Author Topic: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders  (Read 1743 times)

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2019, 04:02:23 AM »
You're wrong on both counts.

1.) All the denarians use magic, though some are certainly more proficient than others. Nicodemus' shadow leaping off the wall to strangle people is definitely a use of magic to kill. The same goes for Quintus Cassius, who was one of Nic's liutenants and explicitly a magic user with his snake-intensive spells.

2.) In Cold Days, Harry tries to get Murphy to bring a Sword, who refuses, saying explicitly "This isn't their fight". Also, if you think the use of Swords against the Ramps has anything to do with the outsiders, I encourage you to re-read Changes. It's explicitly stated that they're being punished for being "false gods".

3.) I'll add another point. Outsiders cooperate, they do not fight. The direct quote is "Outsiders; they work together, all of them". This means that, in your black magic=outsider influence model, all properly corrupted black magic users should be working together. Cowl, who is clearly aligned with the outsiders, was competing against and fighting Grevane and Corpsetaker, who are very obviously fully corrupted by black magic. It's obvious that they are not working with outsiders, or they would be cooperating 100% with Cowl.

Hmmm.... you seem to be misunderstanding my premise here - I’m not saying that all black magic users are automatically aligned with the Outsiders & their plan. My take on the black magic is connected to Outsiders theory is simply that the taint on a person’ soul from repeated uses of black magic creates a link of sorts to the Outside - whether or not this link is explored by either party is a different thing entirely. My point in this thread is just that the average mortal practitioner cannot likely summon Outsiders, you need to have a black magic taint on your soul in order to be able to do so.

Outsiders can only likely interact with black magic users who seek knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates, so it is not surprising that all black magic users don’t work together or have any desire to. Some of them may even be against Outsiders - but we have seen no mortal wizard of any significant power who is a regular black magic user actively oppose the Outsiders in the series so far. I believe this is because they have all sought knowledge from beyond the Gates in order to become more powerful.
Just because Grevane & Corpsetaker wanted to attain the Darkhallow doesn’t mean they knew that the Outsiders are allied with Cowl, or indeed that Outsiders are involved in DB at all - they seem to think that the only real contenders for necro-godhood are the other 2 necromancers since it was a prize ‘discovered’ by their mutual mentor, Kemmler. Suppose Corpsetaker or Grevane ‘won’ in DB, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Black Council would just make a deal with either since they have common foes (like the White Council) - we even see Capiocorpus allying with the Fomor in GS, & they are likely to have links to the Outside.

Regarding your point about the Swords. The quote you bring up in Changes actually explicitly states that the reason they are there is because of the Ramps’ “crimes against the Mayans & people’s of the world”. False gods is a descriptor - by this logic, Odin is also a ‘false god’ but the Swords don’t seem to have an issue with him or Hades.
In CD, Murphy is right - Fidelaccius would have been vulnerable if it would have been brought to Demonreach for the fight. Maeve had hoodwinked Lily, Fix & the Summer retinue into believing her Nfected version of events - if Murphy had used the Sword on any of them, I believe it would’ve made Fidelaccius vulnerable to destruction since it would’ve been a morally murky decision (given that the Summer party is doing what they believe is their job) - & we see in SG that Murphy can be manipulated into making a bad decision. Additionally, there was no need for the Swords since Starborn/ Warden of the island Harry (whose purpose it is to protect Demonreach) had Odin & the Erlking (Mab’s peer) along with the Wild Hunt with him. In Changes, there were no morally murky decisions to be made - it was war, not a surgical strike, hence 2 temp KotC along with Sanya were present.

About your last point regarding all Outsiders working together - this is just what Harry currently thinks - he may be wrong (I don’t think he is, just pointing it out).
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 04:10:33 AM by kbrizzle »

Offline Hankthemoose

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2019, 10:41:15 AM »
Ah, yes, I did not understand your premise. That is a lot more interesting than what I thought you meant, which was black magic --> Outsider infection. I still don't love it, but it works a lot better narratively.

The Lords of Outer Night are actually false (lower-case) gods. I think it was the DF RPG (?), explaining that the LOON are vampires who are drinking the blood of real non-false Amerindian gods to gain their power. I don't think Odin would get a "false god" descriptor from a sword bearer, exp. considering that Uriel and Vadderung are repeatedly implied to be allies.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2019, 12:29:58 AM »
@Hank
I do recall a WoJ or something about the LoOns doing that. Although that being said, I wonder what actually constitutes a false god in the DV. I imagine a god as a being with the ability to create new life - so the Red King was a god in a way since he created the whole Red Court. I would not consider the LoOns to be gods (despite their desire to be worshipped as such) - they were created by the Red King & hence less powerful than him.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2019, 08:00:30 PM »
This raises an interesting question. In the DF, what is a god? I'd say a god must have godly power, be immortal, and have worshipers.

Offline g33k

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2019, 08:26:08 PM »
... a god must have godly power ...

That's a bit circular...    What is a god <---> a god has godly power

How do you distinguish between "godly" power and major badassery like Ferrovax's?  Or even just Mab's?

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2019, 09:43:52 PM »
I don't. A creature that merely has godly power but isn't immortal isn't a god, and I'm using the DF's "can only be killed on conjunctions, Halloween being an example" definition of immortal. The point is that it is a requirement, so the distinction need not be made. Odin is/was a god. Odin is less powerful than Mab. Either Odin is still a god, or gods can become not gods. If Odin is a god and Mab isn't, then there is something to distinguish them beyond power and immortality.

It might be that godly power isn't a requirement. Old Roman household gods had less power than a powerful DF wizard. Maybe god and immortal are synonymous in the DF and that's all that's required.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2019, 05:01:13 PM »
I assume that Mab, Winter Queen is not a god, but that another of her Masks probably is. Similarly to the names Harry uses for Mother Winter in Cold Days, Atropos and Skuld. (Side note: my copy of Cold Days spells it "Athropos" rather than "Atropos." I can't find a source for the one in the book; anyone know any Greek, or have a source for the correct spelling? Everywhere I've looked spells it "Atropos."

Anyway, the point is that Vaderrung/Odin's a god, but Kringle isn't. So I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Mab has other personae who are gods. It's hinted so strongly that I can smell it in Skin Game that Mother/Queen/Lady Winter are collectively Hecate.

Offline g33k

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2019, 07:03:16 PM »
(Side note: my copy of Cold Days spells it "Athropos" rather than "Atropos." I can't find a source for the one in the book; anyone know any Greek, or have a source for the correct spelling? Everywhere I've looked spells it "Atropos." 
I suspect a typo... but it may be an alternate spelling?
I google'd "atropos" vs "athropos" and got about 70X as many hits.


  Anyway, the point is that Vaderrung/Odin's a god, but Kringle isn't. So I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Mab has other personae who are gods. It's hinted so strongly that I can smell it in Skin Game that Mother/Queen/Lady Winter are collectively Hecate.

We need to better understand what a "mantle" is and what it isn't.  Is Hecate no more than a suite of Mantles now?  Are others of the old gods in like state?

If Mab gets killed, does Molly automatically get the Queen's mantle?  Does she automatically lose the Lady's mantle, or does she choose a someone as the new Lady & put the Mantle there?

etc...

Here's a WAG -- the Mothers are what's left of the identities/personalities of certain old gods (e.g. Hecate); much of their power is invested into "mantles" which, for whatever reason, they can no longer wield.  So other beings are delegated to wield the mantles.

 

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2019, 08:26:40 PM »
[1.] Everywhere I've looked spells it "Atropos."

[2.] Anyway, the point is that Vaderrung/Odin's a god, but Kringle isn't. ... [3.] It's hinted so strongly that I can smell it in Skin Game that Mother/Queen/Lady Winter are collectively Hecate.

1. Same.
2. I'm not sure Vaderrung/Odin is a god because he's not immortal (or maybe immortal isn't an element of godhood?).
3. I think it is generally agreed by most of us here that all six Queens are Hecate in some manner.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2019, 02:09:48 AM »
I think to be a god in the DV, one has to be able to channel the belief of followers into power. This is one of the main reasons that Mab is the most powerful Demi-god around currently - most of the older gods are in ‘retirement’ since belief in religion has waned over time. As Fae, Mab does not need followers - likely the reason Odin created the Kringle persona.
Additionally, she was once mortal & I’m unsure about beings like Hades.

The reason TWG uses the Judeo-Christian divine infrastructure (like angels etc) is because Abrahamic religions are & have been the most prominent over the last 1500 years or so.

@g33k
I believe mantle is like an office in the mortal world. For example President of the US - while any person occupying that office becomes vastly more powerful than an average citizen, it also comes with many personal limitations, responsibilities & duties. It is a difficult job & most people are not up to it - like many of the mantles we’ve seen.
I think each mantle is different & as a result is powered somewhat uniquely (& affects the users accordingly).
To answer your question about Mab’s succession - yes Molly becomes WQ while the WL mantle moves to the closest ‘like’ vessel. This is clearly inefficient as evidenced by Lily becoming SL even though she doesn’t really want to.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 03:54:00 AM by kbrizzle »

Offline Kindler

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2019, 03:41:39 PM »
1. Same.
2. I'm not sure Vaderrung/Odin is a god because he's not immortal (or maybe immortal isn't an element of godhood?).
3. I think it is generally agreed by most of us here that all six Queens are Hecate in some manner.

Vaderrung isn't immortal? Is that somewhere in the text that I missed? Even Kringle says something along the lines of, "I LOVE Halloween!" in Cold Days, which I took as a reference to the fact that the risk of death made it more exciting.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2019, 06:06:06 PM »
Odin isn't immortal because he gave that up to be able to interfere in mortal affairs. He took on the Kringle mantle to get around the problem of aging. None of this is in the text or inferred from it. It's all from Jim. I think he has talked about it several times. So he isn't immortal as Odin, but is as Kringle, or something. Honestly, I'm not sure how that works.

Offline g33k

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2019, 08:12:30 PM »
...  @g33k
... To answer your question about Mab’s succession - yes Molly becomes WQ while the WL mantle moves to the closest ‘like’ vessel. This is clearly inefficient as evidenced by Lily becoming SL even though she doesn’t really want to.

We've seen Ladies ascend thrice now, I think...
  • Aurora --> Lily
  • Maeve --> Molly
  • Lily --> Sarissa
They were... very different events.  But I don't think "efficiency" (or the desires of the recipients) is terribly relevant.

Lily was half-fae, and had just been holding the S.Knight-mantle, and so was the obvious "Summer power" target for becoming the S.Lady.  It was implied (but iirc never stated as "fact" by any bound-not-to-lie fae!) that this was just kind of automatic flow-of-power:  like to like, Summer power into a Summer vessel.

Sarissa was a faerie, already being groomed as W.Lady, when the S.Lady mantle was abruptly re-homed.  It was a chaotic situation, and possibly there were no other options; but I wouldn't have expected a Winter vessel to become a home for Summer power; I wouldn't have thought it COULD happen.  But... no other options?

Molly was (as best we know (and imagine the WAGs there!)) purely mortal, with the totality of her "fairy-ness" being the year or so of Lea's tutoring her while Harry was "dead".  She had evidently been being groomed as a just-in-case backup to Sarissa's presumptive WL-ification, so there was some pre-planning, but we don't know how much ritual/etc may have happened offscreen; was it all REALLY just Lea's teaching???  Molly doesn't seem a likely "vessel" for any Faerie-Queen's mantle!

Speaking of that Sarissa+Molly dual-ascent, here's a bit of a WAG, based upon Mab... Mab is the consummate plotter & manipulator.  Secretly planning a backup WL-candidate?  Yeah, fine, sure, whatever; but having a backup plan for something critical is... kind of Junior League, as scheming & subtle plans go!  What if Mab figured Maeve as likely to mess with Sarissa's WL-ness, and Molly had become Mab's PRIMARY plan for WL, not a "backup" at all?  What if Sarissa became SL because Mab had planned it that way?  I mean... Maeve murders Lily, SL mantle needs a home, whatcha gonna do?  Well, Sarissa... but she's a Winter-Court Faerie, Mab's own daughter, and about as unlikely a Summer Vessel as can be imagined!  OTOH, there's this other chick:  Molly, human but with bits of faerie training & some potential to become a Lady, and REALLY, more of a "Summer" disposition than "Winter" in her core... we KNOW she is a viable Lady-candidate because she became a Lady moments later!!!  So why didn't the SL mantle go to Molly?  Because of Mab.  Because Mab set things up for Sarissa to become Summer Lady when Maeve pulled her power-play.  Mab has little to no power over Summer's mantles, but LOADS of influence upon Sarissa.

Here endeth my WAG.

But on a side-note... we've seen an awful lot of new Ladies.  I had understood this was a rare-ish event.  There have actually been more new Ladies than new Knights, and that seems very out-of-line for how the Mother/Queen/Lady/Knight structures are supposed to work...

But then, we don't have ANY examples of the Queens' ascensions, those She's who Are.  I agree that what we DO know sort of implies that Lady --> Queen is the normal path; hence, Molly is presumably in line to replace Mab.  But do we actually know?

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2019, 09:19:19 PM »
Sarissa was a changeling, half-fae as you say. Jim has said Lily became wholly mortal because she became the Summer Knight. I think there has been equivocation on that point though.

Didn't one or both Mothers expressly state that Maeve would become Winter Queen if Mab died? Or about as close as they come to explicitly stating anything. Also didn't Mab say who she intended for what role?

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2019, 09:44:58 PM »
I believe that Lily became the Summer Lady not Knight. ;) 
Quote
Didn't one or both Mothers expressly state that Maeve would become Winter Queen if Mab died?
Mother Summer in Chapter 33 of Cold Days.