Author Topic: Which mortal might become nemfected?  (Read 18636 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Which mortal might become nemfected?
« on: December 04, 2019, 09:07:15 AM »
I have two questions I want to ask everyone.  Well, maybe two questions.  If you think that no mortal characters will be nemfected for the rest of the Dresden Files, or that mortals simply cannot become nemfected, just say no to question one.  I know some readers believe only the fae can be nemfected.  If that's you and you think the next likely target to be taken over by Nemesis will be the Erl King, Eldest Gruff or whoever, please post that WAG in another thread, this is just about mortals.

Question #1.  Do you think a mortal character will be taken over by Nemesis sometime in the series? (Including the BAT.)
Let me be more specific.  I don't mean manipulated by Nemesis or one of it's agents, I mean fully taken over like we saw with Cat Sith.  Personally, I don't believe Victor Sells or Leonid Kravos were possessed by Nemesis.  I think they were manipulated into using black magic or were already doing so and promised more power and were trained up.  The corrupting effects of black magic did the rest.  The FBI were tainted by using the wolf pelt belts, so Nemesis infection wasn't there either.  (Lily was as unreliable a narrator in the DF's as we could get.)   

Question #2 If you think it's possible or even likely someone will be possessed, or perhaps already is, who is it, or who will it be?  (Actually there's a second part to this question, so really there are three questions.) Part 2b.  And why do you think Nemesis might target this individual?

I've been thinking about posting a WAG about this for some time, but I'd like to see if anyone else is thinking along the same lines or has another character in mind as the likely target.  Actually, I don't want to post a WAG at all.  They can be very tiresome to write and I've already started on this particular WAG three times and it became very long, tedious to read, and just wasn't fun to work on any longer.  I'll leave this post alone for ten days to a couple of weeks and see what kind of responses I get, if any.  Then, in as short amount of space as I can, I will give you my candidate and why they are, or will be chosen.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 09:12:52 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Mira

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2019, 11:32:16 AM »


   If any mortal can my guess it would be the Knights for either Summer or Winter.  On the other hand
that might be the realreason why the Queens chose a mortal to be their Knight, because as a mortal they cannot be infected or infested.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2019, 04:25:56 PM »
Cowl. I think he shows the right suspicious behaviour and mental instability. Peabody is a possibility as well.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2019, 04:52:27 PM »
Cowl. I think he shows the right suspicious behaviour and mental instability. Peabody is a possibility as well.

   In my opinion Cowl didn't show he was mentally unstable, but merely evil or at the very least very
committed not unlike Nic to his cause and the masters he severs.   Peabody is possible, but it could also be from the beginning he agreed with Margaret that the system employed by the White Council needs reform.  Where as she made herself an outlaw by going outside the Laws of Magic to spark change, he elected to do it from the inside very cleverly manipulating the Senior Council with his magic ink.   Now you can say that was under the influence of Nemesis, but how do you prove it?

Offline Kindler

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2019, 05:18:48 PM »
I think that if Peabody were Infected, he would have spread Nemesis to the Senior Council ASAP. He was using mind-affecting ink instead of transmitting Nemesis itself, which would be the logical way to do things, in my opinion.

Though that may be explainable by the process of Nemesis Infection itself. Jim hasn't revealed the precise method of transmission. If it requires overpowering someone and holding them down for an hour or something, then that's going to be difficult for someone like Peabody.

What we know about that:

1. It should be possible to spread Nemesis via an inorganic object. The object itself may or may not need to be sufficiently powerful on its own. The Athame could have been used for a couple of reasons that I can see: either it's necessary for the object to have a certain level of power (Athame, the Swords, relics like the Holy Grail or some other kind of artifacts), or it simply had to be powerful enough to tempt Lea into trading for it.

2. It's possible to Infect someone quickly, like they did with Cat Sith. He was off-page for about, what, five hours? Ten? Cold Days all happens within a 30ish-hour period (Harry leaves the party for Chicago sometime after midnight but before dawn, and the final confrontation on Demonreach is before Dawn on the following day. 2-3am-->1-5am, in my opinion). But the point is that, between the time Harry first talks to Lily and Nemesis is revealed and the Wild Hunt v. Outsiders Cage Match, Cat Sith is captured and Infected.

3. Those who are Infected can be made aware of their own Infection. This means that Nemesis works best when it lays low for a long time, slowly altering the Vector until they're behaving in the way Nemesis wants. When Cat Sith was confronted with his out-of-character behavior, Nemesis was forced to take direct control. I take that to indicate that he was a rushed job, because we haven't seen that behavior from other confirmed Infected (namely, Maeve).

4. There is likely some kind of cost for Nemesis to spread to too many things. This is speculation, but I think that, if Infection was a free action for them, then they wouldn't have stopped with Lea and Maeve. I think that most of Winter would've been Infected. Maeve was Infected for years, and she has the time, power, and clout necessary to go around and Infect countless other Fae, but didn't. Either that means that there is a cost to spreading itself to too many different entities, or doing so would have had undesirable results—like maybe the Infection would've been noticed and stopped sooner.

It's also noteworthy that Lily wasn't Infected, despite the fact that Maeve spent lots of time with her, and doing so would've been easy enough. Instead, Nemesis opted to manipulate her. Why not Infect the new Summer Lady? Why is manipulation a better option? Surely it would've been advantageous to have both Ladies Infected and influence both sides of the Fae, right?

I therefore infer that there is some kind of cost associated with Infection. Either Nemesis can maintain a limited number of active Infections, or there is some other kind of cost I can't conceive at the moment.

5. No mortals have been confirmed to be Infected. Some insist that mortals can't be Infected at all, but I don't see why that would be the case, and haven't seen any evidence beyond "No confirmation of Infected Mortals = Can't Be Done." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

6. The most powerful entity that is confirmed to be Infected was, at one point, Lea (in her own words, she's second only to Mab in Winter). Mab tortured her (or, at the very least, put her through "exquisite pain") to "cure" her of the Nemesis Infection. That means that, even if it can't be fully cured, the symptoms can be treated if the host wants to change. Lea is shown to have the "mad glint" in her eye once, briefly, after her treatment by Mab. It is possible that Nemesis remains within Lea, but is currently held at bay by something (maybe even simple negative stimulus conditioning, like that "How to Stop Being a Freemason" Monty Python sketch). It's also possible that Nemesis is gone, but the effect on Lea still lingers, and she must make the occasional conscious effort to suppress it.

That is all that I can recall about Nemesis.

On topic, I think that the likeliest mortals to be Infected in the future are:

1. Senior Council members. Any of them, really.
2. Kumori, if she isn't already. Cowl, too.
3. Fix. I think he'd be a good target.
4. I don't think it will happen, but Infecting Murphy would break Harry just as badly as her death would. In fact, it might be worse, because he'd be crazy enough to hope to fix it.

Those who may already be Infected:
1. Elaine.
2. I hate to say it, but Justine.
3. Christos.

I say Justine because of the shape of her character arc. She's gone through some radical changes throughout the series. Like, really, really big ones. In fact, when she reveals that she's regained her faculties to Harry (in White Night? I can't recall), she simply states that there's no time to explain how she's recovered, and it's never revisited. And now she's having Thomas's baby, which gives her leverage over Thomas, the White Court, and Harry. I think it's possible that, during her period of disability, she was Infected, and Nemesis managed to not only help her recover faster, but increase her influence in the White Court. Can you think of another mortal who worked so closely with anyone in the upper echelons of the White Court? Certainly not for as long as she has. Lara defends her with her life, and not just because Justine is important to Thomas.

That's my WAG about it, anyway.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2019, 01:03:01 AM »
5. No mortals have been confirmed to be Infected. Some insist that mortals can't be Infected at all, but I don't see why that would be the case, and haven't seen any evidence beyond "No confirmation of Infected Mortals = Can't Be Done." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Another part of the argument is that Nemesis in fairies gives them the ability to chose, so it can't do it to mortals. Great argument? Not really because Nemesis could do something different for different groups.

Justine is an interesting possibility.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2019, 01:37:19 AM »
I think:

  • Nemesis is a spiritual infection. In that sense it looks a bit like the fallen from the coin or a demonic possession. It is your nature that is invaded and changed.
  • Nemesis can not just multiply the power of the infective stuff otherwise a mass epidemic would have ended this reality long ago.
  • An inanimate objext can be a carrier if it is an object of power. A human is probably easier to infect if the human has power, a wizard
  • All power from you add from outside yourself has the possibility to change you. Thomas is influenced by the power he takes and Justine can manage it by selecting the donors. If you take outsider power into yourself it will not just influence your moods, it has a personality of its own. It is a kind of possession.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2019, 12:21:30 PM »
I think:

  • Nemesis is a spiritual infection. In that sense it looks a bit like the fallen from the coin or a demonic possession. It is your nature that is invaded and changed.
  • Nemesis can not just multiply the power of the infective stuff otherwise a mass epidemic would have ended this reality long ago.
  • An inanimate objext can be a carrier if it is an object of power. A human is probably easier to infect if the human has power, a wizard
  • All power from you add from outside yourself has the possibility to change you. Thomas is influenced by the power he takes and Justine can manage it by selecting the donors. If you take outsider power into yourself it will not just influence your moods, it has a personality of its own. It is a kind of possession.

  I think it is more simple than that and at the same time more complicated.   Why would Mab say, "it was the Knife?"   Because apparently Nemesis needs a vector to deliver it.   We know pretty much how Lea and Maeve were infected, however at this point we have no information on how Cat Sith became so.   It isn't something air born apparently or the whole Winter Court would have been infected, so personal contact?  Or is the infection programmed to target specific victims?  The latter seems most likely,  perhaps easy to spot an infected Maeve or Lea, but Cat Sith?  He flew under the radar for some time before Harry realized something was very wrong with him..  Scarier still, if he hadn't taken the risk of that meeting with Titania and learned about Nemesis, would he have figure it out in time?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2019, 03:52:22 PM »
  I think it is more simple than that and at the same time more complicated.   Why would Mab say, "it was the Knife?"   Because apparently Nemesis needs a vector to deliver it.   We know pretty much how Lea and Maeve were infected, however at this point we have no information on how Cat Sith became so.   It isn't something air born apparently or the whole Winter Court would have been infected, so personal contact?  Or is the infection programmed to target specific victims?  The latter seems most likely,  perhaps easy to spot an infected Maeve or Lea, but Cat Sith?  He flew under the radar for some time before Harry realized something was very wrong with him..  Scarier still, if he hadn't taken the risk of that meeting with Titania and learned about Nemesis, would he have figure it out in time?
When Cat Sith got infected there was an actual outsider available. I think they can only infect a limited number of people before the amount of infective power is diluted to such an extend that it becomes less efficient. They have to get it to this side of the wall.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2019, 06:50:25 PM »
When Cat Sith got infected there was an actual outsider available. I think they can only infect a limited number of people before the amount of infective power is diluted to such an extend that it becomes less efficient. They have to get it to this side of the wall.

That is assuming that the Outsiders are behind the infestation.   There is evidence from what was going on at the Gates with Rashid that they can at least spread the infestation to Winter's soldiers.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2019, 07:29:25 PM »
That is assuming that the Outsiders are behind the infestation.   There is evidence from what was going on at the Gates with Rashid that they can at least spread the infestation to Winter's soldiers.
I think that is a safe assumption.
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Offline g33k

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2019, 10:57:14 PM »
I think that if Peabody were Infected, he would have spread Nemesis to the Senior Council ASAP. He was using mind-affecting ink instead of transmitting Nemesis itself, which would be the logical way to do things, in my opinion.

Though that may be explainable by the process of Nemesis Infection itself. Jim hasn't revealed the precise method of transmission. If it requires overpowering someone and holding them down for an hour or something, then that's going to be difficult for someone like Peabody...

It seems to me that not all infections will be equal.  Faeries gain stuff like the ability to tell bald-faced lies, and "Free Will" or some analogue thereof -- the ability to act against their "natures" (which normally, no faerie can ever do).

Humans can't get that from Nemesis, obviously!

As you note, we have no known infections of humans, so we don't know ANYTHING about it... including that an infected mortal becomes any sort of "vector" themselves -- an infected Peabody might not be ABLE to pass on an infection.

That said... Peabody strikes me as 100% a mortal practitioner, a Black Council wizard.  I don't think we need to postulate Nemesis or any other influence than the BC (of course, the BC may itself be influenced, or even be fully the tool, of Nemesis; but Peabody in and of himself is "just" a very subtle & powerful warlock (however, see WAGging below)).


2. It's possible to Infect someone quickly, like they did with Cat Sith. He was off-page for about, what, five hours? Ten? Cold Days all happens within a 30ish-hour period (Harry leaves the party for Chicago sometime after midnight but before dawn, and the final confrontation on Demonreach is before Dawn on the following day. 2-3am-->1-5am, in my opinion). But the point is that, between the time Harry first talks to Lily and Nemesis is revealed and the Wild Hunt v. Outsiders Cage Match, Cat Sith is captured and Infected.

We don't actually know, AFAIK, when Cat Sith was infected; maybe before the beginning of Cold Days.  Maybe a "backup" or "secondary" plan of Infected Lea, in case (or when) Maeve's infection was detected & countered.

The Infected CS, or maybe Nemesis itself, remarked that it was a shame to give up the covert action, but we don't really know how long that had been going on, beforehand...
 

3. ...  because we haven't seen that behavior from other confirmed Infected (namely, Maeve). 

I very much have the impression that Maeve's was a straightforward, knowing, and intentional transaction, almost like a Denarian Coin:  "You give me enough power to thwart and overthrow my MommyDearest, and... why, I shall overthrow my MommyDearest for you!!!"  It slips past Winter's inherent opposition to Outsiders via the Faeries-make-Bargains and The-Lady-Replaces-The-Queen loopholes, by way of Winter's openness to betrayal and The-Strong-Shall-Survive ethos.


4. There is likely some kind of cost for Nemesis to spread to too many things...

I therefore infer that there is some kind of cost associated with Infection. Either Nemesis can maintain a limited number of active Infections, or there is some other kind of cost I can't conceive at the moment.

Maybe Nemesis only has so much power, in total.  It's not like a virus, where every infection is an independent occurence.  Lea and Maeve together represent a HUGE amount of power!


... 5. No mortals have been confirmed to be Infected. Some insist that mortals can't be Infected at all, but I don't see why that would be the case, and haven't seen any evidence beyond "No confirmation of Infected Mortals = Can't Be Done." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

As best I recall and understand, you are correct.  We have only absence of information.  Does anyone have a  cgrep  for the WoJ archives?   :o
 
I've seen the theory that "all black magic is Outsider in origin."  This might imply that Sorcerors are all Nemfected, and we've seen PLENTY of those!  But again, I don't think this is demonstrated as canonically factual.

HOWEVER...  I have personally noted (elsethread) that the key element we've seen Nemesis do is muck around with Free Will; this speaks to me very-specifically of mind-magic.  Maybe that one, specifically, is Outsider in nature, or specially Outsider-susceptible (recall that Harry's soulgaze of Molly revealed a possible future with all-black eyes, and an identity as "something no longer human").  If so, Peabody might have been more in league with them than my prior analysis suggests.

Offline g33k

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2019, 12:41:06 AM »
... Question #1.  Do you think a mortal character will be taken over by Nemesis sometime in the series? (Including the BAT.)
Let me be more specific.  I don't mean manipulated by Nemesis or one of it's agents, I mean fully taken over like we saw with Cat Sith.  Personally, I don't believe Victor Sells or Leonid Kravos were possessed by Nemesis.  I think they were manipulated into using black magic or were already doing so and promised more power and were trained up.  The corrupting effects of black magic did the rest.  The FBI were tainted by using the wolf pelt belts, so Nemesis infection wasn't there either.  (Lily was as unreliable a narrator in the DF's as we could get.)  ...

I think it remains an open question WHETHER mortals can be infected (at least so far as the canonical stories and the WoJ's).

I point out that when Harry & his ghost battle Kravos' ghost, Harry could see a "demon" who had been possessing Kravos in life; so your blanket claim that Kravos had no Outsider possession is... not wrong, but maybe not as strong as you presented (after all, other (non-Outsider) beings can "possess" a mortal; but on the Gripping Hand, I don't think Harry would have recognized an "Outsider," that early in his career; also, it was presumably just the "ghostly echo," the imprint of the "demon" (and Kravos' experience of it) in life, not the ACTUAL demon (because Harry didn't have to fight the demon as a separate entity from Kravos' ghost)).

From a Doylist perspective... yes, I do think humans can be possessed by Outsiders.  I think so specifically because I expect Jim to torment Harry with it.  I presume Harry himself won't get possessed -- or if so, only very briefly -- because that would be to much a retread of the Lasciel plot (but Harry shattering an attempted possession would show him at a higher power-level, and be less of a retread).

But if Murphy got possessed?  Probably not, because we had Possessed-Anastasia, and it seems like Karrin+Harry are now sittin' in a tree / kay eye ess ess eye enn GEE!  So it's another too-much-a-retread scenario.  But it'd mess with him, for sure!

Or Molly (oooh, yummy new (naive & thus vulnerable!) WinterLady for Nemesis!!!  (nevermind the Free Will, dear... you'll get to Have! Sex! With! Harry!  Yeah, WinterMolly got some weakness goin' on there!)).  I don't think that Harry has yet twigged to the Ladies being nubile, erotic, virgins as part of their essential identities.  Maybe he has, or he will before NemfNymphMolly tries to jump him, and her genuine willingness is what tips him off...

Or Marcone?  Not that it'd tear up Harry emotionally, but the OMG-No! that Harry had -- when he realized the Denarians might (eventually) get Marcone to pick up a coin -- that terror, fulfilled.


Question #2 If you think it's possible or even likely someone will be possessed, or perhaps already is, who is it, or who will it be?  (Actually there's a second part to this question, so really there are three questions.  Part 2b.  And why do you think Nemesis might target this individual?

I am extremely unclear as to how much Outsiders or Nemesis actually understand the world.  Do they grasp modern cultures and tools and technologies?  Politics, economics?  The weapons?  Etc.  It seems to me like Nemesis should already have done a bunch of stuff with mortals.  But maybe they just don't understand those crazy mortals well enough to pull their levers and press their buttons in ways that are effective... I'm thinking of Arthur Weaseley's comedic fascination/ignorance around All Things Muggle.

Note that they don't even need to be able to possess a mortal directly -- plenty of the beings they CAN possess are eminently capable of persuading or forcing a human to do absolutely anything!

There's also the issue -- if mortals can indeed be Nemfected -- of which mortals already ARE infected, and just still hidden.

Which mortals?  As above... from a Doylist perspective, the one(s) that will most emotionally-wreck Harry, the ones who will most strategically-blindside him, the ones who will most tactically-threaten him.

  • My top "already infected" pick is Elaine Mallory (by way of Justin DuMorne, en route to bargaining with Summer, as a subterfuge for infecting Aurora).  It wrecks Harry, it blindsides him (she's been Such a Good Girl (and a contributing member of society) since Harry rescued her from the Nasty Faerie!), it's a tactical threat (not-quite-Harry-Strong, and much-more-than-Harry-deft; plus whatever Nemesis power-ups).
  • Molly.  Harry will have to crawl up out of his own vomit-pit, he'd be so sickened and destroyed by this; a top pick for new infections.  Elaine / Molly may have to be a Doylistic either/or"  there's a lot of narrative similarity to these...
  • A different Carpenter kid.  Maybe Daniel (who's already struggling morally); or namesake-Harry, or Hobbit.  One of the ones who gets extra characterization.
    • Marcone.  Strategic blindside (he knows Marcone will resist possession) and tactical threat, as above.
    • Any of the White Council, but especially his "reliable" allies like Ramirez, "Steed," IJ/LtW; and MOST especially, of course, Ebenezer (though honestly, I expect Eb's fate is different:  to die tragically, leaving an unclaimed Blackstaff that Harry needs to pick up and wield in extremis).  I have LESS expectation that any of the WC whom Harry already despises will go Nemesis, it's just a waste of narrative.
    • The Black Council (assuming they AREN'T already just Outsider-puppets), not excluding Cowl (but see below).  I presume at least one Nemfection, and maybe more.  Already Nemfected, or will be; either/or/both.  They're just jerks that way.
    • The suggestion of Justine by @Kindler is an interesting one, and checks at least some of my boxes; a solid pick.
    • Agent Tilly.  I'd hate it if it happened:  I like Tilly too much and want to see Clued-In Tilly rather than Nemfected Tilly; but it ticks Blindside AND Threatening (Tilly can bring really egregious amounts of mortal firepower to bear), and it'd Wreck Harry by way of wrecking Murphy, to whom Tilly is an old and trusted friend
    .
    That's all who spring to mind, though I expect I've overlooked some good options.  I currently suspect Cowl not of Nemfection, but of being TT-Harry with an extra 2-3 centuries of experience.
     

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2019, 01:06:26 AM »
Given the lack of data anything is possible.  Given Butcher's professed laziness, I'm gonna go with it works like the coins.  The magic that bound the Denarians to the coins had to come from somewhere.  So, a touch is enough, and the shadow can take over the subject immediately if Nicodemus is to be believed.  Cat Sith didn't like Harry anyway so it would have only taken a nudge.  I wouldn't put money on it though.

Offline Mira

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2019, 11:49:34 PM »
Quote
My top "already infected" pick is Elaine Mallory (by way of Justin DuMorne, en route to bargaining with Summer, as a subterfuge for infecting Aurora).  It wrecks Harry, it blindsides him (she's been Such a Good Girl (and a contributing member of society) since Harry rescued her from the Nasty Faerie!), it's a tactical threat (not-quite-Harry-Strong, and much-more-than-Harry-deft; plus whatever Nemesis power-ups).

   I'd agree with this or at the very least a "Typhoid Mary," while not infected herself, none the less a "carrier" of the infection to the likes of Aurora and the Summer Court.