do not think his marriage with Lara will help.
Yes, I don't think Carlos is evil or that he is BC, but he can be a)nemfected (I hope not. I really don't like the "everyone is infected" trope). b)manipulated. I think at some point he will realize that b) is right and something will happen to make him a believer again. Remember, Butters began like that and now is like the stepping stone of the Dresden Church :)
Mostly, it's the accumulation of "everybody is more than it seems" what bothers me. Too many characters are nemfected, a starborn, a secret denarian, wearing more than a mantle, under a thrall, a n ex-angel, and so on. When paranoia is THAT justified it became old fast. And losing one of those who were "just" what they seem to be, like Murph, hurts more when that is the case.
Because if Carlos still felt empathy for Harry, he wouldn't have pulled what he did on the beach.
This is not a question of empathy but of trust. Empathy is skill/ability of one's perception not necessarily moral guide.He might even feel sympathy for Harry’s inner struggle but feels that he is doomed to loose it or already lost it and they can’t take the risk anyway.
And Carlos being more empathetic can also feel all Dresden inner darkness, even if 80% of them is Dresden's neurosis over them.
He might even feel sympathy for Harry’s inner struggle but feels that he is doomed to loose it or already lost it and they can’t take the risk anyway.
But why does a close friend lose that kind of faith? I still doubt that Carlos came to those conclusions on his own.Because the dangers are real and it only looks worse from a distance. This is the world were your friend can become a monster. Harry from summer knight would not trust Harry from Cold Days and butters did not either.
After all "don't trust WK Harry, he'll be a monster before too long" is also Harry's stance before he gets several memos from Uriel and Mother Summer that he can stay himself.That is why he committed suicide in the first place
What I really want is another short story, "Field Trip," where Harry takes a bunch of people who need to know what is on the line to the outer gates - Fix is the most important to take, probably Butters to be a communicator, and Carlos out of hope of repairing the relationship. Maybe Billy just because he deserves the trust. Maybe Lara if she isn't clued in, though I suspect she is and bringing her along would weaken the outreach to Carlos.
Such a trip isn't really letting any secret out of the bag, since all the power players know it. And it gives a reason for Harry to be a monster and for others to help him. Fix really needs to know that while there are times that Winter and Summer are enemies, that there are also times they are allies for a good reason. And I think that if Carlos can see Harry getting along with the Summer Knight, see a reason for Harry to be helping Mab, and see a knight of the cross along vouching for Harry, that might go a long way to bringing Carlos back in the fold.
Yes, that is all very, very true but, again, Harry has not done anything to show that he has changed. There is no trail of bodies that Harry left in Mab's name. He still frequented Thomas, but he did that before. He did not see Lara (I am talking about the beginning of PT). He still frequents the Knights. He frequents Murphy more than before. Nothing in his behavior says "he became dark side". So yes, I fully understand being wary and cautious. Tracking spell? Voting him out the Council? Not so much.Out of sight. That was why his bodyguard detail was a trap, he could not go to Edinburgh to talk to people. He did not maintain his contacts in the white council so any rumor about him became more believable.
He was with Lara much later. The plan of taking him off the council was already in movement, as Eb told him at his place. But with the rest, I agree.Oh they are wrong but that does not mean they know they are wrong. And we do not know what support Harry still has in the council.
Mab should be pleased, those stupid free her Knight of a lot of boundaries now.
But the real, definite proof that the Council is in the wrong is Michael's reaction. When in doubt, look at Michael (and Mouse, if you can).
Yes, that is all very, very true but, again, Harry has not done anything to show that he has changed. There is no trail of bodies that Harry left in Mab's name. He still frequented Thomas, but he did that before. He did not see Lara (I am talking about the beginning of PT). He still frequents the Knights. He frequents Murphy more than before. Nothing in his behavior says "he became dark side". So yes, I fully understand being wary and cautious. Tracking spell? Voting him out the Council? Not so much.
Out of sight. That was why his bodyguard detail was a trap, he could not go to Edinburgh to talk to people. He did not maintain his contacts in the white council so any rumor about him became more believable.Except he has never done that, that is one reason why he never came in contact with Peabody's ink and influence. Rashid filled out the paperwork for him after Cold Days, so that is a big contact. Actually it might be considered suspicious if Harry suddenly did hang out in Edinburgh and got close, close...
Then he was secretive. All wizards are secretive but if there is suspicion it will only make it worse. And then he boinked with Lara. Big red flag. Especially with Carlos who soul gazed Lara in white night and knows what a monster she is.
His winter knight strength is also a red flag. Monsters are physically strong, not wizards.
But the real decision came at the end after he took the eye of Balor obviously because he did not trust the white council with it.No, he doesn't, and if the White Council wants the Eye they went about getting it the wrong way. However we really don't know the real reason why the Council wanted to get rid of Harry.
Oh and toot scared the hell out of them too. He has a whole army now.
Mab is not that impressed by the white council now.
Oh they are wrong but that does not mean they know they are wrong. And we do not know what support Harry still has in the council.
What I really want is another short story, "Field Trip," where Harry takes a bunch of people who need to know what is on the line to the outer gates - Fix is the most important to take, probably Butters to be a communicator, and Carlos out of hope of repairing the relationship. Maybe Billy just because he deserves the trust. Maybe Lara if she isn't clued in, though I suspect she is and bringing her along would weaken the outreach to Carlos.If the senior council needed to know and it was safe to tell them, they would know, because Rashid would have told them. Rashid hides what he is from the Council, because he would be subject to attack away from the gates if it was revealed who and what he is.
Such a trip isn't really letting any secret out of the bag, since all the power players know it. And it gives a reason for Harry to be a monster and for others to help him. Fix really needs to know that while there are times that Winter and Summer are enemies, that there are also times they are allies for a good reason. And I think that if Carlos can see Harry getting along with the Summer Knight, see a reason for Harry to be helping Mab, and see a knight of the cross along vouching for Harry, that might go a long way to bringing Carlos back in the fold.
Out of sight. That was why his bodyguard detail was a trap, he could not go to Edinburgh to talk to people. He did not maintain his contacts in the white council so any rumor about him became more believable.She was throwing shade at them for how they were acting with regards to Harry as early as Cold Days, picking 45 of all songs for his birthday party.
Then he was secretive. All wizards are secretive but if there is suspicion it will only make it worse. And then he boinked with Lara. Big red flag. Especially with Carlos who soul gazed Lara in white night and knows what a monster she is.
And as usual when everything goes to hell he is away doing personal stuff. We saw Ebenezer’s reaction to that. With Lara.
His winter knight strength is also a red flag. Monsters are physically strong, not wizards.
But the real decision came at the end after he took the eye of Balor obviously because he did not trust the white council with it.
Oh and toot scared the hell out of them too. He has a whole army now.
Mab is not that impressed by the white council now.
If the senior council needed to know and it was safe to tell them, they would know, because Rashid would have told them. Rashid hides what he is from the Council, because he would be subject to attack away from the gates if it was revealed who and what he is.
That is true, oh I think Harry still has some support, Eb, Listens to Wind, and Rashid.. But when the vote came down two were in surgery and the third occupied with keeping the Gates safe. Unsure how deep Martha's support runs without Eb being present, but she has to know the service Harry performed during the battle. I am also not all that certain that Christos is so much against Harry now, but I'd say it was either him or Carlos who testified against Harry. However it still all could be a sham, because if they believed it, there would be no suspended death sentence.. It would be simple, death by Blackstaff.I think it is quite possible that Eb did not support him in the recent vote. Interestingly enough, it sure looked like the vote came after the events in Chicago (since Carlos had time to go, and then come back days later to report the results) rather than simultaneously, so it is possible Harry could have gone and defended himself if he hadn't been so smashed to bits by the fighting.
I think it is quite possible that Eb did not support him in the recent vote. Interestingly enough, it sure looked like the vote came after the events in Chicago (since Carlos had time to go, and then come back days later to report the results) rather than simultaneously, so it is possible Harry could have gone and defended himself if he hadn't been so smashed to bits by the fighting.
Eb warned Harry about how people would be betraying him, and Harry gave Eb all kinds of reason to be angry with him in PT. So I suspect Eb was on the "kick em out" train as a way of giving "tough love" to try to bring Harry back. It might be interesting to see who was in Harry's camp.
IIRC according to Carlos the vote was unanimous, but was also held while Eb and LTW were in Hospital.
Though the idea that Carlos seems to blame all the deaths in Chicago on Harry just boggles my mind. In what world could he have prevented the attack of an entire nation of evil beings the Council had essentially been at war with for several years? And then when he actually did stop the big bad... they throw him out and Carlos agrees with it? That is just ridiculous.
Yes, I don't think Carlos is evil or that he is BC, but he can be a)nemfected (I hope not. I really don't like the "everyone is infected" trope). b)manipulated. I think at some point he will realize that b) is right and something will happen to make him a believer again. Remember, Butters began like that and now is like the stepping stone of the Dresden Church :)
To some degree I agree with this, but remember Nemesis knows who Rashid is, so all of his real enemies, the people who would want to kill him for being the gatekeeper already want to, whether the council talks about the Gates or not. I think the council doesn't talk about it because the less information about outsiders the better in terms of most wizards - i.e. if they don't even know about them they can't mess with them. But that is all falling apart as the Outsiders are obviously becoming extremely active about wanting in, and we've seen that three different Walkers are active inside reality now. The time for keeping things secret passed several books ago. The entire idea that you shouldn't talk about nemesis because it might hear you is kinda bunk, because that's assuming that it doesn't know that the faerie queens and great powers know what it is and oppose it. Look at how wrong things went because Lily was never brought up to speed about it from a trustworthy source? I can't help but wonder how Nemesis would fare against a knight of the cross, i.e. can they detect a Nemesis infection? If Butters saw Justine at the end there, would she have had a big glowing exclamation point (or whatever the enemy has to his senses) over her head? Can the sword free someone from Nemesis infection?
Have any of the knights ever mentioned anything to do with the infections and Nemesis? I have to wonder if they are even aware of this going on.
Harry's reasons for keeping the relationship between Thomas and himself secret has been repeatably gone over in the books. And the theme again gets raised in Battle Ground. He Who Walks Beside used the relationship to attack Harry through Justine. I'm assuming that Beside has the same or better ability as has Anduriel. I take this from Titania's warning to Harry in Cold Days. Telling Carlos represents an unacceptable level of risk. There is a movie interpretation of this type of ubiquitous surveillance, called The Conversation.What was repeatedly stated in the books was that the WCs would use the divided loyalties against them, but I do see your (and Eb's) point that family relations should be kept hidden so you don't make them targets.
If the Merlin was kicking Harry out for any rational reason beyond not trusting him, I don't think it would be so Harry could act as a spy. A spy who isn't reporting back to you isn't any good to you at all.The Merlin approaches Harry to get him to act as a spy. Either directly or through an intermediary. Here's a scenario that could explain the vote of at least one of Harry's/Eb's allies on the SC voting to kick Harry out. Let's just go with Rashid, who voted that there was no Black Council in TC. To bring an issue before the SC requires a vote of three. Let's say it's the Merlin, Ancient Mai, and Rashid voting. (We could, but don't need to add Martha and Cristos). The Merlin explains to Rashid (and/or Martha) what he's planning. They all agree that Eb and LtW wouldn't go along with it, but will once backed into the corner of a vote already made. After Eb and LtW get out of the hospital, any combination of Harry's allies on the SC plus the Merlin can approach Harry and ask him to spy.
Mai and other wizard explained the whole Council what Mouse is.Not really. They only explained that he was a very reliable witness, and Mai expressed shock that Dresden was allowed to keep one.
But the real decision came at the end after he took the eye of Balor obviously because he did not trust the white council with it.Didn't they kick him out before he even had a chance to turn it over to them?
I suspected Fidelacchius will be able to cure the nemfection since it was explained how it works (but it could be that it can't work against Nemesis ...Amoracchius was effective against Outsiders while Eb was having trouble with them. (PG)
Not really. They only explained that he was a very reliable witness, and Mai expressed shock that Dresden was allowed to keep one.Semantics, I believe
Didn't they kick him out before he even had a chance to turn it over to them?I don't think so.
Amoracchius was effective against Outsiders while Eb was having trouble with them. (PG)
I do wish Harry had told Carlos off somehow. Harry has been repeatedly let down by the Council starting when he was six freaking years old.
Amoracchius was effective against Outsiders while Eb was having trouble with them. (PG)
Chopping up foot soldiers is a whole different ball-game from burning out Nemesis without harming the host. It's possible, but Walkers are probably roughly in the same power league as angels ... ensuring the host dies on their way out is probably at least as likely an outcome as curing possession.Or rather archangels based on He Who Walks Behind.
7) HHWB, being a Walker, is an outsider on a power level similar to Uriel. He can do all KINDS of stuff. But also has a lot of weird limits as to when and where he can use his power.https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/8ntzo3/my_name_is_jim_butcher_and_i_write_stories_ask_me/dzyl9ey/
Or rather archangels based on He Who Walks Behind.
https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/8ntzo3/my_name_is_jim_butcher_and_i_write_stories_ask_me/dzyl9ey/
What is weird about that is none of the Outsiders we've met so far seem that powerful. So thereWe know Uriel is powerful but have we ever see him doing something powerful?
must be a whole lot of constraints on them, more than even archangels. Because Uriel seems to be a lot more powerful than an Outsider.
What is weird about that is none of the Outsiders we've met so far seem that powerful. So thereNot being on their home turf is probably a pretty big handicap.
must be a whole lot of constraints on them, more than even archangels. Because Uriel seems to be a lot more powerful than an Outsider.
We know Uriel is powerful but have we ever see him doing something powerful?
In history, yes, he is responsible for the deaths of all the first born in Egypt. That's pretty powerful.But that was a long time ago and might not even be true, it is a story told about him. We also know that beings who used to be powerful are now less so.
But that was a long time ago and might not even be true, it is a story told about him. We also know that beings who used to be powerful are now less so.
I believe that is connected to faith.. If the belief system remains strong, the gods etc remain powerful.Or it is also what they tell about Uriel. He is still powerful but he is not doing that much with his power.
Quite a few people still believe in the Almighty and His archangels.
I believe that is connected to faith.. If the belief system remains strong, the gods etc remain powerful.
Quite a few people still believe in the Almighty and His archangels.
It helps. But evidently faith was not enough to stop Creator for simply sacking Olympian Gods from their jobs.
And then it does not work really with faerie being most powerful supes around, considering faith in them is very limited.
Sure there are stories, but in this case MCU movies should give powerful powerup to Thor :P
Kringle's thing is that he's part of Odin being a minmaxing fuck who opts into staying involved with humans and becomes mortal as a result but just happens to have a job that gives him immortality on the side.
What is weird about that is none of the Outsiders we've met so far seem that powerful. So there
must be a whole lot of constraints on them, more than even archangels. Because Uriel seems to be a lot more powerful than an Outsider.
We've seen them on page from the perspective of an enemy who's their embodied kryptonite. If it was the Ramirez Files, I'm thinking Walkers would be a 'run away' threat instead of a dangerous but challengeable enemy.And let's add to that - there are fairly few enemies who have specific people as their kryptonite. Lots of things have weaknesses, but the Outsiders need specific people to be countered.
Semantics, I believeNot really. Being a reliable witness is completely different than being a good judge of character, a good protector, or anything about his priorities.
Harry Dresden, wizard, with his own castle and Excalibur. You cannot be much more epic than that. :)So epic. It's funny watching booktubers talk about how DF is light fantasy between your epic fantasy series.
anything Harry said would just confirm what Carlos already believed.Definitely because that's where the story's going. But I, and many others, wanted him to really tell Carlos off, and we feel he really didn't.
Chopping up foot soldiers is a whole different ball-game from burning out Nemesis without harming the host. It's possible, but Walkers are probably roughly in the same power league as angels ... ensuring the host dies on their way out is probably at least as likely an outcome as curing possession.My point was that the Amoracchius effective on Outsiders, so there is reason to believe that Fideliacchuis is too.
Not really. Being a reliable witness is completely different than being a good judge of character, a good protector, or anything about his priorities.I just said that they told what he is, a Foo Dog. Everybody can decide what to do with that information. That is textual. My opinion is that several members of the WCouncil searched for it and now should have a good idea of what a Foo Dog is, and that probably includes being a good protector.
So epic. It's funny watching booktubers talk about how DF is light fantasy between your epic fantasy series.What is a booktuber? And what would be epic fantasy? Magicians?
I just said that they told what he is, a Foo Dog.What I thought you were saying is that they said what a Foo Dog is, which we know, unless corrupted, is somewhere in the same area as an angel based on Uriel calling him brother.
Could be that they do, and the beliefs in the Norse gods lingered for quite some time. That might be why Odin still manages to carry a lot of weight.. He might also cheat a bit with the Kris Kringle mask, millions of kids believe in Santa..
Kringle's thing is that he's part of Odin being a minmaxing fuck who opts into staying involved with humans and becomes mortal as a result but just happens to have a job that gives him immortality on the side.
My point was that the Amoracchius effective on Outsiders, so there is reason to believe that Fideliacchuis is too.
Oh I don't know, Kris Kringle is pretty immortal and in the guise of St Nicklaus is worshiped as a Christian saint. Seems like Odin covers all his bases.
And what would be epic fantasy? Magicians?
According to Odin chose to become mortal but keep privilege to meddle in mortal affairs. Of course as ex-Aesir he was still as mortal powerful wizard, so it's no wonder he restored much of his power by gaining various mantles including mantle of Winter King (which was presumably somehow shaped as memory of him, so it could get easier). Also it's a place where I have to say I really dislike how they use Kris Kringle as almost his proper name considering it's relatively modern concept that arise when German settlers for whome Baby Jesus was giving presents on Christmas - it's result of improper pronounciation of Christkind - (ergo Christ-Child), that was mixed with classic Santa Claus vision.
I doubt it's Jim intention - he probably just choose nickname used most in his region but if I was paranoid I'd make theory how Odin is trying to steal mantles from Jesus himself.
That isn't so crazy, you know. Somehow Odin managed to pick up the soul of a devout Catholic. There might be more cross over between Odin and Jesus in the Dresdenverse than you think.Uriel and Odin have lunch together every year.
That isn't so crazy, you know. Somehow Odin managed to pick up the soul of a devout Catholic. There might be more cross over between Odin and Jesus in the Dresdenverse than you think.
Look I'm not really judging but considering overall Murphy's life, especially her years long romance with Hellspawn and breaking Sword of Faith I think we can safely assure her Catholicism is more like Irish thing and convinient excuse to avoid threesome propositions from Valkyries, nothing more :P