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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on May 27, 2020, 02:45:06 AM
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Very tenuously supported. Two points. First Eb had met Malcolm, says he was gentle. And he attended a meeting with Margaret discussing a plan. Margaret breaks with Raith and bails, two years or so she has Harry and dies. Eb never says where he saw Malcolm and it's never revealed how Margaret broke away.
Eb met Malcolm at that same meeting. The meeting was about producing a child as a Starborn. Malcolm is a scion of an angel. Eb objects but Margaret says to hell with it since she is under the influence of Raith and has the baby anyway and falls for Malcolm releasing her from Raith's control. True love. Possibly Malcolm was himself controlled by Raith.
Pregnant and having to scoot, she leaves Thomas but not before connecting Thomas and an unborn Harry so that when she throws her death curse it can be powered by them instead of her life force. She goes into deep Winter under Lea's protection and loses a year while Harry comes to term. And leaves Winter via a portal in the Lincoln Monument. She gets the protection for Harry by telling Lea who has the Atheme. Lea sells out Malcolm to the Whites when Harry is six. And just to make it a real pot boiler, Lara does the deed and leaves Malcolm smiling. :o
It reads like a cheesy potboiler and I don't know if it is reasonable or not. But it connects the dots without tearing the fabric too badly. Feel free to rip it a new one. 48 days to Peace Talks
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I've always thought she met Malcolm on the minor talent circuit. A precusorser to the Paranet we know malcolm was an amateur magician stands to reason he'd be interested by actual magic.
I do think Malcolm is on the side of the angels he only appears to harry after Lasciel acts and reavhes out to influence harry.
He as much says so.
"So." I said "Why heaven I dreamed about you before"
"Because I wasn't allowed to contact you before" my father said easily "not until others had crossed the line"
Thats basically Urirls calling card only reacting in response. Clearly meaning lasciels shadow in response harry gets some light by a campfire with hia father.
The fact that we find Murphys Dad in the Chicago in Between Purgatory squad is an even bigger hint. Captain Murphy insists on no messages from beyond the grave to his daughter. Presumably malcolm has similar rules he has to follow.
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Very tenuously supported. Two points. First Eb had met Malcolm, says he was gentle. And he attended a meeting with Margaret discussing a plan. Margaret breaks with Raith and bails, two years or so she has Harry and dies. Eb never says where he saw Malcolm and it's never revealed how Margaret broke away.
Slight correction, I have a hunch that Eb had soul gazed Malcolm. Because he doesn't say that he was gentle, he says of him, "But a man with a good soullike few I've ever seen."
Pregnant and having to scoot, she leaves Thomas but not before connecting Thomas and an unborn Harry so that when she throws her death curse it can be powered by them instead of her life force. She goes into deep Winter under Lea's protection and loses a year while Harry comes to term. And leaves Winter via a portal in the Lincoln Monument. She gets the protection for Harry by telling Lea who has the Atheme. Lea sells out Malcolm to the Whites when Harry is six. And just to make it a real pot boiler, Lara does the deed and leaves Malcolm smiling.
I seem to remember a passage, but I cannot remember the book, where Harry talks about the one photo or one of the few photos he has of him mom, maybe his mom and dad together, and she is happy and very pregnant. If I didn't dream that, I don't think things went down as you theorize.
The fact that we find Murphys Dad in the Chicago in Between Purgatory squad is an even bigger hint. Captain Murphy insists on no messages from beyond the grave to his daughter. Presumably malcolm has similar rules he has to follow.
But that might be just a personal thing with Captain Murphy and not a general rule.
"So." I said "Why heaven I dreamed about you before"
"Because I wasn't allowed to contact you before" my father said easily "not until others had crossed the line"
It is possible that because Harry is a starborn, he isn't allowed to be overly influenced until he
figures some things out for himself. Malcolm clearly knows what he is because in the same passage he hints that what he and his mother did in conceiving him was unfair, Margaret hints at the same thing.
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I have never read about a photograph, from the timeline.
26 BSF, some time between August and October – Malcolm Dresden and his heavily-pregnant wife Margaret visit the Lincoln Memorial.
Eb may have soul gazed him, but the question is, when?
Margaret is a busy little honey bee in her last days. She ditches Papa Raith, wires Thomas as a doomsday device, runs down a husband, gets pregnant, goes to DC, meets Morgan and has nine months of married bliss. All before dying in the delivery room. One presumes that she performed some kind of service either in the former here and now or prior to the events, with Lea. She's a little energizer bunny. A one hundred and seventy year old energizer bunny. I'm trying to connect all of those dots.
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I have never read about a photograph, from the timeline.Eb may have soul gazed him, but the question is, when?
Margaret is a busy little honey bee in her last days. She ditches Papa Raith, wires Thomas as a doomsday device, runs down a husband, gets pregnant, goes to DC, meets Morgan and has nine months of married bliss. All before dying in the delivery room. One presumes that she performed some kind of service either in the former here and now or prior to the events, with Lea. She's a little energizer bunny. A one hundred and seventy year old energizer bunny. I'm trying to connect all of those dots.
Since she was still able to conceive children, apparently 170 years for a wizard isn't that old in vanilla human terms, even if say she was the equivalent of 45 vanilla years. She also spent quite a bit of those years in the Nevernever, that time may have also affected the physical aging process.
Perhaps when Eb first met Malcolm, which is very plausible, after all here is this ordinary vanilla human, his daughter falls in love with him and is trying to change her ways. He'd want to know just who in the hell this person was, so yeah, first meeting, soul gaze. It is significant and good evidence that he says it is " as good a soul like few I've ever seen." He doesn't talk man, he talks soul and no doubt Eb has soul gazed and seen a lot of souls in his lifetime.
I have never read about a photograph, from the timeline.
I am thinking it was Changes after his apartment burned, that Harry talks about the photo. But he
talks about a photo of them in Washington D.C. and she is pregnant and happy.
Margaret is a busy little honey bee in her last days. She ditches Papa Raith, wires Thomas as a doomsday device, runs down a husband, gets pregnant, goes to DC, meets Morgan and has nine months of married bliss. All before dying in the delivery room. One presumes that she performed some kind of service either in the former here and now or prior to the events, with Lea. She's a little energizer bunny. A one hundred and seventy year old energizer bunny. I'm trying to connect all of those dots.
One doesn't "run down a husband," that implies something of convenience, cold and calculated. Eb in Blood Rites is very clear on that, she fell in love with a vanilla mortal of no consequences except
he had a very good soul, that influence changed her. I'm thinking the changes were significant before she ran into Morgan, and that is why he spared her in the first place.
Here is the order I think things happened..
1] Margaret meets Malcolm, where or why, unknown, she instantly falls in love with him. Now
was that the result of an inadvertent soul gaze? Who knows, but meeting him changes her perception about humanity. She begins to think it might be worth saving after all. She becomes a better person for Malcolm, and he falls in love with her. This gives her the strength to leave Raith and her son, little Thomas. Why leave her baby? Perhaps she felt he was lost to the Hunger at some point, or if she took him Raith would never leave them alone.
2] She introduces him to her father, who also soul gazes him. Tells her what he sees, very much the same as what she sees, then she begins to form her plan. Somehow I doubt that she let Eb in on it, does Eb even know at this point that Harry is a star child?
3] She is happy with Malcolm which cements her plans, she is worried about Raith though, so she lets the Winter Court in on her plans, a bargain is struck and Lea is named the godmother of the child that Margaret will conceive. She gets pregnant, her and Malcolm visit D.C., there she meets Morgan, hell, he may be the one that took the photo, and asks him to also watch over the baby..
We know the rest.
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That's your WAG, I sit on mine. The age is a throw away other then to suggest that whatever Maggie had been doing all her life it must have been done somewhere where time ran slow while it ran fast in the mortal world. Margaret looked young and she captured Malcolm's heart. Or that Malcolm was a scion and he was as old as her.
What I'm seeking to do is to connect a lot of dots that Jim has laid out. There is the dinner with Eb and Margaret's friends, her escape, where Malcolm came into a picture, Harry's conception, the curse on Raith, The connection to Morgan, her death and finally Malcolm's death. And a silly image of Margaret with some type of curse ready to kill her frolicking at the Lincoln Monument while nine months pregnant.
Supply some specificity. What was the plan that Margaret was trying to sell Eb on? How did she break free? Where did she meet Malcolm. And why for God's name was she in DC?
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That's your WAG, I sit on mine. The age is a throw away other then to suggest that whatever Maggie had been doing all her life it must have been done somewhere where time ran slow while it ran fast in the mortal world. Margaret looked young and she captured Malcolm's heart. Or that Malcolm was a scion and he was as old as her.
I think that is partly true, but also consider that Harry at nearly forty is still considered a mere youth by many. I seem to remember that a wizard is considered in his or her prime at around 150 so yes,
I can see Margaret, if she hadn't suffered any injuries or illness looking a healthy young thirty something to Malcolm even if she was 170 give or take.
What I'm seeking to do is to connect a lot of dots that Jim has laid out. There is the dinner with Eb and Margaret's friends, her escape, where Malcolm came into a picture, Harry's conception, the curse on Raith, The connection to Morgan, her death and finally Malcolm's death. And a silly image of Margaret with some type of curse ready to kill her frolicking at the Lincoln Monument while nine months
From the sound of those dinners, or as described, it sounds like Lord Raith was also present at them. So hardly a time for planning. Also given Eb's information from Blood Rites, Malcolm came into the picture before she left Raith. Also according to Eb in Blood Rites the Wardens were ordered to arrest her on sight, to be almost instantly tried and executed. So the story told about Morgan, a dedicated
Warden if there ever was one is very odd indeed. His even asking questions first and not arresting later doesn't seem to fit at all, nor his promises to look after her baby. It could be that Morgan couldn't stomach a pregnant woman losing her head, though I know the micro story doesn't say anything about that. Or by the time Morgan caught up with her in D.C. she had changed so radically he decided to listen to what she had to say. In his journal though, Morgan doesn't say anything about when he talked to Margaret or if it was in D.C., only that he promised to protect her son.
Why was she in D.C.? Maybe because she was happy, in love, pregnant, and thought she was safe, and they were just out to have a good time. I don't think she was trying to sell Eb on any plan, where is that written?
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@Mira: The 'plan' they keep talking about is from 'Changes' IIRC. Arianna, Lord Raith, Margaret, and Eb were all at a dinner party that was hosted by Lord Raith. Margaret and Eb got into an argument and from there, Arianna realized that they were related b/c they fought like family. I don't think the books ever got more specific about what said plan was but I bet it had to do w/ running a con on the council, as a way to get them to change their laws. Eb disagreed and it might be that b/c of that, it fell through.
I don't really like the idea of Malcolm being anything other than a stage magician who is interested in 'actual' magic. But I do think that Margaret planned on having a starborn before she met Malcolm, only to fall in love w/ him once she realized what a kind person he was.
Maybe they went to DC to meet Morgan? They could have met under a flag of truce, and b/c she was pregnant, Morgan decided to hear her out. From there they worked out a deal. The photo could be the few times Margaret steps out of Winter to go do something. So maybe she wasn't quite living w/ Malcolm at the time or he lived w/ her?
@morriswalters: The only thing is, that if Malcolm and Margaret were in love, then Lara or any other WCV wouldn't be able to feed from him. Though Lara could use a catspaw to assassinate him, so the point still stands. I like this idea a lot.
Malcolm may be on the side of the angels after he met Margaret, b/c Uriel saw an opportunity to help bring Harry into existence. Lea putting a hit on Malcolm could be what supposedly makes her come into conflict w/ Harry down the line, per WOJ.
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The 'plan' they keep talking about is from 'Changes' IIRC. Arianna, Lord Raith, Margaret, and Eb were all at a dinner party that was hosted by Lord Raith. Margaret and Eb got into an argument and from there, Arianna realized that they were related b/c they fought like family. I don't think the books ever got more specific about what said plan was but I bet it had to do w/ running a con on the council, as a way to get them to change their laws. Eb disagreed and it might be that b/c of that, it fell through.
I think I may have misunderstood, because the plan I was thinking about was the plan to give birth to a star born.
don't really like the idea of Malcolm being anything other than a stage magician who is interested in 'actual' magic. But I do think that Margaret planned on having a starborn before she met Malcolm, only to fall in love w/ him once she realized what a kind person he was.
I doubt it because Margaret didn't begin to change until she met Malcolm and fell in love with him.
Maybe they went to DC to meet Morgan? They could have met under a flag of truce, and b/c she was pregnant, Morgan decided to hear her out. From there they worked out a deal. The photo could be the few times Margaret steps out of Winter to go do something. So maybe she wasn't quite living w/ Malcolm at the time or he lived w/ her?
Perhaps, though I believe that she was married to Malcolm and they lived lovingly together. However as a professional magician, even a mediocre one, he had to be on the road a lot to make a living for her and the child.
The only thing is, that if Malcolm and Margaret were in love, then Lara or any other WCV wouldn't be able to feed from him. Though Lara could use a catspaw to assassinate him, so the point still stands. I like this idea a lot.
No, but that doesn't leave out other ways of murdering someone.. Lord Raith didn't kill Margaret by feeding upon her.
Malcolm may be on the side of the angels after he met Margaret, b/c Uriel saw an opportunity to help bring Harry into existence. Lea putting a hit on Malcolm could be what supposedly makes her come into conflict w/ Harry down the line, per WOJ.
What is that WOJ exactly? Just because killing Malcolm and promising to protect Harry seem to contradict each other.
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... However as a professional magician, even a mediocre one, he had to be on the road a lot to make a living for her and the child ...
Not necessarily:
- Margaret could easily have grabbed a fair bit of cash and/or other resources, in departing from Papa's.
- As an experienced and powerful WC practitioner, she may well have had accounts she had set up in case she needed resources.
- Last but not least, the perennial "how do wizards earn money" thread(s) give us lots of options whereby Margaret could have easily earned plenty to live on.
But it's strongly implied that Malcom was pretty poor, as Harry was growing up. So all of Margaret's financial contributions -- if any -- were on an ad-hoc basis, rather than investments/accounts that could be used on an ongoing basis.
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Not necessarily:
- Margaret could easily have grabbed a fair bit of cash and/or other resources, in departing from Papa's.
- As an experienced and powerful WC practitioner, she may well have had accounts she had set up in case she needed resources.
- Last but not least, the perennial "how do wizards earn money" thread(s) give us lots of options whereby Margaret could have easily earned plenty to live on.
But it's strongly implied that Malcom was pretty poor, as Harry was growing up. So all of Margaret's financial contributions -- if any -- were on an ad-hoc basis, rather than investments/accounts that could be used on an ongoing basis.
Maybe, but she may have lost all her finances when she gave up her old life. Also I am willing to bet
that Malcolm is who Harry gets his old fashioned ideas about how to treat women from. Malcolm would want to be the bread winner.. Not only that, but it sounds like Margaret wasn't pardoned by the White Council, so she'd have to keep a pretty low profile.
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@Mira: I'm thinking that Margaret was starting to regret how her life turned out before she met Malcolm and wanted out but needed some type of plan for it. Then she met Malcolm and fell for him.
Yeah that 'plan' was never really elaborated on, but I could very well be wrong.
I think we're in agreement about the ways of killing Malcolm are many. :). (I shouldn't put a smile-y there, he dies after all, lol)
@g33k: Better show that thread to Harry, lol.
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@Mira: I'm thinking that Margaret was starting to regret how her life turned out before she met Malcolm and wanted out but needed some type of plan for it. Then she met Malcolm and fell for him.
Yeah that 'plan' was never really elaborated on, but I could very well be wrong.
I think we're in agreement about the ways of killing Malcolm are many. :). (I shouldn't put a smile-y there, he dies after all, lol)
@g33k: Better show that thread to Harry, lol.
However there is no evidence that Margaret regretted her life before she met Malcolm. But you could be right, the way it is written in Blood Rites is a bit ambitious. Eb says she turned away from her old life, Justin etc, was on the run for a couple of years, Wardens had orders to arrest her on sight for immediate trial and execution, Eb also had orders but he never said what they were.. Harry asks what happened? Eb simply answers that she met Malcolm and what a good soul he had.
However it isn't clear why she began to run, did she truly begin to regret? Or was the heat getting too great and she had to get out of the kitchen? Did meeting Malcolm begin her transformation or merely finish a job well on it's way?
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The only thing is, that if Malcolm and Margaret were in love, then Lara or any other WCV wouldn't be able to feed from him. Though Lara could use a catspaw to assassinate him, so the point still stands. I like this idea a lot.
My idea is that the act of love breaks the hold Raith had on her.
The meeting mentioned in Changes was to sell an idea(in my WAG), creating a Starborn. Here's the relevant text.They had some scheme they wanted my support on. The vampires thought I was just Maggie’s mentor, then.” He sighed. “I wanted nothing to do with it. Said she shouldn’t want it, either. And we fought.”
A reaction you might expect if the object of the exercise was to be his grandson.
The backstory has pretty consistently been that Harry is dangerous on an existential level. The Council fears him, and had Morgan dog him and the Black Staff prepared to kill him. The whole point of Proven Guilty is to kill Harry and only the intervention of Mab and Uriel prevent it. He's watched constantly. The very act of Harry discovering the name of the Adversary changes the path to the future.
So my WAG sees Margaret, under the control of Raith, attempt to create a weapon. Jim teases it's name, Destroyer. The timing of Margaret's introduction is up in the air. Here's the text."She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
I stared at him in pained fascination. "What happened?"
"She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen. I believe that she fell in love with him. But on the night you were born, one of her former allies found her and exacted his vengeance for her desertion." He looked up at me directly and said, "He used an entropy curse. A ritual entropy curse."
The text is neutral to the timing of the meeting, but when describing the time from the period when she ran, Eb says that she ran from him for those two years(approximate). So Eb would have had to see him before she ran or after she was dead. For the WAG I choose before.
You can argue any number of things but my next quote is at the core of my WAG.She touched my face again and said, "I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone. I hope that one day you will forgive me my mistake. But know that I am proud of what you have become. I love you, child."
Whatever was done to Harry she felt guilt over it.
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Whatever was done to Harry she felt guilt over it.
That one isn't hard to figure out, it is the same guilt that Malcolm felt. They conceived a star child, that put a huge burden on Harry before he even drew his first breath. The fate of mankind could very well rest on his shoulders someday, and he didn't ask for any of it. That is the kind of thing that makes a loving parent feel guilty.
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@g33k: Better show that thread to Harry, lol.
Funny thing is that Harry knows that he could use his talents to be fantastically wealthy.
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@Mira: The WOJ that Harry would find out something that Lea was involved with and that they would fight over it. I'm just guessing at the context of the fight.
For me I'm just going on the fact that she was beginning to regret how her life turned out b/c it keeps her a tad more sympathetic than if she just got in too deep and had to run. That way she's already on that path when she meets Malcolm and that convinces her to stick with it.
@morriswalters: Oh, ok so instead of WCV trying to mind whammy Malcolm after he and Margaret are already in love, they tried to do so beforehand just as a preventive measure?
Ok, that makes sense. It makes me wonder if Margaret realized, even after she changed her ways, and got together w/ Malcolm, that she'd still create a starborn. Since she felt guilt over what happened to Harry, I don't think the irony was lost on her.
@Bad Alias: Right bt its much more fun to tease him about it. :)
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he WOJ that Harry would find out something that Lea was involved with and that they would fight over it. I'm just guessing at the context of the fight.
For me I'm just going on the fact that she was beginning to regret how her life turned out b/c it keeps her a tad more sympathetic than if she just got in too deep and had to run. That way she's already on that path when she meets Malcolm and that convinces her to stick with it.
I wasn't aware of that WOJ. For me either way Margaret is a sympathetic character, it makes no difference whether she began to repent on her own or did after she meets Malcolm. The point is she changed.
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Stalin could have changed. It wouldn't have unfilled the graves he created with his victims. For the purpose of the story I accept that she loved her son, but to quote Goodman Grey, she evidently was a piece of work.
@morriswalters: Oh, ok so instead of WCV trying to mind whammy Malcolm after he and Margaret are already in love, they tried to do so beforehand just as a preventive measure?
Ok, that makes sense. It makes me wonder if Margaret realized, even after she changed her ways, and got together w/ Malcolm, that she'd still create a starborn. Since she felt guilt over what happened to Harry, I don't think the irony was lost on her.
The deal was done. Lash calls it in White Knight."It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth—because of why you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
What the hell was she talking about?
Thud-thump: 1:26.
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
Nothing about his birth was random. Not the when or the why. Malcolm may or may not be a scion. But she was moving to a point. She may have regretted doing to Harry whatever she did. But the operative phrase is "she did". So Harry was meant to be born on Halloween. Margaret couldn't control conception but she could control time. She could lay up in the Nevernever and come out when the time was at hand.
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Oh that's a neat idea for her to wait/alter time in the Nevernever.
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Jim's made a point of this, over and over again. It's time travel but in a reverse direction to what is expected. It's the first time trap in back to the future.
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Stalin could have changed. It wouldn't have unfilled the graves he created with his victims. For the purpose of the story I accept that she loved her son, but to quote Goodman Grey, she evidently was a piece of work.
But apparently she did redeem herself, she was well on the way to Hell according to Chauncy, "but the Dark Prince lost her in the end." Chauncy also mentions "redemption," and the "unnatural death of both father and mother." So Margaret apparently paid for her sins and redeemed herself, true, as far as the deaths she caused goes, you cannot unring that bell, but there is such a thing as forgiveness.
Nothing about his birth was random. Not the when or the why. Malcolm may or may not be a scion. But she was moving to a point. She may have regretted doing to Harry whatever she did. But the operative phrase is "she did". So Harry was meant to be born on Halloween. Margaret couldn't control conception but she could control time. She could lay up in the Nevernever and come out when the time was at hand.
I doubt that Malcolm was a scion, Eb says he was merely a mortal vanilla human with one of the best souls he ever saw. No, nothing was random about Harry's conception or his birth, that is why his parents feel guilty, Harry had no say in a lot of what is going to come down on him because of what he is. Oh and conception can be controlled, I imagine that Margaret was very in-tuned to her body and her cycle, she'd know exactly when she was fertile, and marking when the stars were aligned exactly for the conception of a star child to be possible.
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Sidenote on the redemption motif. The Dresden Files it's pretty prevelent. The KNights of the Cross have to offer it to all of the Denarians, and other monsters they face. Sasha was a Denarian before he turned away, I would say he's been redeemed.
Thomas killed who knows how many women before Justine, and a few after. Hell even Harry offers redemption to Hannah Ascher. Some people have Snape syndrome when it comes to Morgan. Not me personally bastard had it coming.
Mollly has been redeemed at least twice. First with the mental whammy, second as the Rag Lady.
I don't think Macolm was a scion, I do think he's an angel or atleast, a part of the Purgatory Squad. I do think Leansidhes Godmother deal involved the death of one or both of Harry's parents. Only thing I can think of that would cause Harry to duel her in anger and grief.
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I don't think Macolm was a scion, I do think he's an angel or atleast, a part of the Purgatory Squad. I do think Leansidhes Godmother deal involved the death of one or both of Harry's parents. Only thing I can think of that would cause Harry to duel her in anger and grief.
I think if Malcolm was any of those things Eb would have picked up on that. He said he was an ordinary vanilla human, but had about the best soul he'd ever seen. Now there are saints, they start out a ordinary vanilla humans, Malcolm may have fit into that catagory.
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I think if Malcolm was any of those things Eb would have picked up on that. He said he was an ordinary vanilla human, but had about the best soul he'd ever seen. Now there are saints, they start out a ordinary vanilla humans, Malcolm may have fit into that catagory.
Yeah; I think if Eb had soulgazed Michael Carpenter, he would have seen something similar.
It's clear in the Dresdenverse that humans have extraordinary potential. 99.9999% of them never even begin to touch it.
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Yeah; I think if Eb had soulgazed Michael Carpenter, he would have seen something similar.
It's clear in the Dresdenverse that humans have extraordinary potential. 99.9999% of them never even begin to touch it.
Agreed.
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There's a WoJ that "Saints" are wizards who also have faith magic. Basically if Michael was also a wizard.
If Malcolm was an angel, I don't think he would have died so easily.
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There's a WoJ that "Saints" are wizards who also have faith magic. Basically if Michael was also a wizard.
If Malcolm was an angel, I don't think he would have died so easily.
We don't know that Malcolm died easily, only that supposedly he died in his sleep. Just because there was no sign of struggle, that doesn't mean that it was easy. I agree though, he was not a supernatural being of any kind, including an angel.
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There's a WoJ that "Saints" are wizards who also have faith magic. Basically if Michael was also a wizard.
Really?
Geez. Today's my day for learning about all sorts of WoJ's I don't recall... :o :'(
Dunno if that makes me one of the lucky 10,000
or just getting senile.
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We don't know that Malcolm died easily, only that supposedly he died in his sleep. Just because there was no sign of struggle, that doesn't mean that it was easy. I agree though, he was not a supernatural being of any kind, including an angel.
We don't even know he died in his sleep. Harry believes that, but he was six. I doubt anyone would tell him the unvarnished truth if it was something awful.
I didn't say I think he wasn't a supernatural being of any kind, just not an angel. I like the idea that he was vanilla. I just don't see a whole lot of evidence for it. All we have is Harry's recollections from his early childhood.
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Really?
Geez. Today's my day for learning about all sorts of WoJ's I don't recall... :o :'(
Dunno if that makes me one of the lucky 10,000
or just getting senile.
No, it's what makes WOJ's so aggravating. There is no definitive searchable resource.
Exactly when and where did Malcolm get soul gazed by Eb? Graveside?and marking when the stars were aligned exactly for the conception of a star child to be possible.
I don't know that the stars had anything to do with it.We don't even know he died in his sleep. Harry believes that, but he was six. I doubt anyone would tell him the unvarnished truth if it was something awful.
He died in his sleep one night. An aneurism, the doctors said. I found him, cold, smiling.
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Yeah, he died when Harry was asleep. And six. Who's say he wasn't awake when he died? Six year old Harry.
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Harry doesn't describe a scene of violence and and dying in his sleep is a reasonable inference for a six year old. Maybe Jim will enlighten the point one day.
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Exactly when and where did Malcolm get soul gazed by Eb? Graveside?
So you think that Eb never met Malcolm? In Blood Rites
Eb tells Harry page 299 paperback
"She met your father. A man. A mortal, without power, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I've ever seen,I believe she fell in love with him.
So evidently Eb did meet Malcolm, and since he talks about what Malcolm's soul looks like compared to others he has seen.. That sounds like a soul gaze to me, which makes sense that Eb might want to know why his daughter is so interested in this seemingly ordinary guy.
I don't know that the stars had anything to do with it.
Metaphorically speaking, but astrological as well, as Lash tells Harry page 363 White Night hardback
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
If Lash knew what they were, apparently Margaret did as well. After she met Malcolm, no doubt she felt he was exactly the guy to father such a child. I am willing also to bet she payed close attention to her cycle, knew when she would be the most fertile. With help from the Winter Court, and who knows, Listens to Wind, she could tweak her moment of conception... Heck since it appears that Malcolm cooperated in this, Harry could have been conceived in a test tube to make sure the timing was just right.
He died in his sleep one night. An aneurism, the doctors said. I found him, cold, smiling.
I know, however that still doesn't mean it was easy to set things up to kill him does it?
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@Mira
I have no idea what Eb did or didn't do. I know the text. But it means nothing without the underlying context.
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@Mira
I have no idea what Eb did or didn't do. I know the text. But it means nothing without the underlying context.
Read the chapter in Blood Rites where Harry demands answers from Eb for your context. Eb says of Malcolm's soul," like few I've ever seen." You think he is lying? You say you know the text, then you have read the chapter.. If you have read the series, then you know a little about how a soul gaze works. Eb is either lying to Harry or at some point he soul gazed Malcolm to form the opinion that he his soul was good, like few he'd ever seen.. Note, Eb doesn't say that Malcolm was one of the best men he has ever seen, or that he was a good man, no, he says ,"But a man with a good soul, like few I've ever seen"
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Cram as much meaning as you wish in those two sentences. They do not say that he soul gazed Malcolm. They can be read multiple ways. Your interpretation is only one. It may be the right one, but WAG's are built on the other interpretations. :)
Soul gazes are presented as something more intimate than sex. I would need to have a premise that justified Malcolm letting a stranger impose that intimacy upon him.
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Cram as much meaning as you wish in those two sentences. They do not say that he soul gazed Malcolm. They can be read multiple ways. Your interpretation is only one. It may be the right one, but WAG's are built on the other interpretations. :)
Soul gazes are presented as something more intimate than sex. I would need to have a premise that justified Malcolm letting a stranger impose that intimacy upon him.
Eb wouldn't have been a stranger, this was the father of the woman Malcolm loved. Not some stranger that came in from the street getting randomly soul gazed. This is a man his daughter loved, who apparently left Lord Raith for and all the risks that entails, it is only natural he'd want to know just who this guy is. And what is the best way for that? Drum roll please, the soul gaze. There is as much justification for my wag as yours...
Eb met Malcolm at that same meeting. The meeting was about producing a child as a Starborn. Malcolm is a scion of an angel. Eb objects but Margaret says to hell with it since she is under the influence of Raith and has the baby anyway and falls for Malcolm releasing her from Raith's control. True love. Possibly Malcolm was himself controlled by Raith.
Where exactly is your justification from the text for that again? Where is it written that Malcolm was even at this meeting? Or that Malcolm is the scion of an angel? Eb says Malcolm was just an ordinary vanilla human, nothing special about save his goodness. Or where is your text evidence even remote evidence that Malcolm was possibly controlled by Raith?
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Your interpretation is only one. It may be the right one, but WAG's are built on the other interpretations. :)
Eb had a meeting with the cast, Raith, the Reds, Margaret. And who knows who else was there.
Margaret was enthralled by Papa Raith.
Eb reacted to whatever idea that was floated, to the point of what can only be referred to as a bitter family fight.
Margaret broke away from Papa Raith.
Now for some inference.
Why write about this argument if it doesn't serve the plot? Jim says he is a lazy writer.
What mechanism allowed Margaret to break away?
The text specifically says that Margaret was running from Eb who had orders to kill her.
She ran for two years, but had to meet Malcolm, fall in love, get married and get pregnant in a span of fifteen months. All while hiding from all her enemies.
One can assume that Raith took something of hers that he could use as a target for the curse. Inferred by the fact that he killed her. So he was either waiting for the child or she was able to hide from him in some manner.
If Eb soul gazed Malcolm then Malcolm saw into Eb's soul as well. Since Malcolm chose not to tell Harry about about Eb, what does that tell us?
We can assume that Margaret told Malcolm who Eb was. She also would have told him about the people who were chasing her and why. She chose Lea as Harry's protector rather than Eb.
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Eb had a meeting with the cast, Raith, the Reds, Margaret. And who knows who else was there ...
We only know Duchess Arianna was there (not any other Ramps). But when we actually meet her, she's in a faction looking to unseat the Red King.
I doubt "the Reds" (as a cohesive group) were at that meeting!
... The text specifically says that Margaret was running from Eb who had orders to kill her ...
Cite? The only quote that I recall was Eb saying he "had his own orders" regarding her.
I found that quote notable for (a) implying Eb's orders were perhaps not identical to the orders the Wardens had regarding her, and (b) not actually stating that he planned to obey said orders.
... One can assume that Raith took something of hers that he could use as a target for the curse. Inferred by the fact that he killed her. So he was either waiting for the child or she was able to hide from him in some manner.
Quite a few other inferences possible. Maybe he thought he could recapture her. Maybe he took advantage of her being in labor to insert a Whamp-Whammied agent into her medical team. Etc.
... If Eb soul gazed Malcolm then Malcolm saw into Eb's soul as well. Since Malcolm chose not to tell Harry about about Eb, what does that tell us?
We can assume that Margaret told Malcolm who Eb was. She also would have told him about the people who were chasing her and why. She chose Lea as Harry's protector rather than Eb.
Hmmm. This is an interesting point! But actually: she chose Malcom over either of them.
Still, she clearly also laid plans for when/if Malcom was out of the picture. Lea certainly knew where Harry was. Morgan didn't know (per the Journal microfiction). We actually have no info as to whether Eb knew, or not... no in-universe canon, no WoJ (that I know of). I'm a bit dubious as to whether she had the whole bit with the orphanage pre-arranged... it seems improbable, honestly!
I think she got Lea in addition to Eb: she figured Eb would do what he could for his grandson, but having Lea too could only be for the better.
Also, I think she was trying to set up for Harry to be raised outside the White Council; I suspect she suspected her son wouldn't survive if he were raised as an insider.
As to why Malcom chose to keep hiding, and didn't tell Harry about Eb -- I might suspect that Margaret's death appeared to him more as "wizard" action than Whamp. So Malcom was suspicious about the White Council, and didn't want to expose his son. Six years old is just too young to begin explaining how your grandpa may have murdered your mommy... or just didn't keep the secret well enough and his friends murdered your mommy...
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@g33k
Yeah, I can never remember her name.
I have only my imagination. Although I'm pretty sure it wasn't to bring her in for a fair trial. More like if there is no body there needn't be a trial. I'm open to suggestions.
There are many WAG's available, I've chosen this one.
Hmmm. This is an interesting point! But actually: she chose Malcom over either of them.
Still, she clearly also laid plans for when/if Malcom was out of the picture. Lea certainly knew where Harry was. Morgan didn't know (per the Journal microfiction). We actually have no info as to whether Eb knew, or not... no in-universe canon, no WoJ (that I know of). I'm a bit dubious as to whether she had the whole bit with the orphanage pre-arranged... it seems improbable, honestly!
If she chose Malcolm she chose poorly. Her choice of Morgan was only marginally better. Also, any ideas of who the we is in the Morgan microfiction.From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.
However in terms of motivation I'm undercutting Mira's statement that Eb soul gazed Malcolm, while emphasizing my WAG. Typical of debate on the internet.
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But actually: she chose Malcom over either of them.
She chose Malcolm to raise him. She chose Lea to see to his spiritual direction and protect him. She chose Morgan to protect him. Beyond that, we really don't know, and the first sentence is a guess.
I'm not sure how much or how little Malcolm knew about anything supernatural.
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As to why Malcom chose to keep hiding, and didn't tell Harry about Eb -- I might suspect that Margaret's death appeared to him more as "wizard" action than Whamp. So Malcom was suspicious about the White Council, and didn't want to expose his son. Six years old is just too young to begin explaining how your grandpa may have murdered your mommy... or just didn't keep the secret well enough and his friends murdered your mommy...
Ever try to explain anything to a six year old? Especially supernatural politics. It also follows if Malcolm was just an ordinary good man as Eb described him, he'd have known two things once Margaret was murdered, 1] he was in way over his head, had been from the moment he agreed to father a star child, if he even understood what that was exactly. 2] Someone wanted his son very badly and the best way to keep him safe is to stay on the road and trust no one... He was wrong about the last.
If she chose Malcolm she chose poorly. Her choice of Morgan was only marginally better. Also, any ideas of who the we is in the Morgan microfiction.
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It depends on what you value and what qualities you think are needed. What is most often said about Malcolm? A good soul, a man with a good heart.. What is often said about Harry and quite often carries him through and makes him so valued by his friends? His good heart, which he is repeatedly told he inherited from his father.
From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis
No, but then Morgan and whoever didn't know Malcolm, nor know his soul.. Harry is his son, inheriting both his good heart and more than likely his stubborn will.. Nemesis would never be successful in molding a child like that.. This Margaret knew, that is why with Malcolm she conceived a star child.
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Who was the we?
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I think the we from the mircofiction may have been him and Luccio.
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Who was the we?
I don't think we know.
I suspect there was some sort of "proto-grey-council" with Morgan and Luccio and maybe others; or maybe Luccio knew of it, but wasn't on it (I got the vague sense that Morgan was explaining to the "we" to Luccio, as if she weren't part of it).
Maybe call it the "pale grey council" or something... closer to the White Council, but still operating a bit in the shadows.
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I don't think we know.
I suspect there was some sort of "proto-grey-council" with Morgan and Luccio and maybe others; or maybe Luccio knew of it, but wasn't on it (I got the vague sense that Morgan was explaining to the "we" to Luccio, as if she weren't part of it).
Maybe call it the "pale grey council" or something... closer to the White Council, but still operating a bit in the shadows.
I think it will be a while because at the moment I doubt it is clear as to what side everyone is on or even what the sides are.
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... at the moment I doubt it is clear as to what side everyone is on or even what the sides are.
An entirely fair and apt point!!! ;)
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You'll notice that they waited to snatch Harry at six. Wizards don't like diaper messes, and Justin didn't appear to be the type of guy to go down that road. Malcolm on the other hand appears to be like that kid in the commercial where the other kids say 'Let Mikey do it.'
In terms of sides there is Harry and the A team. Two skulls and a crusty prison guard. Toot Toot and the Guard. The Tooth Fairy. A newly minted Knight with bad vision. A white vamp and proto father. Three werewolves and a Temple Dog. Two on the injured reserve, an ex cop with a bad knee and a former Knight with a most perfect safe house.
Team Winter.
Uriel, Mab, and Vadderung. With Hades as a banker. The god squad, kinda.
Nemesis and whatever "it" is supposed to represent.
The Circle, some bitchin bad guys maybe based in Egypt.
Oh, and the Senior Council, which has one foot on a banana peel and the other over the abyss.
Comic relief, the Formor. Who may or may not be due an upgrade.
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No one snatched Harry at six. Wasn't he in a state run orphanage for the next five years or so? I think Lea visited from time to time, but she didn't influence him. I don't think even she planned for Justin to grab him at twelve. Six is the perfect age for brain washing and molding of young forming minds, yet it didn't happen. Was everyone hedging their bets until his talent started to manifest itself? Or they were all clueless as to what Harry was? Perhaps Justin wasn't looking for star born kids when he adopted Harry and Elaine, but merely wanted talented unattached that he could train up as enforcers with no questions asked? Which begs thequestion, enforcers for what? :o
In terms of sides there is Harry and the A team. Two skulls and a crusty prison guard. Toot Toot and the Guard. The Tooth Fairy. A newly minted Knight with bad vision. A white vamp and proto father. Three werewolves and a Temple Dog. Two on the injured reserve, an ex cop with a bad knee and a former Knight with a most perfect safe house.
Not that significant, good in small fights, but no political pull..
Team Winter.
Significant, but not clear who is teaming up with them aside from wizard or two..
Uriel, Mab, and Vadderung. With Hades as a banker. The god squad, kinda.
Not clear because they keep their cards close to their vests... Now against Reds with the exception of Hades[unknown as a player at the time] they were on team Harry..
Nemesis and whatever "it" is supposed to represent.
Indeed, and since almost anybody can be vulnerable to infiltration by it, it is unclear who's side who is on, or who the sides are.
The Circle, some bitchin bad guys maybe based in Egypt.
Totally fuzzy at this point, only guy who might be a member is Cowl.
Oh, and the Senior Council, which has one foot on a banana peel and the other over the abyss.
Back to my original premise, I doubt it is clear as to what side everyone is on or even what the sides are
Comic relief, the Formor. Who may or may not be due an upgrade.
Agreed, they are at best a distraction, but do not underestimate a group that kidnaps children at
the rate that they do. Unless they enjoy them roasted over a slow fire, just what are they planning to do with all of them.
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Unless the titan is the express of the Fomor. She fits the profile given by Lea in Ghost Story.
“Once, they were the enemies of my people, Winter and Summer alike,” she said, lifting her chin as her emerald eyes grew distant. “We banished them to the sea. Now they are the exiles of myth and legend, the outcasts of the gods and demons of every land bordering the sea. Defeated giants, fallen gods, dark reflections of beings of light. They are many races and none, joined together beneath the banner of the Fomor in a common cause.”
Fits a titan pretty well.