Author Topic: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]  (Read 70498 times)

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #330 on: November 13, 2020, 12:02:11 AM »
Also now I wonder maybe some of you remember:

in Changes when Ebenezer explains to Harry how Mrs. Ortega knew about their kinship, he says she discovered it during some dinner where Ebenezer and her were guest of White King, and he talks to Dresden like they've already talked about LeFay involvement with Raith, yet somehow now Ebenezer is all that shocked about Thomas despite knowing his daughter boinked Raith for who knows how long.

Was there some scene  I forgotten where Dresden discussed this element to Ebe directly while purposefuly ommitting Thomas existence?

Offline Dina

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #331 on: November 13, 2020, 12:08:56 AM »
Yeah, I wondered what was happening with Eb shock. He knew that Margaret was seeing Raith. What did he think she was doing with him? (Ah, but Harry is obviously having sex with Thomas. Or Lara. Or Thomas and Lara)
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Offline vincentric

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #332 on: November 13, 2020, 02:29:52 AM »
A man's daughter is his little angel and he has to have his nose rubbed in it to think poorly of her.

Whereas a man's son has to constantly be reined in lest he repeat his father's mistake or make worst ones.

Reverse that for moms.

Offline Mira

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #333 on: November 13, 2020, 12:29:14 PM »
A man's daughter is his little angel and he has to have his nose rubbed in it to think poorly of her.

Whereas a man's son has to constantly be reined in lest he repeat his father's mistake or make worst ones.

Reverse that for moms.

This^ and a lot of guilt on top of that as well, because he may be blaming himself for why she was tangled up with Raith in the first place. 

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #334 on: November 17, 2020, 08:47:43 PM »
But that would not be urban fantasy if Dresden was living 60 miles from city in some old farm.
Depends on both your definition of urban fantasy and/or where the action of the books takes place. From Wikipedia: Urban fantasy is a genre of fiction, a subgenre of fantasy in which the narrative uses supernatural elements in a 19th-century to 21st-century (or equivalent) urban society. It usually takes place in the present day (or the equivalent of the "present day")." Some define urban fantasy in a way that something like contemporary fantasy would be a better name. Few would describe something like The King Killer Chronicles as urban fantasy even though the majority of it takes place in urban settings that have an Early Modern Era, maybe Renaissance, feel to them.

Also, Harry could live somewhere isolated and work in the city. He'd just have to have a quick/reliable way of traveling to the city.

I can accept few splited timeline, but when according to WOJ each choice split reality it cheapens free will imensely. I mean literally that makes free will some bizzare mechanism to produce more alternative universes, not a real power of choice :P
I totally agree, so I came up with a head canon mechanism that fixes that problem. Every alternate universe creating choice creates multiple universes because in the moment of decision, the person makes multiple choices that are all against that person's nature. So Harry's "natural" decision in GP was to do X. But the Harry we've followed did Y. The Harry(s) we haven't followed did not X and not Y.

Dresden's male gaze can be annoying, but that's I think more part of wider problem of Jim making constant repetitions of descriptions and so on.
Jim's big on physical descriptions. I remember someone going over descriptions of Michael, Sanya, and Bradley. It was kind of similar to how Jim describes all the super attractive women. Thomas's shirtless descriptions are a lot like that too. And as Dina said, it's not just people. Mac's place, Harry's apartment, and the Beetle. At least Harry's apartment and the Beetle change frequently enough.

My point falls back on the only women who was written in the books outside that concept.  Murphy. As poorly as Jim treated her over the course of the books, she deserved a better end then what she got. A talented writer should be able to pull that off and get the emotional punch that he wanted.
Can anyone tell me anything about Murphy's boobs? I don't think they're ever described at all. The closest I can think of is the description of her as having a gymnast's build, and I know what gymnasts typically look like. He doesn't talk about anything specific about Murphy's appearance below her neck until BR, I think.

DO NOT DESCRIBE THEM. Like really. Describe new things. Introduce new things.
Or put them in an index or something if you think it's really necessary for new readers.

I'm fine with Harry marrying Lara. I'm not ok with it being an ideal or happy marriage. It should, at the absolute best, be a content working relationship.

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #335 on: November 18, 2020, 02:30:27 AM »
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Also, Harry could live somewhere isolated and work in the city. He'd just have to have a quick/reliable way of traveling to the city.

I totally agree. I watched a map and really he could totally find place somewhere in Illinois/Wisconsin province and have access to whole Chicago-Milwaukee metropolitan areas for job.

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I totally agree, so I came up with a head canon mechanism that fixes that problem. Every alternate universe creating choice creates multiple universes because in the moment of decision, the person makes multiple choices that are all against that person's nature. So Harry's "natural" decision in GP was to do X. But the Harry we've followed did Y. The Harry(s) we haven't followed did not X and not Y.

But why we assume Mirror!Harry is natural Harry, and our Harry splited history by acting against himself?
Or should we assume each decision creates sort of fake universes that are copies of original one - with fake starting decisions or something?

Or do you mean all decisions were against nature - and all Dresdens are fake or smth? But then why not NATURAL decision?

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Jim's big on physical descriptions. I remember someone going over descriptions of Michael, Sanya, and Bradley. It was kind of similar to how Jim describes all the super attractive women. Thomas's shirtless descriptions are a lot like that too. And as Dina said, it's not just people. Mac's place, Harry's apartment, and the Beetle. At least Harry's apartment and the Beetle change frequently enough.

Yeah, how many times can one listen to Dresden mentions about Butters height dammit.


Offline Arjan

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #336 on: November 18, 2020, 05:47:09 AM »
From what we know of Dresden multiverse you can split of a new universe by making an important free willed choice. There will be universes were you made a different choice.

The mirror universe is about Harry kaping a bad choice at the end of grave peril and ending up evil.
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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #337 on: November 18, 2020, 10:49:38 AM »
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From what we know of Dresden multiverse you can split of a new universe by making an important free willed choice. There will be universes were you made a different choice.

The mirror universe is about Harry kaping a bad choice at the end of grave peril and ending up evil.

Yes. That's exactly my problem - it's cheapening the free will.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #338 on: November 18, 2020, 12:01:22 PM »
Yes. That's exactly my problem - it's cheapening the free will.
Or it is making it more important if your purpose is to create as many universes as you can. Promoting free will becomes suspicious. Uriel!
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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #339 on: November 19, 2020, 01:15:38 AM »
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Or it is making it more important if your purpose is to create as many universes as you can. Promoting free will becomes suspicious. Uriel!

It makes free will important for Creator and protection of Multiverse against OUTSIDE - so Creation grows even when external forces chews on it - but it cheapens importance of choice - because always all choices are made and then consequences separated in separated universes.
Of course subjective passenger Dresden is feels only one - and it matter to him and us in his head, but from external non-subjective point of view - all possible Dresdens exists.

Now the question is whether in finale our Harry will have to gather team of Vampire Harry, Hexenwulf Harry, Denarian Harry and Knight of the Cross Harry to fight against Outsiders multiverse invasion - or maybe he will have to kill all other Harry's like Jet Li to become supreme Harry Dresden - sum of all possible Dresdens - with certain knowledge of all possible outcomes of being Dresden.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #340 on: November 19, 2020, 05:01:44 AM »
“Destiny is a stone cold bitch”

It shows real creativity if you can bend the river and make a new reality. Both Mab and Gard warned that caution was advised because it always bites back. The discussion in BG refers back to the one in DB and also to the one with Uriel in the Warrior short story.

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Offline Mira

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #341 on: November 19, 2020, 12:21:28 PM »
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Now the question is whether in finale our Harry will have to gather team of Vampire Harry, Hexenwulf Harry, Denarian Harry and Knight of the Cross Harry to fight against Outsiders multiverse invasion - or maybe he will have to kill all other Harry's like Jet Li to become supreme Harry Dresden - sum of all possible Dresdens - with certain knowledge of all possible outcomes of being Dresden.

Since Jim has sighted in the past the episode of Star Trek called, Mirror Mirror as his inspiration.  I will give you another that might apply better.   It is another transporter accident, Kirk is split into to men, one, his good gentle side, the other aggressive, cruel, angry...  Turns out that one side cannot survive without the other side and he is in real danger of dying if they don't get both halves together again.  The moral of the episode was it took both sides of Kirk to make him the man he is.  So while cool that "Darthdresden" might pop out, Harry might come to the realization that that aspect of him is as vital as Dresden of the Good Heart..  If he is going to be an effective leader in the BAT, he needs both sides of himself.

Offline Dina

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #342 on: November 19, 2020, 04:45:40 PM »
I like that.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #343 on: November 19, 2020, 07:19:48 PM »
Since Jim has sighted in the past the episode of Star Trek called, Mirror Mirror as his inspiration.  I will give you another that might apply better.   It is another transporter accident, Kirk is split into to men, one, his good gentle side, the other aggressive, cruel, angry...  Turns out that one side cannot survive without the other side and he is in real danger of dying if they don't get both halves together again.  The moral of the episode was it took both sides of Kirk to make him the man he is.  So while cool that "Darthdresden" might pop out, Harry might come to the realization that that aspect of him is as vital as Dresden of the Good Heart..  If he is going to be an effective leader in the BAT, he needs both sides of himself.
Mirror Mirror was never about free will and choice.  It was a fun look at an evil Trek universe. The episode you offer is about decision making. And very subtly is taking issue with how Spock was constructed as a character.  The only episode that dealt with choice and free will was The City On The Edge Of Forever. It looked at how changing one event with the best of intentions creates great evil over time.  I like the idea of an evil Harry.

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #344 on: November 19, 2020, 10:39:22 PM »
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The only episode that dealt with choice and free will was The City On The Edge Of Forever. It looked at how changing one event with the best of intentions creates great evil over time.

But this is more Butterfly Effect one, I think Mirror Mirror will delve more into moral side of things with Jim trying to show how believably Dresden could be corrupted.