Author Topic: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!  (Read 1572 times)

Online Mira

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2020, 10:13:20 PM »
Lasciel is a Denarian, so it is included in what I just said. How?
No, I don't think Lash or Lasciel had anything to do with Harry's reaction.  I think we've got that pretty well worked out.  Rage and grief triggered it, not unlike Michael's reaction to Father Douglas, who kidnapped his daughter.  But as you point out Dina, that gooses the Winter Knight's mantle that in turn dumps gasoline on the fire of Harry's rage..  It wasn't too hard for Harry to stop Michael, but it took two Holy Knights and finally the angel of the Sword of Faith to bring Harry back to his senses.

Rudolph is another matter..  He may be infected, that would account for what has been going on with him for a number of years.  However did the dominoes just happen to fall into place?  Or was it some cosmic set up;

1]  Things are going to hell in a hand basket, a huge giant is making toe jam out of the citizens.
2] Murphy who could barely walk and had to be pushed in a shopping cart like a baby in a pram, just a couple of hours or so ago, arrives on scene riding her motorbike with a bazooka on her back.. Okay, Mab was putting the juju on the area, no one was feeling any pain from injuries.. But freedom from pain doesn't insure the return of muscle strength and sudden healing of unrepaired tendons.. Yeah, Mab can heal a broken back, but she wasn't healing everyone.. Just Murphy?  Suddenly she is strong enough to sit a bike and bob and weave through the city streets at high speed?  Seem odd to you? We'll get back to that.
3] Murphy picks up Harry and they just happen to converge on the street where there is a daycare center that still has a bunch of stranded little kids and an elderly caretaker or two. Meanwhile Hunters and that big bad assed giant who wiped the floor with Vadderung's beserker Einherjan is headed straight for it. 
4] They knock on the door telling everyone to evacuate!  Low and behold if it isn't Bradley holding down the fort.. Oh forgot Sanya and Butters also just happen to be there.  Bradley hasn't forgotten his soul gaze with Harry, and both Murphy and Butters remind him of the closed meetings they used to have that he had declared were bullshit.. Bradley is now convinced they were true, he is now on team Harry.
5] Getting the kids to safety isn't going to be easy because we find out that Rudolph is inside with the kids.  He has not only soiled himself he has lost it mentally.  Bradley goes in, clocks him, then is seen leaving the building, Rudolph limp over his shoulder and his two year old in one arm an old lady with an infant in the other, oh and somewhere Bradley still has his gun.. In his holster maybe? Frankly I am not sure, his hands were full, but if it was in it's holster, I doubt he would have lost it in the chaos... 
6] Things get nasty because the giant has arrived along with more Hunters.  Some clever moves are made to delay the giant.. Bradley drops Rudolph and somehow his gun, distracted with trying to save his kid, just leaves it on the ground with in reach of Rudolph, who is awake, groggy, but awake.. He picks up the gun.
7] Murphy pulls out her trusty bazooka and takes aim at the giant... Meanwhile Rudolph is screaming things about Harry and Murphy and the law, waving that gun around... KABLOOIE!  Murphy blows the giant away, but there is no joy in Mudville, because Rudolph selected that minute to really get careless with his trigger finger... The gun goes off and Murphy goes down like she was pole axed..  You know the rest, but lets go back to number two...

Interesting don't you think?  Mab takes away everyone's pain, and it sorta looks like she selectively completely healed Murphy's injuries so she can ride in on her big Harley...  She saves the day, but ends up on the pavement dead.. Coincidence?  Or in the light of her long term plans with Lara, Mab sets it up so the one impediment, Murphy, is taken out?  How is that sports fans for a conspiracy theory. ::)

Offline Dina

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2020, 11:08:10 PM »
I have to reread for the details but I don't think anyone healed Murphy. In fact, I was wondering the whole time why Mab didn't heal Harry long before all that. Harry was the centerpiece of the plan, and they leave him going around, playing with Jotuns and things like that. Healing him would have at least increased his chances of survival. But Mab did not heal him. So my head cannon explanation for that was that healing someone takes more juice of Mab that she was ready to spend in a battle moment, when she would need all her power. So no, I don't think she would waste that power healing Murphy.

Now, perhaps Murphy took a deal with someone, but as she still looked hurt and in pain until Mab did her thing, and then Murphy was with Harry, I just think that she was not healing. Only working the best as she could, mainly in adrenaline (easier to do when there is no pain. Harry told us he could be seriously hurt if not paying attention, do to the mantle hiding his pain).

Another interesting thing is that there is a moment when Bradley leaves Murdoch that Harry had to actively convinced him to leave Rudolph. I believe that is important too but I don't know why.

And yes, it is very telling that Murphy and Harry randomly appeared in the street of the nursery of Bradley's child. I mean, that is a coincidence, right?
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There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2020, 01:05:30 AM »
Maybe if he was infected he might...  Consider Justine's act, what is to say that that startled look was also an act?
meh, then we're just trading one who dun it theory for another lol.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2020, 02:54:28 AM »
Something I was thinking about the mantle. Winter was as its weakest point in this book(s). Was the mantle weaker too?
Hugin and Munin seemed to think so.

However, I think that it would be unprecedented inasmuch as a firearm is entirely mechanical.  I don't believe that we've seen a wizard or other being hex purely mechanical machines.
Early in the series we saw it several times. The Beckets' guns in SF and the goons guns at the end of GP. It's mentioned in SK as well. I think Jim just kinda let that effect fall away. But I also think it was Rudolph's terrible trigger discipline that did the trick.

Rereading PT, I've noticed than when Butters touches Fidelacchius blade he feels  "a little warm", while when Harry does the same he feels "unconmfortably warm but bearable". I guess that is because Harry is more in the darker path than Butters. When he is in full rage mode, the sword actually burned him hard. It is just interesting, like a detector of evilness.
What did everyone else say? I was just thinking that if Butter felt a little warm and Michael and Sanya didn't, that might be part of the point of the whole three-way/Butters threatening Harry seen. Neither one of those things is something that a traditional Christian take on morality considers good, but it's definitely not fighting your friends, so you can murder someone not good.

Honestly I figure that Harry flipping to a completely destructive mindset and getting hellfire oozing out his staff instead of soulfire is more likely than Marcone ditching his force to track down Harry and subtly fuck him over via Rudolph.
Sure. I even agree. But the crazier theories are more fun.  ;D

That is a very reasonable explanation of what happened but we do not do reasonable here. We reject the reasonable explanation and go straight to the conspiracy theories.
Arjan gets it.

the fact that Justine is mortal and got infested, possible Rudolph is also.  This could be why he has been such an asshole over the years towards Murphy and Harry.  Now he may have been an asshole to begin with.
But he wasn't. He had an abrupt character change from GP to SK. Maybe he's been infected the whole time? I think it's more likely his exposure to the supernatural just broke him.

Rudy was being an idiot but he knows his own hardware.
Then why did he repeatedly violate trigger discipline?

The first time he had a character mention trigger discipline somebody was going to die from an accidental gunshot. It actually fits the character in this case. In his haste to ladder climb he bypassed the training.
I mean maybe not die, but he was definitely going to have a negligent discharge that ended badly.

Rudolph had probably had just about all the firearms training required of a police officer before he got bumped to S.I. Cops are notoriously bad at handling firearms, firearms in general. I was filing a police report and overheard my local PD's training on the AR-15. The instructor was misnaming parts of the gun. Murphy was the exception.

Maybe he used the term 'trigger discipline' before in the books, but not that I ever really noticed.
I'm pretty sure I would have noticed it. I notice whenever Harry uses the proper terms for firearms. He usually doesn't.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #94 on: October 18, 2020, 03:46:15 AM »
Mouse should have bit Cassius in the face.  Harry even calls it out so the reader won't miss it. Die alone!  Or Mab did it.  Pick your poison.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #95 on: October 18, 2020, 04:37:42 AM »
Quote
Then why did he repeatedly violate trigger discipline?
cause he was being an idiot?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #96 on: October 18, 2020, 04:46:33 AM »
cause he was being an idiot?
Because you have to drill these things into people until they do it without thinking otherwise it breaks down under stress. Rudolph was overstressed and breaking down.

He was also an example how some people react to seeing magic repeatedly, he was still in denial and his contact with reality was flaky.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:52:31 AM by Arjan »
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Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #97 on: October 18, 2020, 05:11:20 AM »
Because you have to drill these things into people until they do it without thinking otherwise it breaks down under stress. Rudolph was overstretched and breaking down.

He was also an example how some people react to seeing magic repeatedly, he was still in denial and his contact with reality was flaky.
doesn't change the oddity of his reaction. He knows what a gun is and does,

Offline Arjan

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #98 on: October 18, 2020, 05:39:47 AM »
doesn't change the oddity of his reaction. He knows what a gun is and does,
He was in denial about magic. He was trying to save innocent people from Murphy who was shooting at them with a rocket launcher. He lost all contact with reality. He was completely unhinged and poorly trained.

Maybe someone was messing with his brain or he saw an illusion but I do not think that is necessary to explain his behavior.

But this is the dresdenverse and Lascielís seven words where also not necessary to explain Harryís behavior in changes. They were necessary to explain Urielís reaction in Ghost story though.
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Offline Dina

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #99 on: October 18, 2020, 06:07:36 AM »
What did everyone else say? I was just thinking that if Butter felt a little warm and Michael and Sanya didn't, that might be part of the point of the whole three-way/Butters threatening Harry seen. Neither one of those things is something that a traditional Christian take on morality considers good, but it's definitely not fighting your friends, so you can murder someone not good.

None of them said anything about what they felt. Well, Michael said "interesting". The only person talking about warming was Butters, who says "a little warm". But we share Harry's thoughts, so we found that he felt it uncomfortably warm, like when you are doing dishes with the water too hot. Nothing else. That is what his inner monologue said. (It may be important that the mantle did not seem to do anything to numb the uncomfortable feeling).

But this is the dresdenverse and Lascielís seven words where also not necessary to explain Harryís behavior in changes. They were necessary to explain Urielís reaction in Ghost story though.

Exactly so.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #100 on: October 18, 2020, 06:46:07 AM »
He was in denial about magic. He was trying to save innocent people from Murphy who was shooting at them with a rocket launcher. He lost all contact with reality. He was completely unhinged and poorly trained.

Maybe someone was messing with his brain or he saw an illusion but I do not think that is necessary to explain his behavior.

But this is the dresdenverse and Lascielís seven words where also not necessary to explain Harryís behavior in changes. They were necessary to explain Urielís reaction in Ghost story though.
and he clearly didn't mean to shoot Murphy and was very clearly confused about why his gun misfired. His behavior after she was hit very much needs explaining.
I don't think he was poorly trained, nothing but speculation supports that, he was trained. He was also being influenced by someone throughout the series very much so, besides being directly under the influence of the two opposing psychic attacks.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 06:50:55 AM by The_Sibelis »

Offline Arjan

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #101 on: October 18, 2020, 09:14:07 AM »
and he clearly didn't mean to shoot Murphy and was very clearly confused about why his gun misfired. His behavior after she was hit very much needs explaining.
I don't think he was poorly trained, nothing but speculation supports that, he was trained. He was also being influenced by someone throughout the series very much so, besides being directly under the influence of the two opposing psychic attacks.
If he was well trained he could have made maybe a mistake once under pressure but not several times and probably more reading bradlyís comments. Good training means some things are done right without thinking automatically, muscle memory makes you do them. And he would recognize when he made an error. He was clearly badly trained in the use of firearms.

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Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #102 on: October 18, 2020, 10:29:34 AM »
If he was well trained he could have made maybe a mistake once under pressure but not several times and probably more reading bradlyís comments. Good training means some things are done right without thinking automatically, muscle memory makes you do them. And he would recognize when he made an error. He was clearly badly trained in the use of firearms.
he's been psychically damaged... actively under psychic assault too.. But I digress, none of that. None at all, has actual bearing on him not feeling a twitch of his finger and likely not feeling the trigger pull at all. Which is my point.

Online Mira

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #103 on: October 18, 2020, 10:45:46 AM »
Quote
he's been psychically damaged... actively under psychic assault too.. But I digress, none of that. None at all, has actual bearing on him not feeling a twitch of his finger and likely not feeling the trigger pull at all. Which is my point.

The man has totally lost it mentally, training, no matter how good is going to compensate for that. His finger and hand may have muscle memory, but they need the brain to power them. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!
« Reply #104 on: October 18, 2020, 10:50:33 AM »
The man has totally lost it mentally, training, no matter how good is going to compensate for that. His finger and hand may have muscle memory, but they need the brain to power them.
At the end sure but the bad trigger discipline was mentioned so many times in two books.
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