Author Topic: New Wag  (Read 993 times)

Offline morriswalters

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2020, 07:20:15 PM »
Really?

Geez.  Today's my day for learning about all sorts of WoJ's I don't recall...   :o   :'(

Dunno if that makes me one of the lucky 10,000

or just getting senile.

No, it's what makes WOJ's so aggravating.  There is no definitive searchable resource.

Exactly when and where did Malcolm get soul gazed by Eb?  Graveside?
and marking when the stars were aligned exactly for the conception of a star child to be possible.
I don't know that the stars had anything to do with it.
We don't even know he died in his sleep. Harry believes that, but he was six. I doubt anyone would tell him the unvarnished truth if it was something awful.
Quote from: Storm Front
He died in his sleep one night. An aneurism, the doctors said. I found him, cold, smiling.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2020, 08:34:32 PM »
Yeah, he died when Harry was asleep. And six. Who's say he wasn't awake when he died? Six year old Harry.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2020, 09:15:22 PM »
Harry doesn't describe a scene of violence and and dying in his sleep is a reasonable inference for a six year old.  Maybe Jim will enlighten the point one day.

Offline Mira

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2020, 09:20:48 PM »
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Exactly when and where did Malcolm get soul gazed by Eb?  Graveside?

So you think that Eb never met Malcolm?  In Blood Rites

Eb tells Harry  page 299 paperback

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"She met your father.  A man.  A mortal, without power, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I've ever seen,I believe she fell in love with him.

So evidently Eb did meet Malcolm, and since he talks about what Malcolm's soul looks like compared to others he has seen.. That sounds like a soul gaze to me, which makes sense that Eb might want to know why his daughter is so interested in this seemingly ordinary guy.

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I don't know that the stars had anything to do with it.

Metaphorically speaking, but astrological as well, as Lash tells Harry page 363 White Night hardback
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"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
 

If Lash knew what they were, apparently Margaret did as well.  After she met Malcolm, no doubt she felt he was exactly the guy to father such a child.  I am willing also to bet she payed close attention to her cycle, knew when she would be the most fertile.  With help from the Winter Court, and who knows, Listens to Wind, she could tweak her moment of conception... Heck since it appears that Malcolm cooperated in this, Harry could have been conceived in a test tube to make sure the timing was just right.   
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He died in his sleep one night. An aneurism, the doctors said. I found him, cold, smiling.

I know, however that still doesn't mean it was easy to set things up to kill him does it?

Offline morriswalters

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2020, 10:41:07 PM »
@Mira
I have no idea what Eb did or didn't do.  I know the text.  But it means nothing without the underlying context.

Offline Mira

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2020, 04:05:41 AM »
@Mira
I have no idea what Eb did or didn't do.  I know the text.  But it means nothing without the underlying context.

  Read the chapter in Blood Rites where  Harry demands answers from Eb for your context.  Eb says of Malcolm's soul," like few I've ever seen."   You think he is lying?  You say you know the text, then you have read the chapter..  If you have read the series, then you know a little about how a soul gaze works.  Eb is either lying to Harry or at some point he soul gazed Malcolm to form the opinion that he his soul was good, like few he'd ever seen..  Note, Eb doesn't say that Malcolm was one of the best men he has ever seen, or that he was a good man, no, he says ,"But a man with a good soul, like few I've ever seen"

Offline morriswalters

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2020, 03:25:13 PM »
Cram as much meaning as you wish in those two sentences.  They do not say that he soul gazed Malcolm.  They can be read multiple ways.  Your interpretation is only one.  It may be the right one, but WAG's are built on the other interpretations.  :)

Soul gazes are presented as something more intimate than sex.  I would need to have a premise that justified Malcolm letting a stranger impose that intimacy upon him.

Offline Mira

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2020, 05:25:55 PM »
Cram as much meaning as you wish in those two sentences.  They do not say that he soul gazed Malcolm.  They can be read multiple ways.  Your interpretation is only one.  It may be the right one, but WAG's are built on the other interpretations.  :)

Soul gazes are presented as something more intimate than sex.  I would need to have a premise that justified Malcolm letting a stranger impose that intimacy upon him.

Eb wouldn't have been a stranger, this was the father of the woman Malcolm loved.  Not some stranger that came in from the street getting randomly soul gazed.  This is a man his daughter loved, who apparently left Lord Raith for and all the risks that entails, it is only natural he'd want to know just who this guy is. And what is the best way for that?  Drum roll please, the soul gaze.  There is as much justification for my wag as yours...
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Eb met Malcolm at that same meeting.  The meeting was about producing a child as a Starborn.  Malcolm is a scion of an angel.  Eb objects but Margaret says to hell with it since she is under the influence  of Raith and has the baby anyway and falls for Malcolm releasing her from Raith's control.  True love.  Possibly Malcolm was himself controlled by Raith. 
Where exactly is your justification from the text for that again?  Where is it written that Malcolm was even at this meeting?   Or that Malcolm is the scion of an angel?  Eb says Malcolm was just an ordinary vanilla human, nothing special about save his goodness.  Or where is your text evidence even remote evidence that Malcolm was possibly controlled by Raith?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 05:35:32 PM by Mira »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2020, 06:54:28 PM »
Your interpretation is only one.  It may be the right one, but WAG's are built on the other interpretations.  :)
Eb had a meeting with the cast, Raith, the Reds, Margaret. And who knows who else was there.
Margaret was enthralled by Papa Raith.
Eb reacted to whatever idea that was floated, to the point of what can only be referred to as a bitter family fight.
Margaret broke away from Papa Raith.

Now for some inference.
Why write about this argument if it doesn't serve the plot? Jim says he is a lazy writer.
What mechanism allowed Margaret to break away?
The text specifically says that Margaret was running from Eb who had orders to kill her.

She ran for two years, but had to meet Malcolm, fall in love, get married and get pregnant in a span of fifteen months.  All while hiding from all her enemies. 

One can assume that Raith took something of hers that he could use as a target for the curse. Inferred by the fact that he killed her. So he was either waiting for the child or she was able to hide from him in some manner.

If Eb soul gazed Malcolm then Malcolm saw into Eb's soul as well.  Since Malcolm chose not to tell Harry about about Eb, what does that tell us? 

We can assume that Margaret told Malcolm who Eb was.  She also would have told him about the people who were chasing her and why.  She chose Lea as Harry's protector rather than Eb.

Offline g33k

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2020, 10:55:08 PM »
Eb had a meeting with the cast, Raith, the Reds, Margaret. And who knows who else was there ...

We only know Duchess Arianna was there (not any other Ramps).  But when we actually meet her, she's in a faction looking to unseat the Red King.

I doubt "the Reds" (as a cohesive group) were at that meeting!


... The text specifically says that Margaret was running from Eb who had orders to kill her ...

Cite?  The only quote that I recall was Eb saying he "had his own orders" regarding her.

I found that quote notable for (a) implying Eb's orders were perhaps not identical to the orders the Wardens had regarding her, and (b) not actually stating that he planned to obey said orders.
 

... One can assume that Raith took something of hers that he could use as a target for the curse. Inferred by the fact that he killed her. So he was either waiting for the child or she was able to hide from him in some manner.

Quite a few other inferences possible.  Maybe he thought he could recapture her.  Maybe he took advantage of her being in labor to insert a Whamp-Whammied agent into her medical team.  Etc.

... If Eb soul gazed Malcolm then Malcolm saw into Eb's soul as well.  Since Malcolm chose not to tell Harry about about Eb, what does that tell us? 

We can assume that Margaret told Malcolm who Eb was.  She also would have told him about the people who were chasing her and why.  She chose Lea as Harry's protector rather than Eb.

Hmmm.  This is an interesting point!  But actually:  she chose Malcom over either of them.

Still, she clearly also laid plans for when/if Malcom was out of the picture.  Lea certainly knew where Harry was.  Morgan didn't know (per the Journal microfiction).  We actually have no info as to whether Eb knew, or not... no in-universe canon, no WoJ (that I know of).  I'm a bit dubious as to whether she had the whole bit with the orphanage pre-arranged... it seems improbable, honestly!

I think she got Lea in addition to Eb:  she figured Eb would do what he could for his grandson, but having Lea too could only be for the better.

Also, I think she was trying to set up for Harry to be raised outside the White Council; I suspect she suspected her son wouldn't survive if he were raised as an insider.

As to why Malcom chose to keep hiding, and didn't tell Harry about Eb -- I might suspect that Margaret's death appeared to him more as "wizard" action than Whamp.  So Malcom was suspicious about the White Council, and didn't want to expose his son.  Six years old is just too young to begin explaining how your grandpa may have murdered your mommy... or just didn't keep the secret well enough and his friends murdered your mommy...
 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 10:58:03 PM by g33k »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2020, 01:01:12 AM »
@g33k
Yeah, I can never remember her name.

I have only my imagination.  Although I'm pretty sure it wasn't to bring her in for a fair trial.  More like if there is no body there needn't be a trial.  I'm open to suggestions.

There are many WAG's available, I've chosen this one.
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Hmmm.  This is an interesting point!  But actually:  she chose Malcom over either of them.

Still, she clearly also laid plans for when/if Malcom was out of the picture.  Lea certainly knew where Harry was.  Morgan didn't know (per the Journal microfiction).  We actually have no info as to whether Eb knew, or not... no in-universe canon, no WoJ (that I know of).  I'm a bit dubious as to whether she had the whole bit with the orphanage pre-arranged... it seems improbable, honestly!
If she chose Malcolm she chose poorly.  Her choice of Morgan was only marginally better.  Also, any ideas of who the we is in the Morgan microfiction.
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From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.
However in terms of motivation I'm undercutting Mira's statement that Eb soul gazed Malcolm, while emphasizing my WAG. Typical of debate on the internet.




Offline Bad Alias

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2020, 01:15:27 AM »
But actually:  she chose Malcom over either of them.
She chose Malcolm to raise him. She chose Lea to see to his spiritual direction and protect him. She chose Morgan to protect him. Beyond that, we really don't know, and the first sentence is a guess.

I'm not sure how much or how little Malcolm knew about anything supernatural.

Offline Mira

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2020, 02:05:07 AM »
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As to why Malcom chose to keep hiding, and didn't tell Harry about Eb -- I might suspect that Margaret's death appeared to him more as "wizard" action than Whamp.  So Malcom was suspicious about the White Council, and didn't want to expose his son.  Six years old is just too young to begin explaining how your grandpa may have murdered your mommy... or just didn't keep the secret well enough and his friends murdered your mommy...

Ever try to explain anything to a six year old?  Especially supernatural politics.  It also follows if Malcolm was just an ordinary good man as Eb described him, he'd have known two things once Margaret was murdered, 1] he was in way over his head,  had been from the moment he agreed to father a star child, if he even understood what that was exactly. 2] Someone wanted his son very badly and the best way to keep him safe is to stay on the road and trust no one... He was wrong about the last.

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If she chose Malcolm she chose poorly.  Her choice of Morgan was only marginally better.  Also, any ideas of who the we is in the Morgan microfiction.
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It depends on what you value and what qualities you think are needed.  What is most often said about Malcolm?  A good soul, a man with a good heart.. What is often said about Harry and quite often carries him through and makes him so valued by his friends?  His good heart, which he is repeatedly told he inherited from his father. 
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  From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis

No, but then Morgan and whoever didn't know Malcolm, nor know his soul..  Harry is his son, inheriting both his good heart and more than likely his stubborn will.. Nemesis would never be successful in molding a child like that.. This Margaret knew, that is why with Malcolm she conceived a star child.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2020, 04:41:24 AM »
Who was the we?

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: New Wag
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2020, 05:19:59 AM »
I think the we from the mircofiction may have been him and Luccio.