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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: kbrizzle on May 19, 2019, 08:54:56 PM
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At the start of PG after the Council executes the Korean boy, the Merlin says something that intrigued me. When Harry questions the necessity of killing the young warlock, the Merlin answers that he personally examined the kid as well as 12 of his victims. Given that the WC just about scraped through the Ramp attacks in DB, it seemed odd to me that the Merlin would spend so much time on what seems like workaday Warden work.
Also why now? Why start staging public executions of warlocks guilty of breaking the Laws especially when it would be distasteful to almost everyone involved this far into the Ramp war?
Why go after Molly so ruthlessly for practicing black magic even though she was at a much earlier ‘warlock’ stage than the Korean kid? The Merlin took the time to soulgaze the Korean kid, but does not do so for Molly - he just wants to execute her. Eventually the Gatekeeper’s stalling tactic enables the rest of the SC to vote against Molly’s execution. The reason cited for this is KotC Michael being her dad & saving the day against Outsiders. The Merlin also seems to relent after these facts are introduced.
I think timing is key here. The first execution of this kind that we see is right after the events of DB where the presence of Outsiders ups the ante in the Ramp war. We also see from Eb’s words that the group in Oregon had a very tough time fighting the Outsider-allied Red Court & would likely have lost without Michael’s help. Given Mab’s seeming preoccupation in dealing with her own issues (Winter amassing troops at Summer border instead of fighting Ramps trespassing on their territory) & Outsiders openly allying themselves with the RCV, it would make sense that the WC would decide to deal very harshly with any practitioners following the left-hand path. These are the folks likely being co-opted by the Black Council/ Circle to summon Outsiders in the first place.
That the Merlin would take the time out of his very busy schedule to personally examine the victims of a teenage warlock shows that the SC is aware of the Adversary & is ready to take the ruthless steps to stamp out any violators of the Laws and send a stern warning to those who flirt with black magic (what Langtry thinks Harry does).
This is further proof that there is a relationship between black magic & allying with Outsiders. I’ve always liked the theory that the taint left on a practitioner’s soul from black magic foments a connection of sorts with the Outside. Interestingly we don’t really hear of further battles against the Ramps where Outsiders are involved in the following books. Instead the next few times the Outsiders attack are because of Cowl, Peabody & Maeve. So maybe the tactic sorta worked?
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I don't like that theory at all, because it contradicts several important plot elements.
Black magic practitioners who oppose outsiders - most notably Nicodemus and the nickleheads, as well as Wamps, and the infernal powers of hell in general. Huge portions of the Nevernever are understood to be "evil", with most commonly understood "demons" just being various creatures of the Nevernever.
All of the Outsider hints dropped early in the series - The whole point of Victor Sells, the wolf belts, and all later hints was that Harry is dealing with black magic that isn't behaving normally. They aren't normal bad guys, they are off somehow, and so is their magic. This strongly indicates that there is such a thing as a normal bad guy and normal black magic.
The traditional good/evil moral dimension represented by heaven/hell - The Outsider conflict is one being fought by "the world" headed by Mab against "the outside". The Dresden Files has another conflict between the forces of heaven and hell. This is NOT about protecting the world from outside, it's about the souls of mortals. Uriel and the swords basically treat outsiders as irrelevant to their mission. Instead, they fight evil, and the corruption of free will by the forces of said evil. If the source of this evil was "outside", then they would be set against outsiders, which they are not. Notice how the swords never show up in an outsider story?
Tying black magic to Outside in general kills a huge portion of the nuance of the entire story, and simply does not track with the story overall.
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Uhm, Michael did save the Council from the Ramp Outsiders, so the Swords do work on outsiders.
Even though otherwise I agree with you, Hank.
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Good catch! though mainly I understood that Michael had been sent on that mission to put him in a position to save Molly. I suppose the swords do get sent into non-denarian missions pretty regularly, considering Butters' first mission. I'm still fairly confident that outsiders are at best a peripheral concern to them.
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Unless I missed something the SC is involved with every execution. One might assume that they gaze all the victims of every instance. This particular instance was more political than perhaps the others.
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Good catch! though mainly I understood that Michael had been sent on that mission to put him in a position to save Molly. I suppose the swords do get sent into non-denarian missions pretty regularly, considering Butters' first mission. I'm still fairly confident that outsiders are at best a peripheral concern to them.
The Swords (and the Knights) are specifically/primarily about opposing the Denarians, rescuing their hosts from servitude to the Fallen.
But they do a LOT of other stuff... rescue the Council from Ramp-summoned Outsiders, rescue Charity from Siriothrax, fight an Accorded duel with a Jade-court vamp (Jamp?), rescue Harry (and a station full of civilians) from a horde of Hobs, etc...
Given all the ineffability that the Almighty seems to fling about, though, it's not clear that ANY of those other missions are not -- at some level indiscernable to you and I and Harry Dresden -- opposing the Denarians.
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@Hank
While I get your point about some Black magic users being against Outsiders, we have yet to see any evidence of that in the novels. Sure, there are users like the Korean kid in PG who don’t overtly support or have any connections to Outsiders, but there is no evidence that they are opposed to them. Nicodemus is not a wizard, in fact the Denarians with abilities to wield magic are Thorned Namshiel (on Black Council) & Tessa (also likely Black Council or being used by them).
The point in the series is that most wizards will use a little black magic in their time... the world of the DF almost makes it inevitable - the ones who keep using it without caution almost always become corrupted by it. My WAG is simply about the ones who have become corrupted by it - I think that taint opens up a ‘gate’ of sorts to the Outside (& may even be one of the requirements to open the Gates). If you think about the Laws of Magic, doesn’t the 7th one about the Outside seem like a non-sequitur?
I don’t think there is anything normal in most uses of black magic - they are all somewhat unique in manifestation, motivation & abuse (see Molly vs. beheaded Korean kid).
Regarding your point about the 2 concurrent conflicts - hmm that’s how most of Harry’s casefiles end - a couple of seemingly disparate things going on that end up being intertwined in the end (Blood Rites included).
I believe others have already commented on how the Swords can do a lot of other things in addition to fighting the Denarians. The purpose of the Swords is to fight evil of any kind. The purpose of the KotC is the fight/ save the Denarians. The KotC do not need to dedicate themselves to fighting Outsiders because, as you point out, it is Mab’s job (presumably given to her by TWG or his agents).
@morriswalters
That is likely true - my point in this post is just to conjecture that the reason the SC is looking at every kid (as opposed to just the Wardens) is because they are looking for signs of Outsider activity.
Surely every time a warlock is captured red-handed, the SC doesn’t need to personally soulgaze the person. As long as a Warden, or someone on the Council gazes the warlock, I think the SC is satisfied. In PG, warden Harry has gazed Molly, so perhaps that’s the workaround?
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I have no idea. Or maybe since it was about messaging, since he might have wanted to make sure that he covered his arse.
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@kbrizzle: Rosanna also uses magic. I don't know if we want to count Hannah in there, but we probably see her use more magic than any other Denarian.
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@Bad Alias
True & Rosanna is Tessa’s top lieutenant. I guess we could count Hannah Ascher but again, she is not overtly opposed to Outsiders
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@Hank
While I get your point about some Black magic users being against Outsiders, we have yet to see any evidence of that in the novels. Sure, there are users like the Korean kid in PG who don’t overtly support or have any connections to Outsiders, but there is no evidence that they are opposed to them. Nicodemus is not a wizard, in fact the Denarians with abilities to wield magic are Thorned Namshiel (on Black Council) & Tessa (also likely Black Council or being used by them).
The point in the series is that most wizards will use a little black magic in their time... the world of the DF almost makes it inevitable - the ones who keep using it without caution almost always become corrupted by it. My WAG is simply about the ones who have become corrupted by it - I think that taint opens up a ‘gate’ of sorts to the Outside (& may even be one of the requirements to open the Gates). If you think about the Laws of Magic, doesn’t the 7th one about the Outside seem like a non-sequitur?
I don’t think there is anything normal in most uses of black magic - they are all somewhat unique in manifestation, motivation & abuse (see Molly vs. beheaded Korean kid).
Regarding your point about the 2 concurrent conflicts - hmm that’s how most of Harry’s casefiles end - a couple of seemingly disparate things going on that end up being intertwined in the end (Blood Rites included).
I believe others have already commented on how the Swords can do a lot of other things in addition to fighting the Denarians. The purpose of the Swords is to fight evil of any kind. The purpose of the KotC is the fight/ save the Denarians. The KotC do not need to dedicate themselves to fighting Outsiders because, as you point out, it is Mab’s job (presumably given to her by TWG or his agents).
You're wrong on both counts.
1.) All the denarians use magic, though some are certainly more proficient than others. Nicodemus' shadow leaping off the wall to strangle people is definitely a use of magic to kill. The same goes for Quintus Cassius, who was one of Nic's liutenants and explicitly a magic user with his snake-intensive spells.
2.) In Cold Days, Harry tries to get Murphy to bring a Sword, who refuses, saying explicitly "This isn't their fight". Also, if you think the use of Swords against the Ramps has anything to do with the outsiders, I encourage you to re-read Changes. It's explicitly stated that they're being punished for being "false gods".
3.) I'll add another point. Outsiders cooperate, they do not fight. The direct quote is "Outsiders; they work together, all of them". This means that, in your black magic=outsider influence model, all properly corrupted black magic users should be working together. Cowl, who is clearly aligned with the outsiders, was competing against and fighting Grevane and Corpsetaker, who are very obviously fully corrupted by black magic. It's obvious that they are not working with outsiders, or they would be cooperating 100% with Cowl.
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Nicodemus' shadow leaping off the wall to strangle people is definitely a use of magic to kill.
No, actually this is a use of a fallen angel to kill. Nicodemus' shadow is explicitly Anduriel, who can operate semi-separately from him in lieu of Nicodemus having a battle form.
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And? Do you think all of the Fallen are outsider friendly? Because Anduriel reacted pretty strongly when Harry mentioned Hellfire at Arctis Tor.
Alternatively, do you think the Fallen aren't outsider friendly even when they use black magic? Why not?
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And? Do you think all of the Fallen are outsider friendly? Because Anduriel reacted pretty strongly when Harry mentioned Hellfire at Arctis Tor.
Alternatively, do you think the Fallen aren't outsider friendly even when they use black magic? Why not?
What I was saying was that Nicodemus wasn't using magic to kill--he wasn't using magic at all. And the Fallen can't use black magic, as I understand it, because the laws of magic only apply to mortals, and it is breaking them that constitutes black magic. (Actually, this is evidence for the black magic=Outsider thing, because only mortals can summon Outsiders as well.)
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Under the theory, black magic taint is corruption by Outsiders, not absolute control, so it doesn't matter that they don't all work together. Additionally, I believe Jim stated that Nicodemus is more dangerous than Lucifer because Lucifer is definitely team Inside, while Nicodemus is capable of anything.
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You're wrong on both counts.
1.) All the denarians use magic, though some are certainly more proficient than others. Nicodemus' shadow leaping off the wall to strangle people is definitely a use of magic to kill. The same goes for Quintus Cassius, who was one of Nic's liutenants and explicitly a magic user with his snake-intensive spells.
2.) In Cold Days, Harry tries to get Murphy to bring a Sword, who refuses, saying explicitly "This isn't their fight". Also, if you think the use of Swords against the Ramps has anything to do with the outsiders, I encourage you to re-read Changes. It's explicitly stated that they're being punished for being "false gods".
3.) I'll add another point. Outsiders cooperate, they do not fight. The direct quote is "Outsiders; they work together, all of them". This means that, in your black magic=outsider influence model, all properly corrupted black magic users should be working together. Cowl, who is clearly aligned with the outsiders, was competing against and fighting Grevane and Corpsetaker, who are very obviously fully corrupted by black magic. It's obvious that they are not working with outsiders, or they would be cooperating 100% with Cowl.
Hmmm.... you seem to be misunderstanding my premise here - I’m not saying that all black magic users are automatically aligned with the Outsiders & their plan. My take on the black magic is connected to Outsiders theory is simply that the taint on a person’ soul from repeated uses of black magic creates a link of sorts to the Outside - whether or not this link is explored by either party is a different thing entirely. My point in this thread is just that the average mortal practitioner cannot likely summon Outsiders, you need to have a black magic taint on your soul in order to be able to do so.
Outsiders can only likely interact with black magic users who seek knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates, so it is not surprising that all black magic users don’t work together or have any desire to. Some of them may even be against Outsiders - but we have seen no mortal wizard of any significant power who is a regular black magic user actively oppose the Outsiders in the series so far. I believe this is because they have all sought knowledge from beyond the Gates in order to become more powerful.
Just because Grevane & Corpsetaker wanted to attain the Darkhallow doesn’t mean they knew that the Outsiders are allied with Cowl, or indeed that Outsiders are involved in DB at all - they seem to think that the only real contenders for necro-godhood are the other 2 necromancers since it was a prize ‘discovered’ by their mutual mentor, Kemmler. Suppose Corpsetaker or Grevane ‘won’ in DB, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Black Council would just make a deal with either since they have common foes (like the White Council) - we even see Capiocorpus allying with the Fomor in GS, & they are likely to have links to the Outside.
Regarding your point about the Swords. The quote you bring up in Changes actually explicitly states that the reason they are there is because of the Ramps’ “crimes against the Mayans & people’s of the world”. False gods is a descriptor - by this logic, Odin is also a ‘false god’ but the Swords don’t seem to have an issue with him or Hades.
In CD, Murphy is right - Fidelaccius would have been vulnerable if it would have been brought to Demonreach for the fight. Maeve had hoodwinked Lily, Fix & the Summer retinue into believing her Nfected version of events - if Murphy had used the Sword on any of them, I believe it would’ve made Fidelaccius vulnerable to destruction since it would’ve been a morally murky decision (given that the Summer party is doing what they believe is their job) - & we see in SG that Murphy can be manipulated into making a bad decision. Additionally, there was no need for the Swords since Starborn/ Warden of the island Harry (whose purpose it is to protect Demonreach) had Odin & the Erlking (Mab’s peer) along with the Wild Hunt with him. In Changes, there were no morally murky decisions to be made - it was war, not a surgical strike, hence 2 temp KotC along with Sanya were present.
About your last point regarding all Outsiders working together - this is just what Harry currently thinks - he may be wrong (I don’t think he is, just pointing it out).
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Ah, yes, I did not understand your premise. That is a lot more interesting than what I thought you meant, which was black magic --> Outsider infection. I still don't love it, but it works a lot better narratively.
The Lords of Outer Night are actually false (lower-case) gods. I think it was the DF RPG (?), explaining that the LOON are vampires who are drinking the blood of real non-false Amerindian gods to gain their power. I don't think Odin would get a "false god" descriptor from a sword bearer, exp. considering that Uriel and Vadderung are repeatedly implied to be allies.
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@Hank
I do recall a WoJ or something about the LoOns doing that. Although that being said, I wonder what actually constitutes a false god in the DV. I imagine a god as a being with the ability to create new life - so the Red King was a god in a way since he created the whole Red Court. I would not consider the LoOns to be gods (despite their desire to be worshipped as such) - they were created by the Red King & hence less powerful than him.
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This raises an interesting question. In the DF, what is a god? I'd say a god must have godly power, be immortal, and have worshipers.
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... a god must have godly power ...
That's a bit circular... What is a god <---> a god has godly power
How do you distinguish between "godly" power and major badassery like Ferrovax's? Or even just Mab's?
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I don't. A creature that merely has godly power but isn't immortal isn't a god, and I'm using the DF's "can only be killed on conjunctions, Halloween being an example" definition of immortal. The point is that it is a requirement, so the distinction need not be made. Odin is/was a god. Odin is less powerful than Mab. Either Odin is still a god, or gods can become not gods. If Odin is a god and Mab isn't, then there is something to distinguish them beyond power and immortality.
It might be that godly power isn't a requirement. Old Roman household gods had less power than a powerful DF wizard. Maybe god and immortal are synonymous in the DF and that's all that's required.
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I assume that Mab, Winter Queen is not a god, but that another of her Masks probably is. Similarly to the names Harry uses for Mother Winter in Cold Days, Atropos and Skuld. (Side note: my copy of Cold Days spells it "Athropos" rather than "Atropos." I can't find a source for the one in the book; anyone know any Greek, or have a source for the correct spelling? Everywhere I've looked spells it "Atropos."
Anyway, the point is that Vaderrung/Odin's a god, but Kringle isn't. So I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Mab has other personae who are gods. It's hinted so strongly that I can smell it in Skin Game that Mother/Queen/Lady Winter are collectively Hecate.
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(Side note: my copy of Cold Days spells it "Athropos" rather than "Atropos." I can't find a source for the one in the book; anyone know any Greek, or have a source for the correct spelling? Everywhere I've looked spells it "Atropos."
I suspect a typo... but it may be an alternate spelling?
I google'd "atropos" vs "athropos" and got about 70X as many hits.
Anyway, the point is that Vaderrung/Odin's a god, but Kringle isn't. So I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Mab has other personae who are gods. It's hinted so strongly that I can smell it in Skin Game that Mother/Queen/Lady Winter are collectively Hecate.
We need to better understand what a "mantle" is and what it isn't. Is Hecate no more than a suite of Mantles now? Are others of the old gods in like state?
If Mab gets killed, does Molly automatically get the Queen's mantle? Does she automatically lose the Lady's mantle, or does she choose a someone as the new Lady & put the Mantle there?
etc...
Here's a WAG -- the Mothers are what's left of the identities/personalities of certain old gods (e.g. Hecate); much of their power is invested into "mantles" which, for whatever reason, they can no longer wield. So other beings are delegated to wield the mantles.
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[1.] Everywhere I've looked spells it "Atropos."
[2.] Anyway, the point is that Vaderrung/Odin's a god, but Kringle isn't. ... [3.] It's hinted so strongly that I can smell it in Skin Game that Mother/Queen/Lady Winter are collectively Hecate.
1. Same.
2. I'm not sure Vaderrung/Odin is a god because he's not immortal (or maybe immortal isn't an element of godhood?).
3. I think it is generally agreed by most of us here that all six Queens are Hecate in some manner.
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I think to be a god in the DV, one has to be able to channel the belief of followers into power. This is one of the main reasons that Mab is the most powerful Demi-god around currently - most of the older gods are in ‘retirement’ since belief in religion has waned over time. As Fae, Mab does not need followers - likely the reason Odin created the Kringle persona.
Additionally, she was once mortal & I’m unsure about beings like Hades.
The reason TWG uses the Judeo-Christian divine infrastructure (like angels etc) is because Abrahamic religions are & have been the most prominent over the last 1500 years or so.
@g33k
I believe mantle is like an office in the mortal world. For example President of the US - while any person occupying that office becomes vastly more powerful than an average citizen, it also comes with many personal limitations, responsibilities & duties. It is a difficult job & most people are not up to it - like many of the mantles we’ve seen.
I think each mantle is different & as a result is powered somewhat uniquely (& affects the users accordingly).
To answer your question about Mab’s succession - yes Molly becomes WQ while the WL mantle moves to the closest ‘like’ vessel. This is clearly inefficient as evidenced by Lily becoming SL even though she doesn’t really want to.
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1. Same.
2. I'm not sure Vaderrung/Odin is a god because he's not immortal (or maybe immortal isn't an element of godhood?).
3. I think it is generally agreed by most of us here that all six Queens are Hecate in some manner.
Vaderrung isn't immortal? Is that somewhere in the text that I missed? Even Kringle says something along the lines of, "I LOVE Halloween!" in Cold Days, which I took as a reference to the fact that the risk of death made it more exciting.
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Odin isn't immortal because he gave that up to be able to interfere in mortal affairs. He took on the Kringle mantle to get around the problem of aging. None of this is in the text or inferred from it. It's all from Jim. I think he has talked about it several times. So he isn't immortal as Odin, but is as Kringle, or something. Honestly, I'm not sure how that works.
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... @g33k
... To answer your question about Mab’s succession - yes Molly becomes WQ while the WL mantle moves to the closest ‘like’ vessel. This is clearly inefficient as evidenced by Lily becoming SL even though she doesn’t really want to.
We've seen Ladies ascend thrice now, I think...
- Aurora --> Lily
- Maeve --> Molly
- Lily --> Sarissa
They were... very different events. But I don't think "efficiency" (or the desires of the recipients) is terribly relevant.
Lily was half-fae, and had just been holding the S.Knight-mantle, and so was the obvious "Summer power" target for becoming the S.Lady. It was implied (but iirc never stated as "fact" by any bound-not-to-lie fae!) that this was just kind of automatic flow-of-power: like to like, Summer power into a Summer vessel.
Sarissa was a faerie, already being groomed as W.Lady, when the S.Lady mantle was abruptly re-homed. It was a chaotic situation, and possibly there were no other options; but I wouldn't have expected a Winter vessel to become a home for Summer power; I wouldn't have thought it COULD happen. But... no other options?
Molly was (as best we know (and imagine the WAGs there!)) purely mortal, with the totality of her "fairy-ness" being the year or so of Lea's tutoring her while Harry was "dead". She had evidently been being groomed as a just-in-case backup to Sarissa's presumptive WL-ification, so there was some pre-planning, but we don't know how much ritual/etc may have happened offscreen; was it all REALLY just Lea's teaching??? Molly doesn't seem a likely "vessel" for any Faerie-Queen's mantle!
Speaking of that Sarissa+Molly dual-ascent, here's a bit of a WAG, based upon Mab... Mab is the consummate plotter & manipulator. Secretly planning a backup WL-candidate? Yeah, fine, sure, whatever; but having a backup plan for something critical is... kind of Junior League, as scheming & subtle plans go! What if Mab figured Maeve as likely to mess with Sarissa's WL-ness, and Molly had become Mab's PRIMARY plan for WL, not a "backup" at all? What if Sarissa became SL because Mab had planned it that way? I mean... Maeve murders Lily, SL mantle needs a home, whatcha gonna do? Well, Sarissa... but she's a Winter-Court Faerie, Mab's own daughter, and about as unlikely a Summer Vessel as can be imagined! OTOH, there's this other chick: Molly, human but with bits of faerie training & some potential to become a Lady, and REALLY, more of a "Summer" disposition than "Winter" in her core... we KNOW she is a viable Lady-candidate because she became a Lady moments later!!! So why didn't the SL mantle go to Molly? Because of Mab. Because Mab set things up for Sarissa to become Summer Lady when Maeve pulled her power-play. Mab has little to no power over Summer's mantles, but LOADS of influence upon Sarissa.
Here endeth my WAG.
But on a side-note... we've seen an awful lot of new Ladies. I had understood this was a rare-ish event. There have actually been more new Ladies than new Knights, and that seems very out-of-line for how the Mother/Queen/Lady/Knight structures are supposed to work...
But then, we don't have ANY examples of the Queens' ascensions, those She's who Are. I agree that what we DO know sort of implies that Lady --> Queen is the normal path; hence, Molly is presumably in line to replace Mab. But do we actually know?
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Sarissa was a changeling, half-fae as you say. Jim has said Lily became wholly mortal because she became the Summer Knight. I think there has been equivocation on that point though.
Didn't one or both Mothers expressly state that Maeve would become Winter Queen if Mab died? Or about as close as they come to explicitly stating anything. Also didn't Mab say who she intended for what role?
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I believe that Lily became the Summer Lady not Knight. ;)
Didn't one or both Mothers expressly state that Maeve would become Winter Queen if Mab died?
Mother Summer in Chapter 33 of Cold Days.
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I believe that Lily became the Summer Lady not Knight. ;)
Lily got the Knight's mantle as part of Aurora's plot to destabilize the Summer/Winter balance.
When Aurora died, there was Summer-Changeling Lily, freshly Summer-flavored from the Knight's mantle, when Whups! SummerLady Mantle Needs a New Home!
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There have actually been more new Ladies than new Knights, and that seems very out-of-line for how the Mother/Queen/Lady/Knight structures are supposed to work...
New Ladys:
New Knights:
Right?
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New Knights:
Right?
No, Lily was not a Knight. She was used to hide the mantle, but never acted in any capacity as Knight, nor was she allowed any opportunity to do so. The essence of being a Knight is doing Knight-stuff.
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Being a Knight is a state of being. Slate was the Knight until Harry killed him. Lily was the Knight until she was the Lady. Furthermore, if Summer works at all like Winter, Lily had to choose to be the Knight.
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Being a Knight is a state of being. Slate was the Knight until Harry killed him. Lily was the Knight until she was the Lady. Furthermore, if Summer works at all like Winter, Lily had to choose to be the Knight.
My initial response was WTF, but then I found this."And it isn't with one of the Queens."
"True," Summer said. "We would sense it, were it so."
"So it's already in another Knight," I said. "But if that was true, there'd be no imbalance." I scratched at my head, and as I did it slowly dawned on me. "Unless it had been changed. Unless the new Knight had been changed. Transformed into something else. Something that left the power trapped, inert, useless."
Which goes to show that you should always test your first impressions.
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I mean, I could see getting behind an argument that Lily wasn't the Summer Knight when she was a statue, because, well, she was a statue. But she had to have been the Knight before (and after) she was the statue, or there wouldn't have been an imbalance.
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I mean, I could see getting behind an argument that Lily wasn't the Summer Knight when she was a statue, because, well, she was a statue. But she had to have been the Knight before (and after) she was the statue, or there wouldn't have been an imbalance.
I guess that works... She was SK for a moment, then she was a statue (taking the knight-mantle out of play, hence imbalance), then she was SK for another moment, then she was SL.
The SK mantle was there all along, but it was hidden... REALLY hidden. If Titania cannot even FIND her Knight / mantle -- to which she is mystically attuned/attached -- it says something about whether said "Knight" is in fact BEING a Knight. Hence, imbalance.
Still... From the POV where it was originally raised (the passing of a Mantle) I guess the SK mantle DOES pass to Lily during the course of the books (just before the start of SK (the novel)). I'm still disinclude this one from any attempt to draw conclusions -- I don't think the books give any details of Lily's "Knighting" but given Aurora arranged it under influence of N'fection, I suspect it isn't a datum from which to generalize about how things do/should work.
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It is of limited value. It implies some things, all/most of which I think were already stated by Bob, so how helpful is that?
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Still... From the POV where it was originally raised (the passing of a Mantle) I guess the SK mantle DOES pass to Lily during the course of the books (just before the start of SK (the novel)). I'm still disinclude this one from any attempt to draw conclusions -- I don't think the books give any details of Lily's "Knighting" but given Aurora arranged it under influence of N'fection, I suspect it isn't a datum from which to generalize about how things do/should work.
Good luck on working that out. I don't think Jim has. However, this."How does the mantle pass on from one Knight to the next?"
Mother Summer smiled, but the expression was a grim one. "It returns to the nearest reflection of itself. To the nearest vessel of Summer. She, in turn, chooses the next Knight."
It's conceivable that Mab could have shoved the Mantle onto Harry since evidently Aurora did to Lily. But Aurora was always going to kill Lily and give the mantle to Slate so it wouldn't have mattered if Lily objected. Harry on the other hand would have been a pissed off Knight with murder in his eyes.
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I'm not certain Aurora forced the mantle onto Lily. I'm not sure she could. If she could, that's where I'd put my money.
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I'm not certain Aurora forced the mantle onto Lily. I'm not sure she could. If she could, that's where I'd put my money.
I might be wrong but I think Aurora turned Lily into a statue first, then hid the mantle inside her.
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Is there something that makes you think that, or is it just an impression?
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Is there something that makes you think that, or is it just an impression?
I seem to remember that is how Harry explained what happened to the Summer Knight mantle after the murder, but it has been a while. At no time was Lily the Summer Knight, so that is the logical explanation. I don't have time at the moment to find the actual quote.
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Okay, here is as close as I can find to what I am talking about. Summer Knight page 295 Harry is about to get the Unraveling from the Mothers.
"Hold it, hold it. Look, as I understand it, this power of the Summer Knight, is his mantle, it can't exist on its own. It has to be inside a vessel."
"Yes," Winter murmured. "Within one of the Queens, or within the Knight."
"And it isn't with one of the Queens,"
"True," Summer said. "We would sense it, were it so."
"So it's already in another Knight," I said. "But if that was true, there'd be no imbalance." I scratched my head, and as I did it slowly dawned on me. "Unless it had been changed. Unless the new Knight had been changed. Transformed into something else. Something that left the power trapped, inert, useless."
However you are right, later Harry tells Aurora that she killed the Summer Knight, but the mantle in Lily, then turned her to stone... However one would think even if it were almost instantaneous that
Mab or at the very least the Mothers would have been aware.. Yet the Mothers forced Harry to figure it out instead of just telling him.
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However one would think even if it were almost instantaneous that Mab or at the very least the Mothers would have been aware.. Yet the Mothers forced Harry to figure it out instead of just telling him.
Maybe only the Mothers can sense it. Is "we" the all the Queens or just the Mothers? They also imply, but do not state, that they wouldn't feel it in a Knight. If that is the case, perhaps there is a way for a queen to direct the mantle without it first being in the queen. Maybe all the Queens knew that the Knight had been changed into something else already because that's the only thing that could have happened, but no one bothered to tell Harry.
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perhaps there is a way for a queen to direct the mantle without it first being in the queen.
This makes sense is if you consider how Molly was prepped to become the Lady. Lilly had been in close proximity to the Summer Knight for some time. Molly was prepped for the mantle by her close association with the Lea. So you could say a similar thing happened to Lily. The mantle went to her because of her association with the Summer Knight.
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... But Aurora was always going to kill Lily and give the mantle to Slate so it wouldn't have mattered if Lily objected...
I'm not sure it matters to the larger point, but...
I don't think this was Aurora's plan. It was just part of the lie she was telling Slate.
She was going to send the SK mantle into the Stone Table when Winter owned it, making the imbalance permanent. Once the power passed to Winter, once the Stone Table passed to Winter... Aurora would have been out of the picture, a Summer witness to what happened next with Winterstuff.
I don't think the Knights can influence the Stone Table... part of the Knightly mandate is that they are mortal. I think the only the Queens (and maybe other high-power fae? Erlking? Kringle?) can influence the magic flows of the Stone Table; so Slate couldn't have done it either.
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I think Aurora had been subtly preparing Lily to become a vessel for some time. Like @g33k says, her plan was to sacrifice SK Lily on the stone table after the Summer equinox when Winter is in charge of the table. Although I disagree with the assertion that only the Fae nobility can influence the table - I think anyone can (if they can find the table that is & are well versed in Fae magic).
I wonder how Aurora got Nfected - who would’ve been able to get to her? I understand Maeve was Nfected through Lea, who in turn was Nfected by the athame given to her by Cowl & co. I wonder who the Summer representative at Bianca’s ball was...
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... I wonder how Aurora got Nfected - who would’ve been able to get to her? I understand Maeve was Nfected through Lea, who in turn was Nfected by the athame given to her by Cowl & co. I wonder who the Summer representative at Bianca’s ball was...
Well, damn. There's an obvious answer, here; I don't like it much, but it looks pretty damning...
Nemfection is presumed (or known? Do we have WOJ or unambiguous proof in the stories?) to be an Outsider thing.
Du Morne was into Outsiders. He summoned a freakin' Walker to go kill an errant apprentice (which normally would be like a thermonuclear flyswatter (except Starborn)).
Du Morne spent a day messing with Elaine's mind (as prelude to taking Harry's mind too); a side-helping of Nemfection seems not only possible, but likely. As soon as she got loose(ish) from the Enthrallment, she went straight to the Summer Court, asking the Summer Lady for shelter. There's your vector.
Let's think for a moment. Most of Harry's actual training came from DuMorne; I presume that includes much of what he learned about the Summer&Winter Courts; Elaine likely had the same training. And Harry's gut reaction (deeply trained) to the Fae is that they are dangerous, deceptive, & untrustworthy. Elaine was supposedly frightened and confused as she fled from the Harry-vs-Justin smackdown; not the time I'd expect her to turn to any Queen of either court -- even the most approachable (the Summer Lady) for succor!
Nevertheless, that's what she did... and shortly thereafter, Aurora was shown to be Nemfected.
Outsider-summoning Justin DuMorne, creating a tool out of Elaine Mallory, Nemfecting the Summer Lady. It doesn't even call for Justin to be a knowing part of this; Nemfection can apparently be quite subtle, so it may have happened without him noticing.
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@g33k
Yup, that’s the most obvious vector, although the timeline seems wonky. If Elaine had Nfected Aurora for that long (almost 20 years between 16 yr old Harry & SK Harry right?), why did she only act now? Maeve & Slate had been incompetent at their positions for a while - surely Nfected Aurora would’ve been able to take advantage of this.
This is also my biggest problem with the Justin is Cowl theory - why wait 20+ years to begin acting in the open? Why not kill/ Nfect Harry prior to StF, given their history? However if Simon is Cowl, then the latter’s appearance a few years after his ‘death’ & cryptic comments about Harry in DB make a lot more sense.
I don’t think Justin said anything to Harry or Elaine about the greater supernatural world at large. I think Harry learned about the Fae from Lea - he has always been scared/ suspicious of her.
I also don’t think Elaine went to Summer, it was the other way around. Since Winter already had its hands on a Starborn (the Lea-Harry connection), it would be symmetrical for Summer to do so as well so as to not upset the balance. So when the freaked out Elaine ran away from Justin’s, she was likely ‘be-friended’ by some Summer Fae. That being said, Elaine & Summer/ Aurora seemed to have a strange relationship - almost like Aurora was Elaine’s older sister, but more complex.
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11 years.
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@Bad Alias
Is Harry really supposed to be 27 years old at the time of a summer Knight? I thought we would be in his early to mid thirties then
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There's a timeline over at the Official Jim Butcher site (here: http://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline (http://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline)) Priscellie started it, and lots of fans helped build on it, so I figure it's probably the best info we can get (besides WOJ.)
Discontinuities make it hard to pin down Harry's age, but the best guesses make him either 25 or 27 during Storm Front. Summer Knight takes place two years later in-series, so Harry's 27 or 29 years old then.
(I'm glad that resource exists, because I don't think I'd have figured it out on my own. And wow, if Harry was born in 1974, I'm two years older than he is! :o ;D )
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Elaine as the original infector of Aurora is an interesting idea. Would definitely make sense if she was infected...but Elaine doesn't seem to have the usual craziness associated with the infected. Although neither did Cat Sith, but he had only recently been infected it seems. But as I believe Elaine is probably a part of the Circle or associated with the real villains, it wouldn't surprise me if she organised Aurora to be infected.
Just to be clear - even if DuMorne did summon He Who Walks Behind, Harry realises in the most recent books (Cold Days I think, or Ghost Story) that quite probably Justin was the puppet and the student. If HWWBh went after Harry, it was because he wanted to. Not because Justin was in control. And it seems it was all part of the plan to make Harry into something. Strange as that seems.
Btw - in the Paranet Papers their are notes by Simon Petrovich that imply that Justin murdered people using mind magic. Who knows how much damage he has been doing, or done. Justin was a Warden, but clearly he had ambition and abilities that made him far more dangerous than the average Warden. Not to mention, it seems he quite on purpose neglected this part of Harry's education. He made sure he had an opponent with an obvious weakness to him. Then he loses a fire fight? Molly would have ripped Dresden's mind apart at 16... Just thought I would throw that out there.
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Based on WoJ about Priscellie and the timeline, it is likely more accurate than WoJ. For example, I remember a WoJ about how Michael and Harry started working together shortly before Grave Peril, but in Grave Peril, Charity says it's been "years" since she and Dresden have seen one another. I mean, they could have met long ago and only started working together just before Grave Peril, but that doesn't seem likely.