Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]

[Mira]

The problem with Free Will as Jim uses it, is that it is contrived and not subject to analysis. Thousands of choices got Harry to whatever point he gets to. By the time you get to whatever the event is, there really aren't any choices left to make, assuming that Dresden is who he is. You've already made them prior to that instant. Which is what Uriel is saying.

Carry on.

Yup, "the moving finger writes..."  Or if you put your foot in a river you will never put it in the same water again..

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

I've repeatedly said some number of universes are created that are less than all possible choices. To oversimplify my head canon, there are two universes created by every act of free will. One where the actor chooses to act one way and another where they choose to act in a different way. Each choice is a choice to act beyond and in opposition to what an otherwise accurate deterministic model of the Dresdenverse would have predicted.

I get it, Alias. I just disagree - for me such model solves nothing.
Free will against deterministic model - as a split branch - that I can get it. But free will annuling deterministic branch - nope, not really. It's just pointless. Especially since Mab pointed out that destiny is important and branching new timeline from it - is very dangerous.
Which to me suggest original deterministic model of each branch - survives each time, when choice made another one.

Also it assumes each time there is possibility to choice there are two options - both of which are unnatural. So not one choice against own nature, but also for some reason it's dark twin.

Don't buy it. And I see no reason, not even good clue to believe it works that way in DF.
If anything I see clues Universe Prime shall always exists on track, but if you made choice against destiny you shall land into new branch - new dangerous and unpredictable branch.

Determinists would say that the appearance of choice is an illusion and all biology, reason, thinking, etc. just boils down to physics.

Now if each choice in Dresden Files results in all possible choices then indeed it's kinda deterministic.
But removing option 0 as you propose only limits scale of determinism - still if desting says A and you will say B, then A stops to exist, but for some reason C, D, and E are created that can be even further from A and B, and even less plausible... for some reason.

It's like - natural choice is to run, but you stay and fight - you create option B. OK, but why other options are created? What option C when you join your enemies which is even less plausible? Why would it happen at all.

What if there are thousands of possible choices and two universes result?

But we know there are much more universes due to WOJ.
For me choice POSSIBLE is choice that your Reason, your mind, your intellect put on a scales before your Will to act.
Unless such is not presented - you just ran on determined way as you cannot do another thing.

I can imagine stabbing my entire family to death with a knife, but I'd not say I made time-splitting choice by not doing it, as it was mere figment of imagination not something I considered as viable choice.

If not damn - my dopplegangers must be some Jim the Ripper of Multiverse by now. Dammit

The problem with Free Will as Jim uses it, is that it is contrived and not subject to analysis. Thousands of choices got Harry to whatever point he gets to. By the time you get to whatever the event is, there really aren't any choices left to make, assuming that Dresden is who he is. You've already made them prior to that instant. Which is what Uriel is saying.

But we now discuss Dresden Prime perspective but how free will works for multiverse and how mechanism of timeline split works.
Sure previous choices in any timeline are PAST.

[morriswalters]

Mirror Mirror is supposed to be about evil Harry killing other Harry's.  Or am I mistaken? That would imply many splits.

Jim has implied a statistical theory of branching.  When Harry learns the name of Nemesis Mother Summer says that it creates many new possibilities.

Calculation and thought flickered through those green eyes, faster than I could follow. “Ah, yes. I see,” Mother Summer said. “So many new futures unwinding.” “Too many bright ones,” Mother Winter said sullenly. “Even you must think better that than empty night.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 329). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Vadderung describes another form of branching, that of the paradox..

I grunted. “So if I go back in time and kill my grandfather, what happens?” “He beats you senseless, I suspect,” Vadderung said, his gaze direct. Oh, man. Vadderung knew about Ebenezar. Which meant that either he was higher in the old man’s circle of trust than I was, or he had access to an astoundingly scary pool of information. “You know what I mean,” I said. “Paradox? Universe goes poof?” “If it works like that, I’ve never seen it, as evidenced by the fact that . . .” He spread his hands. “Here it is. I suspect a different form of apocalypse happens.” I frowned. “Like what?” “A twinned universe,” Vadderung said. “A new parallel reality, identical except for that event. One in which you never existed, and one in which you failed to kill your grandfather.” I pursed my lips. “That . . . doesn’t really end well for me in either case.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 215). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

So between what Mother Summer showed Harry and what Vadderung theorizes that there could be thousands of branches with Harry in them.  My internal canon would be that to get to those other branches that they would have to be close to Harry Prime to be able to get there.  So for instance, there might be a universe where Harry never manifested his magic, but is unreachable since it's a low probability event and is too far from this timeline. There might be a universe where Susan never became aware of the events at the party, she never becomes infected, and the whole event never triggers the Vampire war.

I cribbed this from the Long Earth, among other sources. Otherwise Free Will and Determinism are just something for philosophers to argue about and for best selling authors to build fictional frame works with.

[Bad Alias]

Also it assumes each time there is possibility to choice there are two options - both of which are unnatural. So not one choice against own nature, but also for some reason it's dark twin.

Why only two  choices and why is one a "dark twin." I guess one is almost always going to result in an at least marginally better world than the other because it's hard to imagine to choices with different but equal results.

It's like - natural choice is to run, but you stay and fight - you create option B. OK, but why other options are created? What option C when you join your enemies which is even less plausible? Why would it happen at all.

Let's say it's one's nature to freeze. If one were to choose to act instead, they can choose to run, fight, or talk one's way out of the situation. If one chooses to run, they can choose to run in any of 360 degrees in all sorts of different manners.

But we know there are much more universes due to WOJ.

But we don't know how many universes result from a choice.

Mirror Mirror is supposed to be about evil Harry killing other Harry's.  Or am I mistaken? That would imply many splits.

Correct. Jim has also explicitly stated that there are a bunch of realities.

I just had a thought about everything Harry does in GP being in character or in line with his nature. There's one thing he did that I think wasn't. Telling Susan that he loved her. I don't see how not telling her results in Harry surviving, but I really think if anything was out of character for Harry, it was that. Recall that Michael had to drag it out of Harry at the very beginning of the book. He didn't want to say that he loved Susan to Michael, who he told about Elaine.

[Dina]

No, I don't think MM is The One. I understood that MM Harry would summon a Harry (which will be ours) to act as a decoy. Only one, as far as I understood.

[BrainFireBob]

Hard to say.
As I said I'm not a fan of this True Love thing - I'd much prefer it to be sort of mental duel with such vampire than some almost excuse random category. With Skavis and Malvora you have to prove your virtue to burn those bastards.

Don't look at it as competition.

All Whamps are supernatural hot.

Only Raith feeds on lust. Raith feeds super easily- other Whamps need to do work to feed- but are most vulnerable, since true love would be most common.

Burning could just be failure to latch. Less technically protection, more "that access port is already in use"

[BrainFireBob]

Dunno. I somehow have a feeling he can stay fridged till BAT, because really I think Butcher had little idea what to do with Thomas overall.

Yes. For instance we could get longer introductions and epilogues to series giving us better vision of what Dresden was doing between books - that's about as much place we needed. (And no Jim no sane reader would pick tome 16 of your series, and just run with it mindlessly. If he does he will notice something is wrong - like you can put list of all the books at the beginning or something).

DO NOT DESCRIBE THEM. Like really. Describe new things. Introduce new things.

Alienates new readers. In theory, each book should be sufficiently self-contained to be picked up and read by someone off the street.

Your being an early fan is your problem, not anyone else's

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Mirror Mirror is supposed to be about evil Harry killing other Harry's.  Or am I mistaken? That would imply many splits.

Overall yes of course. We can safely assume lot of alternative Dresden's.
Especially since it's not Harry's choices splitting universes. I'm quite sure there are many alt-Dresdens put on different path by someone's elses choices around.

Jim has implied a statistical theory of branching.  When Harry learns the name of Nemesis Mother Summer says that it creates many new possibilities.

But I think it's more about his decision what to do about it. I mean he learned name from Titania - if anything choice to call Titania which is risky business for him, is split maker - Titania did her duty afterwards, it seems.

So between what Mother Summer showed Harry and what Vadderung theorizes that there could be thousands of branches with Harry in them.  My internal canon would be that to get to those other branches that they would have to be close to Harry Prime to be able to get there.  So for instance, there might be a universe where Harry never manifested his magic, but is unreachable since it's a low probability event and is too far from this timeline. There might be a universe where Susan never became aware of the events at the party, she never becomes infected, and the whole event never triggers the Vampire war.

That's quite possible. But if it's choices splitting reality - then choice have to be made.
I mean Darth Dresden is from Grave Peril - so he is quite far away. 15 years of different history for both him and supernatural community. Quite far to reach. But then it's possible that's because - if he reaches to close timelines - oh more dangerous necromantic Darth Dresden's there. Better to seek further and find some good Dresden's too kill.

And about Vadderung paradox. Dunno how good this prediction is compared to WOJ.
In my calculation - first there is a choice to do such stupid stunt - that leads us to split - we have world when Dresden thought better, and we have world where Dresden went back in time. We know that if he go back to his timeline nothing will change (if he survives) because it's stil original timeline. But fight itself when started is not much of a choice it seems. It's not like both chances have a 50:50 winning ticket.

Such attacks split reality - as it changes events, but event itself should not be necessarily splittable.

Assuming only one choice - to go back in time and kill McCoy is given - that would imply 3 branches.

1. line when Dresden made choice to not do it
2. line when Dresden decided to do it - depending on whether he survived and returned it may be just line where Dresden just disappeared.
3. split line by timetravel where Dresden tried to murder McCoy - whatever result of such fight - new line is created.

So basically two splits from one choice. That's dangerous inflation. Maybe that's why it's forbidden as you use not enough mana and get too much energy

Why only two  choices and why is one a "dark twin." I guess one is almost always going to result in an at least marginally better world than the other because it's hard to imagine to choices with different but equal results.

That's simplification of course - sure it can be more.
But there is assumption that choice always mean two options - problem is - in your model choice can mean one option vs natural option and still be a choice.

Let's say it's one's nature to freeze. If one were to choose to act instead, they can choose to run, fight, or talk one's way out of the situation. If one chooses to run, they can choose to run in any of 360 degrees in all sorts of different manners.

That's quite problemtic. Panic freeze is not even on a same level as any voluntary action.
It's like assuming you can have free will to walk when someone cut off your legs for me.

But we don't know how many universes result from a choice.

So it's one choice but you get like dozen identical universes (for a moment) with the same choice made?

I just had a thought about everything Harry does in GP being in character or in line with his nature. There's one thing he did that I think wasn't. Telling Susan that he loved her. I don't see how not telling her results in Harry surviving, but I really think if anything was out of character for Harry, it was that. Recall that Michael had to drag it out of Harry at the very beginning of the book. He didn't want to say that he loved Susan to Michael, who he told about Elaine.

But would that mean that admitting to Michael also was a split. I'd assume in one's nature is also certain borders when to fall - naturally. Add enough emotion and even someone keeping cards close can spill the beans.
And situation in "Grave Peril" seems like situation that would make him to do it. His emotional state in this moment is IMHO aligned with this decision.

Only really weird choice - but not for our Harry but Darth Dresden would be to let go of Susan. But it's SO MUCH against Dresden nature I cannot see it as viable choice.
If there's dark choice I can see Harry making in a GP - it's allowing Sword to be destroyed to save Susan. But I'm not sure if there was a proper moment really.

No, I don't think MM is The One. I understood that MM Harry would summon a Harry (which will be ours) to act as a decoy. Only one, as far as I understood.

There's theory it was not a first time, and Darth Dresden is playing a Kemmler.

Don't look at it as competition.

All Whamps are supernatural hot.

Only Raith feeds on lust. Raith feeds super easily- other Whamps need to do work to feed- but are most vulnerable, since true love would be most common.

Burning could just be failure to latch. Less technically protection, more "that access port is already in use"

True love more common than courage or hope that repells fear-eaters and despair-drinkers. I have doubts about this statistics.

Alienates new readers. In theory, each book should be sufficiently self-contained to be picked up and read by someone off the street.

Your being an early fan is your problem, not anyone else's

I get it (although considering how things are repeated WITHIN one book cannot be defended by this claim).
But I consider it overall foolish theory. Especially for Dresden Files - book with apocalyptic metaplot planned since 2000, tighter and tighter every book. Any sane reader after noticing he reads book 17, would well change a book. It's like starting Lord of the Rings from Return of the King.

[Bad Alias]

But there is assumption that choice always mean two options.

Why? Or perhaps by whom? I don't assume there's only two options.

That's quite problemtic. Panic freeze is not even on a same level as any voluntary action.
It's like assuming you can have free will to walk when someone cut off your legs for me.

I'm not going to argue over that. It illustrates the point that there's almost never really a choice between just two things. Even most "binary" choices are more of a spectrum.

So it's one choice but you get like dozen identical universes (for a moment) with the same choice made?

No.

You: But if you have two choices against nature - all shall happen each time you use even one of them. And that's still cheapens what Dresden is doing - because for every choice there are other choices.
Me: What if there are thousands of possible choices and two universes result?
You: But we know there are much more universes due to WOJ.
Me: But we don't know how many universes result from a choice.

I had two points. One was that we don't know how many universes result from a choice. It could be two. It could be dozens. The other was that a choice isn't necessarily from just two options. It's usually almost infinitely variable. So you get a dozen universes that may seem really similar until the butterfly effect starts to make things drastically different, or the things just snowball w/o a butterfly effect. Maybe you just get slightly different realities. You could end up with six drastically different realities and six that are barely different.

But would that mean that admitting to Michael also was a split.

Why? Dresden could easily be willing to admit it to Michael that he loves Susan after Michael pressuring him to while not be willing to say it to Susan.

If there's dark choice I can see Harry making in a GP ...

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a dark choice.

WoJ:

How will the world be different if Harry had made one choice differently.
...
It’s going to be a different character because it’s going to be Dresden as he would have been if he made one choice differently, and the fallout from that effect on his life.

I get the impression what separates MirrorHarry from our Harry is just one choice and the consequences of that choice. I also get the impression that it won't be a choice that Harry would have thought was that monumental. Kind of how Morris keeps saying MM will be more like TOS: The City on the Edge of Forever instead of TOS: Mirror, Mirror.

We'll find out what choice in a few years if Jim gets back to his pre-PT speed.

[Dina]

There's theory it was not a first time, and Darth Dresden is playing a Kemmler.

Ah, ok. Well, we will have to wait and see

I get it (although considering how things are repeated WITHIN one book cannot be defended by this claim).
But I consider it overall foolish theory. Especially for Dresden Files - book with apocalyptic metaplot planned since 2000, tighter and tighter every book. Any sane reader after noticing he reads book 17, would well change a book. It's like starting Lord of the Rings from Return of the King.

I agree. Or worse, like reading Foundation & Earth before reading any other Asimov book.

[Kindler]

When Peace Talks finally broke, I read it and was immediately disappointed. Battle Ground came out, and I loved it.
My problem with these two books is that neither one felt complete. BG felt rushed, PT felt slow. Neither felt right.
Jim said he wound up writing "four-thirds of one book" on his first draft of PT, and wrote the last third of PT and BG to produce two. It didn't feel like that to me. Scenes like Murphy's death, which were emotional for me, just didn't have the kind of impact I felt like they should have.
To me, it felt like Jim wrote one book, then added some things and cut it somewhere in the middle to turn it into two.
I liked the story, I liked the individual scenes, and BG was one hell of a ride, but there's a disjointed sensation to the whole situation that just felt off.