ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Silentbrick on September 25, 2020, 03:58:54 AM

Title: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Silentbrick on September 25, 2020, 03:58:54 AM
My wife just mentioned a theory that Eb, mad that Harry was allowing Thomas to be near Maggie, worked a mind magic whammy on Thomas to try and kill Etri.  Obviously Eb is pretty psycho about hating the White Court, and I find it just as plausible that Eb whammied Thomas as Justine being nemfected.  Eb also 'tested' the Svartalfs security when he visited and mentioned how they occasionally needed to be reminded they couldn't control everything.

Personally, I don't know.  I don't /want/ to think Eb would do it, but honestly, Eb in Peace Talks feels very....odd compared to the past.   Very out of character in some ways.

Anyway, thoughts and comments on it are appreciated.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Silentbrick on September 25, 2020, 04:05:09 AM
And she just pointed out, are we sure that Eb is Eb?  She mentioned that maybe someone is actually impersonating him?  She said Thomas might have been saying "Justin" not Justine and that possibly Justin is impersonating them.  Eb keeps mentioning someone coming up behind Harry, that the scales must be balanced. 
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: JumpyDragon on September 25, 2020, 05:55:16 AM
Hmmm...maybe. I was pointed out that when Harry found Thomas being held prisoner, Thomas was still wearing his running shoes. I was also told that hardcore runners do NOT wear their running shoes out and about. While Thomas may not be a hardcore runner, I don't see him walking around in his jogging gear for hours on end after the fact. So, the idea that I heard is that Thomas was captured rather quickly after he left the apartment. Harry and Eb were together for a while.

That being said, the whole Eb mind whammy Thomas could be possible. I agree that Eb is not the same in this book. He's been giving me serious alarm bells.  I personally think that Eb is Nemfected. It would be damn near impossible for a normal wizard to mind whammy Eb due to his age.

I personally don't think Thomas is in his straight mindset (besides being beaten silly to a pulp and severely hungry) either.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 25, 2020, 11:56:31 AM
Quote
I personally don't think Thomas is in his straight mindset (besides being beaten silly to a pulp and severely hungry) either.

Yeah, that has struck me from the beginning also, either the elves are tough little SOBs or it isn't Thomas.  As far as the shoes and clothes go, you could be right.

However, a couple of things, for starters something was weird about Thomas during their run.  Yes,
he was nervous and anxious over Justine and the baby, but he also sort of alluded to having a plan
to having a plan of some sort to deal with it. It was subtle and easy to miss, but he made it.

Would Lara have been that easily fooled?  I mean she was feeding his Hunger to keep him alive.
If it had been someone else, I think she would have felt it.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: ClintACK on September 25, 2020, 05:21:59 PM
That was my theory at the time, too. Remember that the two points he wanted to make to Harry were: (1) Thomas isn't safe to have around Maggie and (2) the Svartalves aren't who he thinks they are -- the embassy isn't a safe place to raise Maggie.

This little 'incident' would illustrate both points admirably.

And, oh look, Maggie's not living at the svartalf embassy any more. And Thomas isn't going to be around her for the foreseeable future.

But we'll all know in a few days...
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 25, 2020, 05:44:28 PM
Quote
That was my theory at the time, too. Remember that the two points he wanted to make to Harry were: (1) Thomas isn't safe to have around Maggie and (2) the Svartalves aren't who he thinks they are -- the embassy isn't a safe place to raise Maggie.

We also know now that Eb is a bit out of control.  He also said that Maggie shouldn't be around Harry either.  He thought she should have remained at the Carpenters, though he didn't know that Michael encouraged  Harry to make a home for her and to be a father.  But then Michael knows Harry a lot better than Eb does even without a soul gaze.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Silentbrick on September 25, 2020, 05:47:24 PM
To be fair, Michael I think is a much better father than Eb was.  Sure his daughter is a warlock and now Winter Lady, but the rest of the kids are fine.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 25, 2020, 05:53:04 PM
To be fair, Michael I think is a much better father than Eb was.  Sure his daughter is a warlock and now Winter Lady, but the rest of the kids are fine.

Nothing wrong with Molly either, she rebelled a bit, not unlike any other teen no matter how well brought up.  What complicated matters for her was she had talent and no idea the dangers of that.
Let's not forget that yes, she went down the warlock path or started down that path in an effort to help her friends.  She had no idea that it was wrong to go into someone's mind, to try and influence that mind, and that she could be doing everlasting harm by doing it.  Nor did she know that that act in of itself could be addictive.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Arjan on September 25, 2020, 07:12:10 PM
We also know now that Eb is a bit out of control.  He also said that Maggie shouldn't be around Harry either.  He thought she should have remained at the Carpenters, though he didn't know that Michael encouraged  Harry to make a home for her and to be a father.  But then Michael knows Harry a lot better than Eb does even without a soul gaze.
I think there is some woj that Harry and Michael actually did soul gaze.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: BrainFireBob on September 25, 2020, 07:47:12 PM
My wife just mentioned a theory that Eb, mad that Harry was allowing Thomas to be near Maggie, worked a mind magic whammy on Thomas to try and kill Etri.  Obviously Eb is pretty psycho about hating the White Court, and I find it just as plausible that Eb whammied Thomas as Justine being nemfected.  Eb also 'tested' the Svartalfs security when he visited and mentioned how they occasionally needed to be reminded they couldn't control everything.

Personally, I don't know.  I don't /want/ to think Eb would do it, but honestly, Eb in Peace Talks feels very....odd compared to the past.   Very out of character in some ways.

Anyway, thoughts and comments on it are appreciated.

If the corner hounds show up when someone time-travels, and the Blackstaff can break any of the Laws with immunity, then there may have been two Ebs running around. He's particularly insistent on finding out that Eitri is nearby, and also making sure that everyone is a) Paying attention to him and not other places, and b) Noticing that he's nowhere near Thomas.

So, extend it a step: The Eb we see is possibly a time traveled Eb, or there is one outside whammying Thomas when this one is talking to Harry. When did he go back? Right after he and Harry confront each other outside Justine's. It's even perfect timing- he has a starborn to cover the cornerhounds for him.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 25, 2020, 08:11:07 PM
I think there is some woj that Harry and Michael actually did soul gaze.

I remember that vaguely as well, but I wasn't sure.  So who's judgement do we trust here?  Eb
who did a soul gaze with the angry teenage Harry?  Or Michael who did one sometime later and thinks Harry will do fine as a father?
Quote
If the corner hounds show up when someone time-travels, and the Blackstaff can break any of the Laws with immunity, then there may have been two Ebs running around. He's particularly insistent on finding out that Eitri is nearby, and also making sure that everyone is a) Paying attention to him and not other places, and b) Noticing that he's nowhere near Thomas.

As Outsiders they are called up by mortals, that is mentioned in Peace Talks as the fight is happening and it is also a factor in Blood Rites when Madge and friends called up HWWB.
Quote
So, extend it a step: The Eb we see is possibly a time traveled Eb, or there is one outside whammying Thomas when this one is talking to Harry. When did he go back? Right after he and Harry confront each other outside Justine's. It's even perfect timing- he has a starborn to cover the cornerhounds for him.
I think that is making things a little too complicated, even for Jim.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Arjan on September 25, 2020, 08:27:43 PM
I remember that vaguely as well, but I wasn't sure.  So who's judgement do we trust here?  Eb
who did a soul gaze with the angry teenage Harry?  Or Michael who did one sometime later and thinks Harry will do fine as a father?
it is not about Harry’s qualities as a father. It is about safety and how to best protect the child.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 25, 2020, 08:37:51 PM
it is not about Harry’s qualities as a father. It is about safety and how to best protect the child.

 Not saying safety isn't important, but it doesn't mean much if she doesn't have a loving parent.  I can think of a lot of important people who's children are vulnerable to a degree because of who their parents are.  Yet their kids aren't taken away from them.  Harry was right, Susan kept little Maggie away from him, didn't even tell him she existed, kept them away from herself, yet Maggie's foster parents were murdered before her eyes and the Red King nearly slit her throat.  If safety and protection were so great, how come things didn't turn out well for Margaret?  Harry is scared for life because after Malcolm died, he may have been safe, but he wasn't loved. 

A kid needs love, with love comes security, the rest can be handled one way or another.  Michael agrees with that, he wouldn't have agreed to turn Maggie over to Harry if he thought she'd come to harm. 
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Arjan on September 25, 2020, 09:14:40 PM
Not saying safety isn't important, but it doesn't mean much if she doesn't have a loving parent.  I can think of a lot of important people who's children are vulnerable to a degree because of who their parents are.  Yet their kids aren't taken away from them.  Harry was right, Susan kept little Maggie away from him, didn't even tell him she existed, kept them away from herself, yet Maggie's foster parents were murdered before her eyes and the Red King nearly slit her throat.  If safety and protection were so great, how come things didn't turn out well for Margaret?  Harry is scared for life because after Malcolm died, he may have been safe, but he wasn't loved. 

A kid needs love, with love comes security, the rest can be handled one way or another.  Michael agrees with that, he wouldn't have agreed to turn Maggie over to Harry if he thought she'd come to harm.
But that was not the point. The point was that Ebenezer's policy to hide children from everyone was not based on parental qualities so any soul gaze was irrelevant. Harry could be the best father in the world and Ebenezar would not think any different about it.

Michael and Harry do think giving Maggie good and real parents is worth the risk, Ebenezer does not.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 25, 2020, 11:11:22 PM
But that was not the point. The point was that Ebenezer's policy to hide children from everyone was not based on parental qualities so any soul gaze was irrelevant. Harry could be the best father in the world and Ebenezar would not think any different about it.

Michael and Harry do thing giving Maggie good and real parents is worth the risk, Ebenezer does not.

Yes, that is what I am saying and what Harry and Michael are saying has merit.  Now is Eb saying this because he really believe it?  Or is it his way to justify how both his grandson and his daughter's life were messed up because he wasn't in their lives when they needed a father and a grandfather?
It rings true from my experience, I was married to a man for forty years who was shipped off to another state along with his brothers and sister after his mother died because living with his maiden aunt in a small town was considered more wholesome than Chicago.  Harry sounds a lot like my husband did on the subject, just a bit bitter. And guess what? His father sounded a whole lot like Eb..  Know what else?  They never were able to resolve it.  So it will be interesting to see how the fantasy works out if Eb survives the coming battle.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: morriswalters on September 26, 2020, 01:12:31 AM
We have no idea what Margaret's childhood was like or where she was reared.  Certainly Harry doesn't.  Who could have told him?
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 26, 2020, 04:44:21 AM
We have no idea what Margaret's childhood was like or where she was reared.  Certainly Harry doesn't.  Who could have told him?

You miss the point, in my husband's case it wasn't that he had a bad childhood, he didn't.  However he resented bitterly the absence of his father, who in his view couldn't be troubled with the burden.  His father's view was all together different and from his view point, practical.  However my husband never saw it. 

As far as Margaret goes, if Eb kept out of her life until she was say eleven or twelve when her talent emerged, and then tried to dictate to her as her master and she an apprentice.  She'd resent it, and eventually rebel and perhaps extend that view to the likes of the White Council.  Harry doesn't have to be told, he can imagine it, it is how he feels he was raised, that is what boiled out of him when Eb suggested he give up Maggie.  God reading that argument brought back flashbacks of what I'd heard before.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: morriswalters on September 26, 2020, 12:51:39 PM
Is there some place in the text that Eb actually says that he stuck Margaret in a barrel and hid her as a child?  And if there is, could you point me towards it? This, you abandoned me to chance, seems a little out of left field, since Jim hasn't established it in the text. When last I read, we don't know who put Malcolm down and sent Harry to the bad place. That whole grandfather and grandson fight seemed rather poorly contrived and  motivated.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 26, 2020, 03:38:55 PM
Is there some place in the text that Eb actually says that he stuck Margaret in a barrel and hid her as a child?  And if there is, could you point me towards it? This, you abandoned me to chance, seems a little out of left field, since Jim hasn't established it in the text. When last I read, we don't know who put Malcolm down and sent Harry to the bad place. That whole grandfather and grandson fight seemed rather poorly contrived and  motivated.

Here it is, a pretty good admission on how Eb treated his daughter in her early years or didn't.
page 33 Peace Talks.  Eb first talks about keeping little Maggie safe, and then Harry has his retort.

Quote
I ground my teeth.  "You have a better idea?"
"She needs to be somewhere safe.  Somewhere away from you.  At least until such time as he shows potential talent of her own, so that she can learn to protect herself."
"Assuming she ever does."
"If she doesn't our world will get her killed."
At that I felt my temper rising.  "I guess you did it differently," I said.
"I did do it differently, "he snapped. "I made your mother grew up far away from the dangers of my life."
"How did that work out?" I asked him.  "Let's ask Mom.  Oh, wait.  We can't.  She's dead."

With that retort, Eb really gets pissed..  On page 34 goes on about dangers to little Maggie from monsters etc, because she is living with Harry... Then how Harry really feels
comes out.. page 34 Peace Talks

Quote
"Boy," he said, "don't push me."
"Why?  What are you going to do?  Let me vanish into the foster care system? For my own good of course."
The old man's head rocked back as if I had slapped him.
"Mom died when I was born," I said in monotone.  "Dad when I was coming up on kindergarten.  And you just let me alone."
Ebenezar turned from me and hunched his shoulders.
"Maybe you thought you were protecting me," I continued, without inflection. "But you were also abandoning me.  And it hurt.  It left scars.  I didn't even know you existed, and I was still angry with you."


So there you have it, and it is very close to real life, as I've said, I witnessed and suffered hearing this argument between my husband and his father for years.  My father in law thinking until the day he died that he did the right and practical thing for his children.  And my husband thinking until the day he died, that his father had abandoned him, hurt and angry, and it wasn't worth any financial inheritance he may have gotten from it.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: morriswalters on September 26, 2020, 04:26:08 PM
It says nothing to the point.  And it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Margaret was 170 or so when she died. Obviously Eb's plan worked. Eventually you grow up. and you can't blame everything that happens to you after that point on Mom and Dad.

And nothing in the text prior to Jim writing that, said that Eb had anything to do with what happened to Harry after Malcolm's death. Jim pulled this out of his ass with no foundation.  And the Morgan short story shows that Morgan believed Justin had done the deed. It never really mentions Eb at all.

All things being equal, if I found myself related to Harry, I'd change my name, move to the Congo and hide in the deep jungle.  Eb is a one man Death Squad who calls down comets and blows up volcano's, with no more of a rationale than he believes it to be the right thing to do. Margaret has murdered with magic, conspired with the Black Council or was at the minimum a fellow traveler, who abandoned one child and arranged the birth of another to create a weapon.

As for Harry, if I was a women I wouldn't get around him without an asbestos suit, body armor and a steel neck protector. He makes deals with no intention of keeping them.  And has a brother who is a serial killer.  He runs a Super Max prison and pisses off everybody at one time or another because he can't shut up.

This is what really shows the Jim is a rare writer, he makes Harry and his friends lovable. :o ;)

Three more days while there is still a Dresden book I haven't read.

Toodles

Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Arjan on September 26, 2020, 05:37:24 PM
It says nothing to the point.  And it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Margaret was 170 or so when she died. Obviously Eb's plan worked. Eventually you grow up. and you can't blame everything that happens to you after that point on Mom and Dad.
No but you can tell them how damaging their choices were when they start telling you how to raise your child.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 26, 2020, 07:42:37 PM
Quote
It says nothing to the point.  And it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Margaret was 170 or so when she died. Obviously Eb's plan worked. Eventually you grow up. and you can't blame everything that happens to you after that point on Mom and Dad.

I didn't say it was logical, and the parent's reasons may be perfectly sound.  However that doesn't alter the child's sense of being abandoned and the anger of feeling unloved.  Yes, Margaret lived that long, but was the quality of that life after she left Eb's teaching?  Eb admits in Blood Rites that as her master he was too hard on her and in the end she rebelled.  Can you imagine living your life happily for your first eleven or twelve years, suddenly this magical talent appears that you don't understand.   Suddenly this man appears, claims to be your father and demanding the rights of a father and a master, being very strict and hard on you.  Is it such a shock that she'd tell him to go fish?  Or further that she'd extend that experience to the whole magical community who has the same values and go rogue?  Maybe Malcolm was able to redeem her because he loved her and didn't ask anything of her but love.  No, living a hundred and seventy years are great, but if they are mostly unhappy years spent on the hit lists of the Wardens, maybe not so much.
Quote
And nothing in the text prior to Jim writing that, said that Eb had anything to do with what happened to Harry after Malcolm's death. Jim pulled this out of his ass with no foundation.  And the Morgan short story shows that Morgan believed Justin had done the deed. It never really mentions Eb at all.
But that is the whole point!
Quote
"Mom died when I was born," I said in monotone.  "Dad when I was coming up on kindergarten.  And you just let me alone."
Eb did nothing to locate his grandson.  Harry languished in the foster care system for six long years before his talent began to show and Justin got a hold of him.   Yeah, Eb may have barely managed to convince the White Council not to lop his sixteen year old head off.. But it may never had gotten to that point if Eb had stepped in sooner.  Yes, out of guilt [he admits in Blood Rites, but he still doesn't tell Harry he is his grandfather] Eb tries not to make the same mistakes with young 16 year old Harry that he did with Margaret.  However none of that mitigates the pain of those ten long years when Eb was no where around.  Then when he actually gets young Harry, Eb continues to lie to him!  Harry thought he was a god of integrity, it upset him to learn he was Blackstaff, and it was a few years more before he found out he was his grandfather..  Eb may have felt he was doing what was best, but that still doesn't change the anger and betrayal, logical or not that Harry feels upon learning the truth.
Quote
All things being equal, if I found myself related to Harry, I'd change my name, move to the Congo and hide in the deep jungle.  Eb is a one man Death Squad who calls down comets and blows up volcano's, with no more of a rationale than he believes it to be the right thing to do. Margaret has murdered with magic, conspired with the Black Council or was at the minimum a fellow traveler, who abandoned one child and arranged the birth of another to create a weapon.

Harry is still owed the truth, and no matter how bad, it is better he knows the truth and learns to live with it, than be lied to.  Harry's instinct was to avoid his daughter forever out of guilt.  Murphy and Michael talked him out of that, the hard part will come when he has to tell her how her mother died.  Chances are she already knows, she was there.
Quote
As for Harry, if I was a women I wouldn't get around him without an asbestos suit, body armor and a steel neck protector. He makes deals with no intention of keeping them.  And has a brother who is a serial killer.  He runs a Super Max prison and pisses off everybody at one time or another because he can't shut up.

Are you saying Murphy is a stupid woman?  Or how about Susan, they soul gazed and she fainted.  All you say is true, but in his heart, Harry is a good man, remains a good man, ask Michael.
Quote
This is what really shows the Jim is a rare writer, he makes Harry and his friends lovable. :o
And why not?  He isn't a monster, he tries to do the right thing, it may not always work out, but he tries. :-*

Quote
No but you can tell them how damaging their choices were when they start telling you how to raise your child.

Sound advice for grandparents everywhere, even if you did a good job, never give unsolicited advice to your kids on how to raise their own children.  You won't get the appreciation you expected, more than likely, good or not your advice will be resented.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: morriswalters on September 27, 2020, 08:50:24 PM
The truth is a much over rated commodity.  And if I needed any more of it I would quit reading fiction.  Truth is living in Louisville, Ky. 

However under stress I revert to forms of juvenile fiction where the hero always gets ahead by doing the right thing and working hard.  I have a small series I read where the protagonist loses his mother and fly's off to work in an interstellar trading vessel powered by electromagnetic sails. The first book is about working in the galley and starting a co-op to sell things in a flea market and making boon companions.  Nobody gets killed and nothing really dangerous happens. Heinlein was very good at this as well.

On a humorous note the mods in the Dresden Reddit have suggested that anyone not wanting spoilers should unsubscribe from the Reddit until after they have read the book. A very sane move. 8)
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Bad Alias on September 27, 2020, 11:03:34 PM
Eb in Peace Talks feels very....odd compared to the past.
Not too odd compared to Changes.

I think there is some woj that Harry and Michael actually did soul gaze.
GP, Chapter 2.

And nothing in the text prior to Jim writing that, said that Eb had anything to do with what happened to Harry after Malcolm's death.
Eb comments on Malcolm's characteristics in BR. From that I assumed Eb had tabs on him. From the Morgan story, I assume he lost tabs on him. From a WoJ, I know my first assumption was right. Harry doesn't know that he was vanished bureaucratically and magically, so he blames Eb for abandoning him in his hour of need.

I'd say Eb didn't abandon Harry to the foster system, but he would have.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: morriswalters on September 28, 2020, 12:11:08 AM
I know Jim has Eb say that, but exactly how did he know that Margaret had a child in the first place?
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 28, 2020, 05:12:19 AM
Quote
Eb comments on Malcolm's characteristics in BR. From that I assumed Eb had tabs on him. From the Morgan story, I assume he lost tabs on him. From a WoJ, I know my first assumption was right. Harry doesn't know that he was vanished bureaucratically and magically, so he blames Eb for abandoning him in his hour of need.

I'd say Eb didn't abandon Harry to the foster system, but he would have.

 Eb never made an attempt to keep tabs on Malcolm or his grandson.  Remember Morgan said Margaret asked him to keep tabs on Harry, Eb was never mentioned.  I doubt that Morgan knew the connection between Eb and Harry.  Still doesn't account for Eb not telling Harry who he was when he went to live with him. 
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Bad Alias on September 28, 2020, 08:23:42 PM
I know Jim has Eb say that, but exactly how did he know that Margaret had a child in the first place?
Him and his other wizard friends kept an eye on her. At least the Gatekeeper did.

Eb never made an attempt to keep tabs on Malcolm or his grandson.
Did so.

Remember Morgan said Margaret asked him to keep tabs on Harry, Eb was never mentioned.  I doubt that Morgan knew the connection between Eb and Harry.
Doesn't mean Eb didn't keep tabs on them too.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 28, 2020, 08:37:02 PM
Quote
Doesn't mean Eb didn't keep tabs on them too.

There is no evidence that he ever did.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Bad Alias on September 28, 2020, 09:16:12 PM
Yes there is. There's some in BR.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 28, 2020, 10:52:15 PM
Yes there is. There's some in BR.

No, there isn't.  Eb admits he knew when Harry was born, that Raith killed his mother,that he tried to kill him, but he wasn't able. He says that it wasn't Harry's fault he got raised by that "SOB DuMorne."  However he doesn't say that he knew anything about the adoption when it happened or found out after the fact at Harry's trial.  The Council with a couple of exceptions, Rashid for one knew Harry was the son of Margaret, but apparently not that Eb was her father.

Then Eb admits the mistakes he made with Margaret.  Page 302 Blood Rites. Also confirming the
impression that he had nothing to do with her until she came into her power around twelve or so.

Quote
"I failed her.  He chewed his lip.  "Harry. . .when Maggie was coming into her power, I made her life a living hell.  She was barely more than a child, but I rode herd on her night and day, I pushed her to learn.  To excel.  But I was too close.  Too involved.  And she resented it.  She ran off as soon as she could get away with it.

He said he didn't want to make the same mistakes with Harry, but he never told him that Margaret was his daughter or Harry his grandson.  Harry hurt and pissed because Eb never told him he knew his mother, who he knew nothing about. Then Harry got really pissed because Eb had lied to him from the beginning.  They kind of made up in the intervening books, but when Eb presumed to tell Harry that little Maggie was better off without him, it ripped open those wounds all over again.

Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Bad Alias on September 28, 2020, 11:44:29 PM
How did Ebeneezer know anything about Malcolm, like the nature of his "soul?"
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: morriswalters on September 29, 2020, 04:46:30 PM
When Jim tells you, you'll know for certain, assuming he doesn't change his mind and retcon it in some fashion.  What you can get from the text is that Eb had orders to kill her and that nobody that Jim has yet introduced was with Maggie when she died.  She was alone.  Malcolm had to be the one to tell him assuming that Malcolm knew how to reach him. Otherwise it was Morgan.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Mira on September 29, 2020, 05:30:47 PM
How did Ebeneezer know anything about Malcolm, like the nature of his "soul?"

Eb soul gazed him, he says as much back in Blood Rites, "as good a soul as I've ever seen."

Quote
When Jim tells you, you'll know for certain, assuming he doesn't change his mind and retcon it in some fashion.  What you can get from the text is that Eb had orders to kill her and that nobody that Jim has yet introduced was with Maggie when she died.  She was alone.  Malcolm had to be the one to tell him assuming that Malcolm knew how to reach him. Otherwise it was Morgan.

Unless she was going to have her baby at home, I always assumed that Margaret had Harry in the hospital.  I'm not sure whether or not Malcolm was with her when she died.  I seem to remember it both ways, one that he was, yet another that he was on the road when it happened.  I think, first child and all that Malcolm was with her.  When he found out, Eb understood immediately what the cause of death was and who was behind it.  Malcolm warned took off with Baby Harry as soon as they'd allow him out of the hospital.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Yuillegan on September 30, 2020, 01:24:48 AM
Well, this theory got debunked. Still, interesting idea. Also, BG sort of shows Eb isn't an out-and-out bad guy. Not necessarily totally good. But hardly Black Council.
Title: Re: Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?
Post by: Bad Alias on October 01, 2020, 06:54:11 PM
Eb soul gazed him, he says as much back in Blood Rites, "as good a soul as I've ever seen."
So there is evidence that he kept tabs on them.