Author Topic: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?  (Read 5707 times)

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2020, 01:12:31 AM »
We have no idea what Margaret's childhood was like or where she was reared.  Certainly Harry doesn't.  Who could have told him?

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2020, 04:44:21 AM »
We have no idea what Margaret's childhood was like or where she was reared.  Certainly Harry doesn't.  Who could have told him?

You miss the point, in my husband's case it wasn't that he had a bad childhood, he didn't.  However he resented bitterly the absence of his father, who in his view couldn't be troubled with the burden.  His father's view was all together different and from his view point, practical.  However my husband never saw it. 

As far as Margaret goes, if Eb kept out of her life until she was say eleven or twelve when her talent emerged, and then tried to dictate to her as her master and she an apprentice.  She'd resent it, and eventually rebel and perhaps extend that view to the likes of the White Council.  Harry doesn't have to be told, he can imagine it, it is how he feels he was raised, that is what boiled out of him when Eb suggested he give up Maggie.  God reading that argument brought back flashbacks of what I'd heard before.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2020, 12:51:39 PM »
Is there some place in the text that Eb actually says that he stuck Margaret in a barrel and hid her as a child?  And if there is, could you point me towards it? This, you abandoned me to chance, seems a little out of left field, since Jim hasn't established it in the text. When last I read, we don't know who put Malcolm down and sent Harry to the bad place. That whole grandfather and grandson fight seemed rather poorly contrived and  motivated.

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2020, 03:38:55 PM »
Is there some place in the text that Eb actually says that he stuck Margaret in a barrel and hid her as a child?  And if there is, could you point me towards it? This, you abandoned me to chance, seems a little out of left field, since Jim hasn't established it in the text. When last I read, we don't know who put Malcolm down and sent Harry to the bad place. That whole grandfather and grandson fight seemed rather poorly contrived and  motivated.

Here it is, a pretty good admission on how Eb treated his daughter in her early years or didn't.
page 33 Peace Talks.  Eb first talks about keeping little Maggie safe, and then Harry has his retort.

Quote
I ground my teeth.  "You have a better idea?"
"She needs to be somewhere safe.  Somewhere away from you.  At least until such time as he shows potential talent of her own, so that she can learn to protect herself."
"Assuming she ever does."
"If she doesn't our world will get her killed."
At that I felt my temper rising.  "I guess you did it differently," I said.
"I did do it differently, "he snapped. "I made your mother grew up far away from the dangers of my life."
"How did that work out?" I asked him.  "Let's ask Mom.  Oh, wait.  We can't.  She's dead."

With that retort, Eb really gets pissed..  On page 34 goes on about dangers to little Maggie from monsters etc, because she is living with Harry... Then how Harry really feels
comes out.. page 34 Peace Talks

Quote
"Boy," he said, "don't push me."
"Why?  What are you going to do?  Let me vanish into the foster care system? For my own good of course."
The old man's head rocked back as if I had slapped him.
"Mom died when I was born," I said in monotone.  "Dad when I was coming up on kindergarten.  And you just let me alone."
Ebenezar turned from me and hunched his shoulders.
"Maybe you thought you were protecting me," I continued, without inflection. "But you were also abandoning me.  And it hurt.  It left scars.  I didn't even know you existed, and I was still angry with you."


So there you have it, and it is very close to real life, as I've said, I witnessed and suffered hearing this argument between my husband and his father for years.  My father in law thinking until the day he died that he did the right and practical thing for his children.  And my husband thinking until the day he died, that his father had abandoned him, hurt and angry, and it wasn't worth any financial inheritance he may have gotten from it.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2020, 04:26:08 PM »
It says nothing to the point.  And it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Margaret was 170 or so when she died. Obviously Eb's plan worked. Eventually you grow up. and you can't blame everything that happens to you after that point on Mom and Dad.

And nothing in the text prior to Jim writing that, said that Eb had anything to do with what happened to Harry after Malcolm's death. Jim pulled this out of his ass with no foundation.  And the Morgan short story shows that Morgan believed Justin had done the deed. It never really mentions Eb at all.

All things being equal, if I found myself related to Harry, I'd change my name, move to the Congo and hide in the deep jungle.  Eb is a one man Death Squad who calls down comets and blows up volcano's, with no more of a rationale than he believes it to be the right thing to do. Margaret has murdered with magic, conspired with the Black Council or was at the minimum a fellow traveler, who abandoned one child and arranged the birth of another to create a weapon.

As for Harry, if I was a women I wouldn't get around him without an asbestos suit, body armor and a steel neck protector. He makes deals with no intention of keeping them.  And has a brother who is a serial killer.  He runs a Super Max prison and pisses off everybody at one time or another because he can't shut up.

This is what really shows the Jim is a rare writer, he makes Harry and his friends lovable. :o ;)

Three more days while there is still a Dresden book I haven't read.

Toodles


Offline Arjan

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2020, 05:37:24 PM »
It says nothing to the point.  And it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Margaret was 170 or so when she died. Obviously Eb's plan worked. Eventually you grow up. and you can't blame everything that happens to you after that point on Mom and Dad.
No but you can tell them how damaging their choices were when they start telling you how to raise your child.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2020, 07:42:37 PM »
Quote
It says nothing to the point.  And it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Margaret was 170 or so when she died. Obviously Eb's plan worked. Eventually you grow up. and you can't blame everything that happens to you after that point on Mom and Dad.

I didn't say it was logical, and the parent's reasons may be perfectly sound.  However that doesn't alter the child's sense of being abandoned and the anger of feeling unloved.  Yes, Margaret lived that long, but was the quality of that life after she left Eb's teaching?  Eb admits in Blood Rites that as her master he was too hard on her and in the end she rebelled.  Can you imagine living your life happily for your first eleven or twelve years, suddenly this magical talent appears that you don't understand.   Suddenly this man appears, claims to be your father and demanding the rights of a father and a master, being very strict and hard on you.  Is it such a shock that she'd tell him to go fish?  Or further that she'd extend that experience to the whole magical community who has the same values and go rogue?  Maybe Malcolm was able to redeem her because he loved her and didn't ask anything of her but love.  No, living a hundred and seventy years are great, but if they are mostly unhappy years spent on the hit lists of the Wardens, maybe not so much.
Quote
And nothing in the text prior to Jim writing that, said that Eb had anything to do with what happened to Harry after Malcolm's death. Jim pulled this out of his ass with no foundation.  And the Morgan short story shows that Morgan believed Justin had done the deed. It never really mentions Eb at all.
But that is the whole point!
Quote
"Mom died when I was born," I said in monotone.  "Dad when I was coming up on kindergarten.  And you just let me alone."
Eb did nothing to locate his grandson.  Harry languished in the foster care system for six long years before his talent began to show and Justin got a hold of him.   Yeah, Eb may have barely managed to convince the White Council not to lop his sixteen year old head off.. But it may never had gotten to that point if Eb had stepped in sooner.  Yes, out of guilt [he admits in Blood Rites, but he still doesn't tell Harry he is his grandfather] Eb tries not to make the same mistakes with young 16 year old Harry that he did with Margaret.  However none of that mitigates the pain of those ten long years when Eb was no where around.  Then when he actually gets young Harry, Eb continues to lie to him!  Harry thought he was a god of integrity, it upset him to learn he was Blackstaff, and it was a few years more before he found out he was his grandfather..  Eb may have felt he was doing what was best, but that still doesn't change the anger and betrayal, logical or not that Harry feels upon learning the truth.
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All things being equal, if I found myself related to Harry, I'd change my name, move to the Congo and hide in the deep jungle.  Eb is a one man Death Squad who calls down comets and blows up volcano's, with no more of a rationale than he believes it to be the right thing to do. Margaret has murdered with magic, conspired with the Black Council or was at the minimum a fellow traveler, who abandoned one child and arranged the birth of another to create a weapon.

Harry is still owed the truth, and no matter how bad, it is better he knows the truth and learns to live with it, than be lied to.  Harry's instinct was to avoid his daughter forever out of guilt.  Murphy and Michael talked him out of that, the hard part will come when he has to tell her how her mother died.  Chances are she already knows, she was there.
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As for Harry, if I was a women I wouldn't get around him without an asbestos suit, body armor and a steel neck protector. He makes deals with no intention of keeping them.  And has a brother who is a serial killer.  He runs a Super Max prison and pisses off everybody at one time or another because he can't shut up.

Are you saying Murphy is a stupid woman?  Or how about Susan, they soul gazed and she fainted.  All you say is true, but in his heart, Harry is a good man, remains a good man, ask Michael.
Quote
This is what really shows the Jim is a rare writer, he makes Harry and his friends lovable. :o
And why not?  He isn't a monster, he tries to do the right thing, it may not always work out, but he tries. :-*

Quote
No but you can tell them how damaging their choices were when they start telling you how to raise your child.

Sound advice for grandparents everywhere, even if you did a good job, never give unsolicited advice to your kids on how to raise their own children.  You won't get the appreciation you expected, more than likely, good or not your advice will be resented.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 11:31:29 AM by Mira »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2020, 08:50:24 PM »
The truth is a much over rated commodity.  And if I needed any more of it I would quit reading fiction.  Truth is living in Louisville, Ky. 

However under stress I revert to forms of juvenile fiction where the hero always gets ahead by doing the right thing and working hard.  I have a small series I read where the protagonist loses his mother and fly's off to work in an interstellar trading vessel powered by electromagnetic sails. The first book is about working in the galley and starting a co-op to sell things in a flea market and making boon companions.  Nobody gets killed and nothing really dangerous happens. Heinlein was very good at this as well.

On a humorous note the mods in the Dresden Reddit have suggested that anyone not wanting spoilers should unsubscribe from the Reddit until after they have read the book. A very sane move. 8)

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2020, 11:03:34 PM »
Eb in Peace Talks feels very....odd compared to the past.
Not too odd compared to Changes.

I think there is some woj that Harry and Michael actually did soul gaze.
GP, Chapter 2.

And nothing in the text prior to Jim writing that, said that Eb had anything to do with what happened to Harry after Malcolm's death.
Eb comments on Malcolm's characteristics in BR. From that I assumed Eb had tabs on him. From the Morgan story, I assume he lost tabs on him. From a WoJ, I know my first assumption was right. Harry doesn't know that he was vanished bureaucratically and magically, so he blames Eb for abandoning him in his hour of need.

I'd say Eb didn't abandon Harry to the foster system, but he would have.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2020, 12:11:08 AM »
I know Jim has Eb say that, but exactly how did he know that Margaret had a child in the first place?

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2020, 05:12:19 AM »
Quote
Eb comments on Malcolm's characteristics in BR. From that I assumed Eb had tabs on him. From the Morgan story, I assume he lost tabs on him. From a WoJ, I know my first assumption was right. Harry doesn't know that he was vanished bureaucratically and magically, so he blames Eb for abandoning him in his hour of need.

I'd say Eb didn't abandon Harry to the foster system, but he would have.

 Eb never made an attempt to keep tabs on Malcolm or his grandson.  Remember Morgan said Margaret asked him to keep tabs on Harry, Eb was never mentioned.  I doubt that Morgan knew the connection between Eb and Harry.  Still doesn't account for Eb not telling Harry who he was when he went to live with him. 

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2020, 08:23:42 PM »
I know Jim has Eb say that, but exactly how did he know that Margaret had a child in the first place?
Him and his other wizard friends kept an eye on her. At least the Gatekeeper did.

Eb never made an attempt to keep tabs on Malcolm or his grandson.
Did so.

Remember Morgan said Margaret asked him to keep tabs on Harry, Eb was never mentioned.  I doubt that Morgan knew the connection between Eb and Harry.
Doesn't mean Eb didn't keep tabs on them too.

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2020, 08:37:02 PM »
Quote
Doesn't mean Eb didn't keep tabs on them too.

There is no evidence that he ever did.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2020, 09:16:12 PM »
Yes there is. There's some in BR.

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2020, 10:52:15 PM »
Yes there is. There's some in BR.

No, there isn't.  Eb admits he knew when Harry was born, that Raith killed his mother,that he tried to kill him, but he wasn't able. He says that it wasn't Harry's fault he got raised by that "SOB DuMorne."  However he doesn't say that he knew anything about the adoption when it happened or found out after the fact at Harry's trial.  The Council with a couple of exceptions, Rashid for one knew Harry was the son of Margaret, but apparently not that Eb was her father.

Then Eb admits the mistakes he made with Margaret.  Page 302 Blood Rites. Also confirming the
impression that he had nothing to do with her until she came into her power around twelve or so.

Quote
"I failed her.  He chewed his lip.  "Harry. . .when Maggie was coming into her power, I made her life a living hell.  She was barely more than a child, but I rode herd on her night and day, I pushed her to learn.  To excel.  But I was too close.  Too involved.  And she resented it.  She ran off as soon as she could get away with it.

He said he didn't want to make the same mistakes with Harry, but he never told him that Margaret was his daughter or Harry his grandson.  Harry hurt and pissed because Eb never told him he knew his mother, who he knew nothing about. Then Harry got really pissed because Eb had lied to him from the beginning.  They kind of made up in the intervening books, but when Eb presumed to tell Harry that little Maggie was better off without him, it ripped open those wounds all over again.