Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!

[Mira]

You are right. (Also, did you check your inbox lately?)

Mira, even when the mantle is not a person, I see it different than a weapon, unless you are talking of the One Ring. Because it is a thing that corrupts and tries to weaken the will of the one using it, until it conforms to some "ideal". I am sure that, for the mantle, an ideal WK would be vicious, killing people, raping people, chasing and punishing. The very stereotypical mucho macho probably. But that wouldn't be so useful to Winter as it is someone like Harry controlling the mantle. That is why Mab chose him (at least one of the reasons). Because she knew he won't become controlled by the mantle but the other way around. And she wants that, not for altruistic reasons but because it is in Winter's best interests. And perhaps in humanity's too.

Not like the one Ring, but in the wrong host the mantle runs amuck because it stimulates all the violent thoughts, and worse yet lends physical strength to the host.  If the host is weak willed as Slate evidently was, the mantle gained control, and he became a monster.  I agree Mab wanted Harry because with his will, he can control the mantle.  Though she may order him to kill, a mindless  killer is no use to her, or worse, is no more than a mediocre Knight.

[Dina]

Well, details may vary but I think you get what I meant. It is not a nuclear weapon, it' s more than a powerful weapon. Is a powerful weapon who actively interferes with the mind of the person using it.

Something I was thinking about the mantle. Winter was as its weakest point in this book(s). Was the mantle weaker too? So it can be even stronger, both in raw power and in its corrupting ability?

[Mira]

Well, details may vary but I think you get what I meant. It is not a nuclear weapon, it' s more than a powerful weapon. Is a powerful weapon who actively interferes with the mind of the person using it.

Something I was thinking about the mantle. Winter was as its weakest point in this book(s). Was the mantle weaker too? So it can be even stronger, both in raw power and in its corrupting ability?

That is an interesting idea, but I don't think the Knight's mantle works exactly like that of the Queens.   What is interesting is the difference between the Winter and the Summer Knight's mantles.
Maybe because he was a changeling to begin with if I remember correctly, but Fix doesn't seem to be struggling like Harry, though when he needs to Fix can be just as deadly. 

[Dina]

To be honest, I had been thinking if it's not the opposite way. If you are a decent person, it will be easy to resist the urge of harm someone that the urge of painting a tableau or fixing a car. But if you are painting not because you sincerely want it but because the mantle gives you the sudden desire to do it, aren't you losing some of your free will anyway? And almost without realizing it?

[The_Sibelis]

Fu#$, Fu#$, Fu#$!? Ok so I had a horrible no good probably right idea.. someone on the WC is a denarian.. and they caused the misfire to get Harry to outright murder someone with magic. That's the big set up for kicking him out of the council, they had to use some jank turtle neck excuse because Harry was stopped from killing Rudolph... But considering they were keeping tabs on Harry's actions I just smell a plot against the repub-... Er, against Harry. It wasn't about hurting Harry, it was about what it would make him do.. we already know the fallen out master manipulators, from them causing Harry's suicide... I see this as the exact same sort of scheme. Which makes the arrival of the KotC have all that much more meaning.. someone set Harry up to lose control..

[Arjan]

Fu#$, Fu#$, Fu#$!? Ok so I had a horrible no good probably right idea.. someone on the WC is a denarian.. and they caused the misfire to get Harry to outright murder someone with magic. That's the big set up for kicking him out of the council, they had to use some jank turtle neck excuse because Harry was stopped from killing Rudolph... But considering they were keeping tabs on Harry's actions I just smell a plot against the repub-... Er, against Harry. It wasn't about hurting Harry, it was about what it would make him do.. we already know the fallen out master manipulators, from them causing Harry's suicide... I see this as the exact same sort of scheme. Which makes the arrival of the KotC have all that much more meaning.. someone set Harry up to lose control..

Probably Namshiel. He wants to succeed where Anduriel failed. To corrupt Harry and then destroy him.

[TrueMonk]

My guess would be that the mantle of the winter knight is also at its weakest at mid summer. Why would it be different that the queen's in this way?

The the knight interference also points to the denarians in some way.

Killing a mortal is of course quite a bit further than what Morgan did (pushing him in his apartment), but things are also more desperate now. Could it be the Merlin?

[Arjan]

My guess would be that the mantle of the winter knight is also at its weakest at mid summer. Why would it be different that the queen's in this way?

The the knight interference also points to the denarians in some way.

Killing a mortal is of course quite a bit further than what Morgan did (pushing him in his apartment), but things are also more desperate now. Could it be the Merlin?

No, this was different. Was especially about moral corruption. I think the knights would have tried to stop him if he tried to kill him with his bare hands and the Merlin had no reason to belief Harry would use magic to kill him. Without the use of magic to kill Rudolf the white council would not have a case. It would have been a waste of time.

Besides I do not think the Merlin knows how important Murphy was for Harry.

[TrueMonk]

That is a good point, I guess it is back to Marcone/Namshiel. He definately knows how important Murph is to him and their history with Rudolph.

[Mira]

To be honest, I had been thinking if it's not the opposite way. If you are a decent person, it will be easy to resist the urge of harm someone that the urge of painting a tableau or fixing a car. But if you are painting not because you sincerely want it but because the mantle gives you the sudden desire to do it, aren't you losing some of your free will anyway? And almost without realizing it?

That is a very good point, and it is why weak willed Knights become monsters.  Remember back
to Cold Days, every time Harry was attracted to a pretty girl, the mantle was screaming for him to jump her.  It wasn't just mental it was physical as well, Harry had a horrible time with it until he found that physical exercise tamps it down somewhat.

No, this was different. Was especially about moral corruption. I think the knights would have tried to stop him if he tried to kill him with his bare hands and the Merlin had no reason to belief Harry would use magic to kill him. Without the use of magic to kill Rudolf the white council would not have a case. It would have been a waste of time.

Besides I do not think the Merlin knows how important Murphy was for Harry.

I agree, and with the exception of Namshiel/Marcone there were no Denarians mentioned anyway.  And for once oddly the Knights of the Cross and a Denarian were fighting on the same side, though I doubt that that Butters or Sanya were aware of it.

[morriswalters]

Yes, it was his imagination what he thought he smelled because he had almost did an evil deed, but he didn't, he was stopped.  Do you think the odor of sulfur and brimstone was coming off of Michael's sweat when he was trying to beat Father Douglas to death with a baseball bat?  He was doing an evil deed, but Harry stopped him before it was done.

What I think is that Michael didn't attack Harry.

[Basil]

It's possible that Harry's "Wizard Aura" had an effect on Rudolph's gun.  However, I think that it would be unprecedented inasmuch as a firearm is entirely mechanical.  I don't believe that we've seen a wizard or other being hex purely mechanical machines. 

Harry's revolver never malfunctioned because it is purely mechanical.  Harry has stated that he's had issues with semi-autos, but that does not have to be a wizard thing.  Semi-autos can jam.  My Sig can jam. 

The Blue Beetle, McCoy's truck and the Munster Mobile MOSTLY function for them.  That's because while they are old and mostly mechanical, they do have some electronics. 

Given the lengthy setup throughout BG that Rudolph was reckless, stupid, cowardly and had bad trigger discipline, I think that we shouldn't look further than this.  Bradley remarked on it several times.  Bradley also stepped to the side of the door at the childcare place -- because he was scarred that Rudolph would shoot him through the door. 

[Mira]

Given the lengthy setup throughout BG that Rudolph was reckless, stupid, cowardly and had bad trigger discipline, I think that we shouldn't look further than this.  Bradley remarked on it several times.  Bradley also stepped to the side of the door at the childcare place -- because he was scarred that Rudolph would shoot him through the door. 

This has been the description of Rudolph all through the series.

What I think is that Michael didn't attack Harry.

No, but Douglas hadn't murdered Michael's little girl in front of his eyes either. And lets be clear, it wasn't easy for Harry to get through to Michael.

The Warrior

Again the bat swept down, and Douglas fell senseless to the sand.  Michael stood over the man for a moment, his entire body shaking, the bat still upraised. "Michael," I said quietly.  "He hurt my little girl, Harry."  He said with barely repressed rage."He isn't going to hurt her now," I said. "He hurt my little girl." "Michael," I said, gently, "you can't.  If this is how it has to be, I'll do it.  But you can't man."

So as I said, imagine if Michael's little girl had been murdered before his eyes and if he was also on the edge of exhaustion from battle.. Do you think Michael wouldn't have tried to go through Harry to get to Douglas?  Also notice that Harry didn't want this good man, his friend, to become a monster, he offered to take his place. 

When it was over, Michael's reaction and Harry's reaction is much the same to what they almost did.
Again, The Warrior

'Easy,easy," I told him.  "We're done here.  We're done." He stared for another long, silent moment.  He lowered the bat, very slowly, and bowed his head.  He stood there for a minute, his chest heaving, and dropped the bat.  He settled down onto the sand with a wince.  I got up and collected Fidelacchius, returning it to it's sheath.  "Thank you," Michael said quietly. He offered me Amoracchious'shilt.

Harry did hurt his friends who were trying to stop him, so his shame was greater.  However like Michael he thanked both Sanya and Butters for stopping him. 

[morriswalters]

On one hand you use Michael as an example similar to Harry.  And then you say it isn't. I'm unsure how to think about that.

I'm going to leave it at this. You think it's understandable behavior when under high levels of stress to attack anybody or anything that stands between you and the source of your stress. This isn't normally how the world works for humans. And when it does it generally indicates a mental health issue.

I'm not staking a moral position about right or wrong but asking the question, does it align with previous behavior by Harry? And taking a position that it does not.

I'm saying that this behavior is either a product of the mantle, a product of Mab's sending, or something else. I favor something else. Because Jim signals something by using the smell of Brimstone.

He makes an error when he writes Sulfur and Brimstone since they are the same thing, I think rather that it should have been Fire and Brimstone.

[Arjan]

Denarian meddling is quite possible.