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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on December 04, 2019, 09:07:15 AM
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I have two questions I want to ask everyone. Well, maybe two questions. If you think that no mortal characters will be nemfected for the rest of the Dresden Files, or that mortals simply cannot become nemfected, just say no to question one. I know some readers believe only the fae can be nemfected. If that's you and you think the next likely target to be taken over by Nemesis will be the Erl King, Eldest Gruff or whoever, please post that WAG in another thread, this is just about mortals.
Question #1. Do you think a mortal character will be taken over by Nemesis sometime in the series? (Including the BAT.)
Let me be more specific. I don't mean manipulated by Nemesis or one of it's agents, I mean fully taken over like we saw with Cat Sith. Personally, I don't believe Victor Sells or Leonid Kravos were possessed by Nemesis. I think they were manipulated into using black magic or were already doing so and promised more power and were trained up. The corrupting effects of black magic did the rest. The FBI were tainted by using the wolf pelt belts, so Nemesis infection wasn't there either. (Lily was as unreliable a narrator in the DF's as we could get.)
Question #2 If you think it's possible or even likely someone will be possessed, or perhaps already is, who is it, or who will it be? (Actually there's a second part to this question, so really there are three questions.) Part 2b. And why do you think Nemesis might target this individual?
I've been thinking about posting a WAG about this for some time, but I'd like to see if anyone else is thinking along the same lines or has another character in mind as the likely target. Actually, I don't want to post a WAG at all. They can be very tiresome to write and I've already started on this particular WAG three times and it became very long, tedious to read, and just wasn't fun to work on any longer. I'll leave this post alone for ten days to a couple of weeks and see what kind of responses I get, if any. Then, in as short amount of space as I can, I will give you my candidate and why they are, or will be chosen.
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If any mortal can my guess it would be the Knights for either Summer or Winter. On the other hand
that might be the realreason why the Queens chose a mortal to be their Knight, because as a mortal they cannot be infected or infested.
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Cowl. I think he shows the right suspicious behaviour and mental instability. Peabody is a possibility as well.
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Cowl. I think he shows the right suspicious behaviour and mental instability. Peabody is a possibility as well.
In my opinion Cowl didn't show he was mentally unstable, but merely evil or at the very least very
committed not unlike Nic to his cause and the masters he severs. Peabody is possible, but it could also be from the beginning he agreed with Margaret that the system employed by the White Council needs reform. Where as she made herself an outlaw by going outside the Laws of Magic to spark change, he elected to do it from the inside very cleverly manipulating the Senior Council with his magic ink. Now you can say that was under the influence of Nemesis, but how do you prove it?
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I think that if Peabody were Infected, he would have spread Nemesis to the Senior Council ASAP. He was using mind-affecting ink instead of transmitting Nemesis itself, which would be the logical way to do things, in my opinion.
Though that may be explainable by the process of Nemesis Infection itself. Jim hasn't revealed the precise method of transmission. If it requires overpowering someone and holding them down for an hour or something, then that's going to be difficult for someone like Peabody.
What we know about that:
1. It should be possible to spread Nemesis via an inorganic object. The object itself may or may not need to be sufficiently powerful on its own. The Athame could have been used for a couple of reasons that I can see: either it's necessary for the object to have a certain level of power (Athame, the Swords, relics like the Holy Grail or some other kind of artifacts), or it simply had to be powerful enough to tempt Lea into trading for it.
2. It's possible to Infect someone quickly, like they did with Cat Sith. He was off-page for about, what, five hours? Ten? Cold Days all happens within a 30ish-hour period (Harry leaves the party for Chicago sometime after midnight but before dawn, and the final confrontation on Demonreach is before Dawn on the following day. 2-3am-->1-5am, in my opinion). But the point is that, between the time Harry first talks to Lily and Nemesis is revealed and the Wild Hunt v. Outsiders Cage Match, Cat Sith is captured and Infected.
3. Those who are Infected can be made aware of their own Infection. This means that Nemesis works best when it lays low for a long time, slowly altering the Vector until they're behaving in the way Nemesis wants. When Cat Sith was confronted with his out-of-character behavior, Nemesis was forced to take direct control. I take that to indicate that he was a rushed job, because we haven't seen that behavior from other confirmed Infected (namely, Maeve).
4. There is likely some kind of cost for Nemesis to spread to too many things. This is speculation, but I think that, if Infection was a free action for them, then they wouldn't have stopped with Lea and Maeve. I think that most of Winter would've been Infected. Maeve was Infected for years, and she has the time, power, and clout necessary to go around and Infect countless other Fae, but didn't. Either that means that there is a cost to spreading itself to too many different entities, or doing so would have had undesirable results—like maybe the Infection would've been noticed and stopped sooner.
It's also noteworthy that Lily wasn't Infected, despite the fact that Maeve spent lots of time with her, and doing so would've been easy enough. Instead, Nemesis opted to manipulate her. Why not Infect the new Summer Lady? Why is manipulation a better option? Surely it would've been advantageous to have both Ladies Infected and influence both sides of the Fae, right?
I therefore infer that there is some kind of cost associated with Infection. Either Nemesis can maintain a limited number of active Infections, or there is some other kind of cost I can't conceive at the moment.
5. No mortals have been confirmed to be Infected. Some insist that mortals can't be Infected at all, but I don't see why that would be the case, and haven't seen any evidence beyond "No confirmation of Infected Mortals = Can't Be Done." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
6. The most powerful entity that is confirmed to be Infected was, at one point, Lea (in her own words, she's second only to Mab in Winter). Mab tortured her (or, at the very least, put her through "exquisite pain") to "cure" her of the Nemesis Infection. That means that, even if it can't be fully cured, the symptoms can be treated if the host wants to change. Lea is shown to have the "mad glint" in her eye once, briefly, after her treatment by Mab. It is possible that Nemesis remains within Lea, but is currently held at bay by something (maybe even simple negative stimulus conditioning, like that "How to Stop Being a Freemason" Monty Python sketch). It's also possible that Nemesis is gone, but the effect on Lea still lingers, and she must make the occasional conscious effort to suppress it.
That is all that I can recall about Nemesis.
On topic, I think that the likeliest mortals to be Infected in the future are:
1. Senior Council members. Any of them, really.
2. Kumori, if she isn't already. Cowl, too.
3. Fix. I think he'd be a good target.
4. I don't think it will happen, but Infecting Murphy would break Harry just as badly as her death would. In fact, it might be worse, because he'd be crazy enough to hope to fix it.
Those who may already be Infected:
1. Elaine.
2. I hate to say it, but Justine.
3. Christos.
I say Justine because of the shape of her character arc. She's gone through some radical changes throughout the series. Like, really, really big ones. In fact, when she reveals that she's regained her faculties to Harry (in White Night? I can't recall), she simply states that there's no time to explain how she's recovered, and it's never revisited. And now she's having Thomas's baby, which gives her leverage over Thomas, the White Court, and Harry. I think it's possible that, during her period of disability, she was Infected, and Nemesis managed to not only help her recover faster, but increase her influence in the White Court. Can you think of another mortal who worked so closely with anyone in the upper echelons of the White Court? Certainly not for as long as she has. Lara defends her with her life, and not just because Justine is important to Thomas.
That's my WAG about it, anyway.
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5. No mortals have been confirmed to be Infected. Some insist that mortals can't be Infected at all, but I don't see why that would be the case, and haven't seen any evidence beyond "No confirmation of Infected Mortals = Can't Be Done." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Another part of the argument is that Nemesis in fairies gives them the ability to chose, so it can't do it to mortals. Great argument? Not really because Nemesis could do something different for different groups.
Justine is an interesting possibility.
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I think:
- Nemesis is a spiritual infection. In that sense it looks a bit like the fallen from the coin or a demonic possession. It is your nature that is invaded and changed.
- Nemesis can not just multiply the power of the infective stuff otherwise a mass epidemic would have ended this reality long ago.
- An inanimate objext can be a carrier if it is an object of power. A human is probably easier to infect if the human has power, a wizard
- All power from you add from outside yourself has the possibility to change you. Thomas is influenced by the power he takes and Justine can manage it by selecting the donors. If you take outsider power into yourself it will not just influence your moods, it has a personality of its own. It is a kind of possession.
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I think:
- Nemesis is a spiritual infection. In that sense it looks a bit like the fallen from the coin or a demonic possession. It is your nature that is invaded and changed.
- Nemesis can not just multiply the power of the infective stuff otherwise a mass epidemic would have ended this reality long ago.
- An inanimate objext can be a carrier if it is an object of power. A human is probably easier to infect if the human has power, a wizard
- All power from you add from outside yourself has the possibility to change you. Thomas is influenced by the power he takes and Justine can manage it by selecting the donors. If you take outsider power into yourself it will not just influence your moods, it has a personality of its own. It is a kind of possession.
I think it is more simple than that and at the same time more complicated. Why would Mab say, "it was the Knife?" Because apparently Nemesis needs a vector to deliver it. We know pretty much how Lea and Maeve were infected, however at this point we have no information on how Cat Sith became so. It isn't something air born apparently or the whole Winter Court would have been infected, so personal contact? Or is the infection programmed to target specific victims? The latter seems most likely, perhaps easy to spot an infected Maeve or Lea, but Cat Sith? He flew under the radar for some time before Harry realized something was very wrong with him.. Scarier still, if he hadn't taken the risk of that meeting with Titania and learned about Nemesis, would he have figure it out in time?
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I think it is more simple than that and at the same time more complicated. Why would Mab say, "it was the Knife?" Because apparently Nemesis needs a vector to deliver it. We know pretty much how Lea and Maeve were infected, however at this point we have no information on how Cat Sith became so. It isn't something air born apparently or the whole Winter Court would have been infected, so personal contact? Or is the infection programmed to target specific victims? The latter seems most likely, perhaps easy to spot an infected Maeve or Lea, but Cat Sith? He flew under the radar for some time before Harry realized something was very wrong with him.. Scarier still, if he hadn't taken the risk of that meeting with Titania and learned about Nemesis, would he have figure it out in time?
When Cat Sith got infected there was an actual outsider available. I think they can only infect a limited number of people before the amount of infective power is diluted to such an extend that it becomes less efficient. They have to get it to this side of the wall.
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When Cat Sith got infected there was an actual outsider available. I think they can only infect a limited number of people before the amount of infective power is diluted to such an extend that it becomes less efficient. They have to get it to this side of the wall.
That is assuming that the Outsiders are behind the infestation. There is evidence from what was going on at the Gates with Rashid that they can at least spread the infestation to Winter's soldiers.
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That is assuming that the Outsiders are behind the infestation. There is evidence from what was going on at the Gates with Rashid that they can at least spread the infestation to Winter's soldiers.
I think that is a safe assumption.
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I think that if Peabody were Infected, he would have spread Nemesis to the Senior Council ASAP. He was using mind-affecting ink instead of transmitting Nemesis itself, which would be the logical way to do things, in my opinion.
Though that may be explainable by the process of Nemesis Infection itself. Jim hasn't revealed the precise method of transmission. If it requires overpowering someone and holding them down for an hour or something, then that's going to be difficult for someone like Peabody...
It seems to me that not all infections will be equal. Faeries gain stuff like the ability to tell bald-faced lies, and "Free Will" or some analogue thereof -- the ability to act against their "natures" (which normally, no faerie can ever do).
Humans can't get that from Nemesis, obviously!
As you note, we have no known infections of humans, so we don't know ANYTHING about it... including that an infected mortal becomes any sort of "vector" themselves -- an infected Peabody might not be ABLE to pass on an infection.
That said... Peabody strikes me as 100% a mortal practitioner, a Black Council wizard. I don't think we need to postulate Nemesis or any other influence than the BC (of course, the BC may itself be influenced, or even be fully the tool, of Nemesis; but Peabody in and of himself is "just" a very subtle & powerful warlock (however, see WAGging below)).
2. It's possible to Infect someone quickly, like they did with Cat Sith. He was off-page for about, what, five hours? Ten? Cold Days all happens within a 30ish-hour period (Harry leaves the party for Chicago sometime after midnight but before dawn, and the final confrontation on Demonreach is before Dawn on the following day. 2-3am-->1-5am, in my opinion). But the point is that, between the time Harry first talks to Lily and Nemesis is revealed and the Wild Hunt v. Outsiders Cage Match, Cat Sith is captured and Infected.
We don't actually know, AFAIK, when Cat Sith was infected; maybe before the beginning of Cold Days. Maybe a "backup" or "secondary" plan of Infected Lea, in case (or when) Maeve's infection was detected & countered.
The Infected CS, or maybe Nemesis itself, remarked that it was a shame to give up the covert action, but we don't really know how long that had been going on, beforehand...
3. ... because we haven't seen that behavior from other confirmed Infected (namely, Maeve).
I very much have the impression that Maeve's was a straightforward, knowing, and intentional transaction, almost like a Denarian Coin: "You give me enough power to thwart and overthrow my MommyDearest, and... why, I shall overthrow my MommyDearest for you!!!" It slips past Winter's inherent opposition to Outsiders via the Faeries-make-Bargains and The-Lady-Replaces-The-Queen loopholes, by way of Winter's openness to betrayal and The-Strong-Shall-Survive ethos.
4. There is likely some kind of cost for Nemesis to spread to too many things...
I therefore infer that there is some kind of cost associated with Infection. Either Nemesis can maintain a limited number of active Infections, or there is some other kind of cost I can't conceive at the moment.
Maybe Nemesis only has so much power, in total. It's not like a virus, where every infection is an independent occurence. Lea and Maeve together represent a HUGE amount of power!
... 5. No mortals have been confirmed to be Infected. Some insist that mortals can't be Infected at all, but I don't see why that would be the case, and haven't seen any evidence beyond "No confirmation of Infected Mortals = Can't Be Done." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
As best I recall and understand, you are correct. We have only absence of information. Does anyone have a cgrep for the WoJ archives? :o
I've seen the theory that "all black magic is Outsider in origin." This might imply that Sorcerors are all Nemfected, and we've seen PLENTY of those! But again, I don't think this is demonstrated as canonically factual.
HOWEVER... I have personally noted (elsethread) that the key element we've seen Nemesis do is muck around with Free Will; this speaks to me very-specifically of mind-magic. Maybe that one, specifically, is Outsider in nature, or specially Outsider-susceptible (recall that Harry's soulgaze of Molly revealed a possible future with all-black eyes, and an identity as "something no longer human"). If so, Peabody might have been more in league with them than my prior analysis suggests.
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... Question #1. Do you think a mortal character will be taken over by Nemesis sometime in the series? (Including the BAT.)
Let me be more specific. I don't mean manipulated by Nemesis or one of it's agents, I mean fully taken over like we saw with Cat Sith. Personally, I don't believe Victor Sells or Leonid Kravos were possessed by Nemesis. I think they were manipulated into using black magic or were already doing so and promised more power and were trained up. The corrupting effects of black magic did the rest. The FBI were tainted by using the wolf pelt belts, so Nemesis infection wasn't there either. (Lily was as unreliable a narrator in the DF's as we could get.) ...
I think it remains an open question WHETHER mortals can be infected (at least so far as the canonical stories and the WoJ's).
I point out that when Harry & his ghost battle Kravos' ghost, Harry could see a "demon" who had been possessing Kravos in life; so your blanket claim that Kravos had no Outsider possession is... not wrong, but maybe not as strong as you presented (after all, other (non-Outsider) beings can "possess" a mortal; but on the Gripping Hand, I don't think Harry would have recognized an "Outsider," that early in his career; also, it was presumably just the "ghostly echo," the imprint of the "demon" (and Kravos' experience of it) in life, not the ACTUAL demon (because Harry didn't have to fight the demon as a separate entity from Kravos' ghost)).
From a Doylist perspective... yes, I do think humans can be possessed by Outsiders. I think so specifically because I expect Jim to torment Harry with it. I presume Harry himself won't get possessed -- or if so, only very briefly -- because that would be to much a retread of the Lasciel plot (but Harry shattering an attempted possession would show him at a higher power-level, and be less of a retread).
But if Murphy got possessed? Probably not, because we had Possessed-Anastasia, and it seems like Karrin+Harry are now sittin' in a tree / kay eye ess ess eye enn GEE! So it's another too-much-a-retread scenario. But it'd mess with him, for sure!
Or Molly (oooh, yummy new (naive & thus vulnerable!) WinterLady for Nemesis!!! (nevermind the Free Will, dear... you'll get to Have! Sex! With! Harry! Yeah, WinterMolly got some weakness goin' on there!)). I don't think that Harry has yet twigged to the Ladies being nubile, erotic, virgins as part of their essential identities. Maybe he has, or he will before NemfNymphMolly tries to jump him, and her genuine willingness is what tips him off...
Or Marcone? Not that it'd tear up Harry emotionally, but the OMG-No! that Harry had -- when he realized the Denarians might (eventually) get Marcone to pick up a coin -- that terror, fulfilled.
Question #2 If you think it's possible or even likely someone will be possessed, or perhaps already is, who is it, or who will it be? (Actually there's a second part to this question, so really there are three questions. Part 2b. And why do you think Nemesis might target this individual?
I am extremely unclear as to how much Outsiders or Nemesis actually understand the world. Do they grasp modern cultures and tools and technologies? Politics, economics? The weapons? Etc. It seems to me like Nemesis should already have done a bunch of stuff with mortals. But maybe they just don't understand those crazy mortals well enough to pull their levers and press their buttons in ways that are effective... I'm thinking of Arthur Weaseley's comedic fascination/ignorance around All Things Muggle.
Note that they don't even need to be able to possess a mortal directly -- plenty of the beings they CAN possess are eminently capable of persuading or forcing a human to do absolutely anything!
There's also the issue -- if mortals can indeed be Nemfected -- of which mortals already ARE infected, and just still hidden.
Which mortals? As above... from a Doylist perspective, the one(s) that will most emotionally-wreck Harry, the ones who will most strategically-blindside him, the ones who will most tactically-threaten him.
- My top "already infected" pick is Elaine Mallory (by way of Justin DuMorne, en route to bargaining with Summer, as a subterfuge for infecting Aurora). It wrecks Harry, it blindsides him (she's been Such a Good Girl (and a contributing member of society) since Harry rescued her from the Nasty Faerie!), it's a tactical threat (not-quite-Harry-Strong, and much-more-than-Harry-deft; plus whatever Nemesis power-ups).
- Molly. Harry will have to crawl up out of his own vomit-pit, he'd be so sickened and destroyed by this; a top pick for new infections. Elaine / Molly may have to be a Doylistic either/or" there's a lot of narrative similarity to these...
- A different Carpenter kid. Maybe Daniel (who's already struggling morally); or namesake-Harry, or Hobbit. One of the ones who gets extra characterization.
- Marcone. Strategic blindside (he knows Marcone will resist possession) and tactical threat, as above.
- Any of the White Council, but especially his "reliable" allies like Ramirez, "Steed," IJ/LtW; and MOST especially, of course, Ebenezer (though honestly, I expect Eb's fate is different: to die tragically, leaving an unclaimed Blackstaff that Harry needs to pick up and wield in extremis). I have LESS expectation that any of the WC whom Harry already despises will go Nemesis, it's just a waste of narrative.
- The Black Council (assuming they AREN'T already just Outsider-puppets), not excluding Cowl (but see below). I presume at least one Nemfection, and maybe more. Already Nemfected, or will be; either/or/both. They're just jerks that way.
- The suggestion of Justine by @Kindler is an interesting one, and checks at least some of my boxes; a solid pick.
- Agent Tilly. I'd hate it if it happened: I like Tilly too much and want to see Clued-In Tilly rather than Nemfected Tilly; but it ticks Blindside AND Threatening (Tilly can bring really egregious amounts of mortal firepower to bear), and it'd Wreck Harry by way of wrecking Murphy, to whom Tilly is an old and trusted friend
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That's all who spring to mind, though I expect I've overlooked some good options. I currently suspect Cowl not of Nemfection, but of being TT-Harry with an extra 2-3 centuries of experience.
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Given the lack of data anything is possible. Given Butcher's professed laziness, I'm gonna go with it works like the coins. The magic that bound the Denarians to the coins had to come from somewhere. So, a touch is enough, and the shadow can take over the subject immediately if Nicodemus is to be believed. Cat Sith didn't like Harry anyway so it would have only taken a nudge. I wouldn't put money on it though.
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My top "already infected" pick is Elaine Mallory (by way of Justin DuMorne, en route to bargaining with Summer, as a subterfuge for infecting Aurora). It wrecks Harry, it blindsides him (she's been Such a Good Girl (and a contributing member of society) since Harry rescued her from the Nasty Faerie!), it's a tactical threat (not-quite-Harry-Strong, and much-more-than-Harry-deft; plus whatever Nemesis power-ups).
I'd agree with this or at the very least a "Typhoid Mary," while not infected herself, none the less a "carrier" of the infection to the likes of Aurora and the Summer Court.
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Well as stated above by Kindler and others, there is no evidence at all that Mortal's cannot be infected by Nemesis. That is pure speculation, as it isn't even implied in any canon or WOJ. The theory behind it has been explained, and is understandable, but is a poor premise to build off. Which isn't saying it might not be true - but the jury is WAY out.
Q1:
Yes, and I believe it has already happened. As Arjan points out and I have theorized before, Nemesis cannot spread like an epidemic otherwise it probably would have. Which means targets have to fit quite specific criteria in order to become infected. Whilst I agree that many of the "bad" villains are not necessarily infected, I expect quite a few are. Perhaps even (at least) one per book.
Q2:
Likely already infected suspects include: Cowl, Elaine, Simon, Justin, Peabody, Kumori (assuming she isn't Elaine), Cristos, Tessa, Rosanna.
Possible already infected suspects: Victor Sells, Agent Denton, Leonid Kravos. Yes, Lily might be an unreliable source but so far is the only person to have actually pointed out suspects in the entire series (apart from the Mothers). But also because of their behaviour prior the taking on power. They started out good, but twisted against their nature. And from a purely Doylist POV - it makes sense that each case is connected in this series. Nemesis is the connection.
Possibly are/were/will be: Ebenezar, Rashid, the Merlin, OG Merlin, Harry's mother, Thomas, Marcone, Hendrics, Murphy, Molly, Nicodemus, any SC (but particularly LtW and Ancient Mai eventually).
And also, there is an excellent reason backed up by evidence WHY Peabody might have chosen to not infect the SC (assuming he was infected, and that he hasn't infected any of them already). The reason is that it might not have wanted to draw attention to itself (particularly with the Gatekeeper around) and so would only infect any of them as a last resort, despite their high value as targets. Maeve and Leah both failed to infect Mab (on balance of probabilities) and therefore there are clearly limits on how easy it is to infect a target.
Why target these individuals? Well SC for their obvious leverage in the supernatural community. Thomas both perhaps for his proximity to the leadership of the White Court AND potentially Harry. Murphy because of Harry. Molly - because she is Winter Lady and close to Harry. The Denarians - because of their power in the supernatural community. Most of it is pretty obvious.
What might be less obvious is why target the lesser individuals like Sells, Denton, Kravos etc. Perhaps Nemesis has a variety of multi-level intricate goals, perhaps it has a very simple goal. Perhaps it has to do with Harry, perhaps not. But considering Nemesis is considered a sapper, I think it is all about opening fully those big ol' Outer Gates. Then the Outsider forces rush in and destroy everything. And perhaps each individual it infects has a chance to help aid that primary objective.
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Well as stated above by Kindler and others, there is no evidence at all that Mortal's cannot be infected by Nemesis. That is pure speculation, as it isn't even implied in any canon or WOJ.
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
But also, and equally: there is no evidence at all that Mortal's can be infected by Nemesis.
The theory behind it has been explained, and is understandable, but is a poor premise to build off.
Again: equally correct.
I literally think it's a coin toss either way. I see Doylist advantages AND disadvantages to Jim Butcher with either decision; I see in-canon arguments to be made that this or that is evidence one way or the other.
Anything built upon either supposition (mortals' immunity, or vulnerability) is the WAGiest of WAGs, being (imho) grounded on no more than the toss of a coin.
I am, BTW, providing coins (if anyone wants to toss 'em and WAG away!)...
What? No, no, no hint of antiquity, silver or blackening... not at all...
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Well as stated above by Kindler and others, there is no evidence at all that Mortal's cannot be infected by Nemesis. That is pure speculation, as it isn't even implied in any canon or WOJ.
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
But also, and equally: there is no evidence at all that Mortal's can be infected by Nemesis.
There is however in the the person of Elaine and possibly Justin, that if the conditions are
right mortals can be carriers not unlike the knife was, of the infection.
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... There is however in the the person of Elaine and possibly Justin, that if the conditions are right mortals can be carriers not unlike the knife was, of the infection.
Agreed! It's one of my favorite WAGs. I'd argue, in fact, that the Doylist case is VERY strong for Elaine:
- We actually SAW (on-screen!) when Lea got Nemfected. I thing Elaine's story (of Justin's Enthrallment-spell, Harry's duel, and Elaine "breaking semi-free and running away confused and frightened") is actually us seeing, indirectly, Aurora's Nemfection, too.
- Nemfected-Elaine will be hard on Harry... and as we all know, being hard on Harry makes Jim Butcher cackle with maniacal glee.
- Writing critical scenes in ONE book, that we only understand in retrospect in LATER books, is also something that makes Jim Butcher cackle with maniacal glee; I think Elaine's telling is "gleeful" for Jim.
I don't think it's evidence either way, however, as to whether mortals can only be carriers, or can actually be "Nemfected" themselves.
Also, it primarily works for Elaine if Justin was himself a Nemvector; if Justin wasn't the vector for Elaine, then Elaine being a vector becomes vastly less explainable. Either both are Nemvectors, or neither are.
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There is however in the the person of Elaine and possibly Justin, that if the conditions are
right mortals can be carriers not unlike the knife was, of the infection.
Not sure I follow. All I know is that Aurora was nemfected, probably, and Elaine was around Aurora. But we don't know if Elaine took anything (beyond her amulet) to Aurora; maybe she did?
And there were others around Aurora too, like say some highly powerful second-in-command Fae like Talos, and we also have evidence elsewhere of second-in-command Fae infecting Ladies.
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Nemesis may not need an object to spread. It may be possible through some other means.
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Not sure I follow. All I know is that Aurora was nemfected, probably, and Elaine was around Aurora. But we don't know if Elaine took anything (beyond her amulet) to Aurora; maybe she did?
And there were others around Aurora too, like say some highly powerful second-in-command Fae like Talos, and we also have evidence elsewhere of second-in-command Fae infecting Ladies.
In my opinion it is significant that Justin had a connection with the Outsiders as we learned from
HWB in Ghost Story, further that Harry and Elaine were meant to be enforcers. Also significant I think that Elaine ran to the Summer Court and shortly there after Aurora began to act a bit strange.
I believe there is a connection there, also just because a mortal cannot become infected doesn't mean a mortal cannot be a vector for the infection.
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Not sure I follow. All I know is that Aurora was nemfected, probably, and Elaine was around Aurora. But we don't know if Elaine took anything (beyond her amulet) to Aurora; maybe she did?
And there were others around Aurora too, like say some highly powerful second-in-command Fae like Talos, and we also have evidence elsewhere of second-in-command Fae infecting Ladies.
We presume that Nemfection is an Outsider thing. The WAG is based on the theory that mortals can indeed be vectors of Nemfection.
So, what was happening right before Elaine went to the Summerfae? Well two things:
- Harry fought an Outsider Summoned by Justin
- Elaine (says she) was fighting free of Justin's Mind-control
It looks an awful lot like Justin could have Nemfected Elaine with something Outsider-ish, in that! The story Elaine tells story has some holes in it, if you aren't wanting to believe it (Harry wanted to believe Elaine hadn't betrayed him). For example:
- Elaine claimed she was breaking free of Justin's spell; excuse me, but a semi-trained apprentice breaking free from a senior Warden???!?
- Elaine claimed she was still confused and mind-blurred, somewhat under the influence of Justin's spell... and yet, the semi-trained apprentice managed to open a Way to Summer, or to summon the Summer Lady? That takes focus, which is the opposite of her claimed mental impairment.
Moreover, Justin --> Elaine --> Aurora is a known, visible conduit for the Outsiders to get to the Summer Lady. Hypothetically, sure -- it could have been something else. Talos (though we never see any hint of it), or another fae; or some object like the Athame (though no trace of a Summer-Nemfecting artifact is in canon).
So on the Watsonian hand, we have a viable channel that Jim has written, and on the Doylist hand we know this would be dramatic & emotionally-costly for Harry; and on the gripping hand, we have an offscreen / no-evidence hypothesis that "it could have happened this way, maybe."
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We presume that Nemfection is an Outsider thing. The WAG is based on the theory that mortals can indeed be vectors of Nemfection.
Well that's a pretty safe bet. Yes, no one has outright said "This is the Outsider, Nemesis etc". But they hardly need to.
Rashid (who is the Gatekeeper to the Outside), and the Mothers (one of which has a primary purpose as being the power source for fighting Outsiders) both refer to it as the Adversary. They, like Titania, do not refer to it openly by that name (although they do hint that Nemesis is merely ONE of its names). This is perhaps because it is a danger to them as it (like Hades and other beings) can Hear when one of it's Names are used. Making them (though not necessarily the Mothers) targets.
It also shows up by name for the first time in a book that reveals a lot about the fight against the Outsiders, and is primarily about fighting the Outsiders. It appears to both be on Earth (in its hosts - whether controlled or merely carriers, assuming that is possible) AND it is Outside the Outer Gates, as Rashid and the Gates are required to check for it's presence. Harry deduces that it is a sapper, whilst He Who Walks Before (also called Gatebreaker) is a leader designed to smash through enemy lines and lead missions. Titania - Mab's opposite and twin - also knew exactly what it was, I suspect because they both share a certain amount of information from their mantles (and possibly because of their education from the Mothers etc). This information wouldn't be shared unless it was relevant to all Fae, and it is, because the Fae's true purpose is to protect Reality from the Outsiders, and to protect Humanity from itself.
Now there is the smallest amount of room for it to be some Outsider-aligned supernatural. But so far, almost no other Powers work with them willingly. They either seem to get corrupted or hate them equally. As we don't know what Outsiders actually are, this makes it hard to tell who might work with them and what their race/society/team are comprised of (if such terms makes sense in that context). Only those who hate the status quo seem to work with them, and it would appear all in the pursuit of either more power or general chaos. Outsiders seem to be fundamentally different in nature to beings of Reality, and are very scary because of that. They also seem to work together, which is pretty much unheard of for even the most unified groups this side of the Gates.
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
But also, and equally: there is no evidence at all that Mortal's can be infected by Nemesis.
Again: equally correct. *Not quite*
Except for Lily saying so - the only piece of text (canon or WOJ) that actually names individuals that are Mortal. Just remember that this has actually not yet been disproven. Again, everyone has called Lily unreliable etc - but as far as the canon of the books is concerned, what Lily told Harry is still true. Butcher may show us this was a misdirection or red herring but so far he has not. Unless someone can find some WOJ or actual evidence from the books that outright disproves it, then we cannot summarily rule it out.
The Mothers hinted at Aurora, Mab indicated Maeve and flatly told Harry about Leah, Leah told Harry about herself, Maeve accused Mab (but was infected herself), Cat Sith no one knew about until Harry worked it out. WOJ says Archangels by virtue of being Absolute, cannot be infected. It is unclear whether regular Angels can, however. And Harry implies that most of those he assumed were Black Council might actually be infected themselves and are not a formal organization at all by the sum of hosts of a magical sentient virus - which implicates Rosanna and Tessa, Cowl and Kumori, etc.
I literally think it's a coin toss either way. I see Doylist advantages AND disadvantages to Jim Butcher with either decision; I see in-canon arguments to be made that this or that is evidence one way or the other.
Anything built upon either supposition (mortals' immunity, or vulnerability) is the WAGiest of WAGs, being (imho) grounded on no more than the toss of a coin.
I am, BTW, providing coins (if anyone wants to toss 'em and WAG away!)...
What? No, no, no hint of antiquity, silver or blackening... not at all...
I get that, there are excellent reasons to go either way in the story. Time will tell how Jim chose to go, but at this stage nothing is ruled out. I'd love a coin - for purely academic reasons...
There is however in the the person of Elaine and possibly Justin, that if the conditions are
right mortals can be carriers not unlike the knife was, of the infection.
I'm not sure what you are saying here...are you saying that there is evidence for infection, as there is evidence of Justin and/or Elaine being carriers? If so, I would love to hear it. It makes for an excellent theory but afaik there is no evidence that people can merely be carriers. They only thing we know of that was a carrier was the Athame (Morgana's). To answer your later response too - quite right, just because a mortal cannot be infected doesn't mean they cannot be a carrier. HOWEVER - there is no evidence they can be carriers, none in the text and none in WOJ. There is also no evidence that Mortals cannot be infected, text or otherwise. So let's all be clear when we start using absolutes in arguments, and support with appropriate evidence. Far too many theories have started from WAGs being taken as gospel, rather than using the evidence we do have. And yes, it is very significant that Justin has a strong connection to Outsiders. Especially considering that Harry and Elaine were both potential Starborn. And that Elaine ran to the Summer Court right before Aurora gets infected. But none of it is evidence for someone being a carrier of Nemesis.
Also g33k, you are quite probably right in that if Justin wasn't a carrier (assuming a Mortal can be), then it makes it much less likely that Elaine is. And I think you have summed up my exact thoughts on the Elaine being the one who infects Aurora. But then, wouldn't that mean that Justin had been planning things that took place many years later? And what does that say then if Elaine did in fact do it? Who was/is Elaine working for? Is Justin really...dead?
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I'm not sure what you are saying here...are you saying that there is evidence for infection, as there is evidence of Justin and/or Elaine being carriers? If so, I would love to hear it. It makes for an excellent theory but afaik there is no evidence that people can merely be carriers. They only thing we know of that was a carrier was the Athame (Morgana's). To answer your later response too - quite right, just because a mortal cannot be infected doesn't mean they cannot be a carrier. HOWEVER - there is no evidence they can be carriers, none in the text and none in WOJ. There is also no evidence that Mortals cannot be infected, text or otherwise. So let's all be clear when we start using absolutes in arguments, and support with appropriate evidence. Far too many theories have started from WAGs being taken as gospel, rather than using the evidence we do have. And yes, it is very significant that Justin has a strong connection to Outsiders. Especially considering that Harry and Elaine were both potential Starborn. And that Elaine ran to the Summer Court right before Aurora gets infected. But none of it is evidence for someone being a carrier of Nemesis.
I am not a believer in coincidences, this adds up too well to be just that... That doesn't mean that Elaine was a willing carrier, but it doesn't mean that she wasn't used as one, or had any idea she was being used. She was successfully enthralled by Justin, now did that just wear off once he was dead? What HWB said to Harry in his flash back in Ghost Story says there is a lot more to see here, a plan. However it all blew up because Harry, being a starborn, and face it, being Harry, didn't play, even at sixteen.
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I don't think mortals can get Nemfected, mainly b/c if they could, then the Outsiders could have won already. My WAG is this: since mortals have freewill, that give them a certain amount of protection from Outsiders, but there's a catch-22 here. Only mortal magic can summon Outsiders but mortals can't be nemfected. Black magic is a loophole that Outsiders can exploit, so that a person who's done black magic is more willing to do things like summon Outsiders. Maybe that's how people can be carriers, via black magic as opposed to straight up objects.
Though other beings who aren't mortal but have some degree of free will can also exploit loopholes, such as the Red and White Courts of vampires.
If a starborn can be a carrier, it could be entirely down to how much black magic they were exposed to. So for Elaine to be a kind of sleeper agent, either willing or unwilling, could work. It would explain how Aurora got infected. The only tricky thing with this part is just when Aurora got infected, like her plan could have been on her mind before but Elaine inadvertently infecting her just made her act on it?
I think in order for this WAG to work, Meave has to lie to Lily about how the infection works. It'd be a good strategy. Get everyone paranoid and too worried about who could be sick to unite. Though this also depends on how much Titania would have told Lily. Maybe a general outline and then Maeve filled in the gaps with plausible lies.
The people Lily named as Nemfected could have been really close to achieving the outsiders' goals, so maybe it was a distinction without a difference kind of scenario?
Since black magic leaves stains on people, I'd say that a person will always be a carrier so they'd have to be careful for the rest of their lives. But, it probably also has a bit more to it than just performing black magic. So Justin could have done the extra thing with Elaine but Harry dodged a bullet. I tend to doubt that Justin is still alive, but that's mainly b/c I'm not really feeling the 'he was alive the whole time!' idea.
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I think mortals with power can be infected and I think in turncoat the gatekeeper is checking out Harry for exactly that.
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I am not a believer in coincidences, this adds up too well to be just that... That doesn't mean that Elaine was a willing carrier, but it doesn't mean that she wasn't used as one, or had any idea she was being used. She was successfully enthralled by Justin, now did that just wear off once he was dead? What HWB said to Harry in his flash back in Ghost Story says there is a lot more to see here, a plan. However it all blew up because Harry, being a starborn, and face it, being Harry, didn't play, even at sixteen.
Not saying your theory is wrong, Mira. Just saying that it is in fact, a theory. Not a fact. An important distinction. I quite like the theory as it happens. But I am just being clear that one thing is not the other. Does that make sense?
I think in the earlier books I would have said if Justin had died, and sunlight had risen, then the enthrallment would have stopped. However if Justin did not fully die, or he anchored it to something like a person (like Maggie's death curse on Lord Raith...and remember she and Justin were allies once) then probably the enthrallment is still active. Assuming she actually was, in fact, enthralled. We only have Elaine's word for it. Harry just thought she willingly joined Justin. Who knows maybe she did, maybe she was infected. We shall see.
And you are assuming here that He Who Walks Behind's plan did actually backfire. As Lea actually points out in that scene, it takes a very careful approach to make a Wizard think using destruction and violence is okay. Perhaps he just allowed Harry to destroy him. And even if he didn't, the plan was still at the very least partially successful. One thing that is clear is he would have only killed Harry if Harry wasn't useful. A common theme of the books, and especially the monsters, is that if you don't survive their lessons (think Mother Winter to Harry in Cold Days) you deserve to die.
123Chikadee - Fair enough as a theory. And your WAG is interesting. Although wouldn't that mean the Gatekeeper and Winter etc need to be more involved against Black Magic? It seems they are not as concerned with Demon black magic and the Fallen. And just to put it out there - all the supernatural types have some degree of Free Will. Otherwise they would be automatons. WOJ is that even angels had enough Free Will to Fall. And we have seen Uriel exercise his own Will, to a point.
The thing is - Mab knows how the infection happens. And we know it was the Athame. If it were so easy to infect a victim then why go to all that trouble with the Athame? And if people were such easy carriers via merely using Black Magic (as Harry has done btw) then wouldn't way more people be exposed - including Harry?
Arjan - I think the Gatekeeper, amongst others, have been watching Harry since he first was on the radar for such things. Those who really know about what's going on seem to take a keen interest in Harry. And pretty much all of them knew Harry's mother. No one seems as interested in Thomas either. I think the Gatekeeper even as early as Summer Knight may have suspected Harry of being infected. But yes that scene in Turn Coat on the dock (if that is what you are referring to) is a good example.
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I don't think mortals can get Nemfected, mainly b/c if they could, then the Outsiders could have won already. My WAG is this: since mortals have freewill, that give them a certain amount of protection from Outsiders, but there's a catch-22 here. Only mortal magic can summon Outsiders but mortals can't be nemfected. Black magic is a loophole that Outsiders can exploit, so that a person who's done black magic is more willing to do things like summon Outsiders. Maybe that's how people can be carriers, via black magic as opposed to straight up objects.
Though other beings who aren't mortal but have some degree of free will can also exploit loopholes, such as the Red and White Courts of vampires.
If a starborn can be a carrier, it could be entirely down to how much black magic they were exposed to. So for Elaine to be a kind of sleeper agent, either willing or unwilling, could work. It would explain how Aurora got infected. The only tricky thing with this part is just when Aurora got infected, like her plan could have been on her mind before but Elaine inadvertently infecting her just made her act on it?
I think in order for this WAG to work, Meave has to lie to Lily about how the infection works. It'd be a good strategy. Get everyone paranoid and too worried about who could be sick to unite. Though this also depends on how much Titania would have told Lily. Maybe a general outline and then Maeve filled in the gaps with plausible lies.
The people Lily named as Nemfected could have been really close to achieving the outsiders' goals, so maybe it was a distinction without a difference kind of scenario?
Since black magic leaves stains on people, I'd say that a person will always be a carrier so they'd have to be careful for the rest of their lives. But, it probably also has a bit more to it than just performing black magic. So Justin could have done the extra thing with Elaine but Harry dodged a bullet. I tend to doubt that Justin is still alive, but that's mainly b/c I'm not really feeling the 'he was alive the whole time!' idea.
Didn't Maeve indeed lie to Lily? That is the impression I got during the showdown in Cold Days. Lily was such an innocent and so unsuited for the role she was forced into when the mantel of Summer Lady entered her body. Maeve played her like a harp.
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Not saying your theory is wrong, Mira. Just saying that it is in fact, a theory. Not a fact. An important distinction. I quite like the theory as it happens. But I am just being clear that one thing is not the other. Does that make sense?
I think in the earlier books I would have said if Justin had died, and sunlight had risen, then the enthrallment would have stopped. However if Justin did not fully die, or he anchored it to something like a person (like Maggie's death curse on Lord Raith...and remember she and Justin were allies once) then probably the enthrallment is still active. Assuming she actually was, in fact, enthralled. We only have Elaine's word for it. Harry just thought she willingly joined Justin. Who knows maybe she did, maybe she was infected. We shall see.
We see with Peabody and Lucio that the brain manipulation actually needs maintenance. The mind will fight back, the locks won't hold forever.
Also I do not think that Justin, even with Bob's guidance, was as skilled as Peabody. If he just went for loyalty and violence then the loyalty bit would have become quite meaningless by now even if it held which I think is unlikely.
And you are assuming here that He Who Walks Behind's plan did actually backfire. As Lea actually points out in that scene, it takes a very careful approach to make a Wizard think using destruction and violence is okay. Perhaps he just allowed Harry to destroy him. And even if he didn't, the plan was still at the very least partially successful. One thing that is clear is he would have only killed Harry if Harry wasn't useful. A common theme of the books, and especially the monsters, is that if you don't survive their lessons (think Mother Winter to Harry in Cold Days) you deserve to die.
123Chikadee - Fair enough as a theory. And your WAG is interesting. Although wouldn't that mean the Gatekeeper and Winter etc need to be more involved against Black Magic? It seems they are not as concerned with Demon black magic and the Fallen. And just to put it out there - all the supernatural types have some degree of Free Will. Otherwise they would be automatons. WOJ is that even angels had enough Free Will to Fall. And we have seen Uriel exercise his own Will, to a point.
The thing is - Mab knows how the infection happens. And we know it was the Athame. If it were so easy to infect a victim then why go to all that trouble with the Athame? And if people were such easy carriers via merely using Black Magic (as Harry has done btw) then wouldn't way more people be exposed - including Harry?
Infection and possession are really overlapping concepts. You could say that Harry was infected by Lasciel's shadow. Or possessed. To be possessed by Nemesis the outsider power has to get in and mingle with your own spirit. Using the power of the dagger probably triggers that.
The dagger is a safer carrier than a person and Mab keeps it on her person to guard it.
Arjan - I think the Gatekeeper, amongst others, have been watching Harry since he first was on the radar for such things. Those who really know about what's going on seem to take a keen interest in Harry. And pretty much all of them knew Harry's mother. No one seems as interested in Thomas either. I think the Gatekeeper even as early as Summer Knight may have suspected Harry of being infected. But yes that scene in Turn Coat on the dock (if that is what you are referring to) is a good example.
Yes, that one.
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Infection and possession are really overlapping concepts. You could say that Harry was infected by Lasciel's shadow. Or possessed. To be possessed by Nemesis the outsider power has to get in and mingle with your own spirit. Using the power of the dagger probably triggers that.
Harry is unique though, what you say is true up to the point with again, Butters, our understated
hero, was able to get Harry back to reality as to what he was really seeing. Once Harry realized he was influenced by the shadow of Lasciel, he was not only able to resist it but use it to his advantage.
Not perfectly though, his personality was being affected, which Murphy pointed out to him.. Again he was able to modify the effect. Though while yes, you can say Harry was infected with the shadow, for a short time possessed to seeing and working it's reality, the strength of his will was able to produce antibodies against it ultimately turning it to his advantage.
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Harry is unique though, what you say is true up to the point with again, Butters, our understated
hero, was able to get Harry back to reality as to what he was really seeing. Once Harry realized he was influenced by the shadow of Lasciel, he was not only able to resist it but use it to his advantage.
Not perfectly though, his personality was being affected, which Murphy pointed out to him.. Again he was able to modify the effect. Though while yes, you can say Harry was infected with the shadow, for a short time possessed to seeing and working it's reality, the strength of his will was able to produce antibodies against it ultimately turning it to his advantage.
These infections can be fought if the host is made aware of it. That is not unique for Harry. Sanya rejected the coin. Cat Sith tried to reject it when Harry made him aware and Nemesis was forced to take direct control which probably takes more effort and is less efficient and Lea even reasserted control with Mab’s help. Being aware of it is the first step.
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These infections can be fought if the host is made aware of it. That is not unique for Harry. Sanya rejected the coin. Cat Sith tried to reject it when Harry made him aware and Nemesis was forced to take direct control which probably takes more effort and is less efficient and Lea even reasserted control with Mab’s help. Being aware of it is the first step.
I think we have to be careful when trying to equate the Coins to Nemesis infection. Harry is unique because yes, Sanya rejected the coin, but that has happened before, but before Harry, no one had ever been able to reject the Shadow of one of the Fallen once it had taken up residence in the brain of the potential host, that is what sets him apart, Uriel even said that and why Michael had such a hard time believing that Harry had thrown off the Shadow. Point is Cat Sith failed.
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Harry didn't reject Lash, she chose to die to protect him and she was burned out of his brain.
Edit
That sounds ugly. Maybe better this. Harry resists Lash's plea's, even at the end when she acts to her nature, and tries to get Harry to summon the coin. But she commits an act of love to preserve both him and their child, and makes a choice to be free. So rather than cast her out, he learned to care about her.
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We see with Peabody and Lucio that the brain manipulation actually needs maintenance. The mind will fight back, the locks won't hold forever.
Also I do not think that Justin, even with Bob's guidance, was as skilled as Peabody. If he just went for loyalty and violence then the loyalty bit would have become quite meaningless by now even if it held which I think is unlikely.
That's interesting, as Bob actually says the opposite when discussing it with Harry in Blood Rites:
"A fine thrall is so controlled the might not even know that they're a thrall at at all, and it lasts long term"
"Like what DuMorne did to Elaine"
"Uh, I guess so, yeah. Like that. That kind of thing takes a subtle hand, though. Enthralling someone also requires a lot of time and a certain amount of empathy, ..."
Blood Rites, chapter 27, p161.
So I bolded the relevant bid, and underlined the hint (imho). So it seems according to Bob's magical theory, Elaine could have become enthralled and still be one, and may not even know that she is. What Peabody did smacks of a different flavor, something more overt and nasty - not far off what the Black Court Vampires do. He did something cheaper and nastier, a potion rather than a series of spells (which is how Elaine describes enthrallment in Summer Knight), which allowed him to achieve a similar outcome without the requirements of empathy etc. Even though it was small amounts and over a long period of time - he wasn't actually trying to enthrall the senior council. He was merely trying to nudge their decisions. As for Luccio, if memory serves me the reason he actually forcefully controlled her was that she might have stumbled on to him and forced his hand AND that she was now in a younger body (which overcame the limits of her age, whereas an older brain would probably have just broken). Luccio's reaction was FAR more similar to Nelson (Molly's boyfriend in Proven Guilty) and Molly's friend Rosy.
And I can't remember where I read it, but I am sure that Justin was a skilled psychomancer or mind mage. I think it was in the Paranet Papers. Something about Simon's apprentice (referring to Justin). In any case, I would be willing to bet that Justin ticked enough boxes in order to create a fine thrall (he genuinely did seem to empathize with Harry at least on one occasion) so he quite likely did care about them, he had the knowledge and skill (at least to some extent, especially with Bob's help), and whilst we know very little of his magical style I would say it was a good mix of Harry and Elaine (if only for the fact that he taught them quite a bit, and if he was a mind mage that does suggest more subtle magical depth).
Infection and possession are really overlapping concepts. You could say that Harry was infected by Lasciel's shadow. Or possessed. To be possessed by Nemesis the outsider power has to get in and mingle with your own spirit. Using the power of the dagger probably triggers that.
The dagger is a safer carrier than a person and Mab keeps it on her person to guard it.
Hmmm I get what you are saying here. I think though generally when people refer to possession (in the magical sense) you can be fully or partially. Either the entity possessing the victim is in the driver's seat fully, or there is a struggle for control. Whereas when people talk about infection (at least in the medical sense) you either are infected or you are not. There is not such thing as a partial infection, more about the degree. And you have to remember, whilst Nemesis may be old, lots of those who see the change currently in the supernatural world see it as new and dangerous. Which Nemesis at least as a partial role in. It seems to be of a different nature to the regular sort of dark magic/evil. At least that is how it is written.
I am not sure then that Harry was "infected" by Lash. What Harry experience is pretty much a straight-up demonic possession. In terms of literary prose, you could say infected, but the reality is that possession works best. He wasn't always in control of himself, he was constantly influenced (even subconsciously), saw things that weren't "real", gained unnatural powers etc. Nemesis might also do those things too of course. One similarity is the ability to spread to multiple targets. We don't know the limits of this for Fallen or Nemesis, but Lasciel was simultaneously affecting Harry via Lash and Hannah Ascher (through the Coin).
Mab did keep the Athame on her person for a book or two - but no mention of it is made after that. Perhaps she contained or eliminated the threat. It was interesting that she did that considering she would have known what it was, and what it had carried. I do agree, using the power of the dagger could well be the trigger. Seems like a good fit. Although in fairness only the Choice to even touch the Coin is enough. So there is that.
But your point doesn't really answer my question which was that if Black Magic does taint the user or whatever, why then are so many more people not infected by Nemesis - including Harry? The answer to my mind is that Nemesis is not so easy to summon or infect someone with. It has to be summoned (likely by Mortals), and then probably put into a vessel (potentially a person, but at the least an object that likely is magical in nature). And perhaps once it spreads to a Host, then it can spread itself to another Host (it is implied to be able to do this), except we have no idea how it does that or the length of time required etc.
I think we have to be careful when trying to equate the Coins to Nemesis infection. Harry is unique because yes, Sanya rejected the coin, but that has happened before, but before Harry, no one had ever been able to reject the Shadow of one of the Fallen once it had taken up residence in the brain of the potential host, that is what sets him apart, Uriel even said that and why Michael had such a hard time believing that Harry had thrown off the Shadow. Point is Cat Sith failed.
Didn't Harry speculate to Michael that likely the Church wouldn't know if no one had ever rejected a Shadow? Especially as they are so compromised, and that Nicodemus makes a point of destroying records about him and the Fallen every few hundred years? I don't remember Uriel saying that Harry was the only person to ever reject a Coin...do you mind finding where he said that?
As for Cat Sith rejecting Nemesis...apples and oranges. Harry is a Mortal with the full-range of Free Will. Cat Sith is not. Not to mention, Harry already seems to be exceptionally strong at resisting and self-aware enough to achieve what most Mortals might not. Not to mention we have no idea how the possession of Nemesis differs to that of a Shadow of the Fallen. Nemesis could well be FAR stronger. Or not. Who knows. Not to mention that Maeve and Aurora couldn't beat Nemesis, even though they are Faerie Queens (even if they are the least of them, still Immortals). Even Lea (who's only superior in the Winter Court is Mab herself, excluding the Mothers of course) failed to beat Nemesis. It is even implied that Mab wouldn't have been able to do so. Part of rejecting such a thing might include being Mortal. We have no idea how Mab freed Lea of it (assuming she did...) but Lea stated that even thinking about what had happened to her would make her vulnerable again to it. So perhaps once touched you are never truly free. Like Harry's mark on his Soul left by He Who Walks Behind.
Harry didn't reject Lash, she chose to die to protect him and she was burned out of his brain.
Edit
That sounds ugly. Maybe better this. Harry resists Lash's plea's, even at the end when she acts to her nature, and tries to get Harry to summon the coin. But she commits an act of love to preserve both him and their child, and makes a choice to be free. So rather than cast her out, he learned to care about her.
A nice sentiment Morris, and of course Lash and Lasciel are different beings especially by that book. Immortals cannot change as easily as mortals and doing so effectively robs them of their identity. As Lash had tried to change Harry via his subconscious, it changed her right back to the point where she became a being able to make that sacrifice out of love, to protect Harry and free him from the psychic assault - which had the (not necessarily unintended) consequence of a child and Jim has also hinted that Harry's suicide in Changes was influenced by that decision (they don't call her the Webweaver and Temptress for nothing).
But I am not so sure they are mutually exclusive things. He had certainly been resisting her power up until that point. Perhaps ridding oneself of the Shadow requires such a thing. The only other method that is known to work in the canon is giving up your powers. And one wonders if things like sacrifice, love, faith etc are the keys to rejecting a possession. I always found it interesting Harry never went to get an Exorcism. Perhaps that would have killed his powers too, perhaps Harry secretly didn't want to.
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Harry didn't reject Lash, she chose to die to protect him and she was burned out of his brain.
Edit
That sounds ugly. Maybe better this. Harry resists Lash's plea's, even at the end when she acts to her nature, and tries to get Harry to summon the coin. But she commits an act of love to preserve both him and their child, and makes a choice to be free. So rather than cast her out, he learned to care about her.
But the point is, once he understood what she was, he was able to resist her and eventually change her to being an asset and helping him.
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In a very real sense what Michael said was true. No one had ever rejected the shadow. And neither had Harry. And as long as it remained Harry was at risk. And Nic tried to use the shadow in Small Favor to disable Harry. It took and outsider attack to kill Lash.
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In a very real sense what Michael said was true. No one had ever rejected the shadow. And neither had Harry. And as long as it remained Harry was at risk. And Nic tried to use the shadow in Small Favor to disable Harry. It took and outsider attack to kill Lash.
The Shadow was already gone by Small Favor... Nic tried and was shocked because no one before Harry had ever been able to be rid of a Shadow once it took up residence in the host's brain. Yes, Harry did reject the Shadow of Lasciel, he got cooperation with Lash, who was no longer the same entity.. But as pointed out, when Harry told her he'd rather have his brain turned to jello rather than accept the coin, that was rejection plain and simple.
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Again...Harry points out that there is no way Michael could no for sure that no one had EVER rejected a Shadow. Michael is not all knowing. Nicodemus destroys records all the time.
Whether Harry did or did not or whatever variation of that is somewhat irrelevant.
And Harry would have taken a Coin if no Winter Knight or Darkhallow (which would have required mass death)...Harry would have more likely become a Denarian than a Necro-God.
Nic was shocked because the Shadow wasn't in control, just to be clear. He was shocked because he never thought someone like Dresden would resist. Michael, sure. Sanya, yep. Shiro, no doubt. Dresden has always been, especially in his own mind, gray in the moral sense. He isn't the White Knight.
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In a very real sense what Michael said was true. No one had ever rejected the shadow. And neither had Harry.
Yes, Harry did reject the shadow. Every day! This was an incredible feat, unknown to the Church and even (if Lash was to believed) unknown to Lasciel herself! Do not diminish this achievement just because it wasn't a complete purge, or whatever... it is, apparently, unparalleled in all of Creation!
What Harry didn't do -- couldn't do -- was rid himself of the shadow.
What could happen -- what DID happen -- was the shadow, trying to change Harry, became changed itself.
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He may have rejected what Lash was selling but he couldn't reject the Shadow since she was a part of him. You might as well say I reject my brain. In this case rejected equals rid. This is the context.
“Then either the shadow is still there,” Michael said, “still twisting your thoughts. Still whispering to you. Or you’re lying to me about taking up the coin. Those are the only options.”
Michael erred in stating it as an absolute. But he is discussing presence rather than resistance. In White Knight, in the cave during the final fight, Harry uses Hellfire.My will lashed out, leashed to Lasciel's Hellfire, and rushed upon the ghouls, exploding in a sphere of raw force that blazed with flickers of sulfurous flame.
And even in that final moment, Lash is still selling, until the clock runs out and she has to choose.
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What could happen -- what DID happen -- was the shadow, trying to change Harry, became changed itself.
Point is, it was no longer Lasciel... She became Lash. Lasciel, herself wasn't always evil, there was a time before the rebellion and the fall when she was like any other angel. A part of her still longs for what she can no longer have, her shadow expressed that to Harry in a couple of ways. Once in Proven Guilty when Harry was exhausted in St Marys and the Shadow still more Lasciel than Lash, exclaims with some emotion that she had forgotten how beautiful it could be in such a place. Another when she helped Harry with his music, again regret since the fall she no longer was able to make music. Harry is a flawed and complex man, he is no goodie two shoes as we all know, but what is repeatedly said about him, is that he has a good heart, he is like his father in that way. That is how he resisted and ultimately changed Lasciel to Lash by exposing her to what she had lost, she ceased to feel bitter and angry about it, she felt only regret, in the end it was she who rejected Lasciel.
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... In this case rejected equals rid...
Ah.
In that case we'll have to agree to disagree.
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I wish I understood exactly what the disagreement was. I guess it's a matter of semantics. While I agree that Harry resisted Lash until she died, at no time did he reject her. In fact he used her and what she had to give him, while rejecting her inducements to take up the coin. And he invested enough emotion into who she became to produce a child. However as you wish.
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I wish I understood exactly what the disagreement was. I guess it's a matter of semantics. While I agree that Harry resisted Lash until she died, at no time did he reject her. In fact he used her and what she had to give him, while rejecting her inducements to take up the coin. And he invested enough emotion into who she became to produce a child. However as you wish.
He was able to resist her, his arguments against some of her tactics, though he also used her, changed her over time. Being inside his brain changed her because it made her remember the good things before Lasciel fell, miss them, in the end she agreed with Harry's rejection of what Lasciel was selling, and in turn she rejected it and paid the ultimate price for it.
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Yes, Harry did reject the shadow. Every day! This was an incredible feat, unknown to the Church and even (if Lash was to believed) unknown to Lasciel herself! Do not diminish this achievement just because it wasn't a complete purge, or whatever... it is, apparently, unparalleled in all of Creation!
What Harry didn't do -- couldn't do -- was rid himself of the shadow.
What could happen -- what DID happen -- was the shadow, trying to change Harry, became changed itself.
g33k, where are you getting this information?
I mean he resisted Lasciel's influence to a point (and I am going to use the word resist instead of reject as I think it is closer to what you mean) but he never fully cast her out (reject). Like technically you could use the word reject, but it is more accurate to use resist. Why? Because Harry did accept Lash's help. He Chose to touch the coin instead of picking up little Harry. He Chose to use Hellfire, which allowed Lash to speak with him. He Chose to use her eidetic (photographic) memory. He constantly kept Choosing to use Hellfire. Not exactly rejecting every day, as you put it. He may not have allowed for full possession, or even to work with her actively, most of the time. But he did some of the time, especially in combat (desperation or not).
Where was it EVER said that this "feat" was unparalleled? Which isn't much. As Michael implies, wizards have resisted by giving up their power. Sanya gave up his Coin. Hardly makes Dresden's trial unique. Dresden did resist the Shadow for a long time, longer than most, but where was it said he achieved something greater than any other?
AND AGAIN - As Harry points out it is arrogant in the extreme if the Church believe NO ONE EVER HAS RID THEMSELVES OF A SHADOW. How could the Church know? Their records are destroyed almost systematically, every few years!
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I mean he resisted Lasciel's influence to a point (and I am going to use the word resist instead of reject as I think it is closer to what you mean)
Well... I'm not actually attached to "reject," and can work with "resist" for purposes of the conversation. But I'm going by the dictionary, and by my reading of the books:
- Merriam-Webster: "to refuse to accept, consider, submit to, take for some purpose, or use" (example of use: "reject the suggestion")
- Cambridge English Dictionary (rejection): "the act of refusing to accept, use, or believe someone or something"
- I'd check the OED, but it seems to be paywalled.
I think these are pretty spot-on for the vast majority of Harry-v-Lash interactions. He didn't reject everything, in every situation. But he rejected the overwhelming majority of them, and ALWAYS rejected the option of taking up the Coin. There's a kinda-sorta exception for Hellfire -- Lash snuck it into his magic without Harry even understanding it, and (AFAICT) he wasn't ABLE to use his magic without invoking Hellfire; true, he could have abandoned magic... but we know he won't give up his magic, it's too much a part of his identity.
edit: I don't think the eidetic-memory thing counts, exactly. That's a human thing, and it was running on Harry's brain, so Harry was just using his own brain's capacity in a way he hadn't previously been able to. OTOH, I've got to grant the ancient languages thing -- Ghoul, Whamp-Etruscan, etc.
Later on, I think he was able to use more (or less) depending on what he wanted; but I'm unclear that he was EVER able to stop using it, until Lash finally gave up (and sacrificed herself).
Because Harry did accept Lash's help. He Chose to touch the coin instead of picking up little Harry. He Chose to use Hellfire, which allowed Lash to speak with him. He Chose to use her eidetic (photographic) memory. He constantly kept Choosing to use Hellfire. Not exactly rejecting every day, as you put it. He may not have allowed for full possession, or even to work with her actively, most of the time. But he did some of the time, especially in combat (desperation or not).
He did choose to pick up the coin, and he owned up to that Choice as a meaningful and bad one. In other words, he repented, and tried to atone.
Lash infected his magic with her Hellfire; NOT his choice. He realized what had happened, but didn't know how to fix it.
As for his choice to use Hellfire "letting her" talk to him? I think that was a classic Fallen Lie! Here's my logic:
- Lasciel's Shadow makes this claim in chapter 25, as Harry is dreaming. "You made the conscious choice" to use Hellfire earlier that day, "and as a result, I can now appear to your conscious mind." Please note, it's his dreaming mind, not his conscious mind; so already a lie.
- Where did he use it? It was in chapter 17, when Harry used Hellfire (specifically and intentionally) to bolster his mental defenses against Corpsetaker's assault. I don't think he was ABLE to keep Hellfire out of his Fuego (and sometimes Forzare) magic, so he wasn't -- quite -- "choosing" to use it there.
- But in chapter 16, and the prior day in chapter 7 (both occurring before his fight with Corpsetaker) Harry had quite extensive interactions with Sheila... and that was his conscious mind!
So I conclude that the Shadow was able to contact him whenever it wanted, and chose its own time and manner.
Where was it EVER said that this "feat" was unparalleled? Which isn't much. As Michael implies, wizards have resisted by giving up their power. Sanya gave up his Coin. Hardly makes Dresden's trial unique. Dresden did resist the Shadow for a long time, longer than most, but where was it said he achieved something greater than any other?
Apologies if I was unclear! I wasn't talking about surrendering the Coin. I was talking about the Shadow: The "unparalleled feat" was operating for so long with the Shadow trying to convince him, neither taking up the Coin nor turning it over and renouncing his powers.
Nobody had ever done that.
Yes, we know the Church's records are incomplete, but they're extensive; and there was no hint in them. Nicodemus was confident enough that the Shadow could control Harry that he turned his back on Harry at a critical moment; an extraordinary error neither Nic nor Anduriel would've made, if either thought it possible for Harry to be free.
Finally, we have Lash's testimony herself, in White Night. This is the book where the Shadow is finally shaken and doubtful, where Harry's influence is becoming clear, and ultimately (in chater 41) sacrifices herself for Harry. But in chapter 34, she admits it...
Harry: "How many shadows like you have ever stayed in a host like me for more than a few weeks, huh? Longer than three years?"
Lash: "Never."
So this is everything Lasciel knows -- all of her own prior Shadows, plus all cases of every other Denarian Shadows that she knows of. Was she lying? Maybe (it's hard to tell with the Fallen!). But I think not: all she had to do, to undermine Harry's confidence and bolster her own argument, was to coolly claim it was "unusual, but hardly rare" (or some such). Instead, this chapter shows us Lash being uncertain, struggling to resist HARRY'S suasion, and generally speaking frankly with him. Why would she lie in such a way as to strengthen Harry's will to resist & weaken her own arguments?
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He did choose to pick up the coin, and he owned up to that Choice as a meaningful and bad one. In other words, he repented, and tried to atone.
In my opinion Harry underestimated the power of the coins. He still thought he had the strongest will power on the planet. He did make a poor choice as Michael pointed out, picking up little Harry would have saved him as much as picking up the coin. However picking up the coin isn't the same as accepting the coin. He never did that, he also misguidedly thought the burying it and putting a magical circle around it would confine the shadow. That was his biggest mistake and he
might have been lost to it had it not been for Butters. Once he found out, the resistance began, though again he let himself be seduced to a degree by the power of hell fire plus Lasciel's knowledge not realizing that it was gradually changing him. Credit Murphy for sitting him down and his coming to his senses. So it was a near thing, but Harry had drawn lines he'd not cross and eventually changing Lasciel to Lash, his choice of a jello brain or death over the choice of the coin was the final straw for her. If she was to die, she chose to reject Lasciel/coin, and chose to die saving Harry. So yes, he and her together did reject the coin and what it stands for.
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Well... I'm not actually attached to "reject," and can work with "resist" for purposes of the conversation. But I'm going by the dictionary, and by my reading of the books:
- Merriam-Webster: "to refuse to accept, consider, submit to, take for some purpose, or use" (example of use: "reject the suggestion")
- Cambridge English Dictionary (rejection): "the act of refusing to accept, use, or believe someone or something"
- I'd check the OED, but it seems to be paywalled.
Well for a start, Merriam-Webster...I won't get into it but wouldn't start using it in academia is all I am saying.
But those definitions sort of prove my point. Harry did use, and consider using, Lash/Lasciel. He also believed her on several occasions. I am not, nor I think is anyone, saying that he didn't reject her influence most of the time. But completely reject her whole self? No, he never did that. He Chose to keep his power. He Chose to wrestle with her in his mind. Now whether that is good or evil or anything else is impossible to know really. But it does say a lot about Dresden, both good and bad. At the very least, it smacks of arrogance. Most people would do everything in their power to rid themselves of demonic influence, or embrace it. But Harry chose to believe his willpower (as Mira rightly points out) was so incredible that he could do what few others could. Now he may have been partially right, but a more humble person even if they had Harry's willpower or greater more likely would have gone for help and made the sacrifice in order to be free.
I think these are pretty spot-on for the vast majority of Harry-v-Lash interactions. He didn't reject everything, in every situation. But he rejected the overwhelming majority of them, and ALWAYS rejected the option of taking up the Coin. There's a kinda-sorta exception for Hellfire -- Lash snuck it into his magic without Harry even understanding it, and (AFAICT) he wasn't ABLE to use his magic without invoking Hellfire; true, he could have abandoned magic... but we know he won't give up his magic, it's too much a part of his identity.
edit: I don't think the eidetic-memory thing counts, exactly. That's a human thing, and it was running on Harry's brain, so Harry was just using his own brain's capacity in a way he hadn't previously been able to. OTOH, I've got to grant the ancient languages thing -- Ghoul, Whamp-Etruscan, etc.
I agree it is exceptional that he didn't take up the Coin. I also think if he had, he wouldn't have resisted or rejected Lasciel for nearly as long as Lash. Lash was just a shadow. The real deal would have been much worse, and Harry knew it.
But I don't think she snuck the magic in there. That would violate Free Will. Harry accepted that, even chose to access it even if he didn't entirely understand what he was doing. It may not have been an informed choice but there was a choice. Him choosing to not give up his magic is also a choice, regardless of his identity. He had the option.
But as we know, the Fallen don't really give their hosts *more* magical power, just unlock what is in them by feeding their vices. Which annoys me, because it didn't always seem like that in the series but the latest book basically says that (when Harry and Hannah are talking during their duel). And it doesn't explain really how their combat forms or Anduriel's shadow magic work...unless it sort of is like the Alphas in that they know a sort of spell just for that.
So the argument that the photographic memory is"just" a human thing doesn't really work...as essentially everything the Fallen "grant" is really just unlocking the potential in the human. In fact - it almost seems that is exactly how those sort of power-ups work. The Winter Knight mantle exactly. Unless you trade in your mortal/human nature and become an entirely supernatural creature. I think the language thing was Harry accessing Lasciel's knowledge. Harry never really knew that language, he was just borrowing her mind. In terms of mechanics.
Later on, I think he was able to use more (or less) depending on what he wanted; but I'm unclear that he was EVER able to stop using it, until Lash finally gave up (and sacrificed herself).
He did choose to pick up the coin, and he owned up to that Choice as a meaningful and bad one. In other words, he repented, and tried to atone.
Lash infected his magic with her Hellfire; NOT his choice. He realized what had happened, but didn't know how to fix it.
I mean, sure. He was able to control it once he figured out it was happening. Which is still choosing to use it. There is of course an obvious way to stop using Hellfire - don't use magic. Pretty simple.
But it WAS his choice. He chose to touch the coin, he chose to access Lash, his choices led him to Hellfire. No way around it. He could have not cast spells, not touched the coin, not accessed Lash. But he did. Unfortunately, in Butcher's world, that counts as a choice. A compromised one, but no less a defined choice.
And not so sure that he repented. He felt bad. He regretted it. But he never really asked for atonement. He tried to rectify his mistake, but he didn't try everything. And when Michael gave him his only real option, he chose not to take it. He got "lucky" that Lash committed suicide (assuming it was pure chance that she "died"...and his influence changing her helped create that "luck")
As for his choice to use Hellfire "letting her" talk to him? I think that was a classic Fallen Lie! Here's my logic:
- Lasciel's Shadow makes this claim in chapter 25, as Harry is dreaming. "You made the conscious choice" to use Hellfire earlier that day, "and as a result, I can now appear to your conscious mind." Please note, it's his dreaming mind, not his conscious mind; so already a lie.
- Where did he use it? It was in chapter 17, when Harry used Hellfire (specifically and intentionally) to bolster his mental defenses against Corpsetaker's assault. I don't think he was ABLE to keep Hellfire out of his Fuego (and sometimes Forzare) magic, so he wasn't -- quite -- "choosing" to use it there.
- But in chapter 16, and the prior day in chapter 7 (both occurring before his fight with Corpsetaker) Harry had quite extensive interactions with Sheila... and that was his conscious mind!
So I conclude that the Shadow was able to contact him whenever it wanted, and chose its own time and manner.
Well maybe it was a lie, but where was the angelic intervention to balance the scales? That is precisely what Uriel's job, and his department is for.
But I don't think it was. For a start, if we start assuming dreams are "lies" then Malcolm Dresden in Harry's dream was a lie. Which I think has been confirmed that it wasn't. But just because something happens in your head doesn't make it not real. Your head is precisely where you filter and process all the information your body receives. And Lash was referring to the fact that he was able to have a conversation with her at all. Before that she was in his subconscious. She isn't talking about his state of being asleep or awake.
The choice to use Hellfire was made earlier than that. He made it when he chose to touch that coin. Like entering a room full of high-levels of radiation, you are not choosing for it to poison you or enter your system, but by choosing to enter that room you have accepted that your environment may change and it may not be the same as the room you left - whether or not you know the room is full of radiation. And again, he could also have chosen to not use magic. He could have fought, and probably died, as a mortal.
Shiela was the product of him picking up Lasciel's coin. He accepted that outcome by touching it. He may not have been aware it would happen like that, but that doesn't change that he put himself in a situation where he thought he had to pick up the coin. The whole series, especially in the latest few books, is about how a mortal creates it's own reality through the choices that it makes.
Apologies if I was unclear! I wasn't talking about surrendering the Coin. I was talking about the Shadow: The "unparalleled feat" was operating for so long with the Shadow trying to convince him, neither taking up the Coin nor turning it over and renouncing his powers.
Nobody had ever done that.
Fair enough, I did misunderstand you there. Although it doesn't prove it was unparalleled. Just unheard of and rare.
Yes, we know the Church's records are incomplete, but they're extensive; and there was no hint in them. Nicodemus was confident enough that the Shadow could control Harry that he turned his back on Harry at a critical moment; an extraordinary error neither Nic nor Anduriel would've made, if either thought it possible for Harry to be free.
Actually that is a essentially a false position (on the part of the Church). They believe that their records are extensive. But how would they know what they don't know? Depending on how thoroughly Nic wipes the records, and who he has eliminated with that knowledge, they might have no idea how much they are missing. Think about when Mab messed with Harry's mind and removed his knowledge of fire magic and took his blasting rod, or when Molly wiped the memory of planning his suicide. Harry didn't even know what he was missing, or what had happened. Who knows what else has happened in his head.
Nicodemus is arrogant. Like many of Harry's foes, he has constantly underestimated Dresden's want to be "good". They also underestimate Harry's willpower and strength. Because they are not like him, because so few are, they fail to really understand his deeper nature. And it becomes their downfall. This is a key part of the series. Nicodemus, and those like him, truly believe everyone else is as bad as they are and will succumb to evil because they themselves failed the test.
I admit I do find it curious that Anduriel didn't intervene at all during the fight in Small Favor. But I have a theory. Whether Anduriel believed Lash, or Lasciel, wasn't present at all doesn't really matter. I think the Denarian-Fallen are like the One Ring. They betray their charges when it suits them, perhaps when they need them most. I think the Denarian-Fallen are the same plot device as the Rings of Power, specifically like the Nine Rings, in Lord of the Rings. Jim is a BIG Lord of the Rings fan. From a narrative and story crafting perspective, they essentially function the same way. I think Anduriel chose not to help Nicodemus, as the truth is all of the Fallen despise mortals for having the totally Free Will that they were denied. I think Anduriel doesn't really like working with Nicodemus really, it is just convenience. What is 2000 years to a being older than the universe? A blink of an eye. And yet they are so limited that I think they are much more angry than the Fallen in Hell, perhaps for other reasons not clear. Lucifer seemed to think that those 30 Fallen were the most likely to stab him in the back. Perhaps they are nihilists.
Finally, we have Lash's testimony herself, in White Night. This is the book where the Shadow is finally shaken and doubtful, where Harry's influence is becoming clear, and ultimately (in chater 41) sacrifices herself for Harry. But in chapter 34, she admits it...
Harry: "How many shadows like you have ever stayed in a host like me for more than a few weeks, huh? Longer than three years?"
Lash: "Never."
So this is everything Lasciel knows -- all of her own prior Shadows, plus all cases of every other Denarian Shadows that she knows of. Was she lying? Maybe (it's hard to tell with the Fallen!). But I think not: all she had to do, to undermine Harry's confidence and bolster her own argument, was to coolly claim it was "unusual, but hardly rare" (or some such). Instead, this chapter shows us Lash being uncertain, struggling to resist HARRY'S suasion, and generally speaking frankly with him. Why would she lie in such a way as to strengthen Harry's will to resist & weaken her own arguments?
Oh I don't think she was lying. I think no one had ever resisted her for so long. That hurt her pride, her ego. I mean she is known for her ability to tempt, even amongst the Fallen.
But she could have been wrong. We only know about the Denarian-Fallen. We know very little about the Fallen that are in Hell. Harry possibly did resist her longer than any other victim. But did he resist longer than an other mortal to any of the other Fallen, Denarian-bound or otherwise? Who can say. There is only scant info for 2000 years. And one more thing, if she really was a good temptress, that whole scene actually feeds Harry's ego and she should have known it. If she did all that to convince him that he won, he might actually let his guard down. But that's another theory.
Mira - quite right. Harry did underestimate the Coins. And he is arrogant enough to believe that he could do it on his own, and that if he didn't he was morally weak. Michael even chastises him of this at the end of Cold Days (about his deal with Mab). I believe Thomas made a similar point at one stage, reminding Harry that even though he (thomas) is himself a monster but he manages it. Harry has a pathological need to believe he is morally good, and he must prove it to himself. Anything less, to his mind, makes him evil. Which is absurd. He sets a higher standard for himself than is reasonable, and if he falls short he allows that to be an excuse for acting out.
Well, I think the Angels might disagree with your interpretation of accepting the coin. Reread that scene with the Angel of Death. Your choices, however uniformed, are yours alone. Magic seems to work the same, see the whole thing about consequences of using magic are more important than intentions. Jim wrote a whole thing on it.
But yes, he didn't keep it. So he resisted. But he wouldn't have forever. if Mab hadn't been able to help, he would have take up Lasciel or another Coin.
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Just a note. Both Nicodemus and Michael make exactly the same error in judgement, based on, what I suppose is prior experience. They assume that the Shadow can't be removed.
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Just a note. Both Nicodemus and Michael make exactly the same error in judgement, based on, what I suppose is prior experience. They assume that the Shadow can't be removed.
We know for a fact that Michael's knowledge is incomplete, but we can presume that Anduriel's is the best on Earth (and also presume it's fully-available to Nic).
I repeat: having a shadow for that long is an unknown feat. NOBODY saw that one coming!
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Nobody? Not TWG, the Archangels, the Mothers, anyone else with foresight?
And pretty sure that Vadderung said he knew more than Anduriel.
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We know for a fact that Michael's knowledge is incomplete, but we can presume that Anduriel's is the best on Earth (and also presume it's fully-available to Nic).
I repeat: having a shadow for that long is an unknown feat. NOBODY saw that one coming!
Your speculation doesn't appear to match the text. Michael tells Harry that if he gives up his magic that the shadow will fade.“Give up the coin of your own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel’s shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.”
This quote tells you two things. One that someone has done it, else why did Michael suggest it. And given that we have some idea of how long Charity's magic took to dwindle, we know that they must have carried it for at least as long as Harry.
Also given that Anduriel doesn't have intellectus and assuming that the fallen can only communicate with each other when they have a rider and are in communication, then Anduriel's knowledge would have gaps as well.
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Nobody? Not TWG, the Archangels, the Mothers, anyone else with foresight?
Nobody who has appeared "onscreen," who has given any indication within canon on the issue.
But sure... presumably the Almighty is always aware of this sort of thing!
And pretty sure that Vadderung said he knew more than Anduriel.
That doesn't mean Vadderung's knowledge is a strict superset of Anduriel's knowledge. Anduriel may (probably does) know stuff that Vadderung does not (and, obviously, vice versa).
Stuff about Denarian Shadows is probably among the small set of information where the Fallen are more-informed than Vadderung.
Supernatural tac-ops is probably an area where -- broadly speaking -- Vadderung is more-informed than the Fallen are.
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Your speculation doesn't appear to match the text. Michael tells Harry that if he gives up his magic that the shadow will fade.
“Give up the coin of your own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel’s shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.”
This quote tells you two things. One that someone has done it, else why did Michael suggest it. And given that we have some idea of how long Charity's magic took to dwindle, we know that they must have carried it for at least as long as Harry.
Also given that Anduriel doesn't have intellectus and assuming that the fallen can only communicate with each other when they have a rider and are in communication, then Anduriel's knowledge would have gaps as well.
This brings up a very interesting point (TYVM). I'm going to start another thread based on your insights here!
But to this point: Michael tells Harry how to disempower the shadow AND the wizard, not JUST the Shadow.
What Harry did (that hadn't been done before) was continue to operate and grow in power without ever actually DOING anything about the Shadow. He put the coin into a circle; occasionally he threatened to "lock" the shadow in a cage of his will. But he did none of the other things (not only did he NOT set aside his power, he ALSO never turned his coin over to the Church) that he knew (or had reason to hope) might otherwise weaken the Shadow's presence in his mind.
This is the thing -- continuing to exercise his power and will... AND his pride and other sins; all while the Shadow was active -- that makes Harry's achievement unique.
As demonstrated by Nic and Anduriel, and explicitly stated by Lash: it had never been done.
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Well have it your way. A statement by Mab accredited to Uriel states it better.
“‘The burned hand teaches best,’” I read aloud. I made my way back to my seat and shook my head. “What the hell is that supposed to mean?”
Grimalkin mewled from the pew beside me, “That your experience with resisting the shadow of the Fallen One has garnered the respect of the Watchman, my Emissary.”
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Well have it your way. A statement by Mab accredited to Uriel states it better.
Indeed, Harry never stopped resisting once he understood what he was going up against. He
never gave in, oh sometimes temptation carried him up to the line, but he never crossed it, this is
what changed Lasciel into Lash over time. It shows strength of will that got Uriel's attention.
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Is there any evidence that anyone has resisted a Shadow as long or longer than Harry? There is substantial evidence that no one has. At the very least, 1/30th of the Fallen in a position to know have never heard of it.
My question is how was Harry able to resist? I have two thoughts.
His soul gaze of Rasmussen. Harry always knew exactly how awful being a Denarian would be. I doubt many people have had a shadow and a soul gaze of Denarian. That probably gave him a lot of motivation to resist.
Cassius's death curse. His curse was for Harry to "die alone." What's that even mean? What's the worst thing Cassius could thing off? Being separated from the power of the Fallen. I think maybe his death curse did something to weaken Lash's influence of Harry. That way Harry wouldn't take up the coin, and he would "die alone."
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What Harry did (that hadn't been done before) was continue to operate and grow in power without ever actually DOING anything about the Shadow. He put the coin into a circle; occasionally he threatened to "lock" the shadow in a cage of his will. But he did none of the other things (not only did he NOT set aside his power, he ALSO never turned his coin over to the Church) that he knew (or had reason to hope) might otherwise weaken the Shadow's presence in his mind.
In the end though, Harry did turn the coin over to the Church. It is possible that the reason he did was the death of Lash. With her death any possible influence the coin might have had on him no matter how slight was now gone.
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Wow! There have been some interesting conversations going on in this thread since the last time I checked about ten days ago. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to address many of the most interesting ideas I’ve read, at least not today. Before I go into who I think is the most likely candidate to either become nemfected or who is already nemfected I want to explain some of my thinking about this issue and also address a character several people have mentioned as a possible candidate, Elaine.
Let’s deal with Elaine first. In my mind Elaine is a backup character who could be nemfected. Her story about becoming Justin’s thrall is sketchy. She has kept other things about herself hidden from Harry. When Harry asked Elaine how she developed her healing ability, she pretty much dodged the question. There was also a time when Harry was talking to Bob about mind control; I don’t remember which book, and Harry used Elaine being enthralled by Just DuMorne as an example, and I don’t remember Bob’s exact words, but his reply to Harry sounded skeptical or even condescending. Bob said something like, “Oh yah, Elaine being enthralled, I guess so.” That reply was just awkward enough to draw my attention; but not Harry’s, and nothing more was said about it. Finally, Elaine had access to Aurora. So, Elaine is a candidate to have infected Aurora with the Nemesis flue. We can even go further and guess that the Nemesis bug was passed from Justin to Elaine to Aurora. (Thank you g33k for pointing this out.) We don’t know of any other characters who had regular access to the late Summer Lady so that makes her an especially strong candidate, and that’s my problem.
It’s too easy for us to zero in on Elaine. That makes me think she could be a red herring to distract us. In a future Dresden Files story I could see Harry become aware that Nemesis; or its agents, are always one step ahead of him and the most likely way for this to occur is if one of Harry’s associates is a Nemesis agent; though perhaps an unwilling one and maybe even unaware what they are doing. In this hypothetical future novel, clues start pointing towards Elaine and we already have our own suspicions about her true loyalty. Then wham! Harry and by extension the readers, are blindsided when the true nemfected agent is revealed. An alternative is Harry uses his detective skills to unmask the real nemesis agent, but we are left believing its Elaine right up until Harry reveals the true culprit or victim. Finally, Elaine has already had an opportunity to back-stab Harry, and do so at a critical moment. If Elaine is nemfected, why did she let Harry get through the poison thorns to confront Aurora in Summer Knight? As I stated above, there is a sketchy and perhaps even a hidden dark side to Elaine, I’m just not convinced it comes from her being nemfected.
Now to get to the meat of the matter, the original OP I wrote. I was somewhat deceptive; by omission, when I wrote it. I wanted to see if anyone else would take the next step by answering an unasked question. I said question #2 was a two-part question, but it is; in reality, a three-part question. Part 2 was, “And why do you think Nemesis might target this individual?” Part 3 is, “Why would Jim Butcher choose this character to be targeted?” (g33k came very close to stating this in one post.)
Jim is, in one sense, the actual mind of Nemesis. He must determine its rational for nemfection, but Jim has other goals as the writer of the story. Of course, a good writer wants to keep us in suspense. Like a stage magician, the writer doesn’t want to give away their secrets and tell us how the magic is done. However, Jim has revealed to us; over and over again, what he does when he writes a Dresden Files novel. I heard him repeat it this past July when I saw him at WesterCon in Layton, Utah. When Jim is asked why he likes to torture his characters, he replies, “I’m not torturing Harry, Murphy or anyone else in the Dresden Files. They are fictional and can’t really be tortured. I’m torturing you, the readers.” So, I believe the way to determine who is most likely character for nemfection is to ask, which character is going to hurt the most when you; and Harry, find out? Also, there must a believable reason why Nemesis would target this character. With those two criteria in mind, I think the best answer is Thomas Raith. Now if you’ve read this far, thank you for doing so. You’ve read enough of my meandering thoughts for today. Tomorrow (I hope) I will go into detail about how I think nemfection works; specifically with Thomas, the clues that reveal that Thomas is already nemfected and how a nemfected Thomas fits in with Nemesis' long-term goals.
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Your speculation doesn't appear to match the text. Michael tells Harry that if he gives up his magic that the shadow will fade.
This quote tells you two things. One that someone has done it, else why did Michael suggest it. And given that we have some idea of how long Charity's magic took to dwindle, we know that they must have carried it for at least as long as Harry.
Actually, the quote you cited doesn't tell us either of these things. There was a thread a while back dealing with this, and with the fact that Michael also said, during Small Favor, that no one had ever gotten rid of a Shadow without taking up the Coin: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,52773.0.html
The short version is that it was eventually concluded that no one had ever gotten rid of a Shadow by giving up their magic, and that Michael a) knew it was possible because TWG told him; or b) told Harry to give up his magic because, due to the way that hellfire was entwined with it, using his magic would reinforce the Shadow's influence on him. (Note that the thread this comes from is 11 pages long, so this is a very abbreviated summary.)
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“Give up the coin of your own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel’s shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.”
“What do you mean, set aside my power?”
“Walk away from your magic,” he said. “Forsake it. Forever.”
“I don’t know of another way to end Lasciel’s influence, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one out there. If you should change your mind about the coin, Harry, if you want to get rid of it, I promise that I’ll be there for you.”
Obviously Michael's assertion isn't quite as absolute in Small Favor as it seems to be and is more about Harry's strange behavior then about anything else. Harry's friends are doing an intervention. As I said Lash getting burned out of Harry's head is a Black Swan event. No one expected it.The theory was developed by Nassim Nicholas Taleb to explain:
The disproportionate role of high-profile, hard-to-predict, and rare events that are beyond the realm of normal expectations in history, science, finance, and technology.(and Magic!!!)
The non-computability of the probability of the consequential rare events using scientific methods (owing to the very nature of small probabilities).
The psychological biases that blind people, both individually and collectively, to uncertainty and to a rare event's massive role in historical affairs.
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Obviously Michael's assertion isn't quite as absolute in Small Favor as it seems to be and is more about Harry's strange behavior then about anything else. Harry's friends are doing an intervention. As I said Lash getting burned out of Harry's head is a Black Swan event. No one
Part of Michael's advice or the way I read it, he assumes that Harry actually accepted the coin, which he hadn't.
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Obviously Michael's assertion isn't quite as absolute in Small Favor as it seems to be and is more about Harry's strange behavior then about anything else. Harry's friends are doing an intervention.
I am really very definitely not having this argument again. It was fun the first time, but I doubt there's anything new to say about it.
I only brought it up in relation to the line in Small Favor where Michael states very definitely that no one has ever gotten rid of a Shadow without taking up a Coin, and how the contradiction between that line and the one in Proven Guilty can be resolved without requiring Michael to lie (since not lying is such a fundamental character trait of Michael).
...Unless someone is saying that Michael was lying in Small Favor. That might actually be an interesting discussion, if anyone could find reason or evidence for it.
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Going back to the last post of the previous page, arguing Thomas as Nemfected option...
Nothing would throw the world in chaos like someone unmasking the Venatori (the real ones), and if Nemesis is what we think it is, throwing the world into chaos must be its priority (see also the attack on Demonreach). So IF Thomas was Nemfected, Nemesis would almost have to keep it low-level to prevent anyone finding out. It wants to find the Venatori. So that part kinda checks out.
Of course it then also follows that Lara is its next target; but, who would've infected Thomas, and wouldn't they rather have gotten Lara directly then? Thomas offers a stronger link to Harry, sure, but a weaker one to the Venatori... unless of course we should blame Lea/Winter agents for his infection too, since they have been obsessed with Harry since forever (but at least since Summer Knight).
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I would assume in this context that mortal would mean without power or magic, so why Thomas?
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I would assume in this context that mortal would mean without power or magic, so why Thomas?
Because Mab said he was mortal enough for her?
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It might as well be Thomas as anybody then. Although Peace Talks could settle it. Thomas has to die. He's murdered multiple innocents and as such I wouldn't think he could have a happy ending.
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Before I talk about Thomas, I want to get into what I think is going on with Nemesis. One of the fun elements of the Dresden Files is the complexity of the magical world the story takes place in. In the second and third novels; Fool Moon and Grave Peril, we find out there are several different types of werewolves and vampires in the Dresden universe. Nemesis takes over the minds of its victims, but thinking about it, there are many flavors of mind influence and mind control in the Dresden Files.
Wizards who specialize in mind magic like Molly and Corpse Taker, appear to have a wide scope of actions they can use to influence and control the minds of mortals. The Fae use glamour to distract the minds of mortals, but when they gain control of a mortal because of a deal they made with them, their direct mind control abilities become much stronger and more focused; such as Mab removing Harry’s memory of fire magic. The White Court’s use of mind control is more subtle. They can elicit emotions from their victims in order to find on the psychic energy these emotions produce. The Raith’s also addict their victims to the pleasure they feel. In Turn Coat we learned White Court mind control can be much stronger than that; such as Madeline Raith’s control of the lawyer who had a private detective watching Harry’s home. The Red Court used a drug in their saliva to seduce their victims and addict and enslave those mortals they decided to keep around for a while. Mavra of the Black Court so completely crushed the minds of those she mentally enslaved, they were little more than zombies afterwards. Finally, the Denarians can introduce the copy of the mind of a fallen angel into the head of their victims, in order to corrupt that person’s soul, and do whatever the fallen angel is trying to get done.
I think the Nemesis infection is most similar to that of the Denarians. As I read it, Nemfection introduces a discrete personality into its target. We’ve seen evidence of this in the behavior of both nemfected Cat Sith and Lea when Harry discovered her half encased in ice at Arctis Tor. When the personality of real Cath Sith was completely suppressed, the voice that Harry heard came from a distinctly different personality. The same is true when Lea changed her mind, or more accurately had it changed for her, and screamed at Harry to free her from the ice she was trapped in at the top Mab’s fortress.
However, the discrete Nemesis personality differs from a being like Lash in a couple of ways (probably). Nemesis isn’t trying to corrupt anyone’s soul. (Of course, in the case of the fae, there isn’t a soul to corrupt.) Nemesis wants someone to help it get it fully into our reality so it can take it over said reality. Functionally, there may another major difference between the Nemesis personality and the copy of the Fallen. We know about the conversations Lash had with Harry and we once got a snippet of Anduriel talking to Nicodemus. Unless an individual is already travelling down the left-hand path, the copies of the Fallen and the Fallen themselves, most probably have to directly communicate with their victims in order to lead them into temptation. In contrast, it’s possible that the Nemesis personality never or only rarely talks directly to the original or real personality of its victims.
It’s possible Maeve had a direct, back and forth conversation with the Nemesis personality, but it’s also possible this did not occur. Maeve may have noticed the foreign influence that was now within her, and simply liked what it was doing to her. Once Maeve realized she could exercise freewill to get back at her mother, she happily went along with whatever ideas that personality sent into her head after that.
We don’t have an indication of how Cat Sith reacted when he learned of the Nemesis personality within him. Perhaps he didn’t fully realize what had happened until Harry told him to fight it. We have no way of knowing. We can surmise that Lea must have realized something had invaded her mind, and we know she was strong enough to keep it together long enough to seek Mab’s help. However, the character that I find most interesting is the former Summer Lady, Aurora.
This is just speculation on my part, but as I read Summer Knight, I think it’s possible Aurora had no clue what was happening to her and believed her new radical ideas were all her own. She even told Harry that she didn’t understand why he wasn’t on her side. Her final words, “I don’t understand” may have been about more than not knowing why Harry had opposed her. Maybe Aurora was expressing a deeper lack of understanding of everything that had brought her to her end. If the latter is the case, it makes Aurora’s story more poignant, more tragic.
Stories where one person or creature can control the mind of another aren’t new. Culturally, the idea of mind control probably goes back to belief in demon possession. However, my guess (so you can call this a WAG) is Jim may have been inspired by a type of mind control used in the TV series Babylon 5. He is a big fan of that show. However, I’m not referring to the psycops like Mr. Bester and other telepaths like Lyta Alexander. I’m referring to a specific episode of the second season of B5, “Divided Loyalties.” In that episode, one of the show’s main characters; the telepath Talia Winters, is discovered to be a sleeper agent who didn’t know that she was carrying a hidden personality within her who was secretly calling the shots. Now this story was created because the actress playing Talia Winters: Andrea Thompson, wanted off the show. She wasn’t the only major character who was eventually written out of Babylon 5, but the sudden departure of her character was handled about as well as any I have ever seen. Jim being a Babylon 5 fan, might have liked this episode too. That is another reason why I think Aurora might not have understood what was happening to her.
With all of that in mind. Now you know why I think it’s possible that if Thomas is nemfected, he might not even realize it. There’s another reason I think Thomas might be in the dark and that has to do with why Nemesis targeted him in the first place. Damn, I’ve rambled on too long as usual. I’ll have to get into why Thomas makes a good Nemesis target tomorrow. (This time for sure.)
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I just reread the scene in Cold Days where Maeve dies. You might be right, she may have never known what had really happened to her.
Side issue not related to the point. Where was Murphy hiding her holdout gun?
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Where was Murphy hiding her holdout gun?
Well, normally she has it in an ankle holster. I haven't read Cold Days in a while, so I don't remember if Murphy and the rest covered themselves in Demonreach's mud with or without their clothes on. If they did so with clothes, then it was probably still in her ankle holster.
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It isn't clear. Oh well, I have a twisted mind.
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... Unless an individual is already travelling down the left-hand path, the copies of the Fallen and the Fallen themselves, most probably have to directly communicate with their victims in order to lead them into temptation...
Lash definitely gave Harry some severe "anger issues," or maybe just weakened his self control. If she had tipped him over to actually killing someone -- before he realized Lash existed -- she might have been able to fill him with the kind of hopeless despair that leads to Falling...
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[W]e know she was strong enough to keep it together long enough to seek Mab’s help.
How do we know that? I always assumed it was Mab who discovered Lea was infected and, then Lea accepted Mab's help. Not the other way around.
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How do we know that? I always assumed it was Mab who discovered Lea was infected and, then Lea accepted Mab's help. Not the other way around.
I'm pretty sure that in Changes, Lea says, while talking of her infection, that, "It was shame that drove me to my Queen," so that sounds like Lea went to Mab, rather than the other way around.
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These are as close as I can get.
“Lea,” I said. “What has happened to you? How long have you been a Sidhe-sicle?”
Some of the strength seemed to ebb from her, and she suddenly seemed exhausted. “I grew too arrogant with the power I held. I thought I could overcome what stalks us all. Foolish. Milady Queen Mab taught me the error of my ways.”
Something dark flickered through her emerald eyes, and she turned her face slightly away from me. “Indeed,” she said quietly. “You saw what it means for my queen to heal an affliction.”
“What affliction?”
“A madness had beset me,” she whispered. “Robbed me of myself. Treacherous gifts . . .” She shook her head. “I can think on it no more, lest it make me vulnerable once again. Suffice to say that I am much better now.” She stroked a fingertip over an icy white streak in her hair. “The strength of my queen prevailed, and my mind is mine own.”
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From Changes:
“Shame, child, is for those who fail to live up to the ideal of what they believe they should be.” She waved her hand. “It was shame that drove me to my queen, to beseech her aid.” Her long, delicate fingers idly moved to the streaks of white in her otherwise flawless red tresses. “But she showed me the way back to myself, through exquisite pain, and now I am here to watch over my dear godson—and the rest of you, as long as it is quite convenient.”
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Your search fu is superior. :)
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Your search fu is superior. :)
I remembered this quote for another reason. There was a discussion about the Sidhe and emotions. Someone thought they had none and I thought this quote proved they had.
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Thanks all.
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Now to Thomas.
We don’t know what deal Nemesis; or its proxy HWWB, had going with Lord Raith. We don’t know if Lord Raith was nemfected or if he was just a useful idiot who thought he made a great deal to get immunity from most forms of magic, but didn’t realize he would be helping Nemesis end the world as he knew it. Which version of Lord Raith is true may might be important or largely irrelevant. (Personally, I think Lord Raith falls into the useful idiot category or at least the WAG I'm about to spin works better if that is the case.) What I think matters most is Lord Raith wasn’t given his magical immunity without the expectation there would be a major payoff for Nemesis and its Outsider minions somewhere down the road.
The problem for Nemesis started when Margaret LeFay’s death curse neutered Lord Raith. Whatever big things Nemesis expected Lord Raith to do or contribute to couldn’t happen because Papa Raith was forced to play safe to conserve his remaining tank of energy. This would have been especially perplexing for Nemesis if Lord Raith wasn’t nemefected, because I seriously doubt the White King would have shared the knowledge of what Maggie Sr. had done to him with HWWB. Whatever the case may be, Lord Raith’s value to Nemesis would have plummeted. A backup plan was needed; if Lord Raith wouldn’t or couldn’t deliver the goods Nemesis had to find someone who might be better suited for the task.
So now you might legitimately ask why Nemesis wouldn’t target Lara Raith to be its new tool and Papa Raith’s possible successor. Thomas gave us the answer to that in Blood Rites when he told Harry, "Lara is one of the most capable, intelligent people I've ever met. But around him (Lord Raith), she turns into an obedient dog.” Nemesis needed someone who could be seen as a legitimate leader of House Raith and the White Court, by the rest of the White Court. Nemesis might not understand human or White Court vampire family dynamics, but I think it would calculate that someone who acts as Thomas described wouldn’t be a good choice. On the other hand, Nemesis would understand that Thomas kept surviving Lord Raith’s attempts to kill him. None of Papa Raith’s previous sons had shown such survival traits. So, Nemesis chose Thomas over Lara. Oops!
So now you might want to know when Nemesis got its hooks into Thomas and why I have said Thomas might be a sleeper agent; or more accurately, have a sleeper agent implanted in him. Remember the conversation Cowl and Kumori had with Harry outside of Bock Ordered Books in Dead Beat? Specifically, look at what Cowl said to Harry after Harry told the necromancers he recognized them from Bianca’s party where they had acted as her flunkies. First Harry said, "That was such an amazingly screwed-up evening. It's been coming back to haunt me for years," To which Cowl replied, "And will for years to come. A great many things of significance happened that night. Most of which you are not yet aware."
Many things? I can’t put a number to the word many, but I believe it must mean more than two things occurred that Harry didn’t know about, and for the longest time I could only think of two things that Harry wouldn’t have known about. First, Harry didn’t know that the Athame Lea had been given had been tainted by Nemesis. Of course, Harry didn’t even know about Nemesis then. The second thing Harry didn’t know about is only conjecture, but it seems likely to me that Mr. Ferro’s gift; the box with something that glittered, was also contaminated. The thing is Thomas received a gift from Bianca too. Yes, I know it was just an envelope with a deed for a condo in Hawaii and a single plane ticket. Lea was given a magical item; however, there’s no way of knowing if Nemesis needs to be transmitted through a magical item. The gift Mr. Ferro was given appeared to be cask with diamonds or other gemstones in it. There is no reason to think they had any magical properties other than Nemesis contamination. Harry didn't physically touch his gift.
Now consider what happened after Harry and Michael escaped from Bianca’s party. Thomas got away as well, but he also managed to snag Amorachius in the bargain. How convenient. Thomas foils another of his father’s plans to get him killed and makes a new friend, and soon to be ally, who is also a powerful wizard of the White Council. A wizard that Nemesis; or at least one of his top lieutenants (HWWB), has an interest in. Harry had foiled two Nemesis plots in just a few months the prior year. That might not have been enough for Nemesis to see Harry as a major threat, but it was certainly enough to draw its interest. So, I’m suggesting Thomas was allowed to pick up Amorachius, knowing where he would take it. Also, remember that I’m suggesting that nemfecting Thomas is just a backup plan for Nemesis. If Thomas had allowed himself to be killed by Bianca’s first wave of minions, he wasn’t qualified to be the tool Nemesis might make use of in the future. Plus, from Nemesis’ perspective, there is still the possibility Lord Raith might come through for them. I think Nemesis would only discover this wouldn’t happen after the war between the Red Court and the White Council started and Lord Raith and the White Court remained on the sidelines.
After the events in Grave Peril the implanted personality sits and waits for an opportunity to move against Lord Raith but no opportunity arises. Remember, if Lord Raith is in the useful idiot category, that means Nemesis most likely doesn’t know about his weakness. It can’t risk pushing Thomas to make a move that will almost certainly fail. During the events of Blood Rites HWWB; and by extension Nemesis, might have finally learned why Lord Raith wasn’t holding up his end of the bargain. If it also realized that the White King might be able to recover his mojo by killing Harry and Thomas, that would have been welcomed by it. Remember that Thomas was only a backup plan. If Harry and Thomas defeated Lord Raith, then the hidden personality could be activated. Unfortunately for Nemesis, Harry screwed up its plans by getting Lara Raith involved. Nemesis never saw that coming.
There’s one huge objection I know many of you are going to make. Harry and Thomas shared a soulgaze. Seeing the Nemesis infection should have floored Harry. I don’t think so. Think about this, Thomas never said anything like this to Harry: “Harry, when we shared that soulgaze, not only did I see things about you, I also saw this beautiful woman standing next to you.” Remember the crazy stuff Harry saw when he shared a soulgaze with the bearer of Ursial’s coin? Lash was already inside Harry’s head, but she was only speaking to his subconscious then. That’s why Thomas wouldn’t have detected anything out of the ordinary. If Thomas wasn’t taken over by the Nemesis personality, if it was remaining dormant until some trigger event activated it, it may have been largely undetectable.
I almost forgot. Even if a nemesis personality is hiding in the background of Thomas’ head, by now it might be having an effect on Thomas anyway even if it's not giving him specific orders. Nemfection allows a magical being to change its true nature. Whose nature has changed more than Thomas' has, other than Aurora's and Maeve's did?
P.S. If I'm right does that mean that Thomas is doomed? Maybe not. I think that even as strong as Thomas is compared to normal mortals, I doubt he could survive being stuck inside a big ball of ice like Lea was placed in by Mab. However, even though I've stated that Lilly was an unreliable narrator when it came to knowing what Nemesis is and how it works, her description of Nemesis infection as a spiritual malady suggests to me a possible cure for Thomas, though a long-shot one. Lea had just enough presence of mind and inner strength to go to Mab to seek help after she realized what had happened to her. If Thomas has that same inner strength and if he could go to Harry before he was completely overcome; and I mean go specifically wherever Harry's new digs are going to be, the Sword of Faith will be there too. If anything could banish a spiritual infection, I think taking up Fidelacchius might do the trick.
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Even if a nemesis personality is hiding in the background of Thomas’ head, by now it might be having an effect on Thomas anyway even if it's not giving him specific orders. Nemfection allows a magical being to change its true nature. Whose nature has changed more than Thomas' has, other than Aurora's and Maeve's did?
Thomas has free will. That means he can change his own nature, with no need for anything else.
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@KurtinStGeorge: Two things. I'm not so sure the Walkers work for Nemesis. While they're definitely working towards the same goal, I'd imagine they're in different departments, so to speak. Harry doesn't have Fidelacchius anymore. He has Amoracchuis.
@nadia.skylark: Thomas may have changed his nature through the exercise of free will, but then again, he may not have.
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Thomas has free will. That means he can change his own nature, with no need for anything else.
The fact that he can change it himself does not mean someone else can not change it for him or help him doing so or entice him to do so. Justine is doing so not just by giving him true love but also by managing his diet.
His demon also has influence. Add Nemesis or a denarian shadow or something like that....
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Has anyone mentioned Andi yet?
She makes me suspicious. Since getting abducted and used as bait with the others in Cold Days. She was the only one not being fully conscious when Harry finds them. Maybe that's because she was suffering from recent nemfection. Or she was nemfected long before (no idea when) and got involved with Butters because she wanted to position herself to start influencing the group.
Also no one would suspect her, because she seems rather unimportant except as additional werewolf muscle and as girlfriend for Butters. She is in a good position to sow distrust in Harry's friends. Starting with Butters. This could explain why he behaved like he did in Skin Game and didn't trust Harry. To divide the group and to make Harry doubt himself. So in every group that could be a danger to the Outsiders it would be useful for them to have one nemfected person to weaken the group in one or another way.
That's "why Andi?"
I'm currently re-reading Skin Game and paid more attention to the little things as before.
Andi was always just in the next room, Harry never saw her in person.
There were two sentences in chapter 13: First some inner voice/his subconscious waking Harry with "Open your eyes, you fool. She’s right in front of . . ." Butters was there. Andi was apparently not in the room but in the house, too. After Butters told Harry he didn't trust him anymore, he was gone (Andi presumably too) and Mister came back. Same chapter, Karrin about the cat: “He vanishes whenever Andi shows up for some reason.”
Cats can feel and see ghosts, don't screw up magical circles, are good companions for wizards, familiars,... can maybe feel nemfection?
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I always took that line,
"Open your eyes, you fool. She’s right in front of . .
as an early foreshadowing of Lasciel.
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I always took that line, as an early foreshadowing of Lasciel.
Yes. At first I thought that too. I have started to write a new topic about why Karrin would become a denarian by taking up Lasciel's coin, but to my dismay there was a disruption and most of my text is gone.
It could also refer to Lasciel, but maybe that is what we should think. Or it really refers to Lasciel being with Karrin in the future while Andi is still being nemfected. The one doesn't exclude the other. Why would the cat leave? Why is Andi never in the room? Why is Butters so extremely distrustful? This always seemed weird to me. It can not all be attributed to Harry stealing Bob and fighting with his Girlfriend. And thinking about the fight with Andi: She is a werewolf. Wouldn' t she have known it was Harry? Smelled him? Why did she attack him then? There could at least have been some confusing moment with her asking:"Harry, is that really you?" They could have talked, he could have explained. But she attacked, he hurt her, destroyed equipment because of the fight and Butters is even more upset, than he would have been with Harry only breaking in and taking Bob.
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I like the Andi theory. It would go a long way to explain Butters' character shift. The reason Mister disappears whenever Andi is around is because Andi tried to eat him in Day Off. Or at least I think that was the name of the short story.
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The bit about Andi being able to smell that it was Harry is the point that stands out to me. Yes, Harry was mostly dead, but was revived and now is Mab's Knight. Now I suppose that could have
changed him so much that Andi's keen sense of werewolf smell couldn't detect him... But really?
Seriously? I totally doubt it, I work air scent dogs, have worked trailing dogs who can follow days
old trails, I've worked cadaver dogs that can find documented 800 year old human bones and discriminate between them and ordinary beef bones. Remember the tale of how when Ulysses
returned home after twelve years in disguise, no one knew him except his old loyal dog. No, Andi
should have known it was Harry. However the human part of her is susceptible to the same
skepticism that most humans would have towards someone who supposedly was murdered, gone,
and then came back and suddenly was trying to rob her home. Butters would know all of the above
about his girl friend's sense of smell, so he wouldn't doubt that it was Harry, but at the same time
he might have doubts about how he is behaving especially when you add the emotional factor of his love for Andi, and her getting hurt.
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This is Jim shoehorning a character into the position of knight. If Andi's werewolf senses work then there is no tension. I had enough trouble accepting Butters and Andi as a couple. So buying Andi not using her sense's to suss out Harry from an imposter isn't much of a stretch. In addition, Butter's gets all wound up about Harry repaying a debt to Bob, even though he is using Bob and knows the danger to Bob if the skull is damaged. As I'm sure Bob would have told him.
As to the dreams, remember that Bonea is talking to Harry's Id, Bonea can know, even if Harry doesn't, that Lasciel is on the scene. Certainly Lasciel knows about Bonea, as we find out in the vault. And id more or less tells you so at the end of chapter 23 when Bonea is revealed. id tells Harry to remember the dream, the dream where Murphy is carrying a fallen.
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Well Harry makes it explicit.Ah. So that's what my subconcious had been trying to warn me about. That Lasciel was right here in front of me, and itching for payback.
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In addition, Butter's gets all wound up about Harry repaying a debt to Bob, even though he is using Bob and knows the danger to Bob if the skull is damaged. As I'm sure Bob would have told him.
Not to mention the fact that Butters' whole reason for getting upset about it was that it was the first thing Harry said, rather than, for example, asking if people were alright--when in fact, the actual first thing Harry said was asking if Andi was alright!
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I like the idea of it being Andi, although I assume Mouse would be able to tell if something is wrong with her Nfection-wise.
@KSG
Thomas being Nfected is an interesting theory & you make some good points, however the events of TC would refute most of them. If Nemesis is allied with the Black Council (& it seems like they are), finding Morgan wouldn’t have been so much trouble with an Nfected Thomas.