Author Topic: Elaine  (Read 8699 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Elaine
« on: June 08, 2020, 03:54:00 AM »
During White Night, she says to Harry that she likes his new shield. Except the last time she would have seen that shield would have been when he was sixteen...so naturally it would be different. Unless she saw it more recently...in Dead Beat. She never sees it in Summer Knight.

Offline Maz

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2020, 02:41:10 PM »
I'm not sure thats an accurate statement, I'd have to dig through the book.  Ellaine was operating a lot behind the scenes and I seem to recall her disarming him at the end of the book when they were leaving him to die.  Either under a veil or at that time I'd think she'd have seen it?

Offline Mira

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2020, 02:42:42 PM »

   It could be that Jim hadn't fleshed out Elaine's character well enough yet.  The versions of the day
Harry cut class and returned home to Elaine and Justin also changed in the first few books. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2020, 02:55:05 PM »
Since Summer Knight. That is when they met.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2020, 03:40:53 PM »
Since Summer Knight. That is when they met.

   However if I remember correctly before Summer Knight Harry had flashbacks that don't quite
match.  Having said that, it might be seen as a PTSD matter for both of them.   So Elaine may
simply have not noticed Harry's shield bracelet because she was still suffering from in her own way
not just Harry's final encounter with Justin, but her own as well.

Offline g33k

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2020, 08:27:32 PM »
Lea says in Ghost Story -- and she's speaking the truth, because the Fae never explicitly lie -- that his memories in spirit-form are not burdened by the weaknesses of the flesh.  What he remembered during those scenes were what he experienced at the time, un-altered by the meat and the hormones & etc.

Not necessarily "the truth" because the memories were formed under stress, in extreme emotional turmoil, and possibly in the face of illusions or mind-warping magic, etc etc etc.  But not warped by the vagaries of time and the re-processing and "creative remembering" that everybody does over time.
 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 04:48:09 AM by g33k »

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2020, 08:47:02 PM »
We know that Harry updates his shield after his hand gets burned with napalm at Mavra’s lair in BR. He uses the newer, upgraded shield in Changes to great effect in the duel against Ariana - his upgrades allow him to defend against steam as well.

Elaine hasn’t seen Harry since SK so she wouldn’t have noticed the upgrades he made after BR till their paths cross again in WK. Unless she’s Kumori, in which case she’s lying to mislead Harry & us the readers.


Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2020, 05:20:00 AM »
I have a digital copy of Summer Knight and looking through it, there is no scene where Elaine is in (openly) that she would have seen him use a shield. Not a one.

Harry builds his new shield after Summer Knight, in Blood Rites. So if she had seen his old shield in Summer Knight her comment would make more sense. Except she didn't. The first time she sees his shield (as Elaine - openly) is in White Night. Which is 16 years later.

Now it is possible she is surprised after 16 years about how good Harry's new shield is. But she shouldn't be unless she expected him to not improve at all. Not only that, the last time she saw him before White Night she sees him in combat several times and ends up defeating a Sidhe lord and a Summer Queen (admittedly the least of them, but still). So she knows he has improved. He doesn't once use his shield infront of her in Summer Knight though. And I find it difficult to believe she would have seen his bracelet (which would mostly have been concealed by his duster or shirt) and not commented.

Which leaves the only other option: she has seen him use it in combat whilst remaining hidden. If she were his friend why would she do that? The answer of course is that she isn't really. Perhaps she has conflicting interests or orders. But a prime event that she could have seen his shield?

When he duels Cowl.

He uses his old shield and it wasn't very effective.

So, if someone has an event where she could have seen his shield in Summer Knight please point me in the direction. I already considered the hardware store scene and she actually was not in the place, she was creating a mindfog from afar.

Maz - She doesn't disarm him exactly. He gets clubbed over the head and he smells Elaine's perfume. The implication is that Korrick is the one that does it (as he is the Unicorn in disguise). He doesn't use the shield fighting the Unicorn before he meets the Mothers either.

Mira - Certainly possible it was just an oversight or mistake in White Night. But Jim's pretty tricksy...he lays clues down decades in advance. So I am not so sure it was a mistake.

Arjan - where does she see it in Summer Knight? And it's the first time they meet since he fought DuMorne.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2020, 05:37:58 AM »
Even if she did not saw him using it she probably saw the bracelet itself and she knows the purpose of it. She may have even sensed it.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2020, 05:58:09 AM »
As I said above, it would have been very strange that she sees the bracelet in Summer Knight but doesn't mention it. Sensed it how? Telepathy? I don't think Dresden's ability to sense magic has ever allowed him to sense magical paraphanalia. Why would she be able to?

It is far more likely to be either a hint that she saw it somewhere between Summer Knight and White Night, or a mistake on Jim's part.

Offline Darkest-Before-Dawn

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2020, 07:11:10 AM »
I think some people are reading a bit too much into this? I just dug out the quote and it seems she's just admiring another wizard's craftmanship:

'Complex' she replied 'Balanced, strong, sophisticated...it took real skill'

This to me simply reads 'Elaine sees new bracelet, recognises focus is quite complex, is probably impressed Harry (who is usually more of a brute force guy) made something quite so delicate.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2020, 09:39:10 AM »
As I said above, it would have been very strange that she sees the bracelet in Summer Knight but doesn't mention it. Sensed it how? Telepathy? I don't think Dresden's ability to sense magic has ever allowed him to sense magical paraphanalia. Why would she be able to?

It is far more likely to be either a hint that she saw it somewhere between Summer Knight and White Night, or a mistake on Jim's part.
He was wearing it so she probably saw it. They were careful with each other in summer knight and had little time for calm discussions but of course she studied it as soon as she saw it and she probably recognized it as not too different as what he had in the past. She also studied it the same way as she did in White Night but without telling him for obvious reasons, their relationship in summer knight was problematic. And she probably wanted an idea about how dangerous he had become.

What I read in it is that a subtle wizard can say something about someone else’s focus by looking at it and using her senses. It is not just a bracelet, Harry’s magic touched it and that tells.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2020, 12:53:11 PM »
She sees the old focus at the Mothers cottage when they take Harry's magical goodies away from him, prior to trying to drown him in mud.
Quote
I shook my head and looked around until I spotted my bag, jewelry, staff, and rod on the ground several yards away from the muddy bog Aurora had created. I recovered all of them. "No," I said. "It isn't over."
And he uses the new focus when he breaks into the apartment and finds Elaine.
Quote
A globe of green lightning sizzled over the apartment's threshold and abruptly expanded, buzzing arcs of verdant electricity interconnected in a diamond pattern like the weave of a fisherman's net.
The spell fell on my shield and the meeting of energies yielded a torrent of angry yellow sparks that rebounded from the shield, scattering over the hall, the doorway, and bouncing back into the apartment

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2020, 01:02:28 PM »
I think some people are reading a bit too much into this? I just dug out the quote and it seems she's just admiring another wizard's craftmanship:
'Complex' she replied 'Balanced, strong, sophisticated...it took real skill'
This to me simply reads 'Elaine sees new bracelet, recognises focus is quite complex, is probably impressed Harry (who is usually more of a brute force guy) made something quite so delicate.
By some people, you mean me. I am reading into it because I think it is a clue. You might read it and see nothing else. That's up to you. I am looking for more detail. On the surface you are correct. But as a buried clue... see where I am going? You have to read into things. Jim has done it consistently throughout the series. And don't think for a second that if it turns out the Elaine is Kumori that there won't have been hints. Or anyone else that we have met. There is a WOJ that we have enough information to work out her and Cowl's identity.

Arjan - But she makes no mention of the bracelet. Of course it is possible she didn't mention it. But it's a very glaring error in White Night. And Jim is both lazy and considered. He doesn't put some throw away small talk in a scene for no reason. It often comes back to bite.

And both of you forget that she isn't admiring the focus, what she specifically comments on is the quality of the shield itself, not the bracelet. She even says she isn't sure she could have made a focus for something that complex. Also, she doesn't see the bracelet in this scene. In fact, I am pretty sure she doesn't see it in any scene in White Night either. She only see's the shield. So your premise is wrong, Darkest-Before-Dawn.

Full quote:
Quote
She glanced up at me. "Like the new shield, by the way."
"Yeah. Sexy, huh?"
"Complex," she replied. "Balanced. Strong. Sophisticated. I'm not sure I could have made a focus for something like that. It took real skill, Harry."
I felt myself actually blush, absurdly pleased by the compliment. "Well, it isn't perfect. It takes a lot more juice than the old shield did.

Nothing about the actual design of the focus. Nothing about her even noticing it.

Even in Morris' example she doesn't actually see the new focus explicitly. Seeing an old focus and seeing an old shield are different things Morris. And as I stated above - she is commenting on the quality of the shield itself not the focus.

Offline Mira

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Re: Elaine
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2020, 02:37:52 PM »
Quote

Even in Morris' example she doesn't actually see the new focus explicitly. Seeing an old focus and seeing an old shield are different things Morris. And as I stated above - she is commenting on the quality of the shield itself not the focus.

 Another thing to take into consideration is just because Harry and Elaine were close as young teenagers, lovers, even, doesn't mean they know each other very well now.  Back when Elaine knew Harry, by his own admission while he was very strong, but his magic wasn't subtle, he put minimal effort into study, all KABOOM and no refinement.  That was still mostly true as of Summer Knight when he meets up with her again, however after those events a lot of things happen to Harry, from his hand injury to being responsible for Molly and her training, he actually begins to seriously study the magic he practices.   All of that is reflected in the shield bracelet he now wears when he meets Elaine again in White Night.  She notices it because the Harry she grew up with, while perhaps capable of making such a bracelet wouldn't have bothered to put the research in to do so.  So she says;
Quote
"Complex," she replied. "Balanced. Strong. Sophisticated. I'm not sure I could have made a focus for something like that. It took real skill, Harry."

That isn't the Harry she grew up with, so she is surprised and took notice.