Who really killed Margaret McCoy Dresden

[kbrizzle]

We know that Maggie was killed by an entropy curse right after she gave birth to Harry. We assume this was the doing of Lord Raith since Eb says so, & LR seems to be an avid user of entropy curses (throughout BR).

However there is one other baddie who uses entropy curses - Nicodemus. In DM, he uses the Barabbas curse on Harry & Susan as they drive back from gala where Marcone is supposed to pick up the Shroud from the Churchmice. We are told that Nic gets to use the Barabbas curse every so often (annually?) to kill one person - the Knights can choose to take the place of this person, as Shiro ends up doing in BR. We also know that Nic knew Maggie (and how many kids she had), & as shown in DM, SmF & SG, his preferred MO is to waylay the plans of others.

What if Nic chose Maggie for the Barabbas curse in order subordinate the plan in motion to birth a Starborn (his usual MO)?

[Mr. Death]

I don't see how that's his MO at all. In DM, SmF, and SG, it's his plot that's in motion, not that he stumbled on someone else's plot and screwed with it.

Besides, from all appearances he liked Maggie.

So I just don't see it.

[nadia.skylark]

I don't see how that's his MO at all. In DM, SmF, and SG, it's his plot that's in motion, not that he stumbled on someone else's plot and screwed with it.

Besides, from all appearances he liked Maggie.

So I just don't see it.

I agree. I doubt he would have killed Margaret. Malcolm, on the other hand...

[kbrizzle]

I’m not saying I believe that Nic killed Margaret, or the other WAGs I propose in this post, but I do think this line of thought opens up interesting avenues.

The WAG
I think it’s possible that Nic killed Maggie since he is the only other mortal-ish baddie who has access to entropy curses (Barabbas curse), as well as a “corporate sponsor” (Lucifer) to juice it up when he needs to. Eb believes that Lord Raith killed Margaret, but he also believes that she threw her death curse.

Nic knows an awful lot about Harry & Maggie (& how many kids she had). Perhaps he was also invited to the dinner thrown by Maggie & Lord Raith a century ago (or spied on it). He figures out that Maggie has a plan to birth a Starborn - tracks her down & kills her so that Harry’s most powerful parent can’t protect him anymore.

He has no desire to raise a child (especially with a tongue), so he figures that he’ll just get to Harry as an adult when he can lie/reason with him (something Nic is very good at & has a lot of experience doing). Nic is the only other person apart from Mab/ Lea who goes to great lengths to recruit Harry rather than kill him, which they could both have easily done.

I’d argue that it’s not far from Nic’s usual MO of doing whatever he wants in the middle of other people’s plans.

For example:
In DM, Marcone pays the Churchmice to steal the Shroud, Nic intercepts it. Nic also intercepts Ursharavas’ prophecy to Harry. In SmF, Nic kidnaps Marcone, but then intercepts the arbiter (Ivy) before the parley.

So my point here is that Nic has a habit of doing something while the other parties don’t even know he’s involved till the last minute (Anduriel’s powers make this easier no doubt).

Side WAG
If the theory that Nic kidnapped Marcone specifically to get Ivy is true, the I also wouldn’t be surprised if he were involved in the death of Ivy’s grandmother (who died in a freak automobile accident, which sounds like an extremely powerful entropy curse to me) & mother (who committed suicide - maybe because a Fallen whispered something like 7 words in her ear?)  - all to make the Archive finally vulnerable to his control down the line.

[nadia.skylark]

I’d argue that it’s not far from Nic’s usual MO of doing whatever he wants in the middle of other people’s plans.

For example:
In DM, Marcone pays the Churchmice to steal the Shroud, Nic intercepts it. Nic also intercepts Ursharavas’ prophecy to Harry. In SmF, Nic kidnaps Marcone, but then intercepts the arbiter (Ivy) before the parley.

None of your examples actually support your point here.

1) We have WoJ that Nicodemus was the one who hired the Churchmice originally--they just tried to double cross him and get more money.

2) Nicodemus intercepts the prophesy to prevent interference in his plan. It's got nothing to do with other people's plans.

3) Nicodemus kidnapped Marcone specifically to engineer an opportunity to kidnap the Archive--it's his plan, not him interfering in other people's plans.

[Mr. Death]

I’m not saying I believe that Nic killed Margaret, or the other WAGs I propose in this post, but I do think this line of thought opens up interesting avenues.

The WAG
I think it’s possible that Nic killed Maggie since he is the only other mortal-ish baddie who has access to entropy curses (Barabbas curse), as well as a “corporate sponsor” (Lucifer) to juice it up when he needs to. Eb believes that Lord Raith killed Margaret, but he also believes that she threw her death curse.

She did throw her Death Curse. It's the reason Lord Raith can't feed. Eb was just mistaken as to the effect she had in mind.

Nic knows an awful lot about Harry & Maggie (& how many kids she had). Perhaps he was also invited to the dinner thrown by Maggie & Lord Raith a century ago (or spied on it). He figures out that Maggie has a plan to birth a Starborn - tracks her down & kills her so that Harry’s most powerful parent can’t protect him anymore.

The dinner was not "a century ago." It was right after she took up with Lord Raith, which would have been close to when Thomas was born.

He has no desire to raise a child (especially with a tongue), so he figures that he’ll just get to Harry as an adult when he can lie/reason with him (something Nic is very good at & has a lot of experience doing). Nic is the only other person apart from Mab/ Lea who goes to great lengths to recruit Harry rather than kill him, which they could both have easily done.

This makes little sense to me. Raising Harry from childhood would have been the perfect way to indoctrinate him. Waiting until he's an adult having been raised by other people only makes Nic's supposed goal here harder to obtain.

I mean, consider who is Nic's most trusted and loyal follower -- his actual daughter, who he clearly did raise and allowed to keep her tongue.

I’d argue that it’s not far from Nic’s usual MO of doing whatever he wants in the middle of other people’s plans.

For example:
In DM, Marcone pays the Churchmice to steal the Shroud, Nic intercepts it. Nic also intercepts Ursharavas’ prophecy to Harry. In SmF, Nic kidnaps Marcone, but then intercepts the arbiter (Ivy) before the parley.

As pointed out, those are his plans. All of those situations happen because Nicodemus initiated them.

[groinkick]

I think the Black Council ordered Maggie's death.  I don't know if Raith is part of it, or was used by them, or he wasn't involved at all.  Harry needed to be removed from his parents.  If Harry had been raised by his mother, and father he'd have been the equivalent to Michael Carpenter who was a Starborn wizard.

Malcolm was a man of incredible moral character, and loving father .  His mother who had been somewhat of a bad character had reformed herself from the sound of it after she met Malcolm.  Harry would have been guided by two loving parents, and would have been trained in wizardry by his mother, and Eb.  He would have had a good experience with the White Council rather than a toxic one. 

When Harry lost his parents, and taken into Justin's care he was vulnerable.  He had been trained to believe that might is right, and would have been an enemy of the White Council under Justin, making him a perfect member of the Black Council. 

Harry is a good guy, but he's still vulnerable to the temptation of dark magic, and still capable of going down a dark path.  Mirror Mirror will point this out perfectly.

If raised by his loving parents he would have been an incredibly powerful force for good.  Now that force may have been removed, and instead an incredibly powerful force for evil.

That in my opinion is why she, and his father were killed.  It was done by the Black Council.

[kbrizzle]

@nadia

I’m not aware of that WoJ; from the text it certainly seems like Marcone is the buyer (especially given the phone conversation in the hotel gala).

Or perhaps it’s like you say, Nic only interferes in his own plans. Perhaps Nic was a key member of the original Starborn plan (which is why he claimed to be fond of Maggie Sr). Harry found out about the Starborn thing from Lash - how would she know about the circumstances of Harry’s birth, unless maybe from Nic? Anduriel would certainly have been able to find out, & we’ve seen the Nickelheads perform extremely complex magic in the series when they needed to.

While Nic wants to recruit Harry, he’s not above killing him if Harry interferes too much in Nic’s plans. Perhaps when Maggie decided to “Bogart” the birth of the Starborn, Nic decides to punish her.

[kbrizzle]

@Mr. Death

Fair enough about the dinner. Although I’m not so sure that Nic trusts anyone, including Deedee. He is also ruthless & sociopathic, so he probably didn’t want the responsibility of raising a child.

If you remember what Nic tells Harry about why he didn’t help Cassius after the events of DM - it’s because he didn’t want to “help” Cassius, since that would make Snakeboy a parasite who needs Nic’s largesse to thrive & that would be unfair to Cassius - a truly sociopathic line of reasoning. This is towards someone he has known for at least a few centuries.

In Skin Game, Nic orchestrates a false conflict to get Michael away from Deidre because he is afraid that talking to Michael would make Deedee change her mind. While he clearly loves her, he loves his convoluted end goals more since he sacrifices her to pass the Blood Gate - despite running a fanatical cult where members are proud to have their tongues cut off. He could not trust any of them to kill themselves for him, & he didn’t fully trust that his daughter would go through with it either. Not to mention the incestous undertones in their relationship - ranother thing reminiscent of Lord Raith.

The way Nic probably saw it, Thomas did not turn out to be exceptionally magical or Starborn so there was no guarantee that it would work on Harry either. After all, Maggie married a commoner with no talent (Malcolm), so why would Nic want to raise a potential dud? He has no use for such responsibilities, just as he thought when Cassius lost his coin he was of no further use to him.

[kbrizzle]

@groinkick

I absolutely think that both of Harry’s parents were murdered, especially for the reasons you listed. Not sure if it was the Black Council necessarily, but certainly her enemies (which seem to have been myriad from what is said about her)

[Avernite]

@Mr. Death

Fair enough about the dinner. Although I’m not so sure that Nic trusts anyone, including Deedee. He is also ruthless & sociopathic, so he probably didn’t want the responsibility of raising a child.

If you remember what Nic tells Harry about why he didn’t help Cassius after the events of DM - it’s because he didn’t want to “help” Cassius, since that would make Snakeboy a parasite who needs Nic’s largesse to thrive & that would be unfair to Cassius - a truly sociopathic line of reasoning. This is towards someone he has known for at least a few centuries.

In Skin Game, Nic orchestrates a false conflict to get Michael away from Deidre because he is afraid that talking to Michael would make Deedee change her mind. While he clearly loves her, he loves his convoluted end goals more since he sacrifices her to pass the Blood Gate - despite running a fanatical cult where members are proud to have their tongues cut off. He could not trust any of them to kill themselves for him, & he didn’t fully trust that his daughter would go through with it either. Not to mention the incestous undertones in their relationship - ranother thing reminiscent of Lord Raith.

The way Nic probably saw it, Thomas did not turn out to be exceptionally magical or Starborn so there was no guarantee that it would work on Harry either. After all, Maggie married a commoner with no talent (Malcolm), so why would Nic want to raise a potential dud? He has no use for such responsibilities, just as he thought when Cassius lost his coin he was of no further use to him.

I think you're underselling Nic's trust in Deirdre; it seems to me more on the 'trust, but verify' level that he distrusts her, simply because he's asking the ultimate question and so has been unable to really test the waters properly (and as the only sensible bad guy, he rather doesn't pit himself against survival instincts if he can help it but instead prepares to deflect such snags to his plans).

Of course, that reading of the Nic-Deirdre relationship is what Michael and Harry use against him in the Vault and it doesn't quite work (who knows why) - but IF it is correct, it throws the rest of your analysis in doubt.
IF raising Deirdre from birth gave him one truly loyal ally, raising Harry could have given him another which would appeal to a powermonger with a long view like Nic is. And he (in my view) would have done it.

[kbrizzle]

@Avernite

Dunno, there’s no guarantee that raising Harry will make him turn out to be like Deidre - if that were the case, Harry wouldn’t have rebelled as seriously against Justin (Elaine didn’t). Or that Harry would be more drawn the magically talented Tessa (opp of Deedee). Maybe Nic has had hundreds of kids over the last 2 millennia & Deidre is the only one who survived.

My point does not hinge on trust issues between biological father & daughter over centuries - why would Nic treat Harry as a son?? The reason I brought up Nic’s callous treatment of Cassius is because child or not, Nic would put Harry in that category, not the same as his own flesh & blood....

AND besides, Nic doesn’t know if Harry got any gifts from his mother - & won’t until the latter comes of age around puberty. So Nic would have to raise/ indoctrinate a child from 0-14/15 even though there is a high likelihood that kid will turn out like Thomas or worse (barely magical & not Starborn). Not a great bet from his angle - easier to let someone else raise Harry & then corrupt him through logic/ lies/ Coin.

[Mr. Death]

@Mr. Death

Fair enough about the dinner. Although I’m not so sure that Nic trusts anyone, including Deedee. He is also ruthless & sociopathic, so he probably didn’t want the responsibility of raising a child.

That's belied by the fact that he obviously did raise a child, Deirdre. I don't see any support in the books for the idea that Nic wouldn't want to raise a child -- it's not like he's without time or resources.

If you remember what Nic tells Harry about why he didn’t help Cassius after the events of DM - it’s because he didn’t want to “help” Cassius, since that would make Snakeboy a parasite who needs Nic’s largesse to thrive & that would be unfair to Cassius - a truly sociopathic line of reasoning. This is towards someone he has known for at least a few centuries.

Totally different situation -- that was after Cassius had proven that he wasn't up to snuff, and was trying to get back the only real power he'd ever had. Cassius wasn't his child, adopted or otherwise.

In Skin Game, Nic orchestrates a false conflict to get Michael away from Deidre because he is afraid that talking to Michael would make Deedee change her mind. While he clearly loves her, he loves his convoluted end goals more since he sacrifices her to pass the Blood Gate - despite running a fanatical cult where members are proud to have their tongues cut off. He could not trust any of them to kill themselves for him, & he didn’t fully trust that his daughter would go through with it either. Not to mention the incestous undertones in their relationship - ranother thing reminiscent of Lord Raith.

And would he have trusted her more if he'd let someone else raise her without instilling her in the values Nic wanted, and without her knowing he even existed until well into her adulthood?

The way Nic probably saw it, Thomas did not turn out to be exceptionally magical or Starborn so there was no guarantee that it would work on Harry either. After all, Maggie married a commoner with no talent (Malcolm), so why would Nic want to raise a potential dud? He has no use for such responsibilities, just as he thought when Cassius lost his coin he was of no further use to him.

I think you're really overselling how much of a burden raising a kid would be for Nic. And if he's a dud? Kill him or make him a squire. The man is 2,000 years old. 10-15 raising a kid is nothing to him.

@Avernite

Dunno, there’s no guarantee that raising Harry will make him turn out to be like Deidre - if that were the case, Harry wouldn’t have rebelled as seriously against Justin (Elaine didn’t). Or that Harry would be more drawn the magically talented Tessa (opp of Deedee). Maybe Nic has had hundreds of kids over the last 2 millennia & Deidre is the only one who survived.

You know what absolutely guarantees that Harry won't turn out like Deirdre?

Not being raised by Nic.

My point does not hinge on trust issues between biological father & daughter over centuries - why would Nic treat Harry as a son?? The reason I brought up Nic’s callous treatment of Cassius is because child or not, Nic would put Harry in that category, not the same as his own flesh & blood....

Because if he treated Harry like a son, he could more easily mold and manipulate him.

How Nicodemus treats Cassius is irrelevant. Nicodemus never would have had any reason to treat Cassius like or think of him as a son.

AND besides, Nic doesn’t know if Harry got any gifts from his mother - & won’t until the latter comes of age around puberty. So Nic would have to raise/ indoctrinate a child from 0-14/15 even though there is a high likelihood that kid will turn out like Thomas or worse (barely magical & not Starborn). Not a great bet from his angle - easier to let someone else raise Harry & then corrupt him through logic/ lies/ Coin.

Again, the "time wasted" element is meaningless for a man who's immortal and well over 2,000 years old. If Harry turns out to not have any magical potential, it would be trivially easy for Nic to either kill him (he's always got a use for human sacrifice) or make him one of the Squires.

[morriswalters]

Why would Nic want a Starborn?

[Mr. Death]

Why wouldn't he? The ability to fight and/or control Outsiders is a pretty big deal.