Author Topic: "Job placement" microfiction  (Read 17326 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2020, 08:21:39 PM »
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I think we are probably in agreement on 80 to 90% of the stuff about Butters. Much closer to 100% on the quoted portion.

I think if you guys want big Sword fights, Butters isn't your guy,  actually I don't think Sanya is either.
He maybe young and athletic enough for them, but I think he prefers to use his gun.  I think Michael and Shiro were big on using their Swords, it may depend on who is next in line for the Sword of Love..  I think Sanya prefers to use his gun because then he doesn't want to run into the problems that Murphy ran into.  If she had just executed Nic with a gun instead of trying with a Holy Sword, he'd be just as dead and she wouldn't have blown the rules governing the Swords, leaving Nic alive and breaking the Sword.   I think Michael has a few more scruples as did Shiro in this case, and never questioned the idea of giving the coin holder a shot at giving up the coin and redemption.  So they could have big Sword fights, no problem.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2020, 07:03:48 AM »
How is the Western Regional Commander the junior of the Eastern Regional Commander? Harry was appointed as a regional commander when he got his cloak. Ramirez got the job as the "other regional commander in America" sometime after the second to last chapter of Dead Beat. Carlos has been a warden longer. Carlos probably has more points under any system based on superiors' evaluations.
Not what I meant. Carlos isn't Harry's junior perhaps in the White Council wardens (although I would point out that amoungst Wizards, and most of the supernatural community, seniority and age go hand in hand). Harry is the more experienced Wizard, and even amongst wardens of the same rank there is always unofficial ranking, which like most jobs tends to go to the most experienced and/or most respected person. Langtry likes Ramirez, but I think both he and harry hardly rank compared to what remains of the old guard. Beyond that though is the fact Harry is the more powerful person - not just magically but politically and personally. He commands a great deal of respect amongst the various powers, and represents a number of powerful individuals (and their "organizations"). Carlos by comparison is a well-liked, unofficial poster boy for the younger wardens. It doesn't even come close. It will be interesting to see how the Council treats him now that he is both Winter Knight, and the Warden of Demonreach. Carlos might have tacit authority, but commanding Harry would be like being the captain of a local men's basketball team when Labron James joins the team. The head of the club might have made you the captain, but leadership and power are more tenuous than titles would like them to be.

Harry is the Warden as opposed to a warden, but the Council, maybe even Senior Council, seems to be largely in the dark on that. So it's a toss up as to who is senior under whatever tie breaker the Council uses.
That's why Carlos is in charge instead of Harry.
I suspect that the fact that almost only the Senior Council know about the Warden position with any depth is that that island and it's purpose were covered up. The power of the position lead to the creation of the wardens (that much is implied), but the original role seems to be far more intense and important than the current emulation. If that position is reintegrated fully...who knows. Considering the first Warden (and warden) was the Original Merlin (Emrys), I suspect that it's likely a former Senior Council role that was done away with. But I am just guessing here.

1. Harry would be a terrible choice because there's bad blood between him and just about everyone else, and Harry's a hot head.
Yes he is. I am not saying that Harry should be the head of security in this situation. But had Harry not died and come back, I think that assuming the Peace Talks were still held in Chicago I believe that security of the talks would have been under Harry's purview (being that he was the Eastern regional commander). I agree that Harry's particular position and tendencies make him a bad candidate but it's no less true that had his tenure not been interrupted he would have been the one in charge.

2. If anyone was worried about offending Harry by putting someone else in charge of something in his territory, using Carlos, the person Harry asked to be in charge of security at the last official Council activity in Chicago, and the excuse that Harry is in a unique position to serve as the liaison to Winter would be enough to satisfy the protocol droids.
I think he used Carlos because he himself was being an advocate for the person on trial. Kinda hard to be impartial... I honestly don't think anyone would care about offending Harry, before or after his death (assuming he didn't want to kill them after - he has a pretty high chance of killing his enemies after all). This will be Harry's first official Council event since his death if I'm not mistaken, he hasn't been fully reintegrated. Not to mention his enormous conflict of interest, as he is now the Winter Knight. The fact they haven't revoked his membership is very interesting. I suspect that they will ask him to be a spy in Winter, and an advocate for them.

Former Captain of the Wardens, Senior Council Member Blackstaff McCoy, is going to be on the ground there, so I don't think the SC is going to be to worried about the young hotheads going off half cocked. It also pays to note that Carlos is one of the oldest wardens, not counting any who may or may not have been pulled out of retirement, because almost all of the active wardens were killed off in Dead Beat. At this point, the old guard can't be more than 50 or so. Probably less. I want to say the number of wardens was around 300 last time the number came up, but I'm not sure.
I suspect that they are including Harry only because A) it is happening in Chicago, B) It's Mab's talks and C) McCoy and the Gatekeeper would definitely have requested his inclusion. Carlos is one of the oldest warden's by mode, but he is still young. There are probably still at least 50 or 60  old guard above him. So he is hardly one of the oldest when he isn't even in the top 20 oldest out of maybe 200-300 wardens. He doesn't even make top 50.

Being a part-time artist takes up way more time than one weekend a year.
During the 363 days out of the year he isn't having the worst weekend of the year?
If you're going off that old stick about each book being "Harry Dresden's worst weekend of the year", I would rethink your position. That was about the how each book was set-up, and was Jim's attitude in the early series. But it hardly counts for Harry's life in the later series, much of which is not shown in the books. From teaching Molly to training wardens before Changes, and afterwards he was Dead for several months, then in physical rehab/Winter Knight training for several more, then Winter Knight missions and then spends most of his time on Demonreach under effectively house arrest only to then go on a heist in the Greek Underworld for the literal Holy Grail. You tell me where his free time is.

The pattern of the old books is gone, that was part of the point of Changes. Harry isn't the wizard gumshoe guy solving murder mysteries. He is the guy trying to save the world now.

Stallings was said to be quite competent, so I'm not so sure it's going to be worse off without Murphy. Murphy hadn't been the one fighting turf wars since Proven Guilty. Honestly, S.I. might be better off. Even accepting your premise, that doesn't mean they aren't going to get all the weird cases in search of a scape goat dumped in their lap anyway. It's been around in one form or another for at least 40 years. It's still going to be a valuable source of information.
They might still get the weird cases, but I am sure they won't be investigated thoroughly like they were when Murphy was in-charge. They are basically the clean up crew, "Hey man see that weird burnt skeleton that has fangs and isn't human but is human sized? Please make that look more like a regular murder case" "No worries Chief, probably just a weird gang thing or terrorists". No weirdness to see here!

All that said, that response is a dodge of my question of if you were a warden in a city of millions, would you want S.I. to keep you in the loop? I ask that question because the answer is an obvious "yes." Harry doesn't have to keep his p.i. business to be kept in the loop, but he does have to offer something of value in return.
But the thing is - Harry hasn't been a warden in Chicago since Changes, and really he wasn't doing much warden stuff in that book. And now that he is back, I don't think he'll have much time to go back to his old routine. So the question you ask is somewhat redundant. Besides, as I said before he can get information on the bigger problems he deals with from better sources like, I don't know, Mab and Kringle? You see where I am going here? He is moving into the majors now - so having his old little league team come and support him (especially when there are so few of the original crew from those days still there) is kinda ridiculous. Not to mention if the White Council falls there won't be anyone doing any wardening at all, and so presumably the masquerade will have fallen or be falling and all hell will be breaking loose. How much time will Dresden have then?

To be honest, I think there is a bit of "golden-age" Dresden Files going on (and you're not the only one thinking it). Harry, and the story by extension, are not what they once were. The evolution from Wizard cross Dirty Harry into Wizard/Superhero and the case files going from literal detective case files (of a sort) to the journal entries of a legend in the making has happened. It was always going to happen. This was part of Jim's plan. It's no surprise either because Jim has told us since day one that he had a big apocalyptic trilogy planned. The series had to build up to that somehow. Dresden isn't going back to his roots for a long-time, maybe ever. We have to accept that and move on. Perhaps some fans will stop reading, but others will celebrate and new fans might join up. I for one want to see where the series is going, and am excited about it. I can always read the earlier cases if I am feeling a bit nostalgic. But better that Jim grows the series organically and logically rather than just going back to what worked for the sake of it, or worse for fan service.

Yes. I don't think all the other parties we see meeting in GS are just going to quit fighting the good fight if Marcone cuts ties with their "Chicago Alliance." Maybe they loose out on Castle Dresden, but Harry doesn't need that. But if the BFS/Chicago Alliance/whatever does collapse and go away, that's a reason why Harry should re-open his office, not a reason that he shouldn't.

I could see Harry not reopening his business. I just think it would be a really dumb move from an in universe perspective. It's a good way to have information show up on your door step. It's also a good way to launder his diamond money, but I doubt that will even come up in the books. He may or may not need more money than the money from the diamonds and his warden pay depending on how much he can get for the diamonds and a bunch of other factors we have little to no information on. As such, I'd want a good in universe explanation of why he's not doing it. (Just as a side note, the last in text job Harry had as Harry Dresden, P.I. was one month before Changes).

I didn't say that the members of the Brighter Future Society would just stop fighting. They will likely just splinter off into their own factional group, as is often the case (unless they all die). But at that point unless everything calms down Harry will be too busy saving the world to go back to being his old self. The world will need Harry Dresden the superhero more than Harry Dresden the PI. There is strong evidence that the series won't calm down, that it will in fact get more wild. Hell, the blurb of Battle Grounds says the world changes forever. It would be a shirking of duty for Harry to bury his head in the sand and go back to his old life while the world is on fire around him, and completely out of character. Not to mention, if the world is burning down would there even BE any cops or clients to help him?




Per the conversation with Morgan about the job at the end of DB, Ramirez is also a regional commander, responsible for the west coast. He must have declined the Council trying to get him to manage both regions at once.

As for SI, I'm not too sure where they're going to stand on supernatural civilian vigilantes now that Harry is back in town. It probably depends how humanoid the creatures in question are, and exactly how clued the SI cops are. I don't get the impression Stallings knows as much as Rawlins, let alone on par with Murphy when she was in charge. Although the FBI building being gutted and the Fomor acting more openly probably should have forced Stallings to learn more than he knew as of Changes & Aftermath. I wouldn't count on SI being OK with exterminating things like whampires or technically-human turtlenecks, though. And executing a warlock was still something Murphy was really bothered by as of PG - I really wouldn't count on most of the rest of SI looking the other way for that.
True enough, it would depend on how humanoid the creatures were. But it could also go the other way i.e. SI might retreat deeper into disbelief and ignorance rather than working harder to find out the truth. Aside from it getting the previous heads of SI fired and police from other units chucked into exile, the supernatural tends to make mortals retreat into delusion (which is really just an allegory for anything people don't understand well). It wouldn't surprise me for SI to work harder at making things look more normal as a response, because confronting the awful truth that there may be a big hidden world - a demimonde - out there would be too terrifying for most of them to contemplate. To some extent, the mortals already do that. Even the White Council when faced with an invisible new threat (the "black council") refused to acknowledge the conspiracy. There is a lot of precedent that says that SI might bury their heads. But even if they did look into it more, likely they would be shut down or Stallings fired, unless they did it very quietly. My guess is they just do their best not to rock the boat.

And I agree - even if they were available and Harry was to go back to full-time being a warden (big ifs), whose to say that the current version of SI would be as helpful as the old one (if not antagonistic).

Offline Mira

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2020, 01:41:10 PM »
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Not what I meant. Carlos isn't Harry's junior perhaps in the White Council wardens (although I would point out that amoungst Wizards, and most of the supernatural community, seniority and age go hand in hand). Harry is the more experienced Wizard, and even amongst wardens of the same rank there is always unofficial ranking, which like most jobs tends to go to the most experienced and/or most respected person. Langtry likes Ramirez, but I think both he and harry hardly rank compared to what remains of the old guard. Beyond that though is the fact Harry is the more powerful person - not just magically but politically and personally. He commands a great deal of respect amongst the various powers, and represents a number of powerful individuals (and their "organizations"). Carlos by comparison is a well-liked, unofficial poster boy for the younger wardens. It doesn't even come close. It will be interesting to see how the Council treats him now that he is both Winter Knight, and the Warden of Demonreach. Carlos might have tacit authority, but commanding Harry would be like being the captain of a local men's basketball team when Labron James joins the team. The head of the club might have made you the captain, but leadership and power are more tenuous than titles would like them to be.

Yeah, I think it comes down to the Senior Council doesn't fully trust Harry, never has.  You can begin with how Harry became a full wizard in the first place and the Doom he was placed under.  It was well aired back in Summer Knight when a number of them wanted Harry demoted back to apprentice.  I doubt that for a couple of them there is anything Harry can do to change that.  So
for the sake of unity on the Senior Council as well as the White Council, it is best that a noncontroversial person be in charge, thus Carlos gets a little more power than Harry in the command structure of the wardens.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2020, 06:04:03 PM »
Not what I meant. Carlos isn't Harry's junior ...
Okay. I still think Carlos would be picked, over Harry, for the same reasons as I said earlier. I also don't think anyone would be worried about offending Harry. Carlos is also picked over Harry for the same reason Carlos was picked over Eb. There was a better use for Eb.

it's no less true that had his tenure not been interrupted he would have been the one in charge.
I'm not sure that's the case. Especially if he was still the Winter Knight in that hypothetical.

My point about Carlos being in the top fifth or fourth of wardens by age is more that there aren't a lot of older wardens to go around than Carlos is old because I agree that he isn't old.

You tell me where his free time is.
He's got enough free time to investigate and solve a murder case that isn't his responsibility and plan a trip to the zoo between SG and PT.

I don't see S.I. ignoring Harry instead of giving him information. I don't see why they wouldn't at least hand him a copy of the file and be done with it. Murphy's bosses were never fine with routine S.I. cases being buried. They were constantly pressuring her to come up with answers. I don't think that will change.

[1]But the thing is - Harry hasn't been a warden in Chicago since Changes, and really he wasn't doing much warden stuff in that book. And now that he is back, I don't think he'll have much time to go back to his old routine. So the question you ask is somewhat redundant. [2]Besides, as I said before he can get information on the bigger problems he deals with from better sources like, I don't know, Mab and Kringle? You see where I am going here? [3]He is moving into the majors now - so having his old little league team come and support him (especially when there are so few of the original crew from those days still there) is kinda ridiculous. [4]Not to mention if the White Council falls there won't be anyone doing any wardening at all, and so presumably the masquerade will have fallen or be falling and all hell will be breaking loose. How much time will Dresden have then?
1. Okay. This doesn't answer my question, but it shows me why you didn't answer it, which is better. If Harry stops being a warden and is always busy with a global crisis, then I can see him not keeping up with S.I. I don't think he will always be dealing with a global crisis though because that's basically Jim saying that there's a bunch of interesting stuff happening in Harry's life, but I'm not going to talk about it. Maybe he will completely change the format of the books to where they take place over longer periods of time, but I don't think so. The closest we've gotten to that was CD where the book literally takes place over a few months.

2. Using those sources always comes with a cost. I'm not sure he's going to keep turning to them for information. They might be the source of the future case files, but Harry will still need to work his sources when investigating the cases. Harry doesn't know which ones will be useful and which won't, so it wouldn't make sense for him to cut ties with S.I. The first case Mab gave him had Harry asking Karrin for information.

3. I'm not saying Harry is going to involve them in any of the action. Harry has always been the guy leveraging the little resources everyone else ignored. He used a bunch of pixies to kill a Lady. He still uses pixies. Harry has also always been playing out of his league (except maybe in SF).

4. If the White Council falls, then Harry will need all the support he can get.

But at that point unless everything calms down Harry will be too busy saving the world to go back to being his old self. The world will need Harry Dresden the superhero more than Harry Dresden the PI.
When he's saving the world, he still needs information to do it. He got help from the "boats, boats, boats" guy in CD. Harry's still going to need information. He's still going to need to figure things out.

whose to say that the current version of SI would be as helpful as the old one (if not antagonistic).
Whose to say they won't be more helpful? My point is I don't see why they would be unwilling to exchange information with Harry. The only reason Karrin lasted as long as she did in S.I. was because she had Harry's help. I could see Harry not needing their help in any of the books from here on out and Jim never mentioning them again. I don't think it's likely, especially the Jim just not mentioning it part, but I can see it. I'm not so sure about them not needing Harry's help. I can see them becoming antagonistic in a full breakdown of the masquerade that results in a general "burn the witch" atmosphere. That's the only reason I can see for Harry cutting ties with S.I.

I think Harry is still going to be a p.i., but I would agree that it will continue to play less and less of a role in the story than it has. I wouldn't be too surprised if it mostly only shows up in short stories at this point, but I think it will still be there at least in the background.

A big part of my point isn't that Harry's life is going to be so different, it's more that Harry doesn't know he's heading to the BAT. Harry's going to try to get his life as close to regular as he can if for no other reason than to fight the influence Winter on his life.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2020, 02:07:44 AM »
Okay. I still think Carlos would be picked, over Harry, for the same reasons as I said earlier. I also don't think anyone would be worried about offending Harry. Carlos is also picked over Harry for the same reason Carlos was picked over Eb. There was a better use for Eb.
Fair enough, we can agree to disagree who would have got picked. It's a hypothetical situation anyway - Carlos is picked currently. As I said, I don't think anyone has really EVER worried about offending Harry. Although some are fairly wary of him considering his propensity for killing his enemies and often destroying their entire world. Eb wouldn't manage security as he is a Senior Council member now. At most he might manage the wardens, but I suspect that they all report to the Senior Council for different things.

I'm not sure that's the case. Especially if he was still the Winter Knight in that hypothetical.
For the hypothetical to work, Harry never became the Winter Knight. Because it seems pretty clear that no matter what choice Harry made, if he took any deal he would have tried to kill himself (and the Fallen would have crossed the line to push him to do it). What would have been interesting is if Harry hadn't hurt his back and taken a deal, but he and the Grey and the White Councils respectively had teamed up against the Reds. Would the outcome have been the same? Would Harry and his pals have survived? Would the Reds have been wiped out or merely defeated? Or would the Reds have won?

My point about Carlos being in the top fifth or fourth of wardens by age is more that there aren't a lot of older wardens to go around than Carlos is old because I agree that he isn't old.
Yeah but being in the top 5th of oldest wardens is hardly the same as being "one of the oldest wardens". I agree there are not a lot of old wardens anymore and considering that of let's say 250 wardens, 2/3 are under 40 - it still doesn't really make Carlos one of the oldest. He is still in the bottom 2/3. But I do agree that of those younger wardens, he would be one of the oldest after Harry and possibly the most senior.

He's got enough free time to investigate and solve a murder case that isn't his responsibility and plan a trip to the zoo between SG and PT.
Which is the first amount of free time he has had since Skin Games ended. Between Changes and Skin Games (the last few years) he has had no free time. I suspect that this lull is just the calm before the storm anyhow.

Curiously, we know that the Christmas Eve short story is after Peace Talks but is it after Battle Grounds? Because the announcement was (and the story confirms) that it is after Peace Talks. But Jim and his team would have long known about the split into two books by that point. They obviously didn't want to reveal Battle Grounds at that point but I wonder if the fact that it is after Peace Talks is deliberate. Another moment of quiet before the inferno of Battle Grounds?

I don't see S.I. ignoring Harry instead of giving him information. I don't see why they wouldn't at least hand him a copy of the file and be done with it. Murphy's bosses were never fine with routine S.I. cases being buried. They were constantly pressuring her to come up with answers. I don't think that will change.
They were constantly pressuring her to come up with NORMAL answers. Not the same as actually solving the case. You're working with how SI used to operate. Not how they might now. Lots has changed in the world, both in Dresden's supernatural world and ours. Chances are there would be new bosses, new appointments and perhaps even new politicians (potentially from another political party) than when Dresden worked with them. All of which would impact greatly on how the police operate, and would filter down to SI. Yes, it's all hypothetical but not unreasonable considering how much time has passed.

1. Okay. This doesn't answer my question, but it shows me why you didn't answer it, which is better. If Harry stops being a warden and is always busy with a global crisis, then I can see him not keeping up with S.I. I don't think he will always be dealing with a global crisis though because that's basically Jim saying that there's a bunch of interesting stuff happening in Harry's life, but I'm not going to talk about it. Maybe he will completely change the format of the books to where they take place over longer periods of time, but I don't think so. The closest we've gotten to that was CD where the book literally takes place over a few months.
Jim has actually used that technique before. He has talked mentioned about how Harry trained new wardens, Red Court skirmishes, learning secrets of Demonreach (particularly about activating the defenses), and some Winter Knight training. We always see Dresden's craziest moments, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have plenty of slightly less crazy days throughout the year. And Jim is changing the format of the books I believe. That is part of the reason for Peace Talks being split in two. Which isn't to say that he will extend the amount of time each book covers. But it doesn't mean that isn't the case either. We will just have to wait and see.

2. Using those sources always comes with a cost. I'm not sure he's going to keep turning to them for information. They might be the source of the future case files, but Harry will still need to work his sources when investigating the cases. Harry doesn't know which ones will be useful and which won't, so it wouldn't make sense for him to cut ties with S.I. The first case Mab gave him had Harry asking Karrin for information.
Indeed it does. However Harry's life is never all that easy, and more and more he has had to cross lines that he once wouldn't have dreamed of crossing. Things he thought were abhorrent, insane and forbidden. Which is deliberate on Jim's part of course. Who knows how far Harry will go. Exactly, he went to Karrin. His long time friend, ally and love interest. Not some police guys he hasn't worked with in years and barely knows. The last time he dealt with law enforcement a building of feds was slaughtered. I doubt he will go near them anytime soon.

3. I'm not saying Harry is going to involve them in any of the action. Harry has always been the guy leveraging the little resources everyone else ignored. He used a bunch of pixies to kill a Lady. He still uses pixies. Harry has also always been playing out of his league (except maybe in SF).
Look, I wouldn't put it past Jim to use them as a bit of a throwback and to add some extra red shirts to a scene. But that's all they will be. They won't be a long standing ally, and certainly not the same relationship that he previously had. Yes, Harry always is out of his league. All the more reason he doesn't want to involve innocent people. More blood on his hands. The last few books before Changes he explicitly tells Murphy that SI need to stay out of things as it would be a slaughter. He has come a long way and understood the problem of involving mortals much more than in the early series. These days though - when he fights in a heavier weight class he tends to bring his own heavies and tips the scales. He is fighting smarter now.

4. If the White Council falls, then Harry will need all the support he can get.
When he's saving the world, he still needs information to do it. He got help from the "boats, boats, boats" guy in CD. Harry's still going to need information. He's still going to need to figure things out.
I agree he will need all the help he can get. But it won't be from cops to solve murder mysteries. The only help they will be is an extra red shirt. Harry may have no choice but to recruit them. But assuming that Titan hasn't burned down Chicago after Battle Grounds, I think they will be too busy in clean up mode. If they survive the assault at all.

Whose to say they won't be more helpful? My point is I don't see why they would be unwilling to exchange information with Harry. The only reason Karrin lasted as long as she did in S.I. was because she had Harry's help. I could see Harry not needing their help in any of the books from here on out and Jim never mentioning them again. I don't think it's likely, especially the Jim just not mentioning it part, but I can see it. I'm not so sure about them not needing Harry's help. I can see them becoming antagonistic in a full breakdown of the masquerade that results in a general "burn the witch" atmosphere. That's the only reason I can see for Harry cutting ties with S.I.
Me. They can't help against these types of issues. They just are not trained or equipped for fighting the supernatural. They would be hard pressed to contain a sorcerer. The Loup-Garou slaughtered them. Against a flat-out Fomor assault...well, it wouldn't be pretty. Karrin lost her job because of Harry. If anything, her whole tragedy is that she refused to look the other way. Which is why Rudolph was so successful. Had she turned more weird cases into nice, neat normal solved cases she wouldn't have stayed in SI long. She might not have even ever gone to SI. I guess we will wait and see what happens with SI. But I would point out that they haven't been actively involved in the series for a long time. I think since Turn Coat, and that was really only Murphy. The last time any of them were on-screen before that was Small Favor.

I think Harry is still going to be a p.i., but I would agree that it will continue to play less and less of a role in the story than it has. I wouldn't be too surprised if it mostly only shows up in short stories at this point, but I think it will still be there at least in the background.
It will have to be a wait and see. But officially, he is dead. And even if somehow that has changed/changes - I doubt he will go back to it. But perhaps there will be lulls and he will have time in the short stories.

A big part of my point isn't that Harry's life is going to be so different, it's more that Harry doesn't know he's heading to the BAT. Harry's going to try to get his life as close to regular as he can if for no other reason than to fight the influence Winter on his life.
True. Only a few clued in people know the shape of what's coming. And how soon. I agree that Harry will do his best to get back to his old life. But he also has to be a Dad now. So to some degree I think he will be just doing his best to create a new life. I also suspect a new love interest is incoming if Murphy dies and/or if she can no longer be looked after by the Carpenters when Harry is busy. At the very least it will help him balance his parenting duties. On the other hand, Butcher might just do the single Dad route for a while. Harry had that and he turned out...well, he is mostly alright. Certainly not a complete mess.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2020, 04:54:31 AM »
I think you keep missing what I'm saying Harry should use S.I. for. You keep talking about literally fighting the supernatural. I'm saying S.I. would be useful as a source of information. They're often going to know what's going on because that's where weird cases go.

Murphy was constantly under pressure to stop the weird murders. That's why the position was a temporary one before Murphy hired Harry. No one in charge at S.I. was able to stop the weird occurrences. Stallings was probably able to stay in the position because of all the things that S.I. learned from Harry. S.I. called Harry in less and less as they could handle more and more. They come to Harry when it's urgent, something they haven't seen before, or something they've been told isn't a case.

The party in power in Chicago hasn't changed in about a century. The last Republican mayor was elected in 1927. Chicago's city council currently has 46 Democrats, 4 independents, and 0 Republicans. The political changes in Chicago are usually to do whatever was already being done, only harder.

Harry is officially alive. That's how he got jury duty. The Gatekeeper took care of it after he survived the events of CD.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2020, 06:53:22 AM »
I think we both just disagree on the future role of SI altogether. I get that you see their use as information gathers and analysers for Harry. I just don't see it happening myself, for the reasons I have previously outlined.

Yes and No. Murphy was under pressure to solve the cases in a way that was palatable to City Hall. Not the same thing as actually stop the murders. Murphy, being good people, felt it was her moral and legal duty to solve these cases and protect Chicago's citizens from the weird stuff. But many would not have. More political animals would have blamed it on easy scapegoats (like Dresden) and pointed to their number of "solved" cases.

All positions are temporary, at least in the mortal world. I think you mean the position was unstable. Most left the position quickly. Murphy might have been the longest serving Lieutenant (although I don't think that was ever stated), but she likely was the best. Stallings has done well because he knows enough from his time with Murphy to know where the weird is but is probably better at dealing with the politics better than Murphy was (being less of a hot head and a zealot). Not to mention he doesn't have the same bias against him. Murphy was shunted to SI because she had too much integrity and bucked the system, and also because she was a young female. Whatever your views on gender discrimination, there is definitely systematic bias in boy's clubs like the police force. Stallings has only been in the position for the last few years. He's hardly an outlier. Thing is though, SI doesn't call Harry anymore because a) without Murphy Harry loses his biggest advocate in the police, and b) because as of Changes he died. When was the last time SI actually came to Harry with something "urgent, something they haven't haven't seen before... something they've been told isn't a case". Not for many years now. I think the last one was Small Favor.

Forgive my lack of knowledge of Chicago politics, I don't follow it and don't live there. But politics is a convoluted and multi-tiered game that intersects in curious and interesting ways, like 3D chess. You don't just look at the elected councillors and mayors, you also have to consider the political appointments like Judges, DA's, Chiefs of Police etc. which then must be magnified and combined with the effect of the state and federal politicians and their various appointments. It all intersects and it's a brutal and tricky world as bad as anything the Fae could imagine. So even if Chicago is a blue city, that only effects so much. And since SF there have been significant political changes in America. 

I forgot about Jury Duty, but as I said he is still too busy for his old routine, and he hasn't fully reintegrated. He hasn't yet set up his old shop yet. And I put this question to you: If Dresden had so much spare time, and really wanted to get set up again, why has he not yet?

« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 05:32:08 AM by Yuillegan »

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2020, 05:07:22 PM »
Love Hurts was the last time S.I. contacted Harry. That was one month before Changes.

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Karrin Murphy headed up Special Investigations, a post that head traditionally resulted in a couple of months bumbling and then a speed exit from the police force. Murphy hadn't bumbled-instead, she'd hired the services of Chicago's only professional wizard as a consultant.
Grave Peril, Ch. 11.

I guess they could have quit out of frustration, but that's never the impression I got. I always figured they'd quit before being transferred like that guy from TC if quitting the PD was their temperament.

Maybe Harry has opened up his office. Maybe he's setting up his personal life first. He's moving off the island, setting up a lab, maybe getting his own home, he's setting up his bank, he could be looking for where he wants an office, he could be liquidating enough diamonds to do all that, he's setting up Maggie in a new home and getting her into SMAGT. He's got a lot to do because of Changes. The kind of thing Harry is probably only going to have to do once.

And even if he doesn't start his business back up, he hasn't stopped being a warden. As long as he's a warden, it would make sense to keep in contact with S.I., as long as Stallings hasn't decided to burn him at the stake. It's part of warden training to manage relations with the police.

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Ramirez was going to cover the course on relations with mortal authorities, which made sense; Ramirez got on just fine with the cops in LA, and hadn't been shot by nearly as many law enforcement personnel as I had.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2020, 07:55:31 PM »
@Yuillegan: I think it'll be a slaughter either way. Doesn't matter where anyone goes or who they are, be it a mundane or a magical. There will be no safe places. By the time Peace Talks is over, the masquerade will break, it'll be obvious that everyone has to band together or the Outsiders will destroy the universe.
Yeah there will be clean up mode of course but there's a lot of people out there, so it'll be interesting to see global repercussions of this. Even if Chicago and the rest of the US is busy with clean up, the rest of the world is going to be reacting. I don't think the US is the only country that has an SI group. This could be where the Men in Black step in. {The comic Dog Men reveals them to exist, which is a bad place to put such a reveal because not everyone reads the comics. I only know it because I read the synopsis somewhere else. Drives me crazy it does}.
I wonder if Harry will even want to be a PI anymore.
@Bad Alias: Maybe SI will ask Murphy back?  Even if it's only in an information capacity.
I mean when the masquerade busts open, people, City Hall included will want real information and there are quite a few people who can provide that. SI will want to make sure that they are the ones who can do so instead of shadier folks.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2020, 02:12:22 AM »
If the masquerade breaks all at once instead of somewhat gradually, I think the response will be chaos instead of any sort of level headedness that would see Murphy or Harry vindicated. It'll be more like "burn the witch!" and "why have you been hiding witches from us!"

If it happens somewhat gradually, I think it's possible that they would get some measure of vindication, but not a lot. Something like the FBI asking Murphy/Dresden for help instead of the City of Chicago ever admitting they were wrong.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2020, 06:05:57 AM »
Even so, Love Hurts was still a few years ago (in universe).

Likely it was a mix of frustration/depression/horror/nervous breakdown and being unable to explain certain things. But the line you quote is pretty old now, so it's relevance might not be strong as it was. But that is just speculation on my part.

Maybe he has done all that between Skin Game and Peace Talks (considering his sudden influx of capital). But there is nothing to suggest that so far (unless I missed something). But my question was about if he had the time and had the desire, why not yet? And I don't recall at any point between Changes and Peace Talks that Dresden has set up as a PI or resumed any of his old activities. You said he had the free time and the desire, but the result is currently nada. That might change between Skin Game and Peace Talks, but so far we have nothing. So you kinda didn't answer my question.

Actually, whilst he was reintegrated as a warden he has done precious little of that. He was dead, then not dead and trying to save the world for a weekend, then confined to an island and then went on a heist. So while he might be on the books, he hasn't been very active. He hasn't contacted them and they haven't contacted him (despite the fact that officially he is alive again). I am not necessarily saying Stallings has changed his opinion on Dresden (although the whole being-dead-then-coming-back might have made him more suspicious). I do get that it is part of a normal warden's job to work with mortal law enforcement, especially locally. But Harry is the furthest thing from a normal warden. Given that, I think it is less than likely they will have the spooky PI-Police relationship they had previously.

And I agree - depending on how quickly and how shockingly the masquerade breaks will color the response to Dresden and the supernatural. Just look how crazy people are right now, and how the events of 9/11 changed things. From the blurb of Battle Grounds I think should the masquerade fall in that book, I think it will be shocking and instant kind. However, I also wonder if Butcher will do the same as in the real world and have people just up and not believe what's happening in front of them. Probably a mixture - but when?

123Chikadee - Not 100% that the masquerade will fully fall in Battle Grounds (although that's the implication from the blurb), and as I said above if it does it will be fast and furious but potentially also have some people just straight up pull the wool over their eyes. So wouldn't be so sure everyone will unite together. People rarely do that as it is.

In fact, SI isn't the only mortal authority aware of the supernatural in the US - you even notice their existence in Dog Men. The Library of Congress (which has the "Men in Black" i.e. sort of secret service agency working with/ for it) is aware, and it is hinted they have been covering up the supernatural (such as making the tape of Harry and Murphy fighting the Loup-Garou disappear). Mostly they put pressure on to hush the situation up.

Well, Bad Alias think Harry will still want his old job. I am not so sure.

But I highly doubt SI will want Murphy back. Very rare in police circles, especially when someone leaves under a cloud. And if the masquerade falls but there is still a semblance of government (and Murphy is still alive, and wants to help/return to SI) whose to say she would work with them? She is on the radar of the Library of Congress - maybe they would want her working at a Federal level. I expect to see Agent Tilly working there when we finally encounter them.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2020, 02:45:59 AM »
And I put this question to you: If Dresden had so much spare time, and really wanted to get set up again, why has he not yet?
I never said Harry had enough spare time. I said he will have the spare time, so the question is a bit of a straw-man. I also haven't really said he has the desire (other than it seems to fit his character to return to old habits). I said it would make sense because he would have the time, remain a warden, and it's a good way of collecting information/combating his scary image.

[1]And I don't recall at any point between Changes and Peace Talks that Dresden has set up as a PI or resumed any of his old activities. (emphasis added)...

[2]...So while he might be on the books, he hasn't been very active. He hasn't contacted them and they haven't contacted him (despite the fact that officially he is alive again).

[3.1]...But Harry is the furthest thing from a normal warden. [3.2]Given that, I think it is less than likely they will have the spooky PI-Police relationship they had previously.

[4]... From the blurb of Battle Grounds I think should the masquerade fall in that book, I think it will be shocking and instant kind. However, I also wonder if Butcher will do the same as in the real world and have people just up and not believe what's happening in front of them. Probably a mixture - but when?

[5]...In fact, SI isn't the only mortal authority aware of the supernatural in the US - you even notice their existence in Dog Men. The Library of Congress (which has the "Men in Black" i.e. sort of secret service agency working with/ for it) is aware, and it is hinted they have been covering up the supernatural (such as making the tape of Harry and Murphy fighting the Loup-Garou disappear). Mostly they put pressure on to hush the situation up.

[6]...But I highly doubt SI will want Murphy back. Very rare in police circles, especially when someone leaves under a cloud.
1. He went to Burger King, meets people at Mac's, started keeping Mac's beer at home and refrigerated. (Side note: Is it legal for Mac to distribute his beer/ale/etc.? It just recently became legal for breweries that serve their brews to also sale them like a store here in Texas). He sticks his nose in any supernatural business that shows up whenever he's around even when most people would say he is not supposed to be doing that. So much so that he was manipulated into it. The point is that he has resumed some of his old activities.

2. He was definitely contacted by Ramirez who knew just where to find him. He definitely handled a young practitioner who was in danger of going warlock. He's also "protect[ed] mortals in [his] area [and been] vigilant against supernatural threats in [his] region." Has he done the best job of that? Irrelevant as you maintain that he was never a very good warden. Harry never seemed to be in much contact with the wardens.

3.1. Acknowledged. 3.2 I suggested that he should maintain a relationship with S.I. I specifically said he should do something like let them know he doesn't need to be paid.

4. I've never really paid any attention to the book blurbs. I'm not sure if I've read any of them other than SF, PT, and BG. I'm not sure how much truth in advertising there is there. But Jim's indicated the masquerade is definitely going to end.

5. I got the impression that the feds from Dog Men were not the feds previously brought up by Jim who were hostile to the supernatural. The comics are not very good, in my opinion, so I only check them out from the library and read them once because I'm a completionist.

6. Agreed, but I would note that they do often hire them back as consultants who make a lot more money for a lot less work. I've known a few people who were fired only to be hired back as consultant who charged exorbitant rates.

Offline AClone

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2020, 04:20:51 AM »
Just to plug what has become a very long discussion...

A. Jim has said that Harry will go back to being a PI again. “He needs something to do when he’s not Wizarding”.

B. I think the main reason Carlos was placed in charge of Security in what should be Harry’s area of responsibility Was that’s Harry currently has the White Council crapping their collective pants. Not just the Winter Knight thing, or being in control of Demonreach, but the whole “coming back from the dead” thing. The last guy to pull that trick was an ongoing problem—and they don’t know yet about Harry’s “special “code blue” circumstances.

As Thomas said, adding Harry to the security team, rather than placing him in charge of it, let’s them keep an eye on him. Because everyone on the Senior Council had to know that Harry was the first person Carlos would ask.

Harry has been busy rebuilding his life, and bonding with Maggie. I’m guessing that he hasn’t hurried into getting lots of things done while she is out of school—and staying with him—over the summer. Such as reporting in person to Edinburgh.

I’m also taking a wild guess that a substantial amount of the Senior Council mistrust is attenuated by the end of Battle Ground.

For whoever was counting potential deaths, remember that the “younger” Wardens, whom Harry mostly worked with and helped train, constitute somewhere around 240 of the 300 Warden roster figure we last had. I’m guessing that group gets hit hard in Battle Ground. Lots of people that Harry knows and cares about off page.

Given the nature of the book, the FBI (and Tilly) will be involved around. Since SI was bullied away from Harry by City administration, perhaps that will be Harry’s new contact level. Either that, or Marcone decided he’s tired of bearing such a big part of the bill for protecting Chicago from supernatural threats, and leans on those same administrators to open up the SI spigot again.

Since Butters character arc was mentioned, I’ll point out that not only was his story arc capped by his choice to go out and sacrifice himself—which he had never done before—his possession of the Sword as it currently is expressed isn’t a matter of “not being able to have sword fights”. The Swords exist to defeat evil, not to fence with it.

BTW—Did anyone else notice that Butters choice to sacrifice himself even just as a stall tactic actually would have worked? By the time Nick finished killing Butters and getting his Squires heads back together, Molly would have had boots on the grind.

I’m also not sure just how long Butters will bear that Sword. But that’s another story.

Back on topic...as far as Irwin and Connie are concerned, I’m not sure whether or not they’ll be on Chicago in July, when school starts at the end of August. However, the fact that they’re moving into a staff apartment on campus at least makes that possible.

I’m wondering—assuming the two lovebirds are in Chicago in July when a Titan and her “army” show up—if they’re at enough risk that River Shoulders hears about it...and Shows Up. Jim has talked about all of the action figures he has on the shelf he hasn’t really had a chance to take down and play with yet. Along with the whole Senior Council, I kinda hope that River Shoulders would be another one.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2020, 06:22:50 AM »
I never said Harry had enough spare time. I said he will have the spare time, so the question is a bit of a straw-man. I also haven't really said he has the desire (other than it seems to fit his character to return to old habits). I said it would make sense because he would have the time, remain a warden, and it's a good way of collecting information/combating his scary image.
My apologies, perhaps I misunderstood you when you said:
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He's got enough free time to investigate and solve a murder case that isn't his responsibility and plan a trip to the zoo between SG and PT.
Which I took to mean past tense. Anyway - it doesn't matter much either way. I think we can just agree to disagree on the issue.

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1. He went to Burger King, meets people at Mac's, started keeping Mac's beer at home and refrigerated. (Side note: Is it legal for Mac to distribute his beer/ale/etc.? It just recently became legal for breweries that serve their brews to also sale them like a store here in Texas). He sticks his nose in any supernatural business that shows up whenever he's around even when most people would say he is not supposed to be doing that. So much so that he was manipulated into it. The point is that he has resumed some of his old activities.
It is legal in some places. But no idea on Chicago. My mistake, by activities I meant his old jobs. Not really his hobbies/routines (BK, drinking etc). I suppose the argument could be made that he has been doing his job of warden in terms of sticking his knows in others business...but as only some of that was official White Council stuff I am not sure it counts. And his PI license has not yet (as far as I am aware) been renewed since his death.

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2. He was definitely contacted by Ramirez who knew just where to find him. He definitely handled a young practitioner who was in danger of going warlock. He's also "protect[ed] mortals in [his] area [and been] vigilant against supernatural threats in [his] region." Has he done the best job of that? Irrelevant as you maintain that he was never a very good warden. Harry never seemed to be in much contact with the wardens.
If you are referring to his contact in the first chapter of Peace Talks...well that's hardly fair as the book isn't out yet. Well, I actually I maintain he was a poor commander and leader. Not necessarily a bad warden though. They are different skills/roles and some are more suited one way or another. I don't hold it against Harry, but he probably needs some advice/training himself.

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3.1. Acknowledged. 3.2 I suggested that he should maintain a relationship with S.I. I specifically said he should do something like let them know he doesn't need to be paid.
Forgive me, but I can't find where you said that. So I am a tad confused. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think it is the worst idea for Harry to maintain a good relationship with local law enforcement (specifically SI). But I wouldn't recommend he helps them with the local weird death unless he has the time. Mostly, he should be worrying about how to stop the Black Council and Nemesis etc.

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4. I've never really paid any attention to the book blurbs. I'm not sure if I've read any of them other than SF, PT, and BG. I'm not sure how much truth in advertising there is there. But Jim's indicated the masquerade is definitely going to end.
Then allow me to assist you.
(click to show/hide)
I hope that makes my point clear. I don't put it past the marketing to hype it up. But at the same time...the shoe fits.

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5. I got the impression that the feds from Dog Men were not the feds previously brought up by Jim who were hostile to the supernatural. The comics are not very good, in my opinion, so I only check them out from the library and read them once because I'm a completionist.
On my reading they were the "Men In Black" that represent the agents of the Library of Congress. I don't imagine there are too many federal groups that are aware (as an organization) of the supernatural world. And they were rather hostile in that comic. I don't know why but I feel they are tied to the Archive, but I can't remember why that sticks in my brain.

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6. Agreed, but I would note that they do often hire them back as consultants who make a lot more money for a lot less work. I've known a few people who were fired only to be hired back as consultant who charged exorbitant rates.
Absolutely. What a world we live in. I don't normally advocate for it, especially when the person in question left in a various level of disgrace. Seems corrupt. But occasionally, some people just had a bad run and deserve a second chance. But I wouldn't say that was the majority.



Offline Yuillegan

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Re: "Job placement" microfiction
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2020, 07:38:44 AM »
Nothing wrong with a long discussion, healthy debate is how good ideas are formed. But if they tire you - the option of creating new threads is always open. :)

AClone - where does Jim say that? I cannot find the WOJ in question. Be interesting to know how old that quote is.

A very good possibility that is why Carlos was chosen. I don't disagree with the reasons. My contention is that it wouldn't have been the case necessarily had Changes not gone the way it did.

There are few organizations that would allow you to blatantly not report in and not fire you. Looking after his daughter (which they supposedly have little to no knowledge of) wouldn't count (and Harry wouldn't disclose the existence of Maggie to them). That said, being all so old they might allow longer stretches of time. And they do have a lack of wardens and experienced combat wizards so he is probably too valuable to lose, generally speaking.

The Senior Council have always mistrusted Harry - and seemingly for good reason (if the Morgan microfiction is anything to go by). I don't expect that to change. It may well be vindicated or resolved in Battle Ground.

The body count will likely include his trainees. But considering his reaction in the Christmas Eve microfiction, I would say a fair few are familiar faces too.

Why do you think Tilly will be back in this book (Peace Talks)? Not that I disagree necessarily, but I am curious to hear you're theory. What about this book makes it more likely? I do suspect he will help with fighting the supernatural eventually. Not so sure that SI will have the same use.

I am sure that no matter the role, they will be present in either Peace Talks and/or Battle Ground. River Shoulders may well also make an appearance. I remember that quote about the action figures. There are some characters (particularly Langtry, Rashid and Cristos) that I would like to see take the field.