Author Topic: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]  (Read 11928 times)

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2020, 12:16:20 AM »
The athame was the tool used to nfect Leah. Your reading suggests that Leah somehow knew before she got it that the athame was somehow conveying a seed (for lack of a better word) of Nemesis.  Yet later on in the series she spits about "treacherous gifts" which suggests that she definitely didn't know that the athame would nfect her.

I just don't buy it.
she already planned on confrontation with Nemesis, "thought I could handle that what stalks us all". I'm not even sure what the Atheme has to do with gainsaying this at all. However, since she knew whose knife it was, it's entirely possible she took the knife to open nemesis up to HER thinking true love would be her protection.
She knew who the blade belonged to, and we have WOJ itself that who the blade belonged to was what was important about it.
Theres nothing to buy.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2020, 01:53:43 AM »
I really hope that JB clarifies this sometime (the moment of infection) because I don't see Nemesis compatible with true love.
Are you saying true love would protect Justine from infection, true love protection would go away if she was infected, or that she couldn't get true love protection if she was infected?

Offline Mira

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2020, 04:42:26 AM »
she already planned on confrontation with Nemesis, "thought I could handle that what stalks us all". I'm not even sure what the Atheme has to do with gainsaying this at all. However, since she knew whose knife it was, it's entirely possible she took the knife to open nemesis up to HER thinking true love would be her protection.
She knew who the blade belonged to, and we have WOJ itself that who the blade belonged to was what was important about it.
Theres nothing to buy.

I don't think Justine planned anything, she is a victim.  Nemeses infected her, brought her sanity while stealthily softening her up for HeWhoWalksBeside.  Her true love burned Thomas when he tried to touch her and feed on her, but it couldn't protect her from Nemeses.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2020, 05:14:38 AM »
I don't think Justine planned anything, she is a victim.  Nemeses infected her, brought her sanity while stealthily softening her up for HeWhoWalksBeside.  Her true love burned Thomas when he tried to touch her and feed on her, but it couldn't protect her from Nemeses.
Leah my dear, not Justine.

Online Dina

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2020, 05:55:45 AM »
(Lea actually, not Leah)

Going back a moment to Justine, has she people pretending to be a risk for her? Or what is that Gary detected? I believe Harry said Lara's people, the feds and another party were following them in PT? (I need to reread it, but I was waiting to do a rereading of the full duology)
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Pirate101

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2020, 06:14:22 AM »
she already planned on confrontation with Nemesis, "thought I could handle that what stalks us all". I'm not even sure what the Atheme has to do with gainsaying this at all. However, since she knew whose knife it was, it's entirely possible she took the knife to open nemesis up to HER thinking true love would be her protection.
She knew who the blade belonged to, and we have WOJ itself that who the blade belonged to was what was important about it.
Theres nothing to buy.
Yes, there is and I'm not buying either😂
It's been a while since this was discussed here but if I remember correctly, the original Morgana was the hottest candidate for who the Athame belonged to. The idea that Lea intentionally grabbed a Nemesis-vector is somewhat special imho. Mab's second would have known better.

Back to Justine: if True love should be incompatible with (an active?) Nemesis-infection, her sudden diet-planning in Ghost Story could have been a ploy to hide the fact that she doesn't have it any more. But I am not convinced. There is no reason to assume that Nemesis changes every aspect of a person. At least not at once. As the protection is what made Justine the perfect agent around Lara, I rather doubt it that Nemesis did not try to conserve it for as long as it could.

Maybe she lost it at some point but she definitely still had it in Turn Coat.

Offline Pirate101

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2020, 06:22:25 AM »
Yes, there is and I'm not buying either😂
It's been a while since this was discussed here but if I remember correctly, the original Morgana was the hottest candidate for who the Athame belonged to. The idea that Lea intentionally grabbed a Nemesis-vector is somewhat special imho. Mab's second would have known better.

Back to Justine: if True love should be incompatible with (an active?) Nemesis-infection, her sudden diet-planning in Ghost Story could have been a ploy to hide the fact that she doesn't have it any more. But I am not convinced. There is no reason to assume that Nemesis changes every aspect of a person. At least not at once. As the protection is what made Justine the perfect agent around Lara, I rather doubt it that Nemesis did not try to conserve it for as long as it could.

Maybe she lost it at some point but she definitely still had it in Turn Coat.

ETA: Maybe that soul-gaze with agent Denton in Fool Moon already showed Nemesis' modus operandi: it clings to a defining aspect of a person and slowly corrupts it. With Denton it was his drive to fight evil, which is also a good quality per se...

Online Dina

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2020, 06:51:42 AM »
Denton was nemfected? (I forgot about him)
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2020, 07:05:39 AM »
@pirate. No there's not cause I'd don't care about selling you on anything. What exists exists, what is is, and the points of my theory stand firm. We already know she tried to take on Nemesis, her knowing better is ilrelavent, she did so with purpose.

Offline Mira

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2020, 10:22:58 AM »
Leah my dear, not Justine.

No, Justine... She didn't plan, Nemeses did..

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2020, 10:30:34 AM »
No, Justine... She didn't plan, Nemeses did..
but I wasn't talking about Justine at all..

Offline Mira

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2020, 10:43:31 AM »
but I wasn't talking about Justine at all..

Okay, sorry.
Quote
she already planned on confrontation with Nemesis, "thought I could handle that what stalks us all". I'm not even sure what the Atheme has to do with gainsaying this at all. However, since she knew whose knife it was, it's entirely possible she took the knife to open nemesis up to HER thinking true love would be her protection.
She knew who the blade belonged to, and we have WOJ itself that who the blade belonged to was what was important about it.
Theres nothing to buy.

I think that was a bit more complicated.  I've wondered if Lea was infested before she got the Knife, because of the way she acted when we first meet her.  I am more convinced now that she was merely power hungry, which left an opening for Nemeses.  This is why this particular gift was selected to be presented to her.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2020, 04:05:00 PM »
Denton was nemfected? (I forgot about him)
There's a WoJ that Nemesis didn't show up on stage until Grave Peril. I think both the Gatekeeper and Lily said the enemy was behind it. If all three statements are true, then Denton wasn't infected but was a tool of Nemesis.

Offline Mira

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2020, 06:08:41 PM »
There's a WoJ that Nemesis didn't show up on stage until Grave Peril. I think both the Gatekeeper and Lily said the enemy was behind it. If all three statements are true, then Denton wasn't infected but was a tool of Nemesis.

Via Cowl, maybe..  I believe it was he who gave Denton the wolf belts.  I think in the soul gaze Harry caught a glimpse of Denton kneeling and taking them from a robed figure.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2020, 06:41:07 PM »
What Lily says about Nemesis in Cold Days:
"A disease. A parasite. A poison... You must have seen the contagion spreading. It has been before your eyes for years. It is a kind of spiritual malady. A mental plague. An infection slowly spreading across the earth. It changes that which ought not change. It destroys a father's love for his family by twisting it into maniacal ambition. It distorts and corrupts the good intentions of agents of mortal law into violence and death. It erodes the sensible fear that keeps a weakly talented sorcerer from reaching out for more power, no matter how terrible the cost. Each of them tainted by the contagion. It destroyed them. I saw what it did to her [Aurora]. I didn't know what was happening to my friend, but I saw it changing her. Twisting her day by day. I loved Aurora like a sister. But in the end, even I could see what she had become."

What Maeve said, with the now-obvious lie about Lea's infection:
"Remember your godmother, bound in ice at Arctis Tor. That was when my mother trapped her and spread the contagion into her. Think of the creatures of Faerie Wyld who have been behaving irregularly and unpredicably. Think of the strange conduct of some of the Houses of the White Court, changing their diets after centuries of stasis. Think of the Fomor, active and aggressive again for the first time in millennia. None of these things is coincidence. It spreads, a force that will upend the world and all of us with it."

SO, the question is, how much is it Beside spreading disinformation to make the threat seem overwhelming and unstoppable, and how much of it is Jim Butcher pulling back the curtain and showing us what's been going on for all these casefiles?