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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on June 08, 2020, 03:54:00 AM
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During White Night, she says to Harry that she likes his new shield. Except the last time she would have seen that shield would have been when he was sixteen...so naturally it would be different. Unless she saw it more recently...in Dead Beat. She never sees it in Summer Knight.
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I'm not sure thats an accurate statement, I'd have to dig through the book. Ellaine was operating a lot behind the scenes and I seem to recall her disarming him at the end of the book when they were leaving him to die. Either under a veil or at that time I'd think she'd have seen it?
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It could be that Jim hadn't fleshed out Elaine's character well enough yet. The versions of the day
Harry cut class and returned home to Elaine and Justin also changed in the first few books.
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Since Summer Knight. That is when they met.
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Since Summer Knight. That is when they met.
However if I remember correctly before Summer Knight Harry had flashbacks that don't quite
match. Having said that, it might be seen as a PTSD matter for both of them. So Elaine may
simply have not noticed Harry's shield bracelet because she was still suffering from in her own way
not just Harry's final encounter with Justin, but her own as well.
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Lea says in Ghost Story -- and she's speaking the truth, because the Fae never explicitly lie -- that his memories in spirit-form are not burdened by the weaknesses of the flesh. What he remembered during those scenes were what he experienced at the time, un-altered by the meat and the hormones & etc.
Not necessarily "the truth" because the memories were formed under stress, in extreme emotional turmoil, and possibly in the face of illusions or mind-warping magic, etc etc etc. But not warped by the vagaries of time and the re-processing and "creative remembering" that everybody does over time.
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We know that Harry updates his shield after his hand gets burned with napalm at Mavra’s lair in BR. He uses the newer, upgraded shield in Changes to great effect in the duel against Ariana - his upgrades allow him to defend against steam as well.
Elaine hasn’t seen Harry since SK so she wouldn’t have noticed the upgrades he made after BR till their paths cross again in WK. Unless she’s Kumori, in which case she’s lying to mislead Harry & us the readers.
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I have a digital copy of Summer Knight and looking through it, there is no scene where Elaine is in (openly) that she would have seen him use a shield. Not a one.
Harry builds his new shield after Summer Knight, in Blood Rites. So if she had seen his old shield in Summer Knight her comment would make more sense. Except she didn't. The first time she sees his shield (as Elaine - openly) is in White Night. Which is 16 years later.
Now it is possible she is surprised after 16 years about how good Harry's new shield is. But she shouldn't be unless she expected him to not improve at all. Not only that, the last time she saw him before White Night she sees him in combat several times and ends up defeating a Sidhe lord and a Summer Queen (admittedly the least of them, but still). So she knows he has improved. He doesn't once use his shield infront of her in Summer Knight though. And I find it difficult to believe she would have seen his bracelet (which would mostly have been concealed by his duster or shirt) and not commented.
Which leaves the only other option: she has seen him use it in combat whilst remaining hidden. If she were his friend why would she do that? The answer of course is that she isn't really. Perhaps she has conflicting interests or orders. But a prime event that she could have seen his shield?
When he duels Cowl.
He uses his old shield and it wasn't very effective.
So, if someone has an event where she could have seen his shield in Summer Knight please point me in the direction. I already considered the hardware store scene and she actually was not in the place, she was creating a mindfog from afar.
Maz - She doesn't disarm him exactly. He gets clubbed over the head and he smells Elaine's perfume. The implication is that Korrick is the one that does it (as he is the Unicorn in disguise). He doesn't use the shield fighting the Unicorn before he meets the Mothers either.
Mira - Certainly possible it was just an oversight or mistake in White Night. But Jim's pretty tricksy...he lays clues down decades in advance. So I am not so sure it was a mistake.
Arjan - where does she see it in Summer Knight? And it's the first time they meet since he fought DuMorne.
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Even if she did not saw him using it she probably saw the bracelet itself and she knows the purpose of it. She may have even sensed it.
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As I said above, it would have been very strange that she sees the bracelet in Summer Knight but doesn't mention it. Sensed it how? Telepathy? I don't think Dresden's ability to sense magic has ever allowed him to sense magical paraphanalia. Why would she be able to?
It is far more likely to be either a hint that she saw it somewhere between Summer Knight and White Night, or a mistake on Jim's part.
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I think some people are reading a bit too much into this? I just dug out the quote and it seems she's just admiring another wizard's craftmanship:
'Complex' she replied 'Balanced, strong, sophisticated...it took real skill'
This to me simply reads 'Elaine sees new bracelet, recognises focus is quite complex, is probably impressed Harry (who is usually more of a brute force guy) made something quite so delicate.
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As I said above, it would have been very strange that she sees the bracelet in Summer Knight but doesn't mention it. Sensed it how? Telepathy? I don't think Dresden's ability to sense magic has ever allowed him to sense magical paraphanalia. Why would she be able to?
It is far more likely to be either a hint that she saw it somewhere between Summer Knight and White Night, or a mistake on Jim's part.
He was wearing it so she probably saw it. They were careful with each other in summer knight and had little time for calm discussions but of course she studied it as soon as she saw it and she probably recognized it as not too different as what he had in the past. She also studied it the same way as she did in White Night but without telling him for obvious reasons, their relationship in summer knight was problematic. And she probably wanted an idea about how dangerous he had become.
What I read in it is that a subtle wizard can say something about someone else’s focus by looking at it and using her senses. It is not just a bracelet, Harry’s magic touched it and that tells.
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She sees the old focus at the Mothers cottage when they take Harry's magical goodies away from him, prior to trying to drown him in mud.
I shook my head and looked around until I spotted my bag, jewelry, staff, and rod on the ground several yards away from the muddy bog Aurora had created. I recovered all of them. "No," I said. "It isn't over."
And he uses the new focus when he breaks into the apartment and finds Elaine.A globe of green lightning sizzled over the apartment's threshold and abruptly expanded, buzzing arcs of verdant electricity interconnected in a diamond pattern like the weave of a fisherman's net.
The spell fell on my shield and the meeting of energies yielded a torrent of angry yellow sparks that rebounded from the shield, scattering over the hall, the doorway, and bouncing back into the apartment
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I think some people are reading a bit too much into this? I just dug out the quote and it seems she's just admiring another wizard's craftmanship:
'Complex' she replied 'Balanced, strong, sophisticated...it took real skill'
This to me simply reads 'Elaine sees new bracelet, recognises focus is quite complex, is probably impressed Harry (who is usually more of a brute force guy) made something quite so delicate.
By some people, you mean me. I am reading into it because I think it is a clue. You might read it and see nothing else. That's up to you. I am looking for more detail. On the surface you are correct. But as a buried clue... see where I am going? You have to read into things. Jim has done it consistently throughout the series. And don't think for a second that if it turns out the Elaine is Kumori that there won't have been hints. Or anyone else that we have met. There is a WOJ that we have enough information to work out her and Cowl's identity.
Arjan - But she makes no mention of the bracelet. Of course it is possible she didn't mention it. But it's a very glaring error in White Night. And Jim is both lazy and considered. He doesn't put some throw away small talk in a scene for no reason. It often comes back to bite.
And both of you forget that she isn't admiring the focus, what she specifically comments on is the quality of the shield itself, not the bracelet. She even says she isn't sure she could have made a focus for something that complex. Also, she doesn't see the bracelet in this scene. In fact, I am pretty sure she doesn't see it in any scene in White Night either. She only see's the shield. So your premise is wrong, Darkest-Before-Dawn.
Full quote:
She glanced up at me. "Like the new shield, by the way."
"Yeah. Sexy, huh?"
"Complex," she replied. "Balanced. Strong. Sophisticated. I'm not sure I could have made a focus for something like that. It took real skill, Harry."
I felt myself actually blush, absurdly pleased by the compliment. "Well, it isn't perfect. It takes a lot more juice than the old shield did.
Nothing about the actual design of the focus. Nothing about her even noticing it.
Even in Morris' example she doesn't actually see the new focus explicitly. Seeing an old focus and seeing an old shield are different things Morris. And as I stated above - she is commenting on the quality of the shield itself not the focus.
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Even in Morris' example she doesn't actually see the new focus explicitly. Seeing an old focus and seeing an old shield are different things Morris. And as I stated above - she is commenting on the quality of the shield itself not the focus.
Another thing to take into consideration is just because Harry and Elaine were close as young teenagers, lovers, even, doesn't mean they know each other very well now. Back when Elaine knew Harry, by his own admission while he was very strong, but his magic wasn't subtle, he put minimal effort into study, all KABOOM and no refinement. That was still mostly true as of Summer Knight when he meets up with her again, however after those events a lot of things happen to Harry, from his hand injury to being responsible for Molly and her training, he actually begins to seriously study the magic he practices. All of that is reflected in the shield bracelet he now wears when he meets Elaine again in White Night. She notices it because the Harry she grew up with, while perhaps capable of making such a bracelet wouldn't have bothered to put the research in to do so. So she says;
"Complex," she replied. "Balanced. Strong. Sophisticated. I'm not sure I could have made a focus for something like that. It took real skill, Harry."
That isn't the Harry she grew up with, so she is surprised and took notice.
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You could assume that the design of a focus would be something recognizable as what it is. So if she saw the previous focus she would know, as a wizard, if the new focus was better or worse than the previous focus by looking at the construction. Kinda like looking at a Model T versus a Tesla. However it's your theory, run with it.
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You could assume that the design of a focus would be something recognizable as what it is. So if she saw the previous focus she would know, as a wizard, if the new focus was better or worse than the previous focus by looking at the construction. Kinda like looking at a Model T versus a Tesla. However it's your theory, run with it.
Apparently it was recognizable to Elaine.
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Where does she see the bracelet? She is commenting on the skill of his new SHIELD. Not the FOCUS. Can't be any clearer.
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My thoughts:
1. Elaine and Harry have the same base education in magic.
2. They can likely guess what a focus made by the other will be used for if they see what it's made out of and markings on it.
3. Elaine saw Harry's previous shield bracelet.
4. Elaine comments on the difficulty of making Harry's improved shield bracelet. ("I'm not sure I could have made a focus for something like that. It took real skill.")
5. Elaine was in the charge that Harry took down with his shield in Summer Knight. Chapter 32 is where the cavalry charge happens. Harry raises a shield against the horses, but not the riders. After the fight with Slate and Talos "only one warrior was still mounted, another slender Sidhe in green armor and a masked helm." In the second paragraph of Chapter 33, "the warrior in green armor" is revealed to be Elaine. Elaine saw Harry's shield and his shield bracelet in Summer Knight.
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Elaine & Kumori, the same person? What is this theory based on?
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Elaine & Kumori, the same person? What is this theory based on?
Mostly WOJ that Kumori's identity would hurt Harry, which narrows it down quite a bit. There aren't that many women wizards Harry is personally acquainted with enough for joining the other side to hurt him. We know she's not Luccio or Warden Yoshimo, because they were wounded and out of action during the conclusion of DB. Some have speculated Faith Astor or Jenny Sells grew up to manifest wizard-level talent and he'd be guilty for not finding them before Cowl, but if Kumori was the other figure on stage with Cowl at Bianca's party in GP, the timeline for Cowl to have recruited either and have her training far enough along to bring her to field events. Barring any major longshots like time-travelling (either) Maggie or heretofore unknown sister of Kim Delaney, Elaine is the head-and-shoulders standout.
I don't think it works for her to be freely willing Kumori, because Elaine is pretty clearly counter to Cowl's purposes in WN. But it's possible Justin's mental interference caused a split personality that's only able to take control part of the time.
A few other things, like Elaine would have been in the same position of being able to guess how Simon's wards would have worked from being trained by his apprentice Justin that the Council thought Harry was (though if Simon is Cowl, that's not needed). And from the Morgan microfiction, the idea that Justin was preparing a "Destroyer" could have been his other apprentice.
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... I don't think it works for her to be freely willing Kumori, because Elaine is pretty clearly counter to Cowl's purposes in WN ...
And it's also possible that there was some "long game" planning going on, that Elaine's "purpose" (and Cowl's) was entirely other than what it seemed to Harry. Elaine could have been running a scam on Harry, even then.
Note that the outcome of Harry interacting with the White Court is that the White's ruler no longer has that infamous immunity-to-magic! This could be EXACTLY the outcome desired by Cowl, and achieved largely via KumorElaine... If Kumori is indeed Elaine, of course.
I'm still awfully fond of the WAG that Cowl&Kumori are time-travelling Harry&Molly. :-)
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Cowl is most likely an outsider puppet. He was involved in infecting Lea and he supported the red court. White night was an effort to bring back the white court to an alliance with the red or if that failed to cripple it.
In dead beat Cowl tried to get enough power to kill the senior council, he failed. I think Cowl and Kumori escaped and Kumori simply decided to change her direction and to continue on her own. Maybe Cowl blamed her for something or she became less afraid of him. Or Cowl became more unstable and she fled.
Or Harry’s heroic example inspired her to change her life. :)
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And it's also possible that there was some "long game" planning going on, that Elaine's "purpose" (and Cowl's) was entirely other than what it seemed to Harry. Elaine could have been running a scam on Harry, even then.
Note that the outcome of Harry interacting with the White Court is that the White's ruler no longer has that infamous immunity-to-magic! This could be EXACTLY the outcome desired by Cowl, and achieved largely via KumorElaine... If Kumori is indeed Elaine, of course.
Wait, what? Lord Raith's protection was (probably) sponsored by a big-time Outsider. I haven't seen any indication that he lost it just because Harry managed to keep his mother's curse blocking him from feeding intact. Or do you mean that Cowl sees Lara as a less problematic ruler than Lord Raith? I doubt that since Lord Raith and Cowl both seem friendly to Outsiders, whereas Lara is in it for Lara.
If there was anything in WN that was looks like a success at first but might actually be a scheme, I think the creation of the Paranet is more likely. Elaine knows a whole bunch of lesser talents and could potentially betray them to the Fomor.
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Mostly WOJ that Kumori's identity would hurt Harry, which narrows it down quite a bit. There aren't that many women wizards Harry is personally acquainted with enough for joining the other side to hurt him. We know she's not Luccio or Warden Yoshimo, because they were wounded and out of action during the conclusion of DB.....
Wow...ok. I'd have to re-read with that in mind and ponder a bit.
I suppose that of Kumori's identity would hurt Harry, it's possible she could be another half sibling.
If it's Elaine then that's a real bummer. Their relationship has been mined plenty in the emotionally devastating department. To pile on and make it worse seems like beating a dead horse.
It's an interesting theory. Not quite sold on it but interesting nonetheless. Thanks for the info!
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Wait, what? Lord Raith's protection was (probably) sponsored by a big-time Outsider. I haven't seen any indication that he lost it just because Harry managed to keep his mother's curse blocking him from feeding intact. Or do you mean that Cowl sees Lara as a less problematic ruler than Lord Raith? I doubt that since Lord Raith and Cowl both seem friendly to Outsiders, whereas Lara is in it for Lara ...
So far as I know, Papa Raith still has his immunity. He just no longer has rulership.
Remember the Eb-vs-Lara scene on Demonreach? Yeah, like that... Cowl can take Lara whenever he wants.
Therefore, Cowl can now take the ruler of the White Court whenever he wants.
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So far as I know, Papa Raith still has his immunity. He just no longer has rulership.
Remember the Eb-vs-Lara scene on Demonreach? Yeah, like that... Cowl can take Lara whenever he wants.
Therefore, Cowl can now take the ruler of the White Court whenever he wants.
Lara became the de facto ruler of the in BR, not WN, so it's unlikely that the motivation behind WN was to unseat Lord Raith in favor of Lara.
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Lara became the de facto ruler of the in BR, not WN, so it's unlikely that the motivation behind WN was to unseat Lord Raith in favor of Lara.
Agreed. Vitto was supposed to come out ahead, either by virtue of Malvora deposing Raith and his aunt being a figurehead, or killing everyone and being the last WC noble left standing at all.
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Well, in Dead Beat (pb, P.185) when Kumori brings back Marcone's man .. ice forms on the sidewalk. So I was thinking she may be Winter Lady Molly - or does Elaine take over that role too?
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More likely an effect of her magic sucking in all the ambient energy. I imagine it takes a fair bit of energy to bring back someone fully. Still though, interesting thought.
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hmmm.. OK IIRC Harry HAD made ice before his knighthood by drawing energy out of water. Think he made an ice bridge once and a slippery spot for a fetch to fall on
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Necromancy is also associated with cold as most clearly shown in the beginning of Dead Beat when Bob called back his memories from his Kemper period and introduces Harry to necromancy. Made him a necromancy maybe.
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hmmm.. OK IIRC Harry HAD made ice before his knighthood by drawing energy out of water. Think he made an ice bridge once and a slippery spot for a fetch to fall on
He did indeed, in White Night he did it to Lake Michigan.
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Most (IIRC, all) of Harry's pre-Winter icecapades, however, were explicitly physics-based hot/cold thermal stuff.
He wanted ice, had no ice spell... so he Fuego'ed, and drew the heat for the fire specifically from the area he wanted to ice. The ice was just the side-effect of the Fuego.
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Most (IIRC, all) of Harry's pre-Winter icecapades, however, were explicitly physics-based hot/cold thermal stuff.
He wanted ice, had no ice spell... so he Fuego'ed, and drew the heat for the fire specifically from the area he wanted to ice. The ice was just the side-effect of the Fuego.
That is also true, now however he has both fire and ice.. If I remember correctly though I cannot place the short story it came from he also has "earth." He pulled power from the earth itself, I think he said it was one of the most dangerous and hard to control.
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That is also true, now however he has both fire and ice.. If I remember correctly though I cannot place the short story it came from he also has "earth." He pulled power from the earth itself, I think he said it was one of the most dangerous and hard to control.
Harry's command of earth has been really on again/off again. In one of the earlier books, his sword cane was enchanted to help with earth magic, and I thought there was a quote that it was one of his stronger suites. But then he proceeded to not use it much after that. We have three examples - the ferromancy in the wraith deeps that pulled a wall of magma from the ground to hold back the ghouls, a minor case of the magnify/localize gravity used in the short story "it's my birthday" to kill a new black court vampire, and then a major use of the gravity spell at Chicken pizza where he also tapped a lay line and used it to crush a small army of crazy red court vamps. Meanwhile, he uses fire, air, and force almost every book, and now uses ice liberally as well. I don't think we've ever seen him use water, have we?
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Harry's command of earth has been really on again/off again. In one of the earlier books, his sword cane was enchanted to help with earth magic, and I thought there was a quote that it was one of his stronger suites. But then he proceeded to not use it much after that. We have three examples - the ferromancy in the wraith deeps that pulled a wall of magma from the ground to hold back the ghouls, a minor case of the magnify/localize gravity used in the short story "it's my birthday" to kill a new black court vampire, and then a major use of the gravity spell at Chicken pizza where he also tapped a lay line and used it to crush a small army of crazy red court vamps. Meanwhile, he uses fire, air, and force almost every book, and now uses ice liberally as well. I don't think we've ever seen him use water, have we?
I think ley-line magic -- whatever the spell that gets cast with ley-power -- always has an earth-magic component.
I don't think we've seen Harry use water spells, though. Harry believes running water disperses magic; and so it does, for him. Ramirez has strong aquamancy, I think, and he may not be as limited as Harry, in this regard. Did we see Harry summon up water spirits? Maybe when searching for Maggie? Or in flashback of searching for Elaine (in the post-Justin timeframe)?
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Harry's command of earth has been really on again/off again. In one of the earlier books, his sword cane was enchanted to help with earth magic, and I thought there was a quote that it was one of his stronger suites. But then he proceeded to not use it much after that. We have three examples - the ferromancy in the wraith deeps that pulled a wall of magma from the ground to hold back the ghouls, a minor case of the magnify/localize gravity used in the short story "it's my birthday" to kill a new black court vampire, and then a major use of the gravity spell at Chicken pizza where he also tapped a lay line and used it to crush a small army of crazy red court vamps. Meanwhile, he uses fire, air, and force almost every book, and now uses ice liberally as well. I don't think we've ever seen him use water, have we?
I think it depends on what the ice is made of. Ice can be water, it can be methane or several other elements. So Harry's ice magic can also be water magic.
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Water damps magic, it's the reason why Demonreach is built in the lake. Given that mechanic I doubt that Harry will be throwing fire hose streams of water. Neither does he directly manipulate matter in most cases. I assumed earth magic to be a method of tapping the energy in the tectonic plates. And I believe that is Eb's specialty.
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I think ley-line magic -- whatever the spell that gets cast with ley-power -- always has an earth-magic component.
I don't think we've seen Harry use water spells, though. Harry believes running water disperses magic; and so it does, for him. Ramirez has strong aquamancy, I think, and he may not be as limited as Harry, in this regard. Did we see Harry summon up water spirits? Maybe when searching for Maggie? Or in flashback of searching for Elaine (in the post-Justin timeframe)?
He might have used water magic once --- when he was battling Demonreach with the elements
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He might have used water magic once --- when he was battling Demonreach with the elements
I haven't checked, but I think you're right, since I think he hit the four elements as part of that challenge.
We know from what Jim has said that Carlos's entropic shield is water magic, that shape changing is water magic, and that most healing is water magic. We also know that water dissipates magic, unless you know what you are doing like the Fomor, so there are work arounds to the magic dissipating effects of water - I expect that water magic works just fine around water....
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I haven't checked, but I think you're right, since I think he hit the four elements as part of that challenge.
We know from what Jim has said that Carlos's entropic shield is water magic, that shape changing is water magic, and that most healing is water magic. We also know that water dissipates magic, unless you know what you are doing like the Fomor, so there are work arounds to the magic dissipating effects of water - I expect that water magic works just fine around water....
Water Magic does almost all the cool things, because Harry doesn't do it.
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He might have used water magic once --- when he was battling Demonreach with the elements
He did, but iirc he pulled water from the ground rather than create it from nothing by magic.
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I think it is RUNNING water that grounds magic - Carlos uses a shield, but isn't it static?
As far as healing, don't they always say you take the water from the body, we are something like 7 pounds of salts? Blood is mostly water, yet blood magic is strong. And The Gatekeeper cast standing on the dock of Demonreach just fine
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I think it is RUNNING water that grounds magic - Carlos uses a shield, but isn't it static?
As far as healing, don't they always say you take the water from the body, we are something like 7 pounds of salts? Blood is mostly water, yet blood magic is strong. And The Gatekeeper cast standing on the dock of Demonreach just fine
I think you are right, it is running water that dampens magic, because back in White Night when Harry turned the lake water to ice, he was in a boat.