Author Topic: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?  (Read 6819 times)

Offline Mira

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"Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« on: October 29, 2020, 04:04:00 PM »


  A lot has been made that Harry should have trusted Carlos more and should have talked to him about what was happening in Peace Talks..  Really?

First chapter of Peace Talks when Harry and Thomas are jogging on the beach etc.  Carlos shows up
and tells Harry about the peace talks with the Fomor and that he gets to choose his team and he wants Harry to be a part of it.  All very friendly banter, except for a small thing, Carlos asks Harry how much his weighted vest weighs.. Then he kind of eyes Harry.. Given what we know now, was Carlos already sizing Harry up as a possible monster? Also supposedly they are friends, but no "FYI from Carlos that there is some crap coming down about Harry from the Senior Council and to be on his guard.. None, we also know now that is when Carlos put the tracker ink spot on him.. He also knows Thomas was on the beach, he too has worked with Thomas, some idea how close Harry and Thomas are, but not that they are brothers.

So events move along, the ink spot isn't a listening device, so he might not know about Eb's visit, unless it was preplanned between Carlos and Eb..

Carlos knows Harry spent considerable time at Murphy's place, but unknown if he knows what their relationship is.

Knows about the return to the apartment , the events there..

He knows of the visit to Justine..

At some point Harry picks up Murphy and they head to the Raith Estate to find out more information, because Harry hasn't a clue as to what is going on except that his brother is in deep poop...

On the way back they are stopped by the Wardens.. Now it gets interesting..
Harry finds out some interesting facts, he already knows from Eb that the Senior Council wants him gone,
1]  Carlos had put a tracking dot on ink on him at the beach..  Harry's response;
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"Wow," I said in a level tone. "Mistrusting me from the get-go, huh?"

Carlos replies about doing shady things , shady times and shady people... But when he put that dot on Harry, he was merely running on the beach.

2] Yoshimo scans Harry for recent sexual contact... "Talk to me..." Oh yeah, Carlos knew Harry had spent lots of time at Murphy's place.. Maybe he didn't know they were a couple, but maybe he did, if he and Harry were such good friends.  But because Harry visited Lara, Thomas's sister, well, did you have sex with the vampire?  Did she put the whammy on you?  Chandler explains very honestly why Harry is suspect in the recent events... "Talk to me..." "We don't understand, we are all friends."

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The way he said wewas something new.  He wasn't using the word as an inclusive one, like, we are all friends. He was using it as an exclusive term We, but not you.

But Chandler didn't feel good about this at all, because he attempted to telegraph a message to Harry with his eyes.
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I saw recognition flicker in them as he saw me process what he was actually saying: Be advised, Harry. The White Council now considers you a threat.

Harry got the message, odd don't you think the warning came from Chandler, not from his good friend, Carlos.

"Talk to me..."  Yet, Carlos put a tracking dot on Harry before any of this hit the fan.. No FYI, no heads up at all.. Except a well, you should have known type thing, get down in the mud with pigs you get muddy type thing...

Harry's dilemma... He likes Carlos, he knows he is a good man, yet Carlos pulled that crap with the tracking dot.  Harry trusts he'd do the right thing, but really?  Where are his loyalties really? To Harry, who he thinks might have turned into a monster, he thinks Molly did, why not Harry?  Or to the Senior Council? To whom he is sworn as an arm of the law.

Harry wanted to talk to Carlos, but alone.. But that got complicated in the intrigue of was Carlos subverted by the Senior Council, isolated... But if talked to Harry alone would be suspected of being subverted by him and isolated.. Did Carlos really think Harry was a sock puppet of someone? If Harry did come clean, would Carlos go back and tell the Senior Council everything and make things worse?  Then the Council might think that Harry was giving some misinformation, all of which had to be verified... And Harry didn't have time for any of that..

So after everything goes down, Harry is kicked out, and Carlos says,

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"You made the call when you didn't talk to me.  And sixty thousand people died."

Really?  Carlos bought into the argument on the beach when he put the tracking dot on Harry's wrist and asked how much weight his running vest was.  From his look he had already bought into the idea that Harry was Mab's personal monster.. Now he is trying to rationalize the fact that he had betrayed a friend.. "You didn't talk to me. And sixty thousand people died."  Really?  Harry didn't arrange for the Fomor to come with a Titan with the goal of wiping out the City of Chicago for starters.. Carlos had drunk the Kool-Aid, and had drank it from the beginning..  Call it PTSD from his encounter with Molly.


Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2020, 04:31:03 PM »
One thing I thought of, Carlos put a spell on Harry. Harry finds a reason, a valid one perhaps, of putting one on Carlos. Felt like there was a hidden fae balance thing going on with that one. It's not something I feel Harry would so lightly to a friend... But Carlos had earned it.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2020, 04:49:04 PM »
In fairness to Carlos, there's really no reason for not explaining that the extreme exercise is precisely to keep the mantle exhausted, when he knows damn well that Carlos is wondering about whether he's being overtaken by it. Maybe he'd believe it, maybe not, but creating doubt about the "he's already a monster" narrative is worth sharing something harmless.

Offline Telynn

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2020, 04:54:03 PM »
One thing I thought of, Carlos put a spell on Harry. Harry finds a reason, a valid one perhaps, of putting one on Carlos. Felt like there was a hidden fae balance thing going on with that one. It's not something I feel Harry would so lightly to a friend... But Carlos had earned it.

That is an interesting thought.  We know there have been times (at least one that I can remember reading about) where Harry actually felt a twinge when scales were unbalanced.  (Just can't remember exactly where and when though...).  Maybe Harry doesn't even realize that some of the things he does right now is a subconscious 'balance' thing.  Something to be watching for more closely.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2020, 05:04:29 PM »
When has Carlos exercised the kind of trust he has asked of Harry? They've had each other's backs in fights. Carlos has pointed out he knew something fishy was going on with both the Council and Harry in WN. That was the closest. He exposed himself to danger. If Harry was part of the Black Hats, then Carlos would have been in danger. If Carlos was in the Black Hats, he was risking exposing himself. That was Harry's opportunity talk to Carlos. Carlos might not have been trustworthy, but that was the time. PT was too late. As Mira points out, Carlos was already pretty suspicious of Harry at that point.

We're all assuming Carlos is a good guy because he comes off that way. I think he was well liked by most of us. Most of us understand why he's so suspicious of Harry. He's got plenty of reason to be. He seems like he's actually mad at Harry and thinks Harry's in the wrong. A member of the Black Council probably wouldn't. He might be able to fake it. My point is, while I don't think so, Carlos might be Black Council. A lot of his actions could be explained through that lens, but some others don't make much sense unless we're looking at a left hand doesn't know what the right is doing kind of situation.

On that note, Chandler's warning to Harry, escape from detention in Changes, and maybe not dying in the fight with Drakul could also be taken as hints he's not on the up and up. His warning to Harry could have been meant to push Harry into being defensive.

That is an interesting thought.  We know there have been times (at least one that I can remember reading about) where Harry actually felt a twinge when scales were unbalanced.  (Just can't remember exactly where and when though...).  Maybe Harry doesn't even realize that some of the things he does right now is a subconscious 'balance' thing.  Something to be watching for more closely.
In one of the recent interviews Jim mentioned something about how Harry's "totally not acting like a fairy" by immediately paying off debts and such. Jim's tone implied he meant the opposite.

Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2020, 05:05:40 PM »


  The point is, I think is was Carlos a willing stooge for the Senior Council from the beginning.  On the reread, the beach scene reads precisely like that, except for the odd questioning look Harry saw in his face when he asked how much the vest weighed, Carlos acted like Carlos.  One of Harry's best buds among the Wardens, in the middle of the sweetness and light he plants a tracker dot on him.

In fairness to Carlos I think he recent experience with the Winter Lady did damage him more than physically.  You cannot blame him if he thinks Molly is a monster now, and by extension, Harry.  How much does Luccio and the Senior Council know about how Carlos was injured?  Knowing it was just the excuse they needed to get rid of Harry.

What I find is interesting is the one Warden who thinks it all stinks is Chandler.  He is the one who really conveys the message for Harry to be on his guard with the Wardens.  Also interesting, in the fight with Drakul and the Black Court, while Wild Bill and Yoshimo are killed, their bodies sent off for conversion to wizard vamps, Chandler is sent off into another dimension..  You know he is going to return.  Is Harry in Mirror Mirror going to run across him and rescue him? If he does, who's side will Chandler really be on? 

Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2020, 05:17:31 PM »
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When has Carlos exercised the kind of trust he has asked of Harry? They've had each other's backs in fights. Carlos has pointed out he knew something fishy was going on with both the Council and Harry in WN. That was the closest. He exposed himself to danger. If Harry was part of the Black Hats, then Carlos would have been in danger. If Carlos was in the Black Hats, he was risking exposing himself. That was Harry's opportunity talk to Carlos. Carlos might not have been trustworthy, but that was the time. PT was too late. As Mira points out, Carlos was already pretty suspicious of Harry at that point.

But as of White Night, Carlos didn't ask any questions. 
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We're all assuming Carlos is a good guy because he comes off that way. I think he was well liked by most of us. Most of us understand why he's so suspicious of Harry. He's got plenty of reason to be. He seems like he's actually mad at Harry and thinks Harry's in the wrong. A member of the Black Council probably wouldn't. He might be able to fake it. My point is, while I don't think so, Carlos might be Black Council. A lot of his actions could be explained through that lens, but some others don't make much sense unless we're looking at a left hand doesn't know what the right is doing kind of situation.

That is why I am wondering if someone on the Black Council is taking advantage of Carlos's recent trauma at the hands of Molly, the Winter Lady.  I doubt that anyone has explained or perhaps even knew that that would happen if a mortal tried to have sex with the virgin fae queen.  Weakened physically and emotionally, it wouldn't be hard for an experienced older wizard, even Luccio, to twist his views so Carlos would think it possible that Harry was a monster. No need to break any of the Laws about going into the mind, a silver tongue is all that is needed.

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On that note, Chandler's warning to Harry, escape from detention in Changes, and maybe not dying in the fight with Drakul could also be taken as hints he's not on the up and up. His warning to Harry could have been meant to push Harry into being defensive.

Possible, I will eat all the books in the series if Chandler doesn't pop up again, but as a double agent? Friend? Foe?  Will Carlos become the black hat and Chandler the guy who always did have Harry's back?

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2020, 05:39:31 PM »
Crazy theory time. Chandler was taken to the blackness of nothing.. he found his way back, but ended up in the MM timeline,

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2020, 05:39:53 PM »
Unless Chandler was sent back in time and is getting back via stasis in Demonreach, this may be why Jim is coy about the previous Wardens. Chandler contacted the White Council of his time (heís a historian so he would know) and finally got himself appointed as Warden and promptly went into stasis with important information for Harry. He hasnít been able to tell Harry yet because it would create a paradox, he would know this from him temporal studies.

He went back far enough that it was greater than a normal wizards lifespan, stasis was his only option, perhaps about 620 years? Even so Chandler may be much older.

Offline Avernite

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2020, 06:28:44 PM »
In fairness to Carlos I think he recent experience with the Winter Lady did damage him more than physically.  You cannot blame him if he thinks Molly is a monster now, and by extension, Harry.  How much does Luccio and the Senior Council know about how Carlos was injured?  Knowing it was just the excuse they needed to get rid of Harry.
Is it damage?

Everyone, Harry very much included, feared he'd become Mab's pet monster. Carlos and some of Harry's other friends were willing to extend the benefit of the doubt, but they all feared it.
Now, Carlos did the same thing for Molly - Winter Lady, but maybe still kind of the same person? And then Cold Case happens.

Cue Carlos concluding it was all wishful thinking that anyone could fall into Mab's clutches and not become a monster. All very logical and exactly what Harry expected going in.

Is it damage to conclude what Harry expected is really happening, on insufficient evidence? Or is it quite rational?

Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2020, 07:10:45 PM »
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Cue Carlos concluding it was all wishful thinking that anyone could fall into Mab's clutches and not become a monster. All very logical and exactly what Harry expected going in.

Except Harry doesn't know that it was Molly that injured Carlos.  And yes, while it is logical, it is still underhanded.  If Carlos really wanted Harry to talk to him, the time would have been on the beach, just the two of them, before the tracking dot.. Once that was done, trust went out the window.  And yes, it did lots of damage, Molly turning on him like she did, confirmed any fears he had about her or Harry turning into monsters.  The right person with an agenda gets a hold of it, it becomes easy to exploit and ultimately push Harry from the Council.

Chandler is interesting,  in Changes when Harry ran a fowl of Arrianna in Edinburgh, Luccio wrote a letter to Harry warning him not to return.  Enclosed with her letter was a longer letter of explanation written by Chandler, apparently according to Harry, he works very closely with Luccio. Which could explain the warning look from him to Harry, it may also have been a message from Luccio, also a warning not to trust any of the Wardens. 

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2020, 07:46:13 PM »
But as of White Night, Carlos didn't ask any questions.
I don't recall if he asked any specific questions, but he did call Harry out on keeping him in the dark and on Harry's suspicious behavior. I think Harry had an opportunity to forge a deeper friendship with Carlos there. It wasn't without risk. Carlos could have reported everything Harry said.

He went back far enough that it was greater than a normal wizards lifespan, stasis was his only option, perhaps about 620 years?
It doesn't even have to be that far back. Even if he went back a week, he could risk damaging the space time continuum. Now, we know it would have to be longer than that because it would have to have been a Warden prior to Harry.

Cue Carlos concluding it was all wishful thinking that anyone could fall into Mab's clutches and not become a monster. All very logical and exactly what Harry expected going in.
Except Harry doesn't know that it was Molly that injured Carlos.
I believe Avernite was referring to what Harry expected, not what happened to Carlos. Harry expected that He'd be a monster almost instantly after becoming Winter Knight. Hard to blame Carlos for thinking Harry was a monster after a few years.

Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2020, 08:53:54 PM »
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I believe Avernite was referring to what Harry expected, not what happened to Carlos. Harry expected that He'd be a monster almost instantly after becoming Winter Knight. Hard to blame Carlos for thinking Harry was a monster after a few years.
The point is, when he learned that Harry was running with a 250 pound vest, he gave Harry, "the look."  Harry says he'd seen it before, Carlos thinks he is a monster.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2020, 09:10:57 PM »
The point is, when he learned that Harry was running with a 250 pound vest, he gave Harry, "the look."  Harry says he'd seen it before, Carlos thinks he is a monster.
That's your point. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Carlos at least suspects Harry of being monstrous. The argument is that Carlos isn't being irrational or unreasonable in suspecting Harry at a certain point. Maybe even at any point.

Before he took the deal, and several times after, Harry thought it was only a matter of time before becoming the Winter Knight would turn him into a monster. Why is it unreasonable for Carlos to think that as well?

Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2020, 10:57:09 PM »
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That's your point. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Carlos at least suspects Harry of being monstrous. The argument is that Carlos isn't being irrational or unreasonable in suspecting Harry at a certain point. Maybe even at any point.

The point is, Carlos is still telling Harry at the end of Battle Ground, "If you had only talked to me, 60,000 people wouldn't have died."  That is total B.S., and not something friends say to one another.
The point is Carlos from the moment on the beach was acting like he was Harry's good friend, all the while putting a tracking dot on his wrist, a good friend doesn't do that and then expects his friend to "trust him, and talk to him."  There was talk of betrayal of Harry, there it is, Carlos betrayed Harry, I bet he is the one who testified against him as well.  If Carlos was concerned about the heavy vest and how the mantle was affecting Harry, he should have openly asked him on the beach.