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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: TrueMonk on October 10, 2020, 11:34:22 PM
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I think the TWG is directly responsible for Murphy demise, I don't know why. Perhaps because she was not going to be happy ever again with so many injuries, perhaps because He needs that Harry losses her. I don't know. But Murphy did a wonderful thing, deserving a reward and perhaps Rest is the reward.
Why do I say that he is responsible, because too many "random" things led to Murphy's death. Bradley couldn't move with his daughter and Rudolph at the same time, so Harry and Murhpy asked him to leave Rudolph. The gun dropped to the floor and no one had the time to take it. Then Rudolph completely freak out. And Harry suddenly (not before that) discovered that he couldn't raise his arm for a Forzare. I just think there are too many "coincidences" and I only can see the TWG as having that control over reality.
Dina suggested in another thread that perhaps TWG is responsible for Murphs death. I think it is far more likely to be one of his opposites.
Can you think of anything that is not very elaborate or involves killing children that would be better at making Harry fall than exactly what happened here? It took two whole knights of the cross to counter it.
So I guess there is
Marcone/thorned nashiel
Nic
Lucifer or some demon
Because has the most to win (that I can figure out) and is the only one present in the book I am leaning toward Marcone. If Dresden had killed Rudolf the chances that he could/would team up with Marcone at some point are pretty good I think.
Also, it would be fitting if Marcone was the real killer of Murph.
If it had worked Marcone might end up with an ally and have avoided the eventual conflict with Dresden. Now that it did not, he is just still looking forward to that eventual conflict, even if Dresden finding outwould of course accelerate it.
What do you think?
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There are many beings that would love to set things that way for Dresden, but how many could actually do it? I mean, many of them (Nemesis included) could have altered Rudolph mind to have him do that, but I believe that no one but TWG could have arranged for Bradley needing to let Rudolph, the falling gun, Rudolph recovering of Bradley hit at the exact time to move, see Murphy using the bazooka, grabbing that gun and Harry's realizing just at that moment that he could not cast Forzare (If he had realized that before hand, he would have done other things, probably attracting all Rudolph fury over him). So yes, I think it was TWG. Why? I am not so sure, but Murphy said herself that she wouldn't be herself anymore, so the TWG arranged for a glorious, heroic moment before she died. And perhaps it acted as a test for Harry too.
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Death is always pretty random. And nobody likes it, so they put a face on it, this happened because. Rudolph is the anti Butters.
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To be fair I also like it and find it fitting if it is just Rudolf.
At the same time it just seems like too good a way to turn Harry to the dark side not to consider it could be someone actively trying.
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I have this idea... That it was Harry. Harry was conflicted by his love life with Murphy, it created doubt. There was a bunch of magical energy around already, Rudolph was in close proximity to Harry while Harry's emotions were being amped up... So when Rudolph looks at his gun afterwards and exclaims it's because the trigger didn't move, but the gun misfired. It misfired because of the aura of an angry wizard.
Why Harry? Cause when he finds out it'll absolutely destroy him in ways a random accident or blaming Rudolph cannot. And one thing Jim loves is torturing Harry.
*Or the die alone curse 👀 nearly the same day they finally do the deed and admit their love of each other she dies.. makes me wonder if after he gets married if Lara isn't going to have an accident too.. the death curse theory,
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*Or the die alone curse 👀 nearly the same day they finally do the deed and admit their love of each other she dies.. makes me wonder if after he gets married if Lara isn't going to have an accident too.. the death curse theory,
Can I upvote this by 1000?
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I found the Harry theory plausible, even when I don't share it.
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Long post short, I give it even odds between it's just something that happened and someone did it to influence Harry.
DeathEverything is always pretty random.
You're pretty guaranteed to run into a lot of things that happened because of the confluence of circumstances beyond your control. Ever been in a car wreck? What would have happened if you had left a minute earlier or later? We make tiny decisions with consequences beyond our ability to anticipate everyday. Only after the fact looking back do we ascribe meaning to why we left work five minutes late that day.
Of course this is fiction, so everything actually can and often does have that teleological meaning. Jim felt it was necessary for Murphy to die at this point in the series for whatever reason(s). Many people here felt her story arc was complete, but I think, form a doylist perspective, the main reason anything happens in this series is about Harry. It would make sense if it happened to push Harry in a certain direction. The reason, from a watsonian perspective, is probably Harry as often as it isn't.
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Reading the Revelations and Rereads thread, it occurred to me that Harry smelled "sulfur and brimstone" (I think that's the quote) shortly after Murphy was killed. Could Marcone have used some hellfire infused magic to make it happen?
That seems like too much of a stretch to me given that hellfire isn't very useful the the delicate kind of work I imagine would be required to sneak an entropy curse or whatever past Harry and that Marcone was also fighting a major battle that night, but who knows?
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Brimstone and Sulphur are one in the same and Harry smells it after Butters whacks him.
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Well, we got that warning from River in PT that the Genoskwa had survived being pancaked. Maybe he's branching out his revenge game to emotional suffering as well as gratuitous violence ... or maybe Lasciel got out too, and 'cheated' again to influence Rudolph. That seems more like her style.
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Well, we got that warning from River in PT that the Genoskwa had survived being pancaked. Maybe he's branching out his revenge game to emotional suffering as well as gratuitous violence ... or maybe Lasciel got out too, and 'cheated' again to influence Rudolph. That seems more like her style.
I was REALLY expecting him to show up as part of the invading force.
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Brimstone and Sulphur are one in the same and Harry smells it after Butters whacks him.
Gotta wonder why he smelled those after getting whacked.
I was REALLY expecting him to show up as part of the invading force.
That or he pops up soon in a short story after Battle Ground because he absolutely needs something to justify bringing him back from such an unambiguous death.
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Brimstone and Sulphur are one in the same.
That's why I remembered that both were used. I think the timing of Butters wacking him might be to throw us off. Or because it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Fallen.
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That's why I remembered that both were used. I think the timing of Butters wacking him might be to throw us off. Or because it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Fallen.
No but it could be a warning sign of Harry falling. Killing Rudolph would be the kind of choice that could trigger that and the smell of brimstone could be seen as a warning sign. A fallen Harry would have used hellfire in stead of soul fire.
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I can see someone shattered by a loved one dying in front of their eyes. But Harry is in a berserker rage all out of proportion to what is happening on the page. It isn't hard to see him killing Rudolph but attacking the Knights is an altogether different thing. The smell of Brimstone when Harry walks into the blade suggests something else at work given these passages.
“People can be evil,” Michael said. “They can be good. They can choose. That’s . . . part of what makes us people.” He shook his head. “I came to recognize the presence of evil over the years. True darkness is very different than mere rage or terror or greed, or desire for vengeance. I’ve met only a handful of mortals who were truly evil. Nicodemus and his like.”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 178). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I nodded. “Angels are creatures of absolutes. You’d have to be pretty darned absolute to qualify as evil—or good—by their standards. It’s why they like Michael so much.”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 178). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
“Your Sword isn’t going to be of any use against mortals,” I said quietly. “It’s better than ever at handling monsters, but if one of them hires a bruiser from the outfit, that guy is going to bounce you off the ceiling.”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 179). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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It is definately very interesting.
It could be that if he lets the winter mantle all in then he qualifies as "true darkness". But it does not seem entirely likely to me.
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I can see someone shattered by a loved one dying in front of their eyes. But Harry is in a berserker rage all out of proportion to what is happening on the page. It isn't hard to see him killing Rudolph but attacking the Knights is an altogether different thing. The smell of Brimstone when Harry walks into the blade suggests something else at work given these passages.
What I find interesting, is the way the paragraph is written just when the burn happens you have ask; is Harry smelling sulfur and brimstone, or is he imagining it because the burn is a physical reminder that what he was about to do is wrong?
page 212
The stench of my own flesh filled my nose, somehow laced with the scent of sulfur and brimstone.
The interesting word is somehow, that implies doubt, is it or isn't it? Is the evil scent truly coming from Harry, or is he imagining it? When one gets a sudden severe burn, the brain usually isn't about sorting out what the nose is smelling, especially when it is your own flesh charring.
It goes back to what Michael said about the difference between truly evil men, and those who do evil out of anger etc. Harry had very good reasons for acting the way he did in the wake of Murphy's murder, but that doesn't make his actions right, and could send him down a very dark road. I think this is what the Sword was warning him about, that is why he thought he could smell the sulfur and the brimstone, "this act will lead to you becoming a monster." It stopped Harry in his tracts, he doesn't want to become that man, he went down that road with Lasciel and rejected it. If it wanted to, the Sword easily could have cut off his arm, it didn't, but it did send a very pointed warning.
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It says what it says. And if you think that is a rational outcome of loss then we have very different views on the issue. And this is the second time in the series that it has happened.
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It says what it says. And if you think that is a rational outcome of loss then we have very different views on the issue. And this is the second time in the series that it has happened.
No one said it was rational, it was a totally emotional response. Butters and Sanya know that, the Sword knows that, that is why the warning burn and it didn't take his fricking arm off.. As Michael would say, "it wasn't a response of true darkness." It is hard to say how one will act upon seeing a loved one dying violently and needlessly at the hands of someone. What the head and heart say and trigger might be two opposing things.. The head may say, "hold back, this isn't right." But the heart might be screaming, "kill the bastard.." Both may feel they are very good reasons..
By the first, if you mean when Harry did over kill on the ghouls who murdered and half ate those kids. It also was an emotional response. he also had a fallen angel's shadow in his head at the time, and no Holy Knights to try and stop him. Now Harry has rationalized that response, but he is also ashamed of his response just as he is about going after Rudolph. Ashamed means remorse, which means hopefully trying to learn something from the experience.
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It doesn't fit with my understanding of human behavior. YMMV. In Blood Rites when Harry learns that Raith killed his mother, Eb has to hurt his burned hand to stop his blind rage. The rage in BG is almost a note for note recreation of the event in Blood Rites.
Harry," Ebenezar snapped. "Harry, let go. You can't handle that kind of power. You'll kill yourself if you try."
I didn't care about that, either. The power felt too good—too strong. I wanted it. I wanted Raith to pay. I wanted him to suffer, screaming, and then die for what he had done to me. And I was strong enough to make it happen. I had the power and the resolve to bring such a tide of magic against him that he would be utterly destroyed. I would lay him low and make him howl for mercy before I tore him apart. He deserved nothing less.
And then fire blossomed in my hand again, so sudden and sharp that my back convulsed into an agonized arch, and I fell to the floor. I couldn't scream. The pain washed my fury away like dandelions before a flash flood. I looked around wildly and saw the old man's broad, calloused hand clamped down over my burned, lightly bandaged flesh with bruising strength. When he saw my eyes he released my hand, his expression sickened.
I assumed on first read that it was the mantle but it doesn't read like the other instances.
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It doesn't fit with my understanding of human behavior. YMMV. In Blood Rites when Harry learns that Raith killed his mother, Eb has to hurt his burned hand to stop his blind rage. The rage in BG is almost a note for note recreation of the event in Blood Rites.I assumed on first read that it was the mantle but it doesn't read like the other instances.
It is call a HUMAN REACTION!! Michael, in the Warrior was on tract to beat Father Douglas to death with a baseball bat for kidnapping his daughter. He went berserk, yes, saintly Michael went nuts when he found out and proceeded to do serious harm to the man who did it. Harry stopped him and when he came back to his senses Michael thanked him for stopping him. This is what happened in Battle Ground, Harry just witnessed the woman he loved get blown away, not in an honorable fight with the enemy, but because some crazed idiot with a gun couldn't contain himself. Harry lost it, when wizard lose it,it can be very very bad, it finally took a nice burn from the Sword of Faith to bring him back to his senses, he was deeply ashamed, both Butters and Sanya understood what had happened and forgave him. Heck how would you react if you found out your mother was murdered? And it was someone you actually knew? Don't ya think you might get just a bit emotional about it?
That is what scared Harry so about Eb, when Eb killed his double. As I said, it is very bad for everyone when wizards lose it... The Blackstaff is never supposed to lose it, ever... Eb did.
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You seem to believe that anything Harry does is okay. And I'm okay with it being that way for you. But not so for me.
As a character I understand the rage, but it's the underlying calculation that would scare any reasonable person. I'm trying to understand why Jim wrote it this way, not arguing that Harry should eat electrons on death row.
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You seem to believe that anything Harry does is okay. And I'm okay with it being that way for you. But not so for me.
As a character I understand the rage, but it's the underlying calculation that would scare any reasonable person. I'm trying to understand why Jim wrote it this way, not arguing that Harry should eat electrons on death row.
Because he wants Harry to have flaws people can identify with. Of course an emotional person who looses control is terrifying.
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Harry is exhausted, in extreme emotional distress, and hurting badly.
His free will is compromised by the Winter Mantle at that point.
His actions and thought processes are the exact "embrace Winter" that Mab discusses.
The angel intervened just the right amount to allow Harry to make a choice about what he did to Rudolph in spite of supernatural pressure to go full-on vengeance mode.
That cold calculation is Winter.
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Negative, that cold calculation is the result of learning to fight off the winter mantle.. to be more.. Mab like, in the end.
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They are very explicit: Embracing the mantle eliminates emotional pain. Fighting the mantle allows you to feel what you are doing.
Compare Harry about to kill Rudolph with when he unleashes the mantle fighting Maeve. His assessment of Fix shows the exact same cold rationality.
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No... Harry is explicit, embracing the mantle does NOTHING for the emotional pain. He specifically mentions this after he loses Murphy.
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HIS pain, but his empathy is set to zero.
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You seem to believe that anything Harry does is okay. And I'm okay with it being that way for you. But not so for me.
As a character I understand the rage, but it's the underlying calculation that would scare any reasonable person. I'm trying to understand why Jim wrote it this way, not arguing that Harry should eat electrons on death row.
No, I don't, and if Harry had killed Rudolph it wouldn't have been okay, all I am saying is his reaction was understandable, and actually quite normal. I am not sure what you mean by calculation.
Because he wants Harry to have flaws people can identify with. Of course an emotional person who looses control is terrifying.
Yes, and pushed under the right conditions anyone can lose it.. Michael in The Warrior, the kidnapping and submitting his child to that kind of terror was a bridge too far.. He lost it and would have brutally, coldly, and messily beaten Father Douglas to death if Harry hadn't stopped him. Michael isn't an evil man, on the contrary he is rather a saintly one, but he is capable of being quite brutal if pushed too far.
What makes it difficult is it is hard to argue with the love and the paternal instincts that triggered the violent reaction in Michael, when his child was harmed. Something would be wrong if he didn't feel them, yet at the same time it is wrong to act on what his impulse to harm the man who harmed his child. I guess that is where the saying comes from,"When emotions run high, it is hoped that cooler heads prevail." Michael got lucky, Harry got lucky, both had friends with cool heads who stopped something they'd regret later.
HIS pain, but his empathy is set to zero.
I think you are very wrong there, Harry feels a great deal of empathy. However in the moment that Rudolph killed Murphy, isn't exactly the time where one would feel for Rudolph.. That might come later... Another problem with the story, nothing about why suddenly Rudolph was so after Murphy and Harry. Bradley was even at a loss..
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I assume we will see that in future books, but yes, I wanted some answers about that in this book.
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Harry generally feels empathy, but not in Winter Mantle sociopath mode.
His analysis of Fix in Cold Days and analysis of Sanya and Butters in Battle Grounds are sharply parallel.
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Harry generally feels empathy, but not in Winter Mantle sociopath mode.
His analysis of Fix in Cold Days and analysis of Sanya and Butters in Battle Grounds are sharply parallel.
Oh? Did you not catch him standing up to the members of the Accords demanding that they help the people of Chicago who got hurt? When he pinned the little bean pins on his volunteers saying if they ever needed him he'd help? The pain he felt as his volunteers died under his banner? That is empathy.
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Oh? Did you not catch him standing up to the members of the Accords demanding that they help the people of Chicago who got hurt? When he pinned the little bean pins on his volunteers saying if they ever needed him he'd help? The pain he felt as his volunteers died under his banner? That is empathy.
But if he completely embraces the winter mantle, the empathy goes away. He is fighting the mantle in order to stay the same Harry, not a monster with no empathy.
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But if he completely embraces the winter mantle, the empathy goes away. He is fighting the mantle in order to stay the same Harry, not a monster with no empathy.
Yes, he says Carlos was right, the Accord members are monsters, but he isn't. Carlos also doesn't tell him what happened with Molly, he just says of his condition, he ran into a monster.
Now it could be that Harry can fight off the Winter Mantle not just because he is star born, but because of Malcolm. He inherited Malcolm's good heart, he will always feel empathy.
For the record, I don't believe that Molly is a monster either and if it can be avoided she will because of her father and mother. Actually I think empathy goes away with humanity, Mab has lived so long that she has lost most of her humanity.
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And Titania, doe she have Empathy?
There are so many types of monsters and in a way Uriel is a monster too. He has empathy but most of the time with all his power he can do nothing. Duty triumps everything.
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Oh? Did you not catch him standing up to the members of the Accords demanding that they help the people of Chicago who got hurt? When he pinned the little bean pins on his volunteers saying if they ever needed him he'd help? The pain he felt as his volunteers died under his banner? That is empathy.
Mira, he wasn't embracing the mantle then.
He specifically was refusing to embrace Winter with the banner. Do you just skip sentences? Mab compliments him on it.
When Harry gives the Mantle unfettered control, he changes.
Edit: Seriously, how could you even argue he was full Winter Mantle in control in any of those scenes?
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Mira, he wasn't embracing the mantle then.
He specifically was refusing to embrace Winter with the banner. Do you just skip sentences? Mab compliments him on it.
When Harry gives the Mantle unfettered control, he changes.
Edit: Seriously, how could you even argue he was full Winter Mantle in control in any of those scenes?
No need for you to be insulting. >:( He even felt sorry for Ethniu as he bound her to be shipped off. Harry uses the mantle, he has learned to control it, he is beginning to get a handle on when it is the mantle talking, and does his best to stamp it back down. The mantle isn't in control all of the time, Harry doesn't let it be in control. Harry, the man, has empathy, that is what I am talking about. The Winter Mantle doesn't, but it can be very useful because it doesn't. But the Winter Mantle isn't Harry, and Harry isn't the Mantle. At the end of the day Harry is a wizard, a strong willed man who is a vessel for the Winter Knight's mantle, that man has empathy.
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Mira, he wasn't embracing the mantle then.
He specifically was refusing to embrace Winter with the banner. Do you just skip sentences? Mab compliments him on it.
When Harry gives the Mantle unfettered control, he changes.
Edit: Seriously, how could you even argue he was full Winter Mantle in control in any of those scenes?
That was uncalled for :-\
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That ran straight into the gutter.
@Mira
The function of your mind is to maintain control. Harry is a good guy and good guys never shit stomp their friends. The type of guy that can wander so far over the hedge that he can do that is a danger to anyone around him. And in the moment empathy wasn't even in the room. However he is a fictional character. So I assume Jim did it for a reason. The smell of Fire and Brimstone comes from the wound, you have to torture the language to read it otherwise. But Brimstone in the books context is of the Fallen and Lucifer, not Winter. And never once in the scene does he call on Winter magic. Just his own magic.
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Harry generally feels empathy, but not in Winter Mantle sociopath mode.
His analysis of Fix in Cold Days and analysis of Sanya and Butters in Battle Grounds are sharply parallel.
The point of the fight with Fix was that he was suppressing the way the mantle was pushing him to fight on instinct (charge & kill) by hiding behind a veil and disabling Fix with the least possible harm. Full sociopath was when he tried to fully use the mantle against Maeve.
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No need for you to be insulting. >:( He even felt sorry for Ethniu as he bound her to be shipped off. Harry uses the mantle, he has learned to control it, he is beginning to get a handle on when it is the mantle talking, and does his best to stamp it back down. The mantle isn't in control all of the time, Harry doesn't let it be in control. Harry, the man, has empathy, that is what I am talking about. The Winter Mantle doesn't, but it can be very useful because it doesn't. But the Winter Mantle isn't Harry, and Harry isn't the Mantle. At the end of the day Harry is a wizard, a strong willed man who is a vessel for the Winter Knight's mantle, that man has empathy.
This was insulting:
Oh? Did you not catch him standing up to the members of the Accords demanding that they help the people of Chicago who got hurt
Given I said, adding bold:
Harry generally feels empathy, but not in Winter Mantle sociopath mode.
I'm sorry, but there's a nasty habit of taking only part of what's said.
Also, @Dina, see above:
That was uncalled for
It's exactly what was done
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Play nice people... It's all fun and games until someone looses and eye 😉
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Harry generally feels empathy, but not in Winter Mantle sociopath mode.
No, but an Ak-47 doesn't feel empathy either, nor is it a sociopath, it is a weapon of great power. The mantle doesn't think, it has no emotions, it cannot be a sociopath, it is a huge bundle of adrenaline. The problem is many of the guys that have held it were sociopaths with weak wills, like Slate. Harry is neither and learning to control it and remain him has been difficult. Harry lost it when Rudolph kill Murphy, the mantle had nothing to do with that, that was pure emotion.. But it wasn't in any way the act of a sociopath, a sociopath by definition is;
noun: sociopath; plural noun: sociopaths
a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.
The one thing Harry doesn't lack is conscience, once he came back to himself he felt remorse.
Yes, it was his imagination what he thought he smelled because he had almost did an evil deed, but he didn't, he was stopped. Do you think the odor of sulfur and brimstone was coming off of Michael's sweat when he was trying to beat Father Douglas to death with a baseball bat? He was doing an evil deed, but Harry stopped him before it was done.
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Play nice people... It's all fun and games until someone looses and eye 😉
You are right. (Also, did you check your inbox lately?)
Mira, even when the mantle is not a person, I see it different than a weapon, unless you are talking of the One Ring. Because it is a thing that corrupts and tries to weaken the will of the one using it, until it conforms to some "ideal". I am sure that, for the mantle, an ideal WK would be vicious, killing people, raping people, chasing and punishing. The very stereotypical mucho macho probably. But that wouldn't be so useful to Winter as it is someone like Harry controlling the mantle. That is why Mab chose him (at least one of the reasons). Because she knew he won't become controlled by the mantle but the other way around. And she wants that, not for altruistic reasons but because it is in Winter's best interests. And perhaps in humanity's too.
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You are right. (Also, did you check your inbox lately?)
Mira, even when the mantle is not a person, I see it different than a weapon, unless you are talking of the One Ring. Because it is a thing that corrupts and tries to weaken the will of the one using it, until it conforms to some "ideal". I am sure that, for the mantle, an ideal WK would be vicious, killing people, raping people, chasing and punishing. The very stereotypical mucho macho probably. But that wouldn't be so useful to Winter as it is someone like Harry controlling the mantle. That is why Mab chose him (at least one of the reasons). Because she knew he won't become controlled by the mantle but the other way around. And she wants that, not for altruistic reasons but because it is in Winter's best interests. And perhaps in humanity's too.
Not like the one Ring, but in the wrong host the mantle runs amuck because it stimulates all the violent thoughts, and worse yet lends physical strength to the host. If the host is weak willed as Slate evidently was, the mantle gained control, and he became a monster. I agree Mab wanted Harry because with his will, he can control the mantle. Though she may order him to kill, a mindless killer is no use to her, or worse, is no more than a mediocre Knight.
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Well, details may vary but I think you get what I meant. It is not a nuclear weapon, it' s more than a powerful weapon. Is a powerful weapon who actively interferes with the mind of the person using it.
Something I was thinking about the mantle. Winter was as its weakest point in this book(s). Was the mantle weaker too? So it can be even stronger, both in raw power and in its corrupting ability?
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Well, details may vary but I think you get what I meant. It is not a nuclear weapon, it' s more than a powerful weapon. Is a powerful weapon who actively interferes with the mind of the person using it.
Something I was thinking about the mantle. Winter was as its weakest point in this book(s). Was the mantle weaker too? So it can be even stronger, both in raw power and in its corrupting ability?
That is an interesting idea, but I don't think the Knight's mantle works exactly like that of the Queens. What is interesting is the difference between the Winter and the Summer Knight's mantles.
Maybe because he was a changeling to begin with if I remember correctly, but Fix doesn't seem to be struggling like Harry, though when he needs to Fix can be just as deadly.
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To be honest, I had been thinking if it's not the opposite way. If you are a decent person, it will be easy to resist the urge of harm someone that the urge of painting a tableau or fixing a car. But if you are painting not because you sincerely want it but because the mantle gives you the sudden desire to do it, aren't you losing some of your free will anyway? And almost without realizing it?
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Fu#$, Fu#$, Fu#$!? Ok so I had a horrible no good probably right idea.. someone on the WC is a denarian.. and they caused the misfire to get Harry to outright murder someone with magic. That's the big set up for kicking him out of the council, they had to use some jank turtle neck excuse because Harry was stopped from killing Rudolph... But considering they were keeping tabs on Harry's actions I just smell a plot against the repub-... Er, against Harry. It wasn't about hurting Harry, it was about what it would make him do.. we already know the fallen out master manipulators, from them causing Harry's suicide... I see this as the exact same sort of scheme. Which makes the arrival of the KotC have all that much more meaning.. someone set Harry up to lose control..
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Fu#$, Fu#$, Fu#$!? Ok so I had a horrible no good probably right idea.. someone on the WC is a denarian.. and they caused the misfire to get Harry to outright murder someone with magic. That's the big set up for kicking him out of the council, they had to use some jank turtle neck excuse because Harry was stopped from killing Rudolph... But considering they were keeping tabs on Harry's actions I just smell a plot against the repub-... Er, against Harry. It wasn't about hurting Harry, it was about what it would make him do.. we already know the fallen out master manipulators, from them causing Harry's suicide... I see this as the exact same sort of scheme. Which makes the arrival of the KotC have all that much more meaning.. someone set Harry up to lose control..
Probably Namshiel. He wants to succeed where Anduriel failed. To corrupt Harry and then destroy him.
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My guess would be that the mantle of the winter knight is also at its weakest at mid summer. Why would it be different that the queen's in this way?
The the knight interference also points to the denarians in some way.
Killing a mortal is of course quite a bit further than what Morgan did (pushing him in his apartment), but things are also more desperate now. Could it be the Merlin?
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My guess would be that the mantle of the winter knight is also at its weakest at mid summer. Why would it be different that the queen's in this way?
The the knight interference also points to the denarians in some way.
Killing a mortal is of course quite a bit further than what Morgan did (pushing him in his apartment), but things are also more desperate now. Could it be the Merlin?
No, this was different. Was especially about moral corruption. I think the knights would have tried to stop him if he tried to kill him with his bare hands and the Merlin had no reason to belief Harry would use magic to kill him. Without the use of magic to kill Rudolf the white council would not have a case. It would have been a waste of time.
Besides I do not think the Merlin knows how important Murphy was for Harry.
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That is a good point, I guess it is back to Marcone/Namshiel. He definately knows how important Murph is to him and their history with Rudolph.
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To be honest, I had been thinking if it's not the opposite way. If you are a decent person, it will be easy to resist the urge of harm someone that the urge of painting a tableau or fixing a car. But if you are painting not because you sincerely want it but because the mantle gives you the sudden desire to do it, aren't you losing some of your free will anyway? And almost without realizing it?
That is a very good point, and it is why weak willed Knights become monsters. Remember back
to Cold Days, every time Harry was attracted to a pretty girl, the mantle was screaming for him to jump her. It wasn't just mental it was physical as well, Harry had a horrible time with it until he found that physical exercise tamps it down somewhat.
No, this was different. Was especially about moral corruption. I think the knights would have tried to stop him if he tried to kill him with his bare hands and the Merlin had no reason to belief Harry would use magic to kill him. Without the use of magic to kill Rudolf the white council would not have a case. It would have been a waste of time.
Besides I do not think the Merlin knows how important Murphy was for Harry.
I agree, and with the exception of Namshiel/Marcone there were no Denarians mentioned anyway. And for once oddly the Knights of the Cross and a Denarian were fighting on the same side, though I doubt that that Butters or Sanya were aware of it.
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Yes, it was his imagination what he thought he smelled because he had almost did an evil deed, but he didn't, he was stopped. Do you think the odor of sulfur and brimstone was coming off of Michael's sweat when he was trying to beat Father Douglas to death with a baseball bat? He was doing an evil deed, but Harry stopped him before it was done.
What I think is that Michael didn't attack Harry.
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It's possible that Harry's "Wizard Aura" had an effect on Rudolph's gun. However, I think that it would be unprecedented inasmuch as a firearm is entirely mechanical. I don't believe that we've seen a wizard or other being hex purely mechanical machines.
Harry's revolver never malfunctioned because it is purely mechanical. Harry has stated that he's had issues with semi-autos, but that does not have to be a wizard thing. Semi-autos can jam. My Sig can jam.
The Blue Beetle, McCoy's truck and the Munster Mobile MOSTLY function for them. That's because while they are old and mostly mechanical, they do have some electronics.
Given the lengthy setup throughout BG that Rudolph was reckless, stupid, cowardly and had bad trigger discipline, I think that we shouldn't look further than this. Bradley remarked on it several times. Bradley also stepped to the side of the door at the childcare place -- because he was scarred that Rudolph would shoot him through the door.
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Given the lengthy setup throughout BG that Rudolph was reckless, stupid, cowardly and had bad trigger discipline, I think that we shouldn't look further than this. Bradley remarked on it several times. Bradley also stepped to the side of the door at the childcare place -- because he was scarred that Rudolph would shoot him through the door.
This has been the description of Rudolph all through the series.
What I think is that Michael didn't attack Harry.
No, but Douglas hadn't murdered Michael's little girl in front of his eyes either. And lets be clear, it wasn't easy for Harry to get through to Michael.
The Warrior
Again the bat swept down, and Douglas fell senseless to the sand. Michael stood over the man for a moment, his entire body shaking, the bat still upraised. "Michael," I said quietly. "He hurt my little girl, Harry." He said with barely repressed rage."He isn't going to hurt her now," I said. "He hurt my little girl." "Michael," I said, gently, "you can't. If this is how it has to be, I'll do it. But you can't man."
So as I said, imagine if Michael's little girl had been murdered before his eyes and if he was also on the edge of exhaustion from battle.. Do you think Michael wouldn't have tried to go through Harry to get to Douglas? Also notice that Harry didn't want this good man, his friend, to become a monster, he offered to take his place.
When it was over, Michael's reaction and Harry's reaction is much the same to what they almost did.
Again, The Warrior
'Easy,easy," I told him. "We're done here. We're done." He stared for another long, silent moment. He lowered the bat, very slowly, and bowed his head. He stood there for a minute, his chest heaving, and dropped the bat. He settled down onto the sand with a wince. I got up and collected Fidelacchius, returning it to it's sheath. "Thank you," Michael said quietly. He offered me Amoracchious'shilt.
Harry did hurt his friends who were trying to stop him, so his shame was greater. However like Michael he thanked both Sanya and Butters for stopping him.
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On one hand you use Michael as an example similar to Harry. And then you say it isn't. I'm unsure how to think about that.
I'm going to leave it at this. You think it's understandable behavior when under high levels of stress to attack anybody or anything that stands between you and the source of your stress. This isn't normally how the world works for humans. And when it does it generally indicates a mental health issue.
I'm not staking a moral position about right or wrong but asking the question, does it align with previous behavior by Harry? And taking a position that it does not.
I'm saying that this behavior is either a product of the mantle, a product of Mab's sending, or something else. I favor something else. Because Jim signals something by using the smell of Brimstone.
He makes an error when he writes Sulfur and Brimstone since they are the same thing, I think rather that it should have been Fire and Brimstone.
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Denarian meddling is quite possible.
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Denarian meddling is quite possible.
Yes, or Harry is so ashamed by what he did, he imagines he smells something from the burn. Notice he doesn't dismiss it, he brings it up again and again, he knows it was a warning, he knows how close he was to going over the cliff. If the order truly came from evil inside of him, I don't think he'd feel such remorse.
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I see no reason to think that Harry is imagining things. If there is a smell, there is a smell. Specially sulfur, you cannot really confuse it with anything (but rotten eggs, I guess). I don't know what it means, but I do think Harry's loss of control was truly fueled by the mantle. I mean, of course he was angry and seeing red by himself, but I think that without the mantle he wouldn't have actually attacked the Knights (except for a pushing or something like that). His anger at them was the mantle furious because they were denying it its prey.
Back to the smell, of course it hints infernal. Denarian, Lucifer agent, whatever, but I think the simplest explanation is that the evil in Harry became so bad that the angel of the sword considered it demoniac. And it produced the smell.
Rereading PT, I've noticed than when Butters touches Fidelacchius blade he feels "a little warm", while when Harry does the same he feels "unconmfortably warm but bearable". I guess that is because Harry is more in the darker path than Butters. When he is in full rage mode, the sword actually burned him hard. It is just interesting, like a detector of evilness.
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I see no reason to think that Harry is imagining things. If there is a smell, there is a smell. Specially sulfur, you cannot really confuse it with anything (but rotten eggs, I guess). I don't know what it means, but I do think Harry's loss of control was truly fueled by the mantle. I mean, of course he was angry and seeing red by himself, but I think that without the mantle he wouldn't have actually attacked the Knights (except for a pushing or something like that). His anger at them was the mantle furious because they were denying it its prey.
Back to the smell, of course it hints infernal. Denarian, Lucifer agent, whatever, but I think the simplest explanation is that the evil in Harry became so bad that the angel of the sword considered it demoniac. And it produced the smell.
Rereading PT, I've noticed than when Butters touches Fidelacchius blade he feels "a little warm", while when Harry does the same he feels "unconmfortably warm but bearable". I guess that is because Harry is more in the darker path than Butters. When he is in full rage mode, the sword actually burned him hard. It is just interesting, like a detector of evilness.
Yes, Butters has lived a purer life than Harry has, but if the Sword really thought Harry was evil, it would have simply cut his hand off at the wrist, end of story. It didn't, it burned him and it instantly stopped him in mid-rage, guess it took an angel to do that. What is weird about what he smells or thinks he smells is the word, somehow, that says Harry isn't sure. As you said, one should smell it or not, not think that it is "somehow laced" with sulfur and brimstone. He was seeing himself through Rudolph's eyes, the sulfur and brimstone, would be something that Rudolph could easily imagine about Harry. Not saying it is, just throwing it out there. The burn also begins just above his shield bracelet.. I also agree the mantle magnified Harry's rage, that is why he beat up Sanya and Butters to try to get to Rudolph. Butters put it in perspective, they need Harry, "the good man." Not the killer of Rudolph.
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I agree, and yes, the "somehow" is weird.
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some·how (sŭm′hou′)
adv.
In a way not specified, understood, or known.
Most people would parse it as saying "I smell it among other smells but don't understand how it got there.". His imagination could be the source since it isn't specified, but it just moves the question downstream. Why would he imagine it?
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Rudolph is the anti Butters.
This.
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Most people would parse it as saying "I smell it among other smells but don't understand how it got there.". His imagination could be the source since it isn't specified, but it just moves the question downstream. Why would he imagine it?
Sense of guilt and shame, not just for trying to kill Rudolph, but for hurting his friends who were trying to stop him. Harry knows how close he came to doing evil just then, he also has experience with one of the Fallen, he had her shadow dancing in his head for a couple of years or so.. His staff used to glow with Hell Fire, the odor would remind him of that, it would reinforce the very real warning the burn from the Sword gave him. "Do you really want to go down this road again?" From Harry's reaction, the answer is, no, he does not.
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What I mean is, Murphy was killed because of White Council interference.. like she was one of the Merlin's 3 plans or something.they are actively looking for a good reason to throw Harry out, violating the first law. the turtle necks was a lame excuse.. they wanted him to murder Rudolph so they could have an iron clad case against him..
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What I mean is, Murphy was killed because of White Council interference.. like she was one of the Merlin's 3 plans or something.they are actively looking for a good reason to throw Harry out, violating the first law. the turtle necks was a lame excuse.. they wanted him to murder Rudolph so they could have an iron clad case against him..
I doubt that there is a conspiracy, there are lots of reasons to believe there has to be one. But in the end I think it comes down to a paranoid subpar detective with a loose trigger finger.
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I doubt that there is a conspiracy, there are lots of reasons to believe there has to be one. But in the end I think it comes down to a paranoid subpar detective with a loose trigger finger.
Nobody looks at their gun and says Wtf!? From a misfire, unless they didn't pull the trigger and they know it.
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Nobody looks at their gun and says Wtf!? From a misfire, unless they didn't pull the trigger and they know it.
You do when you weren't intending to fire and got caught out by a combo of shitty trigger discipline and panic.
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You do when you weren't intending to fire and got caught out by a combo of shitty trigger discipline and panic.
Theoretically it could an invisible Namshiel with host messing things up. Of course Ockham would say that was not necessary with Rudolph's trigger discipline but brimstone.
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Theoretically it could an invisible Namshiel with host messing things up. Of course Ockham would say that was not necessary with Rudolph's trigger discipline but brimstone.
Honestly I figure that Harry flipping to a completely destructive mindset and getting hellfire oozing out his staff instead of soulfire is more likely than Marcone ditching his force to track down Harry and subtly fuck him over via Rudolph.
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Honestly I figure that Harry flipping to a completely destructive mindset and getting hellfire oozing out his staff instead of soulfire is more likely than Marcone ditching his force to track down Harry and subtly fuck him over via Rudolph.
But that contradicts the Harry is the centre of the universe theory!
Ok Lasciel. She likes messing with Harry's instincts and she has not given up yet. If the genoskwa is running around she can have a new host as well.
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Honestly I figure that Harry flipping to a completely destructive mindset and getting hellfire oozing out his staff instead of soulfire is more likely than Marcone ditching his force to track down Harry and subtly fuck him over via Rudolph.
Yeah, lets face it, everyone, EVERYONE, was busy repelling the Fomor attack and the Titan, including the Denarians, well, Namshiel.. It was a real "enemy of my enemy is my friend" shit fest. So no, I don't see a conspiracy, unless, given what HWWBeside said, and the fact that Justine is mortal and got infested, possible Rudolph is also. This could be why he has been such an asshole over the years towards Murphy and Harry. Now he may have been an asshole to begin with, which was the opening they needed. This would be a good reason why his paranoia/insanity towards them cranked up from 7 to 11 on an 8 point scale, just before the Peace Talks and the attack.. It also would explain why Bradley was at a loss as to why as A.I. was investigating civilians and not homicide if that was what they were looking into. That was distraction number one. Killing Murphy would be one more distraction to put Harry off his game so the Outsiders could gain access to Demonreach and it's inmates.
While we are at it and talking distractions, someone at Senior Council level is infested, revisiting kicking Harry off the Council was yet another distraction... Since that member succeeded, it says the distractions are going to keep on coming.
But that contradicts the Harry is the centre of the universe theory!
Harry isn't the center of the universe, however he is the Warden of Demonreach and his control has allowed Alfred to do his duties as the keeper of the inmates and defense of the island in a way that he couldn't before, without a custodian. Nemesis wants access to that island very badly for obvious reasons, so for that reason, Harry has a huge bullseye on his skinny behind.
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You do when you weren't intending to fire and got caught out by a combo of shitty trigger discipline and panic.
Na, then you get an oh God wtf have I done moment. Something about Rudy's reaction just doesn't jive right. Rudy was being an idiot but he knows his own hardware, it's not mundane death and destruction he's turned a blind eye to. I just can't imagine anyone in his shoes immediately looking towards the gun in such utter surprise. He understands guns kill people, I'd wager most people who squeeze one off my accident are aware of the reflexive twitch when it happens. I'm usually aware when I twitch even if I can't help doing so.
I can't believe Rudolph just automatically assumes the gun is screwed up without reasoning.
That is an interesting theory about Harry starting to call hellfire though..
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Na, then you get an oh God wtf have I done moment. Something about Rudy's reaction just doesn't jive right. Rudy was being an idiot but he knows his own hardware, it's not mundane death and destruction he's turned a blind eye to. I just can't imagine anyone in his shoes immediately looking towards the gun in such utter surprise. He understands guns kill people, I'd wager most people who squeeze one off my accident are aware of the reflexive twitch when it happens. I'm usually aware when I twitch even if I can't help doing so.
I can't believe Rudolph just automatically assumes the gun is screwed up without reasoning.
That is an interesting theory about Harry starting to call hellfire though..
Maybe if he was infected he might... Consider Justine's act, what is to say that that startled look was also an act?
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Jim signaled this about as loud as you can do it short of grabbing you by the ears and screaming it. The first time he had a character mention trigger discipline somebody was going to die from an accidental gunshot. It actually fits the character in this case. In his haste to ladder climb he bypassed the training. Ultimately the guy who sent in IA owns it. As it's written it works fairy well, you get angry because she takes out a giant and then dies at the hands of a coward, by accident. This is how Jim has used the character throughout the books.
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Jim signaled this about as loud as you can do it short of grabbing you by the ears and screaming it. The first time he had a character mention trigger discipline somebody was going to die from an accidental gunshot. It actually fits the character in this case. In his haste to ladder climb he bypassed the training. Ultimately the guy who sent in IA owns it. As it's written it works fairy well, you get angry because she takes out a giant and then dies at the hands of a coward, by accident. This is how Jim has used the character throughout the books.
And you should be angry. It is exactly what Jim wants you to be ;D
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Jim signaled this about as loud as you can do it short of grabbing you by the ears and screaming it. The first time he had a character mention trigger discipline somebody was going to die from an accidental gunshot. It actually fits the character in this case. In his haste to ladder climb he bypassed the training. Ultimately the guy who sent in IA owns it. As it's written it works fairy well, you get angry because she takes out a giant and then dies at the hands of a coward, by accident. This is how Jim has used the character throughout the books.
I am inclined to agree, however if there is more to it than it appears to be, I think I've come up with something plausible. However since Rudolph got the gun by accident because Bradley was occupied trying to save his child and those other kids, it says it was just one of those things.. Then again, how a gun, not aimed could find the carotid artery in Murphy's neck, raises questions... But then again there are a lot of dead people out there in the real world who died from "unloaded" guns, guns not really aimed at anyone, mistaken for a deer, an last but not least, guns handled by paranoid panic stricken fingers..
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Jim signaled this about as loud as you can do it short of grabbing you by the ears and screaming it. The first time he had a character mention trigger discipline somebody was going to die from an accidental gunshot. It actually fits the character in this case. In his haste to ladder climb he bypassed the training. Ultimately the guy who sent in IA owns it. As it's written it works fairy well, you get angry because she takes out a giant and then dies at the hands of a coward, by accident. This is how Jim has used the character throughout the books.
I thought it was fairly obvious as well. Maybe he used the term 'trigger discipline' before in the books, but not that I ever really noticed. And suddenly it is used a lot. So much that you noticed it. It almost seemed out of place it was used so much.
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Wow this was a roller coaster of a thread. Here is how I read the scene:
Once Murphy is shot and it sinks in. A switch is thrown in Harry. You can tell by the way he is talking. They're trying to get him to stop and he's dismissing him with the same tone that someone would use to say "Just let me wash my hands, then we can eat." That is the emotionless logic of a sociopath who treats murdering Rudolph has a banal task he needs to complete. The holy lightsaber, which Harry could pass his flesh through previously while feeling just a warm buzzing sensation now sears his flesh as if he is pure evil, which he is that that moment. The sword then has the same affect on harry as it does on the monsters. Once Harry snaps out of it, Butters could have pushed the lightsaber through him and it wouldn't have harmed in again. Harry is going to have another scar on his arm that reminds him not to become a monster. The sulfur smell was the signal that Harry was seriously in the wrong, I don't think it has anything to do with an outsider influencing Rudolph. It has everything to do with Harry being evil in that moment and the sword telling him a resounding "No."
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Wow this was a roller coaster of a thread. Here is how I read the scene:
Once Murphy is shot and it sinks in. A switch is thrown in Harry. You can tell by the way he is talking. They're trying to get him to stop and he's dismissing him with the same tone that someone would use to say "Just let me wash my hands, then we can eat." That is the emotionless logic of a sociopath who treats murdering Rudolph has a banal task he needs to complete. The holy lightsaber, which Harry could pass his flesh through previously while feeling just a warm buzzing sensation now sears his flesh as if he is pure evil, which he is that that moment. The sword then has the same affect on harry as it does on the monsters. Once Harry snaps out of it, Butters could have pushed the lightsaber through him and it wouldn't have harmed in again. Harry is going to have another scar on his arm that reminds him not to become a monster. The sulfur smell was the signal that Harry was seriously in the wrong, I don't think it has anything to do with an outsider influencing Rudolph. It has everything to do with Harry being evil in that moment and the sword telling him a resounding "No."
That is a very reasonable explanation of what happened but we do not do reasonable here. We reject the reasonable explanation and go straight to the conspiracy theories.
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LOL, Arjan!
It's been a while since I do a full rereading of the series, does Harry's hellfire smell like brimstone/sulfur before?
The_Sibelis, I agree that the "Wtf?" was a little confusing. So I still think TWG was involved. That could have caused Rudolph to shoot without actually realizing he was doing it. That or something possessed him for a moment.
And of course the first time trigger discipline was mentioned we knew somebody was going to be shot by accident, that does not mean that "the accident" were not caused for something supernatural.
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That is a very reasonable explanation of what happened but we do not do reasonable here. We reject the reasonable explanation and go straight to the conspiracy theories.
Well, I mean, you get the reasonable explanation when you read it. No need for a forum ;)
To me the Murphy shot just doesn't work thematically if Rudolph was not himself. The book was half 'humans aren't much' and half 'but they CAN be'. They can be great, but without Rudolph, they're not all that terrible; we have a few bits and pieces as Harry gathers up his banner, but mostly the humans are darn heroic (even the Denarian).
Rudolph, by one shot, balanced that scale. If it wasn't Rudolph but Nemesis or somesuch in the driver's seat, well... not balanced.
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I agree, and that is an interesting take but...I still think too many things were involved in the shooting, it reminded me to the scene that ended with Butters taking the Blade, when Harry was trying to do something but his aim was not too good.
I mean, if it were a pure accident, I don't think the necessity of JB to write some things in the scene. Rudolph could have his weapon the whole time and only took it in his hand in the last moments, when he saw Murph killing the Jotun. And before that, he could have been quite groggy but walking on his feet, not needing to be carried by Bradley (which led to the moment of Harry and Bradley discussing what to do with him).
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There is no doubt that killing or not killing Rudolph was one of those important choices that decides who Harry is going to be and as such is typically something the fallen would like to influence just like the knights did. Lash was influencing Harry to become more violent for a reason.
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Oh yes, but I don't think how a Denarian could have done it.
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Oh yes, but I don't think how a Denarian could have done it.
Unless Lasciel is meddling again.
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Lasciel is a Denarian, so it is included in what I just said. How?
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Lasciel is a Denarian, so it is included in what I just said. How?
No, I don't think Lash or Lasciel had anything to do with Harry's reaction. I think we've got that pretty well worked out. Rage and grief triggered it, not unlike Michael's reaction to Father Douglas, who kidnapped his daughter. But as you point out Dina, that gooses the Winter Knight's mantle that in turn dumps gasoline on the fire of Harry's rage.. It wasn't too hard for Harry to stop Michael, but it took two Holy Knights and finally the angel of the Sword of Faith to bring Harry back to his senses.
Rudolph is another matter.. He may be infected, that would account for what has been going on with him for a number of years. However did the dominoes just happen to fall into place? Or was it some cosmic set up;
1] Things are going to hell in a hand basket, a huge giant is making toe jam out of the citizens.
2] Murphy who could barely walk and had to be pushed in a shopping cart like a baby in a pram, just a couple of hours or so ago, arrives on scene riding her motorbike with a bazooka on her back.. Okay, Mab was putting the juju on the area, no one was feeling any pain from injuries.. But freedom from pain doesn't insure the return of muscle strength and sudden healing of unrepaired tendons.. Yeah, Mab can heal a broken back, but she wasn't healing everyone.. Just Murphy? Suddenly she is strong enough to sit a bike and bob and weave through the city streets at high speed? Seem odd to you? We'll get back to that.
3] Murphy picks up Harry and they just happen to converge on the street where there is a daycare center that still has a bunch of stranded little kids and an elderly caretaker or two. Meanwhile Hunters and that big bad assed giant who wiped the floor with Vadderung's beserker Einherjan is headed straight for it.
4] They knock on the door telling everyone to evacuate! Low and behold if it isn't Bradley holding down the fort.. Oh forgot Sanya and Butters also just happen to be there. Bradley hasn't forgotten his soul gaze with Harry, and both Murphy and Butters remind him of the closed meetings they used to have that he had declared were bullshit.. Bradley is now convinced they were true, he is now on team Harry.
5] Getting the kids to safety isn't going to be easy because we find out that Rudolph is inside with the kids. He has not only soiled himself he has lost it mentally. Bradley goes in, clocks him, then is seen leaving the building, Rudolph limp over his shoulder and his two year old in one arm an old lady with an infant in the other, oh and somewhere Bradley still has his gun.. In his holster maybe? Frankly I am not sure, his hands were full, but if it was in it's holster, I doubt he would have lost it in the chaos...
6] Things get nasty because the giant has arrived along with more Hunters. Some clever moves are made to delay the giant.. Bradley drops Rudolph and somehow his gun, distracted with trying to save his kid, just leaves it on the ground with in reach of Rudolph, who is awake, groggy, but awake.. He picks up the gun.
7] Murphy pulls out her trusty bazooka and takes aim at the giant... Meanwhile Rudolph is screaming things about Harry and Murphy and the law, waving that gun around... KABLOOIE! Murphy blows the giant away, but there is no joy in Mudville, because Rudolph selected that minute to really get careless with his trigger finger... The gun goes off and Murphy goes down like she was pole axed.. You know the rest, but lets go back to number two...
Interesting don't you think? Mab takes away everyone's pain, and it sorta looks like she selectively completely healed Murphy's injuries so she can ride in on her big Harley... She saves the day, but ends up on the pavement dead.. Coincidence? Or in the light of her long term plans with Lara, Mab sets it up so the one impediment, Murphy, is taken out? How is that sports fans for a conspiracy theory. ::)
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I have to reread for the details but I don't think anyone healed Murphy. In fact, I was wondering the whole time why Mab didn't heal Harry long before all that. Harry was the centerpiece of the plan, and they leave him going around, playing with Jotuns and things like that. Healing him would have at least increased his chances of survival. But Mab did not heal him. So my head cannon explanation for that was that healing someone takes more juice of Mab that she was ready to spend in a battle moment, when she would need all her power. So no, I don't think she would waste that power healing Murphy.
Now, perhaps Murphy took a deal with someone, but as she still looked hurt and in pain until Mab did her thing, and then Murphy was with Harry, I just think that she was not healing. Only working the best as she could, mainly in adrenaline (easier to do when there is no pain. Harry told us he could be seriously hurt if not paying attention, do to the mantle hiding his pain).
Another interesting thing is that there is a moment when Bradley leaves Murdoch that Harry had to actively convinced him to leave Rudolph. I believe that is important too but I don't know why.
And yes, it is very telling that Murphy and Harry randomly appeared in the street of the nursery of Bradley's child. I mean, that is a coincidence, right?
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Maybe if he was infected he might... Consider Justine's act, what is to say that that startled look was also an act?
meh, then we're just trading one who dun it theory for another lol.
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Something I was thinking about the mantle. Winter was as its weakest point in this book(s). Was the mantle weaker too?
Hugin and Munin seemed to think so.
However, I think that it would be unprecedented inasmuch as a firearm is entirely mechanical. I don't believe that we've seen a wizard or other being hex purely mechanical machines.
Early in the series we saw it several times. The Beckets' guns in SF and the goons guns at the end of GP. It's mentioned in SK as well. I think Jim just kinda let that effect fall away. But I also think it was Rudolph's terrible trigger discipline that did the trick.
Rereading PT, I've noticed than when Butters touches Fidelacchius blade he feels "a little warm", while when Harry does the same he feels "unconmfortably warm but bearable". I guess that is because Harry is more in the darker path than Butters. When he is in full rage mode, the sword actually burned him hard. It is just interesting, like a detector of evilness.
What did everyone else say? I was just thinking that if Butter felt a little warm and Michael and Sanya didn't, that might be part of the point of the whole three-way/Butters threatening Harry seen. Neither one of those things is something that a traditional Christian take on morality considers good, but it's definitely not fighting your friends, so you can murder someone not good.
Honestly I figure that Harry flipping to a completely destructive mindset and getting hellfire oozing out his staff instead of soulfire is more likely than Marcone ditching his force to track down Harry and subtly fuck him over via Rudolph.
Sure. I even agree. But the crazier theories are more fun. ;D
That is a very reasonable explanation of what happened but we do not do reasonable here. We reject the reasonable explanation and go straight to the conspiracy theories.
Arjan gets it.
the fact that Justine is mortal and got infested, possible Rudolph is also. This could be why he has been such an asshole over the years towards Murphy and Harry. Now he may have been an asshole to begin with.
But he wasn't. He had an abrupt character change from GP to SK. Maybe he's been infected the whole time? I think it's more likely his exposure to the supernatural just broke him.
Rudy was being an idiot but he knows his own hardware.
Then why did he repeatedly violate trigger discipline?
The first time he had a character mention trigger discipline somebody was going to die from an accidental gunshot. It actually fits the character in this case. In his haste to ladder climb he bypassed the training.
I mean maybe not die, but he was definitely going to have a negligent discharge that ended badly.
Rudolph had probably had just about all the firearms training required of a police officer before he got bumped to S.I. Cops are notoriously bad at handling firearms, firearms in general. I was filing a police report and overheard my local PD's training on the AR-15. The instructor was misnaming parts of the gun. Murphy was the exception.
Maybe he used the term 'trigger discipline' before in the books, but not that I ever really noticed.
I'm pretty sure I would have noticed it. I notice whenever Harry uses the proper terms for firearms. He usually doesn't.
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Mouse should have bit Cassius in the face. Harry even calls it out so the reader won't miss it. Die alone! Or Mab did it. Pick your poison.
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Then why did he repeatedly violate trigger discipline?
cause he was being an idiot?
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cause he was being an idiot?
Because you have to drill these things into people until they do it without thinking otherwise it breaks down under stress. Rudolph was overstressed and breaking down.
He was also an example how some people react to seeing magic repeatedly, he was still in denial and his contact with reality was flaky.
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Because you have to drill these things into people until they do it without thinking otherwise it breaks down under stress. Rudolph was overstretched and breaking down.
He was also an example how some people react to seeing magic repeatedly, he was still in denial and his contact with reality was flaky.
doesn't change the oddity of his reaction. He knows what a gun is and does,
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doesn't change the oddity of his reaction. He knows what a gun is and does,
He was in denial about magic. He was trying to save innocent people from Murphy who was shooting at them with a rocket launcher. He lost all contact with reality. He was completely unhinged and poorly trained.
Maybe someone was messing with his brain or he saw an illusion but I do not think that is necessary to explain his behavior.
But this is the dresdenverse and Lasciel’s seven words where also not necessary to explain Harry’s behavior in changes. They were necessary to explain Uriel’s reaction in Ghost story though.
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What did everyone else say? I was just thinking that if Butter felt a little warm and Michael and Sanya didn't, that might be part of the point of the whole three-way/Butters threatening Harry seen. Neither one of those things is something that a traditional Christian take on morality considers good, but it's definitely not fighting your friends, so you can murder someone not good.
None of them said anything about what they felt. Well, Michael said "interesting". The only person talking about warming was Butters, who says "a little warm". But we share Harry's thoughts, so we found that he felt it uncomfortably warm, like when you are doing dishes with the water too hot. Nothing else. That is what his inner monologue said. (It may be important that the mantle did not seem to do anything to numb the uncomfortable feeling).
But this is the dresdenverse and Lasciel’s seven words where also not necessary to explain Harry’s behavior in changes. They were necessary to explain Uriel’s reaction in Ghost story though.
Exactly so.
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He was in denial about magic. He was trying to save innocent people from Murphy who was shooting at them with a rocket launcher. He lost all contact with reality. He was completely unhinged and poorly trained.
Maybe someone was messing with his brain or he saw an illusion but I do not think that is necessary to explain his behavior.
But this is the dresdenverse and Lasciel’s seven words where also not necessary to explain Harry’s behavior in changes. They were necessary to explain Uriel’s reaction in Ghost story though.
and he clearly didn't mean to shoot Murphy and was very clearly confused about why his gun misfired. His behavior after she was hit very much needs explaining.
I don't think he was poorly trained, nothing but speculation supports that, he was trained. He was also being influenced by someone throughout the series very much so, besides being directly under the influence of the two opposing psychic attacks.
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and he clearly didn't mean to shoot Murphy and was very clearly confused about why his gun misfired. His behavior after she was hit very much needs explaining.
I don't think he was poorly trained, nothing but speculation supports that, he was trained. He was also being influenced by someone throughout the series very much so, besides being directly under the influence of the two opposing psychic attacks.
If he was well trained he could have made maybe a mistake once under pressure but not several times and probably more reading bradly’s comments. Good training means some things are done right without thinking automatically, muscle memory makes you do them. And he would recognize when he made an error. He was clearly badly trained in the use of firearms.
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If he was well trained he could have made maybe a mistake once under pressure but not several times and probably more reading bradly’s comments. Good training means some things are done right without thinking automatically, muscle memory makes you do them. And he would recognize when he made an error. He was clearly badly trained in the use of firearms.
he's been psychically damaged... actively under psychic assault too.. But I digress, none of that. None at all, has actual bearing on him not feeling a twitch of his finger and likely not feeling the trigger pull at all. Which is my point.
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he's been psychically damaged... actively under psychic assault too.. But I digress, none of that. None at all, has actual bearing on him not feeling a twitch of his finger and likely not feeling the trigger pull at all. Which is my point.
The man has totally lost it mentally, training, no matter how good is going to compensate for that. His finger and hand may have muscle memory, but they need the brain to power them.
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The man has totally lost it mentally, training, no matter how good is going to compensate for that. His finger and hand may have muscle memory, but they need the brain to power them.
At the end sure but the bad trigger discipline was mentioned so many times in two books.
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At the end sure but the bad trigger discipline was mentioned so many times in two books.
That could very well be, however his mind was broken before hand, not to the extent it was when he actually shot Murphy, but it was headed that way. He had convinced himself at some point that Murphy and Harry were behind everything. He saw Murphy, he saw Harry, his mind screamed, "danger Will Robinson," he felt he had to stop them. There was nothing rational in the thought process, so bad trigger discipline united with paranoia, equals death for someone.
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That could very well be, however his mind was broken before hand, not to the extent it was when he actually shot Murphy, but it was headed that way. He had convinced himself at some point that Murphy and Harry were behind everything. He saw Murphy, he saw Harry, his mind screamed, "danger Will Robinson," he felt he had to stop them. There was nothing rational in the thought process, so bad trigger discipline united with paranoia, equals death for someone.
And remember what happened when Bradly accused him of bad trigger discipline. Rudolph asked him whose side he was on.
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The man has totally lost it mentally, training, no matter how good is going to compensate for that. His finger and hand may have muscle memory, but they need the brain to power them.
as someone whose studied martial arts for years,(including under a guy with a degree in pyschoneuralimmunology(? If Im recalling my big words correctly)) let me assure you. There is no such thing as muscle memory. No memory is stored in the muscle.
And let me elaborate on my point, I have fired a gun only a handful of times, the first thing my untrained brain is going to do if a gun misfires when I didn't pull the trigger, or feel the trigger bump, my reaction is going to be just about the same as Rudy's. His reaction is not right and cannot be explained away with lack of discipline or even a generic breakdown of mental capacity, which would have precluded the reaction.
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as someone whose studied martial arts for years,(including under a guy with a degree in pyschoneuralimmunology(? If Im recalling my big words correctly)) let me assure you. There is no such thing as muscle memory. No memory is stored in the muscle.
And let me elaborate on my point, I have fired a gun only a handful of times, the first thing my untrained brain is going to do if a gun misfires when I didn't pull the trigger, or feel the trigger bump, my reaction is going to be just about the same as Rudy's. His reaction is not right and cannot be explained away with lack of discipline or even a generic breakdown of mental capacity, which would have precluded the reaction.
You don’t get it from a few lessons bu I have experienced it when I played the violin. It needs training.
A simple search on the internet will give loads of results, I just give you the first one:
https://www.sierraelement.com/blog/the-importance-of-muscle-memory-in-firearms-training.html
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Let me reiterate, it does not exist
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology#:~:text=Psychoneuroimmunology%20(PNI)%2C%20also%20referred,systems%20of%20the%20human%20body.
It's a misnomer, misapplied information to the wrong conclusion, ect.
And all those things are very important in martial arts... And my teacher used to laugh at people who used the term muscle memory, especially other artists.
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Let me reiterate, it does not exist
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology#:~:text=Psychoneuroimmunology%20(PNI)%2C%20also%20referred,systems%20of%20the%20human%20body.
It's a misnomer, misapplied information to the wrong conclusion, ect.
And all those things are very important in martial arts... And my teacher used to laugh at people who used the term muscle memory, especially other artists.
This must be a wrong link because the word memory and the word muscle do not appear in the text.
And however you want to call it the effect exists. I had my body ran away with a piece of music without thinking about it. And yes your brain is still involved in some way but that is not the point in this context.
The point is that you can drill some habits into people so they do it without thinking about it.
And it has nothing to do with the immune system.
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This must be a wrong link because the word memory and the word muscle do not appear in the text.
And however you want to call it the effect exists. I had my body ran away with a piece of music without thinking about it. And yes your brain is likely still involved in some way but that is not the point in this context.
And it has nothing to do with the immune system.
reread the first passage,"the study of the interaction between psychological processes and the nervous and immune systems of the human body." on everything it dabbles in and everything it includes."incorporating psychology, neuroscience, immunology, physiology, genetics, pharmacology, molecular biology, psychiatry, behavioral medicine, infectious diseases, endocrinology, and rheumatology." The word muscle memory wouldn't appear, because it does not exist.. go on Facebook, look up Yost Wing Chun, and ask mister Jason Yost what muscle memory really is.
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reread the first passage,"the study of the interaction between psychological processes and the nervous and immune systems of the human body." on everything it dabbles in and everything it includes."incorporating psychology, neuroscience, immunology, physiology, genetics, pharmacology, molecular biology, psychiatry, behavioral medicine, infectious diseases, endocrinology, and rheumatology." The word muscle memory wouldn't appear, because it does not exist.. go on Facebook, look up Yost Wing Chun, and ask mister Jason Yost what muscle memory really is.
It does not litterally exist because the memory is still in the brain but that is not important in this context. What is important is that it is a real effect that is called muscle memory and can be used to train people. That is used to train people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory
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Maybe just agree that one of you like to use the term while the other one states that if you are being literal about it there is no such thing?
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Maybe just agree that one of you like to use the term while the other one states that if you are being literal about it there is no such thing?
A cuttlefish is not a fish. The creature still exists and is generally called cuttlefish. I have not seen a better term for the concept that is in general use.
And you can eat it. We were not discussing the proper term for the concept otherwise I would have expected an alternative term offered. There was a denial of the existence of the cuttlefish even if loads of people had it on their plate.
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I don't think anyone (or most anyone) speaking of muscle memory actually think the muscle has the capacity of having memory. It's just a way of naming an effect, an idiom if you want. But, as others said, the effect exist and it has been quite studied. I remember an episode of House about a man with amnesia. House irritated him (as always) and in the middle of the heat he convinces him to sign a piece of paper. The man did it, because in his angry state he did not remember that he did not remember his name. He did his signature as he has done thousands of times in his life. And House stated that the memory for mechanical actions like that was different than conscious memory. Well, that is what we called muscle memory.
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And actually it is neither here nor there, in the sense that Rudy was pointing the gun in Murphy's general direction. He wasn't standing around with his finger on the trigger.
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cause he was being an idiot?
Or because he doesn't know his own hardware.
Because you have to drill these things into people until they do it without thinking otherwise it breaks down under stress. Rudolph was overstretched and breaking down.
Which I would characterize as part and parcel of not knowing his hardware.
I don't think he was poorly trained, nothing but speculation supports that, he was trained.
Both real world police training and Rudy's repeated lack of trigger discipline both suggest that he was poorly trained on firearms.
If you're halfway decently trained on firearms, you're not going to have your finger on the trigger until you've decided you're willing for the gun to go bang.
Jim is probably very familiar with this. He brought it up in Fool Moon when Harry said he'd err on the side of blowing Denton's head off.
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Wow this was a roller coaster of a thread. Here is how I read the scene:
Once Murphy is shot and it sinks in. A switch is thrown in Harry. You can tell by the way he is talking. They're trying to get him to stop and he's dismissing him with the same tone that someone would use to say "Just let me wash my hands, then we can eat." That is the emotionless logic of a sociopath who treats murdering Rudolph has a banal task he needs to complete. The holy lightsaber, which Harry could pass his flesh through previously while feeling just a warm buzzing sensation now sears his flesh as if he is pure evil, which he is that that moment. The sword then has the same affect on harry as it does on the monsters. Once Harry snaps out of it, Butters could have pushed the lightsaber through him and it wouldn't have harmed in again. Harry is going to have another scar on his arm that reminds him not to become a monster. The sulfur smell was the signal that Harry was seriously in the wrong, I don't think it has anything to do with an outsider influencing Rudolph. It has everything to do with Harry being evil in that moment and the sword telling him a resounding "No."
Exactly.
The swords exist to allow free will choice. Especially, they exist to neutralize the Denarians to allow their hosts free will.
In this case, Harry's free will is compromised by his Mantle. The sword gives him a shock to allow free willed choice. It's what the KotC are for.
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About the matter of brimstone, there is a chance that it is not as significant. I've just finished rereading PT and when Eb is fighting (fake) Harry, Eb hit Harry's shoulders with terrible force. The magic suit took the damage. It says: "There was a flash of light from the spider-silk suit, the scent of something putrid, burning. and instead it (the hit) merely felt like getting smacked...". I don't see any reason for that putrid smell so perhaps is like some spells are smelly when dispelled. But even so, it is weird to write a scene with two KoC and mentioning sulfur.
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It does not litterally exist because the memory is still in the brain but that is not important in this context. What is important is that it is a real effect that is called muscle memory and can be used to train people. That is used to train people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory
if it's not in the muscles, then it's inaccurate. Like the four humors don't literally exist but the idea was successfully used to treat ailments for years. It's also entirely wrong, based on limited understanding and promotes a high degree of misunderstanding in its idea and verbage.
Both real world police training and Rudy's repeated lack of trigger discipline both suggest that he was poorly trained on firearms.
If you're halfway decently trained on firearms, you're not going to have your finger on the trigger until you've decided you're willing for the gun to go bang.
but despite my own limited training with guns I know this, and I mean I know it like a principle I've always adhered to any time I've held a gun. This is why I don't think it was merely lack of training. General breaking down of the psyche and ones beliefs and principles might have such an effect though, as the mind tries to realign itself under a new banner. Someone convinced him Harry and Murphy were monsters.. perhaps his mind was thrown into chaos and was trying to wrap itself around the new status quo?
I still remember a time when Rudy threatened Dresden if anything happened to Murphy... Him going on to point a gun in her face ready to blow her away is definitely a mental dissonance. Something happened to change his mind, if not an actual psychic attack then the slow eroding of his mind from more mundane 'mind expansion'.
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if it's not in the muscles, then it's inaccurate. Like the four humors don't literally exist but the idea was successfully used to treat ailments for years. It's also entirely wrong, based on limited understanding and promotes a high degree of misunderstanding in its idea and verbage.
Human language does not always work that way. The meaning and understanding of words can change and we can use the word even if we know that the cuttlefish is not really a fish. It is still there. And we still use the word even when we know it is not a fish. We can use the proper Latin name for it if you want but nobody does and nobody recognizes it except for a few scientists that study the animal.
The generally accepted term for the thing is muscle memory, maybe not memory of the muscles but memory for the muscles or about what the muscles should do but that is still the term and until somebody comes with a better term it stays.
And there is a clear difference with the four humors. The four humors do not describe something that happens and needs an explanation, they are an explanation for something that does not happen. They are a unicorn, not a cuttlefish.
So get a new word for cuttlefish if you want but until you do I have to assume you think the animal does not exist which is plainly absurd.
but despite my own limited training with guns I know this, and I mean I know it like a principle I've always adhered to any time I've held a gun. This is why I don't think it was merely lack of training. General breaking down of the psyche and ones beliefs and principles might have such an effect though, as the mind tries to realign itself under a new banner. Someone convinced him Harry and Murphy were monsters.. perhaps his mind was thrown into chaos and was trying to wrap itself around the new status quo?
I still remember a time when Rudy threatened Dresden if anything happened to Murphy... Him going on to point a gun in her face ready to blow her away is definitely a mental dissonance. Something happened to change his mind, if not an actual psychic attack then the slow eroding of his mind from more mundane 'mind expansion'.
You know it but when you move you have to think about it. That is not enough for a properly trained person.
It is like me playing the piano. I know what key is what note and I can read notes from a score but that does not mean I can play the piano. I do not know how to do it properly. I have to think where to put my finger, I can not just hear the note in my head and get the right key immediately and so on.
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And Rudolph hit b flat and it came out A minor instead.
Operant conditioning, there, a better word already exist. Something to describe motor learning, also a more accurate term.
https://www.popsci.com/what-is-muscle-memory/
And nobody who believed in the four humors would agree, however you sound just like me there arguing muscle memory isn't a real thing. Muscle memory is an explanation of something that does not happen.
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And Rudolph hit b flat and it came out A minor instead.
Operant conditioning, there, a better word already exist. Something to describe motor learning, also a more accurate term.
https://www.popsci.com/what-is-muscle-memory/
And nobody who believed in the four humors would agree,
And nobody who believed in unicorns either. But that is not the point.
however you sound just like me there arguing muscle memory isn't a real thing. Muscle memory is an explanation of something that does not happen.
It is not an explanation, it is a term, a word. Language is that way. It does not always work as clean as you would like.
I had similar discussions with colleagues. Human language does not work like a programming language. This is the universally used term.
https://www.greatbritishchefs.com/how-to-cook/how-to-cook-cuttlefish
Note that the tentacles of the cuttlefish are called wings. No fish has tentacles and you can’t use tentacles for flying. They still exist.
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And nobody who believed in unicorns either. But that is not the point.
when something like 90% of the fossil record is incomplete and things happen like the dodo bird where people didn't believe it existed until it was actually proven, could you in fact prove unicorns don't and never have exist? I fail to see your point.
Muscle memory IS used as an explanation. It's directly used as an explanation in fact... Language is a vessel for an idea to convey an explanation of an idea into solid terms others can understand.. and I think your misunderstanding why they're called wings... "Once launched by this jet propulsion, these squid spread out both their fins and their tentacles to form wings." Because its a verb too, and it's used to define things that complete such verbage. I don't know why your linking how to cook cuttlefish.. wrong link?
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To show you there is a creature generally called a fish but is not. Muscle memory is just like that. Nobody who uses the term and is seriously interested in it thinks it is literally in the muscles. It is just called that way.
It is a far too strict way of defining language. You will find a lot of wrong words
And the wings are called wings because they make you think of bird wings originally. It is association. Just like muscle memory.
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but despite my own limited training with guns I know this, and I mean I know it like a principle I've always adhered to any time I've held a gun. This is why I don't think it was merely lack of training. General breaking down of the psyche and ones beliefs and principles might have such an effect though, as the mind tries to realign itself under a new banner. Someone convinced him Harry and Murphy were monsters.. perhaps his mind was thrown into chaos and was trying to wrap itself around the new status quo?
I still remember a time when Rudy threatened Dresden if anything happened to Murphy... Him going on to point a gun in her face ready to blow her away is definitely a mental dissonance. Something happened to change his mind, if not an actual psychic attack then the slow eroding of his mind from more mundane 'mind expansion'.
Which screams that Rudolph is infested like Justine is.
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To show you there is a creature generally called a fish but is not.
so basically your defense here is because other people use the wrong words we should continue to use the wrong words? " observation. Animals with inaccurate names are everywhere in the animal kingdom, the starfish and the jellyfish are also not fish. A killer whale is actually not a whale at all but related to the dolphin, and a koala bear is not at all a bear. The horny toad"
Remember how words are just vessels for ideas? Well these words conveyed the original idea and are inherently wrong. They are a name proper sure, but so this to an idea and your going to do nothing productive unless it's your intention to spread misinformation. If I said I had read a great paper on spaghetti physics it would accurately explain what I was looking at and falsely identity what I'm talking about. Muscle memory is just like that. Nobody who uses the term and is seriously interested in it thinks it is literally in the muscles. It is just called that way.
nobody seriously interested in spaghetti mechanics call them that but casually claiming there exists anything of the sort is false.
It is a far too strict way of defining language. You will find a lot of wrong words
I'm having trouble with my math just now... What do two wrongs equal again..?🤔
And the wings are called wings because they make you think of bird wings originally. It is association. Just like muscle memory.
negative, they are called wings because they correctly identity how they are used in a concept. Muscle memory does not correctly identity anything. Muscle tendon changing is not the same as creating the synapse for the action though the two are often trained in a similar fashion.
But I digress, I'm just winging it here.. 😉
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so basically your defense here is because other people use the wrong words we should continue to use the wrong words? " observation. Animals with inaccurate names are everywhere in the animal kingdom, the starfish and the jellyfish are also not fish. A killer whale is actually not a whale at all but related to the dolphin, and a koala bear is not at all a bear. The horny toad"
Remember how words are just vessels for ideas? Well these words conveyed the original idea and are inherently wrong. They are a name proper sure, but so this to an idea and your going to do nothing productive unless it's your intention to spread misinformation. If I said I had read a great paper on spaghetti physics it would accurately explain what I was looking at and falsely identity what I'm talking about. nobody seriously interested in spaghetti mechanics call them that but casually claiming there exists anything of the sort is false.
I'm having trouble with my math just now... What do two wrongs equal again..?🤔 negative, they are called wings because they correctly identity how they are used in a concept. Muscle memory does not correctly identity anything. Muscle tendon changing is not the same as creating the synapse for the action though the two are often trained in a similar fashion.
But I digress, I'm just winging it here.. 😉
Because language and words are a convention. If a word is generally used for a concept then it is the right word unless you want to change the language. It can be done, usually by powerful pressure groups who want to change society, but you need a lot of pull for that and unless you succeed nobody will understand you.
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so basically your defense here is because other people use the wrong words we should continue to use the wrong words? " observation. Animals with inaccurate names are everywhere in the animal kingdom, the starfish and the jellyfish are also not fish. A killer whale is actually not a whale at all but related to the dolphin, and a koala bear is not at all a bear. The horny toad"
Remember how words are just vessels for ideas? Well these words conveyed the original idea and are inherently wrong. They are a name proper sure, but so this to an idea and your going to do nothing productive unless it's your intention to spread misinformation. If I said I had read a great paper on spaghetti physics it would accurately explain what I was looking at and falsely identity what I'm talking about. nobody seriously interested in spaghetti mechanics call them that but casually claiming there exists anything of the sort is false.
I'm having trouble with my math just now... What do two wrongs equal again..?🤔 negative, they are called wings because they correctly identity how they are used in a concept. Muscle memory does not correctly identity anything. Muscle tendon changing is not the same as creating the synapse for the action though the two are often trained in a similar fashion.
But I digress, I'm just winging it here.. 😉
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muscle memory
Stop trying to change the definition of term "muscle memory" to "memory in muscles," please.
It's incorrect, and poor parsing of language. Inverting muscle memory can mean your interpretation, memory belonging to muscles, or memory of muscles- remembering the muscle sequence without need to think through the actions. The latter pretty clearly is the etymology.
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Muscle memory or not really doesn't matter.. Rudolph knows he has poor trigger discipline, doesn't matter what his finger remembered, it is what he was thinking when he was yelling, scared, and pointing the gun at Murphy..
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muscle memory
Stop trying to change the definition of term "muscle memory" to "memory in muscles," please.
It's incorrect, and poor parsing of language. Inverting muscle memory can mean your interpretation, memory belonging to muscles, or memory of muscles- remembering the muscle sequence without need to think through the actions. The latter pretty clearly is the etymology.
I'm not changing anything, and linking to a definition of muscles REALLY isn't changing anything
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory#:~:text=Muscle%20memory%20is%20a%20form,used%20synonymously%20with%20motor%20learning.
Same thing I quoted earlier. Muscle memory is a colloquial term, it's false on its face value. It's called motor learning. Muscle memory was invented the same way someone say what's up dog? It isn't proper English, period. It's non sensical and promotes a misunderstanding in anyone who hears it. Thank you very much for coming to my TED talk. But nobody, and I repeat NOBODY is going to convince me the way muscle memory is used is correct. It isn't. Especially in the context used here for why Rudolph isn't acting smoothly or with proper trigger safety, that's specifically not muscle memory, not even by some vague definition.
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Because language and words are a convention. If a word is generally used for a concept then it is the right word unless you want to change the language. It can be done, usually by powerful pressure groups who want to change society, but you need a lot of pull for that and unless you succeed nobody will understand you.
that's cool dog, I'ma split before things get too hot in here and I wig out. But it's pretty bad I can argue this all day. Spaghetti mechanics say there's always a version of me continuing this argument. That me, I'm that noodle.
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Muscle memory or not really doesn't matter.. Rudolph knows he has poor trigger discipline, doesn't matter what his finger remembered, it is what he was thinking when he was yelling, scared, and pointing the gun at Murphy..
I think you are right, Mira.
The_Sibelis, as Arjan said, words and language are conventions. And we understand what we mean by "muscle memory", so the convention works and communication happens. That is the important thing. Nobody believes the muscle have actual memory, it's an expression, and it works. No one is trying to convince you that "the way muscle memory is used is correct", only that it works and it is the best way, in the sense that most people will understand it. We are not even saying it's the only way to say it. And in this thread, we all understand the idea. Can we focus on Rudolph now? I think you are saying the same than Mira (and I) about it.
Also, those who knew me know that I don't usually do this (because stones and glass houses) but this time I think I am justified. If you are so concerned with "proper English" perhaps you shouldn't say "I think your misunderstanding why they're called wings" and "your going to". :P
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Then define for me muscle memory in your own words Dina, not something you go look upm explain it to me. Because even by the standards of the word nothing rudy was doing was muscle memory besides pointing the gun steady, which he did apparently do with his aim. His actions, his panic, his lack of trigger discipline, none of that is under this term muscle memory. He didn't train for that situation. Operant conditioning would apply, because that'd be taking action under a prescribed circumstances, which would draw on 'muscle memory' as it were. So he lacks field discipline from experience which is strictly a mental preparation, not a motor function.
And no I don't really care to correct your from you're. I didn't have multiple classes in this decade explaining to me the difference between them like I have muscle memory.
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Sorry I was not clear. I agree with you, what Rudolph did was not a case of muscular memory. But there are other people in this thread who may disagree. For me, it was his excessively paranoia but still, his surprise it is a little weird. I thought TWG had made him shoot but I realized I was wrong because it would interfere with his free will. Still, conditions were created and probably He (They) guide the bullet, leading to an injury that gave her enough time for a goodbye without making his suffering too long.
Perhaps the surprise was because Rudolph knew he was pointing to another place and the bullet trajectory felt weird, as if in "Wanted".
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Sorry I was not clear. I agree with you, what Rudolph did was not a case of muscular memory. But there are other people in this thread who may disagree. For me, it was his excessively paranoia but still, his surprise it is a little weird. I thought TWG had made him shoot but I realized I was wrong because it would interfere with his free will. Still, conditions were created and probably He (They) guide the bullet, leading to an injury that gave her enough time for a goodbye without making his suffering too long.
Perhaps the surprise was because Rudolph knew he was pointing to another place and the bullet trajectory felt weird, as if in "Wanted".
He could have been aiming non fatal and was Cassius death-curse nudged
And there's two separate points being conflated:
What Rudolph did
What does muscle memory mean?
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If you are properly trained gun safety is second nature to you and you have to consciously think about shooting someone before you even move the gun in someone’s direction, remove the safety and put your finger on the trigger. Other actions are automatic like not aiming at someone and puting the safety on.
Of course if you are trained as a soldier in a battle situation your learned procedural memory is different but he is a police officer between civilians.
You can debate about every case in two books that Rudolph’s handling of his gun is discussed but the overal picture is clear. Gun safety is not second nature to him. He does the wrong thing automatically without thinking.
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It's non sensical and promotes a misunderstanding in anyone who hears it.
You're the only person I've ever encountered who has ever suggested that the term means or suggests that the muscles themselves remember. I'm also pretty sure BrainFireBob meant to link https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muscle%20memory.
You can debate about every case in two books that Rudolph’s handling of his gun is discussed but the overal picture is clear. Gun safety is not second nature to him. He does the wrong thing automatically without thinking.
This is my stance. I'm tempted to offer an argument about how second nature is a misnomer nonsense term.
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Muscle memory are mechanical internalized movements, like turning the light on your bathroom when you enter it. Or like a gamer who automatically do the right key combo for a given action.
I am sure Rudolph has not shot things by accident many times, or he wouldn't be a) a policeman b) so smug in general. But I agree he probably is not that good with the gun, he is not an expert.
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Muscle memory are mechanical internalized movements, like turning the light on your bathroom when you enter it. Or like a gamer who automatically do the right key combo for a given action.
Or keeping your finger indexed when you're handling your firearm until you're ready to fire?
I've lost electricity a lot recently. I can't tell you how many times I either started to or did actually flip the switch in the restroom with a light in my hand.
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You're the only person I've ever encountered who has ever suggested that the term means or suggests that the muscles themselves remember. I'm also pretty sure BrainFireBob meant to link https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muscle%20memory.
This is my stance. I'm tempted to offer an argument about how second nature is a misnomer nonsense term.
Please do, I am going back to sleep soon ;D
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Or keeping your finger indexed when you're handling your firearm until you're ready to fire?
I've lost electricity a lot recently. I can't tell you how many times I either started to or did actually flip the switch in the restroom with a light in my hand.
About the finger, I have not idea, but I don't think a policeman shoots so often that he develops a muscular memory, unless he trains everyday in one of those training courses (which I don't think is probable).
Yes. I was without electricity for a couple of hours Saturday night. I put some candles in the bathroom, so it should be a clear message of "there is no electricity". Well, I flipped the switched several times. Hubby did the same.
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About the finger, I have not idea, but I don't think a policeman shoots so often that he develops a muscular memory, unless he trains everyday in one of those training courses (which I don't think is probable).
Police are usually only required to shoot once a year.
Yes. I was without electricity for a couple of hours Saturday night. I put some candles in the bathroom, so it should be a clear message of "there is no electricity". Well, I flipped the switched several times. Hubby did the same.
I felt stupid every time.
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Police are usually only required to shoot once a year.
I felt stupid every time.
Yes, so did we.
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I've seen a few videos of NBA players doing a tech free throw (with no one around them) and after the shot they start to go do the customary hand slap, fist bump thing. Only no one is there. I guess another word of this is habit. A really, really ingrained habit.
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I've seen a few videos of NBA players doing a tech free throw (with no one around them) and after the shot they start to go do the customary hand slap, fist bump thing. Only no one is there. I guess another word of this is habit. A really, really ingrained habit.
I think that is the perfect word.. A really, really, bad ingrained habit that was going to get someone killed someday. It finally did, it killed Murphy.
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Muscle memory are mechanical internalized movements, like turning the light on your bathroom when you enter it. Or like a gamer who automatically do the right key combo for a given action.
I am sure Rudolph has not shot things by accident many times, or he wouldn't be a) a policeman b) so smug in general. But I agree he probably is not that good with the gun, he is not an expert.
no, and part of that I think is him getting picked up by whatever agency or hidden backers he's been working for. It moved him up the chain of command without him spending as much time on the beat. Dry training starts to lose its value if it's never but into action to reinforce it in your mind. Murphy never would have that issue, because she shot things early and often in her career. If you don't understand the value of your training it tends not to stick as well when your put under pressure.
You're the only person I've ever encountered who has ever suggested that the term means or suggests that the muscles themselves remember. I'm also pretty sure BrainFireBob meant to link https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muscle%20memory.
Mmm I wouldn't know because people keep using the information at their fingertips but not using their own understanding to explain 🤷♂️ information, knowledge and understanding, three totally different things yes?I just think the term promotes a false understanding is all.
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Most people are hostile to just explanations.
You considered that the term could be misconstrued to imply something incorrect. However, for someone to make that assumption they'd have to be either ESL or extremely uneducated. Disputing as you did implied you thought that about other forum members. This engenders irritation and negative pushback, which you encountered.
The term is defined independently of its components. A basketball court does not imply a throne room filled with hollow ball-shaped baskets. The terms have other meanings.
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Oh what a clever way to insult me and yet offer know explanation for what it means to you at the same time. I've encountered people misconstruing that particular turn of phrase for years now. And I did point out what rudy did had nothing to do with muscle memory now didn't I?
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Oh what a clever way to insult me and yet offer know explanation for what it means to you at the same time.
You just insulted everyone who is using the common understanding of the term.
Mmm I wouldn't know because people keep using the information at their fingertips but not using their own understanding to explain 🤷♂️ information, knowledge and understanding, three totally different things yes?
It's extremely common to grab the dictionary definition of a word one is familiar with rather than coming up with "their own understanding" on the spot because the dictionary definition is derived from the common understanding. It shouldn't be surprising that most people would then be inclined to site the dictionary. It matches most people's understanding.
Nobody thinks that muscle memory means memory stored in muscles. You insist the words mean this. That implies that everyone is using the term incorrectly. They're not. Muscle memory is just a descriptor for the particular effect training/learning/practicing a physical action enough that it becomes something someone does without thinking about it as part of an overall action.
If you have a problem with a phrase because you think it misleads the hoi polloi or it's just one of those things that drive's subject matter experts up the wall because it's an oversimplification or 3 degrees off true, that's fine. Just don't run everyone down for using it.
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It doesn't, it's the specific definition. And that's my point. It does NOT make people's general understanding of every word. I never said it means muscles store memory, that's something you inferred wrongly. I'm not putting anyone down. I'm standing on a hill and people keep approaching thinking I'll leave, because they're also misunderstanding what i said too. In one of the very first posts on the subject I pointed out rudy wasn't using muscle memory. But it's that muscle memory is often misinterpreted that people chose to see here...
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Call it whatever suits you. Muscle without nerves is just tissue. And all of happens out of conscious control. In a relaxed hand the finger tends to curl, and when gripping something with your hands it is very difficult not to curl the fingers. And when holding a gun it is very easy to curl a finger over the trigger without thinking. Teaching a user to not do that is called training. Being mindful of the issue. This is called trigger discipline. The only real question is why that fool hadn't shot somebody prior to that point. No dark god would use him for anything. He could spoil a wet dream.
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Please, everyone, calm down are go re-read the Forum Policies. https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/board,50.0.html
You have all agreed to these policies by becoming a member of this forum.
Stop now, and just go have a cuppa and especially read of the Rules and Precepts and the Book of Don't.
Remember, we are all sitting in Griffyn612's living room here.
Be good to each other.
Blaze
as Mod.
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My apologies if I came off hostile or demeaning to anyone... It's not been a good few days for me.. (check the chronic pain section for why)