I don't recall... did we know before this that Connie is(click to show/hide)
Characters exist to serve the story. This story is getting increasingly violent and deadly and horrifying. The goofy PI Wizard novels are gone and are slowly being replaced with a Warrior-Wizard in the midst of a deadly conflict between the epic powers of the universe. Some will dislike that, some will love it. But that's how it was always going to go. Which means that a lot of the cast will get killed off eventually. It will break our hearts, develop the remaining characters and push the story along, and it will make room for new characters. Just the way of things.
So, looks like Irwin & Connie are going to be on the bench as local allies, and / or figure into the Maggie Jr. spinoffs...With school starting in August, I was thinking that it would be hurrying things for them to manage to be in Chicago by July, in time for Peace Talks/Battle Ground. This seems more like a convenient setup for the Maggie stories.
Yeah, it was that off beat PI/Wizard story line that attracted me to Dresden in the first place. I too lament that the direction it is headed seems to be the more standard fantasy route..
The ones that are still around, probably. Apparently according to a bizarre WOJ some of the Alphas just wrote of their experiences as drug induced delusions in college. Which to me sounds insane.
I suspect Will and Georgia might bite the dust. They are long-time characters with enough emotional value to be worth killing off, without being detrimental to Harry's future or messing up the series. Technically no character is safe but you can always work out who probably won't go. I don't think Andi will necessarily - unless Jim wants to make Butters' story darker.
In love but seemingly not burning at touch having something to do maybe with the fact that neither are fully human.Jim has said that power differences in the relationship could cause that. I think he said that in relation to Irwin and Connie specifically, but I don't recall it well enough to say for sure.
Apparently according to a bizarre WOJ some of the Alphas just wrote of their experiences as drug induced delusions in college. Which to me sounds insane.Unless they were stoned the whole time anyway. In that WoJ, he also said one of them ended up in a mental institution. That one was probably a little too honest and not at all insane.
And it would hardly be unlike Jim to include a redemptive arc for even someone like Rudolph in the middle of what Battle Ground appears to be. Making even a worm a sympathetic character.Rudolph admitting the error of his ways would be a good way to show the masquerade breaking or slipping and could be used to redeem him enough to make some readers a little sympathetic if he died.
I get to be in Lara’s territory, not my father’s.I think I found this to be the most interesting tidbit. We don't really know much about the structure of the White Court, but now we know that House Raith at least has territories. It may be that individuals in the Court have territories and it isn't limited to one house. I think that's likely, but we don't know that.
That St. Mark's is applying for Accorded Neutral Ground status was also interesting. Why wouldn't they already have it--unless Jim is "up to something"?
I think I found this to be the most interesting tidbit. We don't really know much about the structure of the White Court, but now we know that House Raith at least has territories. It may be that individuals in the Court have territories and it isn't limited to one house. I think that's likely, but we don't know that.Apex predators. Territorial and possessive.
Is she G33k, where did it say that?
g33k, what?
I think you're misreading that line. She is referring to being in Lara's territory, not her Father's. She isn't going to refer to her Father as "Count Barrrowill" or whatever.
@Avernite: Well we do have to consider that Harry was repeatedly impressed with both River Shoulders' and Irwin's intelligence. It's implied that the Forest People have superhuman intelligence...
Yeah, it was that off beat PI/Wizard story line that attracted me to Dresden in the first place. I too lament that the direction it is headed seems to be the more standard fantasy route..
I'm actually enjoying the more fantastical elements, supernatural nations and power becoming greater.
As for academic supernatural intellectualss I always thought that'd be the Alpha's role.
I’m not sure that you see characters the same way as Jim does. As far as long time characters being effectively disposable and readily replaced by newcomers, remember what Jim has repeatedly said about being “too lazy” to write up new characters. At this stage of the series, there isn’t really time to fully develop new characters.
Yes, in the Christmas Story short, Harry was clearly feeling the guilt of people he knew being dead. Just remember, he felt the same way when Kirby died—whom we had barely seen on page. That death toll could include people as peripheral as Rawlins—or Mrs. Spunkelcrief. Shoot, he’d probably feel guilty if people like Hendricks or even Rudolph died—because he knew them as real people.
And it would hardly be unlike Jim to include a redemptive arc for even someone like Rudolph in the middle of what Battle Ground appears to be. Making even a worm a sympathetic character.
As far as anyone being “safe” I’m not sure there is such a thing. It wouldn’t surprise me to find that Jim diced out the fates of all of the tertiary characters for a book like BG. I can just see him: “Crap, Andi! Why’d you have to go and roll an eighteen here! That’s a critical failure!”
Or a three, of course. Whatever scale he’s using.
I will say that there is one absence from the Christmas Story scene that seems ominous to me. And no, not just because the older Carpenter kids didn’t make it back from college or on leave for Christmas. But that’s for that thread, so I’ll leave that alone.
Oh, if you’re worried about the Wizard/gumshoe thing, Harry still has a few books left to get back to that gig. It’ll just be on a bigger scale. And part of me is wondering if Murphy will get her PI license. Guess we’ll see.
I am not sure it would be appropriate for Harry to return to his old gig.I don't know. I think it's a great way for a warden to operate. I'm not sure if there's a better way, given the universe as established, for a warden to find out what's going on. Harry's been wardening for about 15 years because he set himself up as a wizard p.i. He should also let S.I know he doesn't need any money if they come up against something they can't handle themselves.
I don't know. I think it's a great way for a warden to operate. I'm not sure if there's a better way, given the universe as established, for a warden to find out what's going on. Harry's been wardening for about 15 years because he set himself up as a wizard p.i. He should also let S.I know he doesn't need any money if they come up against something they can't handle themselves.
I must admit though, Skin Game and Ghost Story were unfortunately not very strong novels as compared to much of the series and I am excited about Peace Talks and Battle Grounds getting Harry back in the world.
But why would Harry's junior be managing security AND giving him orders? It may have been the case that he initially didn't take the job, but Harry hasn't been active in the White Council for years. And things have been happening with increasing frequency and intensity. There are stronger and more experienced Wardens than Ramirez. The only reason to make Carlos the head of security would be if they wanted the security to be weaker and/or wanted a patsy. Which may well be the case of course.
That's interesting. I also thought Ghost Story was a let-down in many aspects, however Skin Game was, IMHO, fantastic in about everything it did. Fascinating how people view such things so completely differently.
I think ghost story is underestimated purely because Harry does not set enough buildings to fire. It has Lea and she was wonderfull.
I liked it as well, it also sets up how Harry's relationship with Mab is going to go.And it has a lot of world building. It was a very important book for all kinds of discussions here.
I am not saying any of the books are not good, or relevant for the story or even needed, just that I am not a fan, for different reasons. One of those reasons is that I did not find GS or CD as entertaining as SG.Feel free not to share my opinion. I won't be offended.
And morriswalters, the books have shown many times that you can be a hero without a sword. SG only says that sometimes a sword is a very useful and cool thing. An idea that comes from long before Jim (for example, in Arthurian legends). And of course, I personally love light sabers.
But why would Harry's junior be managing security AND giving him orders?How is the Western Regional Commander the junior of the Eastern Regional Commander? Harry was appointed as a regional commander when he got his cloak. Ramirez got the job as the "other regional commander in America" sometime after the second to last chapter of Dead Beat. Carlos has been a warden longer. Carlos probably has more points under any system based on superiors' evaluations. Harry is the Warden as opposed to a warden, but the Council, maybe even Senior Council, seems to be largely in the dark on that. So it's a toss up as to who is senior under whatever tie breaker the Council uses.
Tell me that the Council doesn’t want me to be our emissary.”That's why Carlos is in charge instead of Harry. 1. Harry would be a terrible choice because there's bad blood between him and just about everyone else, and Harry's a hot head. 2. If anyone was worried about offending Harry by putting someone else in charge of something in his territory, using Carlos, the person Harry asked to be in charge of security at the last official Council activity in Chicago, and the excuse that Harry is in a unique position to serve as the liaison to Winter would be enough to satisfy the protocol droids.
Ramirez blinked. “Wait, what? Oh . . . oh God, no, Harry. I mean . . . no. Just no.”
...
Ramirez cleared his throat before continuing. “But they will expect you to be the Council’s liaison with Winter, if needed, and to provide security for the Senior Council members in attendance.
Being a part-time artist and Summer Knight is a long way from Harry. Harry Dresden, who actively gets involved in every struggle him can stumble into. Who starts and ends wars, who fights duels, who storms the enemy strongholds and assassinates key people and otherwise causes chaos and destruction (in the name of saving the world from worse).Being a part-time artist takes up way more time than one weekend a year.
I can't remember the last time Harry has had any free time (except for a bite at BK or IHOP).During the 363 days out of the year he isn't having the worst weekend of the year?
S.I. is both small and chronically, critically underfunded. Without Murphy to advocate for it and protect it I am sure it's more of a political exile than ever. Even before Murphy left they were being clamped down on and gutted. She's been gone a few years now and I doubt it does very much at all.Stallings was said to be quite competent, so I'm not so sure it's going to be worse off without Murphy. Murphy hadn't been the one fighting turf wars since Proven Guilty. Honestly, S.I. might be better off. Even accepting your premise, that doesn't mean they aren't going to get all the weird cases in search of a scape goat dumped in their lap anyway. It's been around in one form or another for at least 40 years. It's still going to be a valuable source of information.
What's the BSF? Did you Brighter Future Society?Yes. I don't think all the other parties we see meeting in GS are just going to quit fighting the good fight if Marcone cuts ties with their "Chicago Alliance." Maybe they loose out on Castle Dresden, but Harry doesn't need that. But if the BFS/Chicago Alliance/whatever does collapse and go away, that's a reason why Harry should re-open his office, not a reason that he shouldn't.
protect mortals in this area. To be vigilant against supernatural threats in your region.Luccio describing (some of) the duties of a warden, Dead Beat, Ch. 31.
Ghost Story was padding. It introduced nothing that could have not be done in Cold Days, without adding more than a chapter or so. Cold Days sets up everything going forward. The Outsiders, the forever war at the Gates and the final trilogy. And Jim had been pushing it since at least Proven Guilty.I basically agree except I think you need more than one chapter to cover the points from Ghost Story. I think it's fine for Butters to end up a Knight, but I have trouble with his and Murphy's inverse faith in Harry plot arcs over GS to SG and Butters ending up as the Knight of Faith after his repeated doubting Thomas routines.
Skin Games is a great book that is one third fluff, dedicated to the idea that to be a hero you need a sword. And that the writer can push something that on it's face is ridiculous, and that fan boys will buy it. And it does a disservice to Butters character arc in the series.
To whoever I just insulted I apologize, without surrendering the point. Having said that, the other two thirds is a pretty rousing heist plot with a very nice twist.
How is the Western Regional Commander the junior of the Eastern Regional Commander? Harry was appointed as a regional commander when he got his cloak. Ramirez got the job as the "other regional commander in America" sometime after the second to last chapter of Dead Beat. Carlos has been a warden longer. Carlos probably has more points under any system based on superiors' evaluations. Harry is the Warden as opposed to a warden, but the Council, maybe even Senior Council, seems to be largely in the dark on that. So it's a toss up as to who is senior under whatever tie breaker the Council uses.
I basically agree except I think you need more than one chapter to cover the points from Ghost Story. I think it's fine for Butters to end up a Knight, but I have trouble with his and Murphy's inverse faith in Harry plot arcs over GS to SG and Butters ending up as the Knight of Faith after his repeated doubting Thomas routines.
Everything we've seen so far indicates that Harry's going to be reinstated as the regional commander located in Chicago. Also, it's stated in the text that no one was willing to step into that position. I think it was in Cold Case (just before Ramirez tells Molly he specifically rejected the job). Ramirez hasn't taken over Harry's job. He has been given the specific task of security for the White Council during the summit.
...
S.I. may or may not be relevant for the rest of the series, but if you were the warden of/in a major metropolitan area, and you were on speaking terms with a division of the police force that was assigned all the weird stuff, why wouldn't you talk to them about keeping you in the loop? I doubt S.I. is too worried about the legalities of killing, how did Butters put it, "humanoid but definitely not human" problems. Most cops who know about the supernatural would probably be happy to let Harry deal with any warlocks too. You remember what old Jack Burton says, "cops got better things to do than get killed."
I don't think the point is that one needs a sword to be a hero. I do think that one does need the power to affect the outcome of events to be a hero if the end result is to be anything other than having "died heroically" on a tombstone.
The Butters short story does set the messaging a bit straighter than just "lightsaber, pwned", too. But he was already trying to do hero stuff before the sword came to him, it's just that he was largely out of his league against the serious threats.
As for SI, I'm not too sure where they're going to stand on supernatural civilian vigilantes now that Harry is back in town. It probably depends how humanoid the creatures in question are, and exactly how clued the SI cops are. I don't get the impression Stallings knows as much as Rawlins, let alone on par with Murphy when she was in charge. Although the FBI building being gutted and the Fomor acting more openly probably should have forced Stallings to learn more than he knew as of Changes & Aftermath. I wouldn't count on SI being OK with exterminating things like whampires or technically-human turtlenecks, though. And executing a warlock was still something Murphy was really bothered by as of PG - I really wouldn't count on most of the rest of SI looking the other way for that.
Whatever importance swords had in the story is history. Butters can't have sword fights. His sword cut Nic's in half, something that no other Knight had done to this point. So unless Nic gets a light sabre he going to have to dance with a more modern weapon. This is my primary beef.
Butter's heroism was established in the museum when he attacked a dangerous wizard with his bare hands, despite his fear. The light sabre doesn't make him more heroic, it simply makes him a 40 plus male with a plasma cutter. And one with such bad vision that Jim uses it as a plot device in a short story.
I also realize that I am an endangered minority on this point so I'll let this be my last word on the subject.
[1]He must have declined the Council trying to get him to manage both regions at once.1. That makes sense. Luccio mentions three North American regional commanders that Harry would have to coordinate with. From the end of DB when Morgan has his conversation with Harry up to the most recent info we have, it appears that number was never higher than two.
...[2]I don't get the impression Stallings knows as much as Rawlins, let alone on par with Murphy when she was in charge. ... [3]And executing a warlock was still something Murphy was really bothered by as of PG - I really wouldn't count on most of the rest of SI looking the other way for that.
Butters can't have sword fights. ...I think we are probably in agreement on 80 to 90% of the stuff about Butters. Much closer to 100% on the quoted portion.
Butter's heroism was established in the museum when he attacked a dangerous wizard with his bare hands, despite his fear. The light sabre doesn't make him more heroic, it simply makes him a 40 plus male with a plasma cutter. And one with such bad vision that Jim uses it as a plot device in a short story.
I also realize that I am an endangered minority on this point so I'll let this be my last word on the subject.
I think we are probably in agreement on 80 to 90% of the stuff about Butters. Much closer to 100% on the quoted portion.
How is the Western Regional Commander the junior of the Eastern Regional Commander? Harry was appointed as a regional commander when he got his cloak. Ramirez got the job as the "other regional commander in America" sometime after the second to last chapter of Dead Beat. Carlos has been a warden longer. Carlos probably has more points under any system based on superiors' evaluations.Not what I meant. Carlos isn't Harry's junior perhaps in the White Council wardens (although I would point out that amoungst Wizards, and most of the supernatural community, seniority and age go hand in hand). Harry is the more experienced Wizard, and even amongst wardens of the same rank there is always unofficial ranking, which like most jobs tends to go to the most experienced and/or most respected person. Langtry likes Ramirez, but I think both he and harry hardly rank compared to what remains of the old guard. Beyond that though is the fact Harry is the more powerful person - not just magically but politically and personally. He commands a great deal of respect amongst the various powers, and represents a number of powerful individuals (and their "organizations"). Carlos by comparison is a well-liked, unofficial poster boy for the younger wardens. It doesn't even come close. It will be interesting to see how the Council treats him now that he is both Winter Knight, and the Warden of Demonreach. Carlos might have tacit authority, but commanding Harry would be like being the captain of a local men's basketball team when Labron James joins the team. The head of the club might have made you the captain, but leadership and power are more tenuous than titles would like them to be.
Harry is the Warden as opposed to a warden, but the Council, maybe even Senior Council, seems to be largely in the dark on that. So it's a toss up as to who is senior under whatever tie breaker the Council uses.I suspect that the fact that almost only the Senior Council know about the Warden position with any depth is that that island and it's purpose were covered up. The power of the position lead to the creation of the wardens (that much is implied), but the original role seems to be far more intense and important than the current emulation. If that position is reintegrated fully...who knows. Considering the first Warden (and warden) was the Original Merlin (Emrys), I suspect that it's likely a former Senior Council role that was done away with. But I am just guessing here.
That's why Carlos is in charge instead of Harry.
1. Harry would be a terrible choice because there's bad blood between him and just about everyone else, and Harry's a hot head.Yes he is. I am not saying that Harry should be the head of security in this situation. But had Harry not died and come back, I think that assuming the Peace Talks were still held in Chicago I believe that security of the talks would have been under Harry's purview (being that he was the Eastern regional commander). I agree that Harry's particular position and tendencies make him a bad candidate but it's no less true that had his tenure not been interrupted he would have been the one in charge.
2. If anyone was worried about offending Harry by putting someone else in charge of something in his territory, using Carlos, the person Harry asked to be in charge of security at the last official Council activity in Chicago, and the excuse that Harry is in a unique position to serve as the liaison to Winter would be enough to satisfy the protocol droids.I think he used Carlos because he himself was being an advocate for the person on trial. Kinda hard to be impartial... I honestly don't think anyone would care about offending Harry, before or after his death (assuming he didn't want to kill them after - he has a pretty high chance of killing his enemies after all). This will be Harry's first official Council event since his death if I'm not mistaken, he hasn't been fully reintegrated. Not to mention his enormous conflict of interest, as he is now the Winter Knight. The fact they haven't revoked his membership is very interesting. I suspect that they will ask him to be a spy in Winter, and an advocate for them.
Former Captain of the Wardens, Senior Council Member Blackstaff McCoy, is going to be on the ground there, so I don't think the SC is going to be to worried about the young hotheads going off half cocked. It also pays to note that Carlos is one of the oldest wardens, not counting any who may or may not have been pulled out of retirement, because almost all of the active wardens were killed off in Dead Beat. At this point, the old guard can't be more than 50 or so. Probably less. I want to say the number of wardens was around 300 last time the number came up, but I'm not sure.I suspect that they are including Harry only because A) it is happening in Chicago, B) It's Mab's talks and C) McCoy and the Gatekeeper would definitely have requested his inclusion. Carlos is one of the oldest warden's by mode, but he is still young. There are probably still at least 50 or 60 old guard above him. So he is hardly one of the oldest when he isn't even in the top 20 oldest out of maybe 200-300 wardens. He doesn't even make top 50.
Being a part-time artist takes up way more time than one weekend a year.If you're going off that old stick about each book being "Harry Dresden's worst weekend of the year", I would rethink your position. That was about the how each book was set-up, and was Jim's attitude in the early series. But it hardly counts for Harry's life in the later series, much of which is not shown in the books. From teaching Molly to training wardens before Changes, and afterwards he was Dead for several months, then in physical rehab/Winter Knight training for several more, then Winter Knight missions and then spends most of his time on Demonreach under effectively house arrest only to then go on a heist in the Greek Underworld for the literal Holy Grail. You tell me where his free time is.
During the 363 days out of the year he isn't having the worst weekend of the year?
Stallings was said to be quite competent, so I'm not so sure it's going to be worse off without Murphy. Murphy hadn't been the one fighting turf wars since Proven Guilty. Honestly, S.I. might be better off. Even accepting your premise, that doesn't mean they aren't going to get all the weird cases in search of a scape goat dumped in their lap anyway. It's been around in one form or another for at least 40 years. It's still going to be a valuable source of information.They might still get the weird cases, but I am sure they won't be investigated thoroughly like they were when Murphy was in-charge. They are basically the clean up crew, "Hey man see that weird burnt skeleton that has fangs and isn't human but is human sized? Please make that look more like a regular murder case" "No worries Chief, probably just a weird gang thing or terrorists". No weirdness to see here!
All that said, that response is a dodge of my question of if you were a warden in a city of millions, would you want S.I. to keep you in the loop? I ask that question because the answer is an obvious "yes." Harry doesn't have to keep his p.i. business to be kept in the loop, but he does have to offer something of value in return.But the thing is - Harry hasn't been a warden in Chicago since Changes, and really he wasn't doing much warden stuff in that book. And now that he is back, I don't think he'll have much time to go back to his old routine. So the question you ask is somewhat redundant. Besides, as I said before he can get information on the bigger problems he deals with from better sources like, I don't know, Mab and Kringle? You see where I am going here? He is moving into the majors now - so having his old little league team come and support him (especially when there are so few of the original crew from those days still there) is kinda ridiculous. Not to mention if the White Council falls there won't be anyone doing any wardening at all, and so presumably the masquerade will have fallen or be falling and all hell will be breaking loose. How much time will Dresden have then?
Yes. I don't think all the other parties we see meeting in GS are just going to quit fighting the good fight if Marcone cuts ties with their "Chicago Alliance." Maybe they loose out on Castle Dresden, but Harry doesn't need that. But if the BFS/Chicago Alliance/whatever does collapse and go away, that's a reason why Harry should re-open his office, not a reason that he shouldn't.
I could see Harry not reopening his business. I just think it would be a really dumb move from an in universe perspective. It's a good way to have information show up on your door step. It's also a good way to launder his diamond money, but I doubt that will even come up in the books. He may or may not need more money than the money from the diamonds and his warden pay depending on how much he can get for the diamonds and a bunch of other factors we have little to no information on. As such, I'd want a good in universe explanation of why he's not doing it. (Just as a side note, the last in text job Harry had as Harry Dresden, P.I. was one month before Changes).
True enough, it would depend on how humanoid the creatures were. But it could also go the other way i.e. SI might retreat deeper into disbelief and ignorance rather than working harder to find out the truth. Aside from it getting the previous heads of SI fired and police from other units chucked into exile, the supernatural tends to make mortals retreat into delusion (which is really just an allegory for anything people don't understand well). It wouldn't surprise me for SI to work harder at making things look more normal as a response, because confronting the awful truth that there may be a big hidden world - a demimonde - out there would be too terrifying for most of them to contemplate. To some extent, the mortals already do that. Even the White Council when faced with an invisible new threat (the "black council") refused to acknowledge the conspiracy. There is a lot of precedent that says that SI might bury their heads. But even if they did look into it more, likely they would be shut down or Stallings fired, unless they did it very quietly. My guess is they just do their best not to rock the boat.
Per the conversation with Morgan about the job at the end of DB, Ramirez is also a regional commander, responsible for the west coast. He must have declined the Council trying to get him to manage both regions at once.
As for SI, I'm not too sure where they're going to stand on supernatural civilian vigilantes now that Harry is back in town. It probably depends how humanoid the creatures in question are, and exactly how clued the SI cops are. I don't get the impression Stallings knows as much as Rawlins, let alone on par with Murphy when she was in charge. Although the FBI building being gutted and the Fomor acting more openly probably should have forced Stallings to learn more than he knew as of Changes & Aftermath. I wouldn't count on SI being OK with exterminating things like whampires or technically-human turtlenecks, though. And executing a warlock was still something Murphy was really bothered by as of PG - I really wouldn't count on most of the rest of SI looking the other way for that.
Not what I meant. Carlos isn't Harry's junior perhaps in the White Council wardens (although I would point out that amoungst Wizards, and most of the supernatural community, seniority and age go hand in hand). Harry is the more experienced Wizard, and even amongst wardens of the same rank there is always unofficial ranking, which like most jobs tends to go to the most experienced and/or most respected person. Langtry likes Ramirez, but I think both he and harry hardly rank compared to what remains of the old guard. Beyond that though is the fact Harry is the more powerful person - not just magically but politically and personally. He commands a great deal of respect amongst the various powers, and represents a number of powerful individuals (and their "organizations"). Carlos by comparison is a well-liked, unofficial poster boy for the younger wardens. It doesn't even come close. It will be interesting to see how the Council treats him now that he is both Winter Knight, and the Warden of Demonreach. Carlos might have tacit authority, but commanding Harry would be like being the captain of a local men's basketball team when Labron James joins the team. The head of the club might have made you the captain, but leadership and power are more tenuous than titles would like them to be.
Not what I meant. Carlos isn't Harry's junior ...Okay. I still think Carlos would be picked, over Harry, for the same reasons as I said earlier. I also don't think anyone would be worried about offending Harry. Carlos is also picked over Harry for the same reason Carlos was picked over Eb. There was a better use for Eb.
it's no less true that had his tenure not been interrupted he would have been the one in charge.I'm not sure that's the case. Especially if he was still the Winter Knight in that hypothetical.
You tell me where his free time is.He's got enough free time to investigate and solve a murder case that isn't his responsibility and plan a trip to the zoo between SG and PT.
[1]But the thing is - Harry hasn't been a warden in Chicago since Changes, and really he wasn't doing much warden stuff in that book. And now that he is back, I don't think he'll have much time to go back to his old routine. So the question you ask is somewhat redundant. [2]Besides, as I said before he can get information on the bigger problems he deals with from better sources like, I don't know, Mab and Kringle? You see where I am going here? [3]He is moving into the majors now - so having his old little league team come and support him (especially when there are so few of the original crew from those days still there) is kinda ridiculous. [4]Not to mention if the White Council falls there won't be anyone doing any wardening at all, and so presumably the masquerade will have fallen or be falling and all hell will be breaking loose. How much time will Dresden have then?1. Okay. This doesn't answer my question, but it shows me why you didn't answer it, which is better. If Harry stops being a warden and is always busy with a global crisis, then I can see him not keeping up with S.I. I don't think he will always be dealing with a global crisis though because that's basically Jim saying that there's a bunch of interesting stuff happening in Harry's life, but I'm not going to talk about it. Maybe he will completely change the format of the books to where they take place over longer periods of time, but I don't think so. The closest we've gotten to that was CD where the book literally takes place over a few months.
But at that point unless everything calms down Harry will be too busy saving the world to go back to being his old self. The world will need Harry Dresden the superhero more than Harry Dresden the PI.When he's saving the world, he still needs information to do it. He got help from the "boats, boats, boats" guy in CD. Harry's still going to need information. He's still going to need to figure things out.
whose to say that the current version of SI would be as helpful as the old one (if not antagonistic).Whose to say they won't be more helpful? My point is I don't see why they would be unwilling to exchange information with Harry. The only reason Karrin lasted as long as she did in S.I. was because she had Harry's help. I could see Harry not needing their help in any of the books from here on out and Jim never mentioning them again. I don't think it's likely, especially the Jim just not mentioning it part, but I can see it. I'm not so sure about them not needing Harry's help. I can see them becoming antagonistic in a full breakdown of the masquerade that results in a general "burn the witch" atmosphere. That's the only reason I can see for Harry cutting ties with S.I.
Okay. I still think Carlos would be picked, over Harry, for the same reasons as I said earlier. I also don't think anyone would be worried about offending Harry. Carlos is also picked over Harry for the same reason Carlos was picked over Eb. There was a better use for Eb.Fair enough, we can agree to disagree who would have got picked. It's a hypothetical situation anyway - Carlos is picked currently. As I said, I don't think anyone has really EVER worried about offending Harry. Although some are fairly wary of him considering his propensity for killing his enemies and often destroying their entire world. Eb wouldn't manage security as he is a Senior Council member now. At most he might manage the wardens, but I suspect that they all report to the Senior Council for different things.
I'm not sure that's the case. Especially if he was still the Winter Knight in that hypothetical.For the hypothetical to work, Harry never became the Winter Knight. Because it seems pretty clear that no matter what choice Harry made, if he took any deal he would have tried to kill himself (and the Fallen would have crossed the line to push him to do it). What would have been interesting is if Harry hadn't hurt his back and taken a deal, but he and the Grey and the White Councils respectively had teamed up against the Reds. Would the outcome have been the same? Would Harry and his pals have survived? Would the Reds have been wiped out or merely defeated? Or would the Reds have won?
My point about Carlos being in the top fifth or fourth of wardens by age is more that there aren't a lot of older wardens to go around than Carlos is old because I agree that he isn't old.Yeah but being in the top 5th of oldest wardens is hardly the same as being "one of the oldest wardens". I agree there are not a lot of old wardens anymore and considering that of let's say 250 wardens, 2/3 are under 40 - it still doesn't really make Carlos one of the oldest. He is still in the bottom 2/3. But I do agree that of those younger wardens, he would be one of the oldest after Harry and possibly the most senior.
He's got enough free time to investigate and solve a murder case that isn't his responsibility and plan a trip to the zoo between SG and PT.Which is the first amount of free time he has had since Skin Games ended. Between Changes and Skin Games (the last few years) he has had no free time. I suspect that this lull is just the calm before the storm anyhow.
I don't see S.I. ignoring Harry instead of giving him information. I don't see why they wouldn't at least hand him a copy of the file and be done with it. Murphy's bosses were never fine with routine S.I. cases being buried. They were constantly pressuring her to come up with answers. I don't think that will change.They were constantly pressuring her to come up with NORMAL answers. Not the same as actually solving the case. You're working with how SI used to operate. Not how they might now. Lots has changed in the world, both in Dresden's supernatural world and ours. Chances are there would be new bosses, new appointments and perhaps even new politicians (potentially from another political party) than when Dresden worked with them. All of which would impact greatly on how the police operate, and would filter down to SI. Yes, it's all hypothetical but not unreasonable considering how much time has passed.
1. Okay. This doesn't answer my question, but it shows me why you didn't answer it, which is better. If Harry stops being a warden and is always busy with a global crisis, then I can see him not keeping up with S.I. I don't think he will always be dealing with a global crisis though because that's basically Jim saying that there's a bunch of interesting stuff happening in Harry's life, but I'm not going to talk about it. Maybe he will completely change the format of the books to where they take place over longer periods of time, but I don't think so. The closest we've gotten to that was CD where the book literally takes place over a few months.Jim has actually used that technique before. He has talked mentioned about how Harry trained new wardens, Red Court skirmishes, learning secrets of Demonreach (particularly about activating the defenses), and some Winter Knight training. We always see Dresden's craziest moments, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have plenty of slightly less crazy days throughout the year. And Jim is changing the format of the books I believe. That is part of the reason for Peace Talks being split in two. Which isn't to say that he will extend the amount of time each book covers. But it doesn't mean that isn't the case either. We will just have to wait and see.
2. Using those sources always comes with a cost. I'm not sure he's going to keep turning to them for information. They might be the source of the future case files, but Harry will still need to work his sources when investigating the cases. Harry doesn't know which ones will be useful and which won't, so it wouldn't make sense for him to cut ties with S.I. The first case Mab gave him had Harry asking Karrin for information.Indeed it does. However Harry's life is never all that easy, and more and more he has had to cross lines that he once wouldn't have dreamed of crossing. Things he thought were abhorrent, insane and forbidden. Which is deliberate on Jim's part of course. Who knows how far Harry will go. Exactly, he went to Karrin. His long time friend, ally and love interest. Not some police guys he hasn't worked with in years and barely knows. The last time he dealt with law enforcement a building of feds was slaughtered. I doubt he will go near them anytime soon.
3. I'm not saying Harry is going to involve them in any of the action. Harry has always been the guy leveraging the little resources everyone else ignored. He used a bunch of pixies to kill a Lady. He still uses pixies. Harry has also always been playing out of his league (except maybe in SF).Look, I wouldn't put it past Jim to use them as a bit of a throwback and to add some extra red shirts to a scene. But that's all they will be. They won't be a long standing ally, and certainly not the same relationship that he previously had. Yes, Harry always is out of his league. All the more reason he doesn't want to involve innocent people. More blood on his hands. The last few books before Changes he explicitly tells Murphy that SI need to stay out of things as it would be a slaughter. He has come a long way and understood the problem of involving mortals much more than in the early series. These days though - when he fights in a heavier weight class he tends to bring his own heavies and tips the scales. He is fighting smarter now.
4. If the White Council falls, then Harry will need all the support he can get.I agree he will need all the help he can get. But it won't be from cops to solve murder mysteries. The only help they will be is an extra red shirt. Harry may have no choice but to recruit them. But assuming that Titan hasn't burned down Chicago after Battle Grounds, I think they will be too busy in clean up mode. If they survive the assault at all.
When he's saving the world, he still needs information to do it. He got help from the "boats, boats, boats" guy in CD. Harry's still going to need information. He's still going to need to figure things out.
Whose to say they won't be more helpful? My point is I don't see why they would be unwilling to exchange information with Harry. The only reason Karrin lasted as long as she did in S.I. was because she had Harry's help. I could see Harry not needing their help in any of the books from here on out and Jim never mentioning them again. I don't think it's likely, especially the Jim just not mentioning it part, but I can see it. I'm not so sure about them not needing Harry's help. I can see them becoming antagonistic in a full breakdown of the masquerade that results in a general "burn the witch" atmosphere. That's the only reason I can see for Harry cutting ties with S.I.Me. They can't help against these types of issues. They just are not trained or equipped for fighting the supernatural. They would be hard pressed to contain a sorcerer. The Loup-Garou slaughtered them. Against a flat-out Fomor assault...well, it wouldn't be pretty. Karrin lost her job because of Harry. If anything, her whole tragedy is that she refused to look the other way. Which is why Rudolph was so successful. Had she turned more weird cases into nice, neat normal solved cases she wouldn't have stayed in SI long. She might not have even ever gone to SI. I guess we will wait and see what happens with SI. But I would point out that they haven't been actively involved in the series for a long time. I think since Turn Coat, and that was really only Murphy. The last time any of them were on-screen before that was Small Favor.
I think Harry is still going to be a p.i., but I would agree that it will continue to play less and less of a role in the story than it has. I wouldn't be too surprised if it mostly only shows up in short stories at this point, but I think it will still be there at least in the background.It will have to be a wait and see. But officially, he is dead. And even if somehow that has changed/changes - I doubt he will go back to it. But perhaps there will be lulls and he will have time in the short stories.
A big part of my point isn't that Harry's life is going to be so different, it's more that Harry doesn't know he's heading to the BAT. Harry's going to try to get his life as close to regular as he can if for no other reason than to fight the influence Winter on his life.True. Only a few clued in people know the shape of what's coming. And how soon. I agree that Harry will do his best to get back to his old life. But he also has to be a Dad now. So to some degree I think he will be just doing his best to create a new life. I also suspect a new love interest is incoming if Murphy dies and/or if she can no longer be looked after by the Carpenters when Harry is busy. At the very least it will help him balance his parenting duties. On the other hand, Butcher might just do the single Dad route for a while. Harry had that and he turned out...well, he is mostly alright. Certainly not a complete mess.
Karrin Murphy headed up Special Investigations, a post that head traditionally resulted in a couple of months bumbling and then a speed exit from the police force. Murphy hadn't bumbled-instead, she'd hired the services of Chicago's only professional wizard as a consultant.Grave Peril, Ch. 11.
Ramirez was going to cover the course on relations with mortal authorities, which made sense; Ramirez got on just fine with the cops in LA, and hadn't been shot by nearly as many law enforcement personnel as I had.
And I put this question to you: If Dresden had so much spare time, and really wanted to get set up again, why has he not yet?I never said Harry had enough spare time. I said he will have the spare time, so the question is a bit of a straw-man. I also haven't really said he has the desire (other than it seems to fit his character to return to old habits). I said it would make sense because he would have the time, remain a warden, and it's a good way of collecting information/combating his scary image.
[1]And I don't recall at any point between Changes and Peace Talks that Dresden has set up as a PI or resumed any of his old activities. (emphasis added)...1. He went to Burger King, meets people at Mac's, started keeping Mac's beer at home and refrigerated. (Side note: Is it legal for Mac to distribute his beer/ale/etc.? It just recently became legal for breweries that serve their brews to also sale them like a store here in Texas). He sticks his nose in any supernatural business that shows up whenever he's around even when most people would say he is not supposed to be doing that. So much so that he was manipulated into it. The point is that he has resumed some of his old activities.
[2]...So while he might be on the books, he hasn't been very active. He hasn't contacted them and they haven't contacted him (despite the fact that officially he is alive again).
[3.1]...But Harry is the furthest thing from a normal warden. [3.2]Given that, I think it is less than likely they will have the spooky PI-Police relationship they had previously.
[4]... From the blurb of Battle Grounds I think should the masquerade fall in that book, I think it will be shocking and instant kind. However, I also wonder if Butcher will do the same as in the real world and have people just up and not believe what's happening in front of them. Probably a mixture - but when?
[5]...In fact, SI isn't the only mortal authority aware of the supernatural in the US - you even notice their existence in Dog Men. The Library of Congress (which has the "Men in Black" i.e. sort of secret service agency working with/ for it) is aware, and it is hinted they have been covering up the supernatural (such as making the tape of Harry and Murphy fighting the Loup-Garou disappear). Mostly they put pressure on to hush the situation up.
[6]...But I highly doubt SI will want Murphy back. Very rare in police circles, especially when someone leaves under a cloud.
I never said Harry had enough spare time. I said he will have the spare time, so the question is a bit of a straw-man. I also haven't really said he has the desire (other than it seems to fit his character to return to old habits). I said it would make sense because he would have the time, remain a warden, and it's a good way of collecting information/combating his scary image.My apologies, perhaps I misunderstood you when you said:
He's got enough free time to investigate and solve a murder case that isn't his responsibility and plan a trip to the zoo between SG and PT.Which I took to mean past tense. Anyway - it doesn't matter much either way. I think we can just agree to disagree on the issue.
1. He went to Burger King, meets people at Mac's, started keeping Mac's beer at home and refrigerated. (Side note: Is it legal for Mac to distribute his beer/ale/etc.? It just recently became legal for breweries that serve their brews to also sale them like a store here in Texas). He sticks his nose in any supernatural business that shows up whenever he's around even when most people would say he is not supposed to be doing that. So much so that he was manipulated into it. The point is that he has resumed some of his old activities.It is legal in some places. But no idea on Chicago. My mistake, by activities I meant his old jobs. Not really his hobbies/routines (BK, drinking etc). I suppose the argument could be made that he has been doing his job of warden in terms of sticking his knows in others business...but as only some of that was official White Council stuff I am not sure it counts. And his PI license has not yet (as far as I am aware) been renewed since his death.
2. He was definitely contacted by Ramirez who knew just where to find him. He definitely handled a young practitioner who was in danger of going warlock. He's also "protect[ed] mortals in [his] area [and been] vigilant against supernatural threats in [his] region." Has he done the best job of that? Irrelevant as you maintain that he was never a very good warden. Harry never seemed to be in much contact with the wardens.If you are referring to his contact in the first chapter of Peace Talks...well that's hardly fair as the book isn't out yet. Well, I actually I maintain he was a poor commander and leader. Not necessarily a bad warden though. They are different skills/roles and some are more suited one way or another. I don't hold it against Harry, but he probably needs some advice/training himself.
3.1. Acknowledged. 3.2 I suggested that he should maintain a relationship with S.I. I specifically said he should do something like let them know he doesn't need to be paid.Forgive me, but I can't find where you said that. So I am a tad confused. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think it is the worst idea for Harry to maintain a good relationship with local law enforcement (specifically SI). But I wouldn't recommend he helps them with the local weird death unless he has the time. Mostly, he should be worrying about how to stop the Black Council and Nemesis etc.
4. I've never really paid any attention to the book blurbs. I'm not sure if I've read any of them other than SF, PT, and BG. I'm not sure how much truth in advertising there is there. But Jim's indicated the masquerade is definitely going to end.Then allow me to assist you.
5. I got the impression that the feds from Dog Men were not the feds previously brought up by Jim who were hostile to the supernatural. The comics are not very good, in my opinion, so I only check them out from the library and read them once because I'm a completionist.On my reading they were the "Men In Black" that represent the agents of the Library of Congress. I don't imagine there are too many federal groups that are aware (as an organization) of the supernatural world. And they were rather hostile in that comic. I don't know why but I feel they are tied to the Archive, but I can't remember why that sticks in my brain.
6. Agreed, but I would note that they do often hire them back as consultants who make a lot more money for a lot less work. I've known a few people who were fired only to be hired back as consultant who charged exorbitant rates.Absolutely. What a world we live in. I don't normally advocate for it, especially when the person in question left in a various level of disgrace. Seems corrupt. But occasionally, some people just had a bad run and deserve a second chance. But I wouldn't say that was the majority.
[1]Such as reporting in person to Edinburgh.1. The only wizard who shows up to Edinburgh less is Rashid, so I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't shown up in person. If he did, I'd bet it would likely be a short trip to sign some paperwork or something. He has probably at least updated his mailing address with them and gotten the new protocols.
...[2]For whoever was counting potential deaths, remember that the “younger” Wardens, whom Harry mostly worked with and helped train, constitute somewhere around 240 of the 300 Warden roster figure we last had.
...[3]Marcone decided he’s tired of bearing such a big part of the bill for protecting Chicago from supernatural threats, and leans on those same administrators to open up the SI spigot again.
[4]Since Butters character arc was mentioned, I’ll point out that not only was his story arc capped by his choice to go out and sacrifice himself—which he had never done before.
...[5]Back on topic...as far as Irwin and Connie are concerned, I’m not sure whether or not they’ll be on Chicago in July, when school starts at the end of August. However, the fact that they’re moving into a staff apartment on campus at least makes that possible.
I’m wondering—assuming the two lovebirds are in Chicago in July when a Titan and her “army” show up—if they’re at enough risk that River Shoulders hears about it...and Shows Up. Jim has talked about all of the action figures he has on the shelf he hasn’t really had a chance to take down and play with yet. Along with the whole Senior Council, I kinda hope that River Shoulders would be another one.
The Wardens are the White Council's version of police and military,[1] numbering roughly two hundred strong prior to Dead Beat, when they fell to below sixty as a result of Red Court engagements,[2] now numbering over three hundred as of Turn Coat.[3]https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Warden (https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Warden).
I don't know. I think it's a great way for a warden to operate. I'm not sure if there's a better way, given the universe as established, for a warden to find out what's going on. Harry's been wardening for about 15 years because he set himself up as a wizard p.i. He should also let S.I know he doesn't need any money if they come up against something they can't handle themselves.It was my first post in this debate which was about a week ago. My premise has always been "it's a good idea." Harry's repeatedly been able to put his thumb in the eye of the Black Council/Nemesis/etc. because he was a p.i. or worked with S.I. My main point is that it won't make sense for Harry to ignore what have been very valuable sources of information without sufficient in text explanation. If the pacing of Harry's life picks up sufficiently, that'd be a good explanation. If he just stops, not so much.
Which I took to mean past tense.I was saying that Harry already has sufficient time to do those things from Jury Duty and Zoo Day because he did. Harry wasn't done moving in as of mid May (Jury Duty). He had time to resolve a murder case. There are several large tasks that I expect he will have done by Mirror Mirror. Maybe Battle Ground if it doesn't follow almost immediately after Peace Talks. This would indicate to me that he is going to have more time in the coming books unless Jim pretty drastically changes the series, which he might.
On my reading they were the "Men In Black" that represent the agents of the Library of Congress. I don't imagine there are too many federal groups that are aware (as an organization) of the supernatural world. And they were rather hostile in that comic. I don't know why but I feel they are tied to the Archive, but I can't remember why that sticks in my brain.It's been a while, but my impression was they were hostile to the wolf people because they thought the wolf people were responsible for the attacks of the ghouls. Once they realized it was the ghouls, they were no longer interested in the wolf people.
..................................................
Can anyone remember which book Jim said Christmas Eve is going to be at the end of? I'm assuming that it will not only physically be at the end of that book, but the events will take place after that book. I'm pretty sure he said it in his livestream with Priscilla from when the trailer dropped. JD is mid May, ZD is late May/early June, PT is July, and CE is obviously December 24/25. Are we all assuming CE is after BG, do we know it, or do some people think it's inbetween PT and BG?
I believe Peace Talks and Battle Ground were meant to be one book, but PT became to long, so he splitted the book in two.They were meant to be one book, but he did a lot of rewriting to make them into two books. See The Dresden Files Podcast, Episode 100: Prisicellie!. With that amount of rewriting, Jim could have then spaced the events out. Kind of like how nothing major happened (in Harry's life) after Grave Peril until Summer Knight.
So I would say, it takes place after BG, because it wasn't supposed to be a separate book.
2. We don't really know how many of the less than sixty wardens after DB were even the old guard. They could have been anywhere from Carlos's age to a few hundred years old. Likely they were unevenly distributed throughout that age range. We don't know how many of the +/-240 "new" wardens were old guard who came out of retirement either. We do know for a fact that Harry was enlisted after Carlos and that Harry is older. I do believe Harry said that the Wardens were now mostly young, and I do believe that Ramirez was the last warden to get a sword or in the last class of wardens to get a sword, so there aren't going to be a lot of wardens older than Ramirez. Another thing we don't know is how many of less than sixty remaining wardens have died between DB and TC.
I don't think that is relevant here, Ramirez was made a Warden before Harry was, he got a Sword because Luccio was still in her old body and had the skills to do so. With in days of Harry being made a Warden, Luccio lost her body to the Corpse Taker, and discovered shortly after that she lost the magical abilities that enabled her to match a sword to the skills and personality of her new Wardens. I seem to remember though I don't have the quote or the time to look it up, but she actually said to Harry that she no longer had the skills since her change but it was no reflection on him as a Warden. However another thought, what if she just thinks she doesn't have the skill anymore? Peabody had messed with her though his magic ink.. Perhaps the last thing he wanted was for Harry to be given a sword matching his talents, even if he never was a great swordsman.More likely she does not have the right body for her skills now. In time she might change that wiring a bit if she exercises her magic.
More likely she does not have the right body for her skills now. In time she might change that wiring a bit if she exercises her magic.
... Luccio was still in her old body and had the skills to do so ...
More likely she does not have the right body for her skills now. In time she might change that wiring a bit if she exercises her magic.
Yes, but the other possibility cannot be excluded simply because he also encouraged her toPretty sure the ink was only for the old coots Peabody couldn't directly mentally remodel.
have a love affair with Harry though the ink. Just throwing that out there.
Pretty sure the ink was only for the old coots Peabody couldn't directly mentally remodel.
"I've been working with the Wardens and administrative staff whose minds Peabody invaded."
"I heard."
"It appears," he said, choosing his words carefully, that the psychic disruption to Anastasia Luccio was particularly severe."
Pretty sure the ink was only for the old coots Peabody couldn't directly mentally remodel.
Yeah, hard to know isn't it? My guess is Battle Ground is after Christmas Eve...I think Christmas Eve will be after BG, but I haven't seen anything that strongly supports anything one way or the other.
...
2. True. We can only guess. I would tend to think the more experienced wizards survived, just based on that.
...I wasn't doubting you wrote it.
Don't get me wrong. Harry opening a buisness and managing a team of PIs and Wizards would be great. Sadly, I think the character just isn't the sort to do that.
...
Assuming Karen survives, I can see them working together. But I think she is marked for death, and has been for some time. Listen to Dresden's theme song "Gone Away" by The Offspring again. Almost like a neon sign.
...
Is free time really free if you can't use it? A debate for the philosphers among us
I don't think that is relevant hereWhere's here? If it's who is senior out of Ramirez and Harry, then I agree. If it's why Ramirez is in charge of security instead of someone older, then it is relevant because there aren't a lot of older someone's to choose from.
Perhaps the last thing [Peabody] wanted was for Harry to be given a sword matching his talents, even if he never was a great swordsman.Interesting. I imagine we'd find out soon because he's no longer messing with her mind.
Peabody tried his damnest to get [Harry] to sign paperwork.I think Peabody always or almost always used the ink to establish his mind control because of the scene alluded to. IMO, it is the light touch that was reserved for the "old coots," which doesn't include Luccio because the brittleness of mind is apparently a physical consequence of age and Luccio isn't even physically older than Harry.
Where's here? If it's who is senior out of Ramirez and Harry, then I agree. If it's why Ramirez is in charge of security instead of someone older, then it is relevant because there aren't a lot of older someone's to choose from.
I think Peabody always or almost always used the ink to establish his mind control because of the scene alluded to. IMO, it is the light touch that was reserved for the "old coots," which doesn't include Luccio because the brittleness of mind is apparently a physical consequence of age and Luccio isn't even physically older than Harry.
According to Rashid, Peabody did a lot of messing with Luccio's mind, further he enhanced her existing propensity for violence to set her up to murder LaFortier.I think he just directed it.
No, Luccio was one of his main targets. Turn Coat page 399 Rashid's conversation with Harry.My point is NOT 'Peabody didn't mentally manipulate Luccio'
There is a lot more about it on the page.
it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright.It's not clear whether or not he meant that Peabody used the ink to compromise their free will.
Eb finishes talking about Peabody's use of the ink withIt's not clear whether or not he meant that Peabody used the ink to compromise their free will.I agree there's nothing decisive, though I left that last bit of Eb's statement out on purpose as equal.
I don't see how the Gatekeeper's statement makes it clear that Peabody didn't use the inks to invade their minds. It just makes it clear that Peabody did invade their minds.
Peabody's reaction to Harry not signing for the file (Ch. 17) indicates that he was going to use the ink to invade Harry's mind. It's also demonstrated that they are alone in that section of the headquarters. This indicates that Peabody couldn't just manipulate someone's mind if they were alone. It indicates that Peabody needed something more than direct magic to manipulate even younger wizard's minds. We can be reasonably sure that he wasn't able to manipulate Harry with direct mind magic. (I don't know precisely what you mean by direct magic, but I'm assuming evocation).
Now it could be that Peabody needs more time than he was going to have with Dresden to do anything, but I think there is a good argument that he used the ink to mind bend all or most of his victims. I don't think there is anything decisive either way.
The point that Luccio was one of Peabody's main targets is evidence that he used ink on her. It's just very weak evidence if raised alone.
I agree there's nothing decisive, though I left that last bit of Eb's statement out on purpose as equal.
You could argue that it means the inks could be used to mindbend outright, or I could argue it shows how grossly, based on investigating just the inks, Eb underestimated what Peabody could do. "it is entirely possible" compared to "basically every younger warden had his or her mind remodelled to some extent with a stop-switch, up to and including suicide bomb level like Luccio".
It wasn't just Eb who underestimated Peabody, the whole damn Council did, witness the damage he did at his trial. It was the ink, without the ink Peabody couldn't of pulled off the mind influence. The ink acted as a mind numbing drug for lack of a better word, then Peabody was able to suggest all kinds of things and because of the ink, the victim no matter how experienced or powerful wasn't aware that he or she was being manipulated. Luccio was merely the most overt, most of the influence was much more subtle, effecting Senior Council decisions for years and no one noticed. That is why I think it was Eb, said the Council would have to go back at least ten years to revisit allMost young Wardens WERE affected, hence why Peabody could put them all on pause as he made a run for it.
the decisions it made.
Most young wizards weren't effected simply because most of them weren't in positions where they'd come in contact with the secretary for the Senior Council demanding that they sign this paper or that paper that often or at all. That is what saved Harry's butt, even though he had moved up the Warden command chain, he hardly if ever went to headquarters. Interesting that one of the first things when he did show up he was harassed by Peabody wanting him to "sign" this paper or that, which being Harry, he didn't do.
A test of the inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects
He looked to one side, where a slim-faced, prim-looking wizard sat with a quill, a bottle of ink, and pages and pages of parchment. "Wizard Peabody , will you consult the registry?"
Peabody reached under his table and came out with a bulging satchel. He muttered something to himself and rubbed some ink onto his nose with one finger, then he opened the satchel, which held what looked like a couple of reams of parchment.QuoteHis eyes glazed over slightly, and he reached into the papers seemingly at random. He drew out a single page, put it on the desk before him, nodded in satisfaction, then read in a reedy voice, "Wizard Montjoy."
The first time Peabody is shown in Summer Knight he already uses his ink to influence things:
From Summer Knight:
A few moments later:, and he reached into the papers seemingly at random. He drew out a single page, put it on the desk before him, nodded in satisfaction, then read in a reedy voice, "Wizard Montjoy."
I did not check it but I think he is always mentioned together with his ink as seemingly inseperable. Me I would never use that even before the computer they invented ball points and those are far more convenient.
And your first paragraph is purely speculative, especially "without the ink Peabody couldn't of pulled off the mind influence"; we know mindbending without inks is possible (see Molly and Corpsetaker), so the question is, did Peabody use the inks on everyone and then something else on top for the youngsters, or did he use the inks on people whose minds he couldn't really remodel (and so he needed a more subtle way in) while using direct mind magic on more susceptible targets.
The ink was just there to make mind manipulation easier for Peabody. He used it on Listen to Wind, he tried to use it on Harry. He probably used it on Luccio to. No reason not to use it when it makes everything easier.
Except that it makes also handy evidence if found.
Why didn't Peabody use mind magic on Harry when Harry went to Peabody's office?Peabody tried to get his ink on Harry but that failed. Apparently Peabody needs the ink to be successful or he decided it was just too risky to try it without his ink. A good reason to assume he used it most of the time.
Peabody tried to get his ink on Harry but that failed. Apparently Peabody needs the ink to be successful or he decided it was just too risky to try it without his ink. A good reason to assume he used it most of the time.
I think Peabody did need his ink, that is why he tried so hard to get Harry to sign some papers with his pen and ink. Without the ink, the subject/victim is aware that someone is trying to get in their head..Not as good as Molly.
I don't think we know enough to know if Peabody "needed" his ink, or if the ink just made his magic harder-to-detect (and thus less risky, more pervasive), or what the exact mechanisms were.
Harry dismissively labeled Peabody a "bureaucromancer," and I think in some ways that isn't far off, and ink is a central feature of his magic. In the SummerKnight bit quoted above, Peabody appears to have used magical ink on himself. Presumably, a different kind of ink, but still ...
"Working on the evidence Dresden found," Ebenezer said, "Warden Ramirez and I searched Peabody's chambers thoroughly not twenty minutes ago. A test of the inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects. It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of members of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright."
Eb believes the theory and along with Ramirez finds evidence and testifies to it in court.
page 386 Turn Coat
There is your evidence.
No, only that he uses the ink; not that he "needs" it.I think you are totally missing the point here of what Eb was saying. Does Peabody need to use the ink to get inside of minds? He is a fully qualified wizard, secretary to the Senior Council, that means he has skills. A surgeon has the skill to take out a liver without anesthesia, but the patient would be very aware that he was doing it. That is the whole point of the ink, "revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects."
Harry doesn't "need" his staff, or his blasting rod, or his shield bracelet, or his force rings, etc etc etc.
But he uses them, nonetheless!
We just don't know enough about Peabody; but I suspect it's something similar -- he uses the ink to enhance or leverage or hide or ... (???) his magic. Maybe to serve more than one purpose!
I think the explanation that Peabody needed the ink more plausible. But we really only know three things. The ink is for mind control. The ink was used on the Senior Council. Peabody didn't mind control Harry without the ink when they were alone.
I don't think there is any direct evidence that the ink is anesthesia. There is evidence that Peabody needed the ink to use mind magic on a young warden. He was unwilling to use evocation mind magic on Harry when no one was around even when he was in panic mode, if we believe Murphy's theory. Everything was falling apart. The walls were closing in. There wasn't just a slight risk of detection.
Now Harry isn't your average wizard. Harry's mind is a natural fortress. It could be that Peabody probed Harry's mind and found out about his natural mental toughness. Or it could be that he needed the ink for any wizard.If Peabody had probed Harry's mind first, Harry would have known it. I doubt that Peabody touched any wizard's mind until he softened up their resistance and awareness first with his magic ink.
Evidence is Peabody was messing with wizard minds for a decade or moreThat's not evidence that it's anesthesia. Not even a little bit.
...
If Peabody had probed Harry's mind first, Harry would have known it.
I doubt that Peabody touched any wizard's mind until he softened up their resistance and awareness first with his magic ink.Emphasis added. Exactly. You don't know. You strongly believe. I even agree that Peabody probably used ink on everyone. But we don't know that or how the ink worked. It's silly to pretend that you know one way or the other.
That's not evidence that it's anesthesia. Not even a little bit.
Not if the probing was passive.
Emphasis added. Exactly. You don't know. You strongly believe. I even agree that Peabody probably used ink on everyone. But we don't know that or how the ink worked. It's silly to pretend that you know one way or the other.
"Warden Ramirez and I searched Peabody's chambers thoroughly not twenty minutes ago. A test of the inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects. It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of members of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright."Um, the ink contained known substances used to assist in psychic manipulation.. That is pretty good evidence...
That's not evidence that it's anesthesia. Not even a little bit.
Not if the probing was passive.
Um, the ink contained known substances used to assist in psychic manipulation..That's evidence that it allows or helps mind manipulation. It doesn't say how it helps. If it numbs the mind, I'd imagine it would be described as similar to the thing we've seen that do that. Mind fogs.
...
The probing wasn't passive... Consider what he did to Luccio's mind, that wasn't passive. He influenced to the point where all decisions made for the last ten years or more have to be reconsidered, that is hardly passive...
Yeah, if the mind can be dulled to the point where it doesn't know it's being probed, that is anesthesia.. Novocaine is a local anesthesia, one doesn't have to be knocked out. The mind was numbed, defenses lowered so he could probe and influence, I'd call that good evidence of anesthesia like properties.