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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: kbrizzle on April 23, 2019, 06:04:35 AM
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We know that Maggie was killed by an entropy curse right after she gave birth to Harry. We assume this was the doing of Lord Raith since Eb says so, & LR seems to be an avid user of entropy curses (throughout BR).
However there is one other baddie who uses entropy curses - Nicodemus. In DM, he uses the Barabbas curse on Harry & Susan as they drive back from gala where Marcone is supposed to pick up the Shroud from the Churchmice. We are told that Nic gets to use the Barabbas curse every so often (annually?) to kill one person - the Knights can choose to take the place of this person, as Shiro ends up doing in BR. We also know that Nic knew Maggie (and how many kids she had), & as shown in DM, SmF & SG, his preferred MO is to waylay the plans of others.
What if Nic chose Maggie for the Barabbas curse in order subordinate the plan in motion to birth a Starborn (his usual MO)?
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I don't see how that's his MO at all. In DM, SmF, and SG, it's his plot that's in motion, not that he stumbled on someone else's plot and screwed with it.
Besides, from all appearances he liked Maggie.
So I just don't see it.
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I don't see how that's his MO at all. In DM, SmF, and SG, it's his plot that's in motion, not that he stumbled on someone else's plot and screwed with it.
Besides, from all appearances he liked Maggie.
So I just don't see it.
I agree. I doubt he would have killed Margaret. Malcolm, on the other hand...
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I’m not saying I believe that Nic killed Margaret, or the other WAGs I propose in this post, but I do think this line of thought opens up interesting avenues.
The WAG
I think it’s possible that Nic killed Maggie since he is the only other mortal-ish baddie who has access to entropy curses (Barabbas curse), as well as a “corporate sponsor” (Lucifer) to juice it up when he needs to. Eb believes that Lord Raith killed Margaret, but he also believes that she threw her death curse.
Nic knows an awful lot about Harry & Maggie (& how many kids she had). Perhaps he was also invited to the dinner thrown by Maggie & Lord Raith a century ago (or spied on it). He figures out that Maggie has a plan to birth a Starborn - tracks her down & kills her so that Harry’s most powerful parent can’t protect him anymore.
He has no desire to raise a child (especially with a tongue), so he figures that he’ll just get to Harry as an adult when he can lie/reason with him (something Nic is very good at & has a lot of experience doing). Nic is the only other person apart from Mab/ Lea who goes to great lengths to recruit Harry rather than kill him, which they could both have easily done.
I’d argue that it’s not far from Nic’s usual MO of doing whatever he wants in the middle of other people’s plans.
For example:
In DM, Marcone pays the Churchmice to steal the Shroud, Nic intercepts it. Nic also intercepts Ursharavas’ prophecy to Harry. In SmF, Nic kidnaps Marcone, but then intercepts the arbiter (Ivy) before the parley.
So my point here is that Nic has a habit of doing something while the other parties don’t even know he’s involved till the last minute (Anduriel’s powers make this easier no doubt).
Side WAG
If the theory that Nic kidnapped Marcone specifically to get Ivy is true, the I also wouldn’t be surprised if he were involved in the death of Ivy’s grandmother (who died in a freak automobile accident, which sounds like an extremely powerful entropy curse to me) & mother (who committed suicide - maybe because a Fallen whispered something like 7 words in her ear?) - all to make the Archive finally vulnerable to his control down the line.
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I’d argue that it’s not far from Nic’s usual MO of doing whatever he wants in the middle of other people’s plans.
For example:
In DM, Marcone pays the Churchmice to steal the Shroud, Nic intercepts it. Nic also intercepts Ursharavas’ prophecy to Harry. In SmF, Nic kidnaps Marcone, but then intercepts the arbiter (Ivy) before the parley.
None of your examples actually support your point here.
1) We have WoJ that Nicodemus was the one who hired the Churchmice originally--they just tried to double cross him and get more money.
2) Nicodemus intercepts the prophesy to prevent interference in his plan. It's got nothing to do with other people's plans.
3) Nicodemus kidnapped Marcone specifically to engineer an opportunity to kidnap the Archive--it's his plan, not him interfering in other people's plans.
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I’m not saying I believe that Nic killed Margaret, or the other WAGs I propose in this post, but I do think this line of thought opens up interesting avenues.
The WAG
I think it’s possible that Nic killed Maggie since he is the only other mortal-ish baddie who has access to entropy curses (Barabbas curse), as well as a “corporate sponsor” (Lucifer) to juice it up when he needs to. Eb believes that Lord Raith killed Margaret, but he also believes that she threw her death curse.
She did throw her Death Curse. It's the reason Lord Raith can't feed. Eb was just mistaken as to the effect she had in mind.
Nic knows an awful lot about Harry & Maggie (& how many kids she had). Perhaps he was also invited to the dinner thrown by Maggie & Lord Raith a century ago (or spied on it). He figures out that Maggie has a plan to birth a Starborn - tracks her down & kills her so that Harry’s most powerful parent can’t protect him anymore.
The dinner was not "a century ago." It was right after she took up with Lord Raith, which would have been close to when Thomas was born.
He has no desire to raise a child (especially with a tongue), so he figures that he’ll just get to Harry as an adult when he can lie/reason with him (something Nic is very good at & has a lot of experience doing). Nic is the only other person apart from Mab/ Lea who goes to great lengths to recruit Harry rather than kill him, which they could both have easily done.
This makes little sense to me. Raising Harry from childhood would have been the perfect way to indoctrinate him. Waiting until he's an adult having been raised by other people only makes Nic's supposed goal here harder to obtain.
I mean, consider who is Nic's most trusted and loyal follower -- his actual daughter, who he clearly did raise and allowed to keep her tongue.
I’d argue that it’s not far from Nic’s usual MO of doing whatever he wants in the middle of other people’s plans.
For example:
In DM, Marcone pays the Churchmice to steal the Shroud, Nic intercepts it. Nic also intercepts Ursharavas’ prophecy to Harry. In SmF, Nic kidnaps Marcone, but then intercepts the arbiter (Ivy) before the parley.
As pointed out, those are his plans. All of those situations happen because Nicodemus initiated them.
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I think the Black Council ordered Maggie's death. I don't know if Raith is part of it, or was used by them, or he wasn't involved at all. Harry needed to be removed from his parents. If Harry had been raised by his mother, and father he'd have been the equivalent to Michael Carpenter who was a Starborn wizard.
Malcolm was a man of incredible moral character, and loving father . His mother who had been somewhat of a bad character had reformed herself from the sound of it after she met Malcolm. Harry would have been guided by two loving parents, and would have been trained in wizardry by his mother, and Eb. He would have had a good experience with the White Council rather than a toxic one.
When Harry lost his parents, and taken into Justin's care he was vulnerable. He had been trained to believe that might is right, and would have been an enemy of the White Council under Justin, making him a perfect member of the Black Council.
Harry is a good guy, but he's still vulnerable to the temptation of dark magic, and still capable of going down a dark path. Mirror Mirror will point this out perfectly.
If raised by his loving parents he would have been an incredibly powerful force for good. Now that force may have been removed, and instead an incredibly powerful force for evil.
That in my opinion is why she, and his father were killed. It was done by the Black Council.
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@nadia
I’m not aware of that WoJ; from the text it certainly seems like Marcone is the buyer (especially given the phone conversation in the hotel gala).
Or perhaps it’s like you say, Nic only interferes in his own plans. Perhaps Nic was a key member of the original Starborn plan (which is why he claimed to be fond of Maggie Sr). Harry found out about the Starborn thing from Lash - how would she know about the circumstances of Harry’s birth, unless maybe from Nic? Anduriel would certainly have been able to find out, & we’ve seen the Nickelheads perform extremely complex magic in the series when they needed to.
While Nic wants to recruit Harry, he’s not above killing him if Harry interferes too much in Nic’s plans. Perhaps when Maggie decided to “Bogart” the birth of the Starborn, Nic decides to punish her.
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@Mr. Death
Fair enough about the dinner. Although I’m not so sure that Nic trusts anyone, including Deedee. He is also ruthless & sociopathic, so he probably didn’t want the responsibility of raising a child.
If you remember what Nic tells Harry about why he didn’t help Cassius after the events of DM - it’s because he didn’t want to “help” Cassius, since that would make Snakeboy a parasite who needs Nic’s largesse to thrive & that would be unfair to Cassius - a truly sociopathic line of reasoning. This is towards someone he has known for at least a few centuries.
In Skin Game, Nic orchestrates a false conflict to get Michael away from Deidre because he is afraid that talking to Michael would make Deedee change her mind. While he clearly loves her, he loves his convoluted end goals more since he sacrifices her to pass the Blood Gate - despite running a fanatical cult where members are proud to have their tongues cut off. He could not trust any of them to kill themselves for him, & he didn’t fully trust that his daughter would go through with it either. Not to mention the incestous undertones in their relationship - ranother thing reminiscent of Lord Raith.
The way Nic probably saw it, Thomas did not turn out to be exceptionally magical or Starborn so there was no guarantee that it would work on Harry either. After all, Maggie married a commoner with no talent (Malcolm), so why would Nic want to raise a potential dud? He has no use for such responsibilities, just as he thought when Cassius lost his coin he was of no further use to him.
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@groinkick
I absolutely think that both of Harry’s parents were murdered, especially for the reasons you listed. Not sure if it was the Black Council necessarily, but certainly her enemies (which seem to have been myriad from what is said about her)
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@Mr. Death
Fair enough about the dinner. Although I’m not so sure that Nic trusts anyone, including Deedee. He is also ruthless & sociopathic, so he probably didn’t want the responsibility of raising a child.
If you remember what Nic tells Harry about why he didn’t help Cassius after the events of DM - it’s because he didn’t want to “help” Cassius, since that would make Snakeboy a parasite who needs Nic’s largesse to thrive & that would be unfair to Cassius - a truly sociopathic line of reasoning. This is towards someone he has known for at least a few centuries.
In Skin Game, Nic orchestrates a false conflict to get Michael away from Deidre because he is afraid that talking to Michael would make Deedee change her mind. While he clearly loves her, he loves his convoluted end goals more since he sacrifices her to pass the Blood Gate - despite running a fanatical cult where members are proud to have their tongues cut off. He could not trust any of them to kill themselves for him, & he didn’t fully trust that his daughter would go through with it either. Not to mention the incestous undertones in their relationship - ranother thing reminiscent of Lord Raith.
The way Nic probably saw it, Thomas did not turn out to be exceptionally magical or Starborn so there was no guarantee that it would work on Harry either. After all, Maggie married a commoner with no talent (Malcolm), so why would Nic want to raise a potential dud? He has no use for such responsibilities, just as he thought when Cassius lost his coin he was of no further use to him.
I think you're underselling Nic's trust in Deirdre; it seems to me more on the 'trust, but verify' level that he distrusts her, simply because he's asking the ultimate question and so has been unable to really test the waters properly (and as the only sensible bad guy, he rather doesn't pit himself against survival instincts if he can help it but instead prepares to deflect such snags to his plans).
Of course, that reading of the Nic-Deirdre relationship is what Michael and Harry use against him in the Vault and it doesn't quite work (who knows why) - but IF it is correct, it throws the rest of your analysis in doubt.
IF raising Deirdre from birth gave him one truly loyal ally, raising Harry could have given him another which would appeal to a powermonger with a long view like Nic is. And he (in my view) would have done it.
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@Avernite
Dunno, there’s no guarantee that raising Harry will make him turn out to be like Deidre - if that were the case, Harry wouldn’t have rebelled as seriously against Justin (Elaine didn’t). Or that Harry would be more drawn the magically talented Tessa (opp of Deedee). Maybe Nic has had hundreds of kids over the last 2 millennia & Deidre is the only one who survived.
My point does not hinge on trust issues between biological father & daughter over centuries - why would Nic treat Harry as a son?? The reason I brought up Nic’s callous treatment of Cassius is because child or not, Nic would put Harry in that category, not the same as his own flesh & blood....
AND besides, Nic doesn’t know if Harry got any gifts from his mother - & won’t until the latter comes of age around puberty. So Nic would have to raise/ indoctrinate a child from 0-14/15 even though there is a high likelihood that kid will turn out like Thomas or worse (barely magical & not Starborn). Not a great bet from his angle - easier to let someone else raise Harry & then corrupt him through logic/ lies/ Coin.
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@Mr. Death
Fair enough about the dinner. Although I’m not so sure that Nic trusts anyone, including Deedee. He is also ruthless & sociopathic, so he probably didn’t want the responsibility of raising a child.
That's belied by the fact that he obviously did raise a child, Deirdre. I don't see any support in the books for the idea that Nic wouldn't want to raise a child -- it's not like he's without time or resources.
If you remember what Nic tells Harry about why he didn’t help Cassius after the events of DM - it’s because he didn’t want to “help” Cassius, since that would make Snakeboy a parasite who needs Nic’s largesse to thrive & that would be unfair to Cassius - a truly sociopathic line of reasoning. This is towards someone he has known for at least a few centuries.
Totally different situation -- that was after Cassius had proven that he wasn't up to snuff, and was trying to get back the only real power he'd ever had. Cassius wasn't his child, adopted or otherwise.
In Skin Game, Nic orchestrates a false conflict to get Michael away from Deidre because he is afraid that talking to Michael would make Deedee change her mind. While he clearly loves her, he loves his convoluted end goals more since he sacrifices her to pass the Blood Gate - despite running a fanatical cult where members are proud to have their tongues cut off. He could not trust any of them to kill themselves for him, & he didn’t fully trust that his daughter would go through with it either. Not to mention the incestous undertones in their relationship - ranother thing reminiscent of Lord Raith.
And would he have trusted her more if he'd let someone else raise her without instilling her in the values Nic wanted, and without her knowing he even existed until well into her adulthood?
The way Nic probably saw it, Thomas did not turn out to be exceptionally magical or Starborn so there was no guarantee that it would work on Harry either. After all, Maggie married a commoner with no talent (Malcolm), so why would Nic want to raise a potential dud? He has no use for such responsibilities, just as he thought when Cassius lost his coin he was of no further use to him.
I think you're really overselling how much of a burden raising a kid would be for Nic. And if he's a dud? Kill him or make him a squire. The man is 2,000 years old. 10-15 raising a kid is nothing to him.
@Avernite
Dunno, there’s no guarantee that raising Harry will make him turn out to be like Deidre - if that were the case, Harry wouldn’t have rebelled as seriously against Justin (Elaine didn’t). Or that Harry would be more drawn the magically talented Tessa (opp of Deedee). Maybe Nic has had hundreds of kids over the last 2 millennia & Deidre is the only one who survived.
You know what absolutely guarantees that Harry won't turn out like Deirdre?
Not being raised by Nic.
My point does not hinge on trust issues between biological father & daughter over centuries - why would Nic treat Harry as a son?? The reason I brought up Nic’s callous treatment of Cassius is because child or not, Nic would put Harry in that category, not the same as his own flesh & blood....
Because if he treated Harry like a son, he could more easily mold and manipulate him.
How Nicodemus treats Cassius is irrelevant. Nicodemus never would have had any reason to treat Cassius like or think of him as a son.
AND besides, Nic doesn’t know if Harry got any gifts from his mother - & won’t until the latter comes of age around puberty. So Nic would have to raise/ indoctrinate a child from 0-14/15 even though there is a high likelihood that kid will turn out like Thomas or worse (barely magical & not Starborn). Not a great bet from his angle - easier to let someone else raise Harry & then corrupt him through logic/ lies/ Coin.
Again, the "time wasted" element is meaningless for a man who's immortal and well over 2,000 years old. If Harry turns out to not have any magical potential, it would be trivially easy for Nic to either kill him (he's always got a use for human sacrifice) or make him one of the Squires.
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Why would Nic want a Starborn?
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Why wouldn't he? The ability to fight and/or control Outsiders is a pretty big deal.
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Why wouldn't he? The ability to fight and/or control Outsiders is a pretty big deal.
In every case we have seen to the present, he is interested in some goal unrelated to any battle with the outsiders. Generally involving Holy artifacts. His move is to put a coin on someone, which he has already tried with Harry. He did it with Deidre.
Look for the person or persons who shielded Maggie so she could have Harry. My WAG is that the protection expired at the live birth of Harry. Maybe Lea did that, probably not Mab. Maggie knew she was the walking dead, don't ya think? She was making ready when she left, she evidently had Thomas prepped. She bargained with the Sidhe, she gave her map to Lea to hold for Harry, she left messages for both boys. This is a Winter story line. Or am I just breathing moon dust?
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This makes little sense to me. Raising Harry from childhood would have been the perfect way to indoctrinate him. Waiting until he's an adult having been raised by other people only makes Nic's supposed goal here harder to obtain.
I mean, consider who is Nic's most trusted and loyal follower -- his actual daughter, who he clearly did raise and allowed to keep her tongue.
Just to play devil's advocate here, he could have needed Harry to develop the obstreperousness that he now has--Nic has said that it is why he can trust that Harry has not been corrupted by the "Black Council."
If you remember what Nic tells Harry about why he didn’t help Cassius after the events of DM - it’s because he didn’t want to “help” Cassius, since that would make Snakeboy a parasite who needs Nic’s largesse to thrive & that would be unfair to Cassius - a truly sociopathic line of reasoning. This is towards someone he has known for at least a few centuries.
I'd always assumed that he was lying. I mean, the situation was that Nic was trying to convince Harry to work with him, and Harry said that Cassius was one reason why he wouldn't. I just thought that Nic just came up with a plausible-sounding reason for Harry rather than say that it was because Cassius betrayed him (Nic knows that Harry would be inclined to work against him at first, and wouldn't want to discourage Harry working for him at least part-time because of it).
I think you're underselling Nic's trust in Deirdre; it seems to me more on the 'trust, but verify' level that he distrusts her, simply because he's asking the ultimate question and so has been unable to really test the waters properly (and as the only sensible bad guy, he rather doesn't pit himself against survival instincts if he can help it but instead prepares to deflect such snags to his plans).
Definitely.
Dunno, there’s no guarantee that raising Harry will make him turn out to be like Deidre - if that were the case, Harry wouldn’t have rebelled as seriously against Justin (Elaine didn’t). Or that Harry would be more drawn the magically talented Tessa (opp of Deedee).
Justin also didn't raise Harry from the moment he was born. And I have no trouble believing that Nic would find it easy to keep Harry away from Tessa, especially since he had his own magic-user in Cassius.
Because if he treated Harry like a son, he could more easily mold and manipulate him.
This.
In every case we have seen to the present, he is interested in some goal unrelated to any battle with the outsiders.
Actually, a good chunk of his interactions with Harry in Small Favor imply that he's working against Outsiders/Nemesis.
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In every case we have seen to the present, he is interested in some goal unrelated to any battle with the outsiders. Generally involving Holy artifacts. His move is to put a coin on someone, which he has already tried with Harry. He did it with Deidre.
Because, of course, the things we see from Nicodemus are the entirety of his plans, right?
Also, remind me what artifact we've seen that has been the most effective in battle against Outsiders, so effective that the guy wielding it didn't even realize they were supposed to be difficult to fight?
Amoracchius. A holy artifact.
And what did Mab send Harry to get, as weapons to prepare for war with the Outsiders?
A bunch of holy artifacts.
Look for the person or persons who shielded Maggie so she could have Harry.
This sentence in itself is WAG -- we don't know that anybody "shielded" Maggie. By all appearances and the text of the book, Maggie just ran away from everyone and was away from all her prior connections when she conceived and had Harry.
The whole idea that Harry was the result of this massive conspiracy is WAG more than it is text.
Certainly there are hints that Harry's birth was special, and that now people are very interested in Harry, but the idea that half the supernatural world played midwife to it runs contrary to nearly everything we've learned about that part of Maggie Sr.'s life.
Just to play devil's advocate here, he could have needed Harry to develop the obstreperousness that he now has--Nic has said that it is why he can trust that Harry has not been corrupted by the "Black Council."
He also apparently trusted that Deirdre wasn't corrupted.
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Because, of course, the things we see from Nicodemus are the entirety of his plans, right?
Also, remind me what artifact we've seen that has been the most effective in battle against Outsiders, so effective that the guy wielding it didn't even realize they were supposed to be difficult to fight?
Amoracchius. A holy artifact.
And what did Mab send Harry to get, as weapons to prepare for war with the Outsiders?
A bunch of holy artifacts.
And what was Nic after? I don't know what his plan is, I just know what he does, and it hasn't been chasing Starborns. If Nic had wanted Harry he would have had him.This sentence in itself is WAG -- we don't know that anybody "shielded" Maggie. By all appearances and the text of the book, Maggie just ran away from everyone and was away from all her prior connections when she conceived and had Harry.
The whole idea that Harry was the result of this massive conspiracy is WAG more than it is text.
Certainly there are hints that Harry's birth was special, and that now people are very interested in Harry, but the idea that half the supernatural world played midwife to it runs contrary to nearly everything we've learned about that part of Maggie Sr.'s life.
He also apparently trusted that Deirdre wasn't corrupted.
We know Raith attempted to enthrall her, and at least partially succeeded if only for a while. Certainly she was around long enough to have him acquire enough of whatever he needed to track her. If it was Raith, why did he wait? When she ran with whatever secrets she had, why not then, rather than later. More specifically right after she delivers. Not before or later but right during the act. And she didn't hide in Faerie but in the human world. Here is the relevant part of the semi official timeline.26 BSF, some time between August and October – Malcolm Dresden and his heavily-pregnant wife Margaret visit the Lincoln Memorial.
26 BSF, October 31: Harry is born. Harry’s mother, now Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden, dies in childbirth. She is murdered by a ritual entropy curse, courtesy of Lord Raith.
And why in the hell did she go to the Lincoln Memorial? She was Lincoln's contemporary. :)
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And what was Nic after? I don't know what his plan is, I just know what he does, and it hasn't been chasing Starborns. If Nic had wanted Harry he would have had him.
Are you forgetting that Nic has tried to recruit Harry like three times by then?
Nic obviously wants Harry on his side.
We know Raith attempted to enthrall her, and at least partially succeeded if only for a while. Certainly she was around long enough to have him acquire enough of whatever he needed to track her. If it was Raith, why did he wait? When she ran with whatever secrets she had, why not then, rather than later. More specifically right after she delivers. Not before or later but right during the act. And she didn't hide in Faerie but in the human world.
Who said he waited? Remember that Maggie was a powerful wizard in her own right who knew Lord Raith well enough to truly hurt him with her death curse. I can very much believe that she was simply able to defend herself and evade him until something big -- like, you know, giving birth -- made it impossible for her to keep up those defenses.
A character taking an action a certain way does not mean that they deliberately intended to do it that way.
Here is the relevant part of the semi official timeline.And why in the hell did she go to the Lincoln Memorial? She was Lincoln's contemporary. :)
And that bit tells us absolutely nothing about the meantime.
Again, don't assume any one character is in such total control that everything they do is deliberately, purposefully timed. Lord Raith is no more immune to someone throwing a wrench in his plans than Harry is.
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He also apparently trusted that Deirdre wasn't corrupted.
Devil's advocate again, I've heard a theory that part of the reason Nic was so willing to sacrifice her (without even trying a Squire first) was because he knew she was infected and it was the only way he knew to cure her. (In this theory, her love was too strong for Nemesis to corrupt, but it could have gotten to other things; and Nic is almost certainly planning a rescue mission now that she's free of Nemesis.)
And why in the hell did she go to the Lincoln Memorial? She was Lincoln's contemporary.
When and where did we find out that Margaret went to the Lincoln Memorial?
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I'm of the opinion that none of the Fallen are Nemfected. I don't even know if they could be. I just think that there are two sides in this fight, and some of them have picked the side of the Old Ones, and Outsiders. Remember Harry was promised by He Who Walks Before that if he joined them that he, and his loved ones would be protected from harm.
My belief is that the Black Council includes some of the Fallen and the idea is that they will be rulers along side the Old Ones in the new world order.
The only nemfected people I can be sure were infected have been Sidhe. The FBI agents were corrupted but from the Wolf Belts which were just channeling dark magic much the same as a wizard going bad for doing the same thing. Who besides the Sidhe can we say for certain have been effected by Nemesis?
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I'm of the opinion that none of the Fallen are Nemfected. I don't even know if they could be.
The Fallen, sure, but what about their hosts?
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When and where did we find out that Margaret went to the Lincoln Memorial?
I got it from the series timeline hosted on Jim's site (http://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline). Maintained by Priscellie.Are you forgetting that Nic has tried to recruit Harry like three times by then?
Nic obviously wants Harry on his side.
Each time by offering the coin. It's what he does.Who said he waited? Remember that Maggie was a powerful wizard in her own right who knew Lord Raith well enough to truly hurt him with her death curse. I can very much believe that she was simply able to defend herself and evade him until something big -- like, you know, giving birth -- made it impossible for her to keep up those defenses.
A character taking an action a certain way does not mean that they deliberately intended to do it that way.
And that bit tells us absolutely nothing about the meantime.
Again, don't assume any one character is in such total control that everything they do is deliberately, purposefully timed. Lord Raith is no more immune to someone throwing a wrench in his plans than Harry is.
I'm all for giving random chance latitude. So I'm left to reconcile some facts which make no sense. She was tagged somehow, since they found her to kill her, whoever they is. And she never planned for the time when she wouldn't be able to shield.
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Each time by offering the coin. It's what he does.
I fail to see how him offering Dresden a coin at all counters the idea that he wants Dresden at least in part because he's a Starborn. Him offering the coin now in no way whatsoever reflects on how he would have done things 30 years earlier in a completely different situation.
I mean, seriously -- letting Harry be raised by anyone else has resulted in Harry wrecking three of Nicodemus's plans, nearly killing him three times, and utterly ruining him.
And you think that's the way Nicodemus preferred to do things, as opposed to raising a Harry that was loyal to him?
I'm all for giving random chance latitude. So I'm left to reconcile some facts which make no sense. She was tagged somehow, since they found her to kill her, whoever they is. And she never planned for the time when she wouldn't be able to shield.
We don't know that they found her. The entropy curse that we see doesn't seem to require a location, just a target. If Lord Raith had known where she is, he wouldn't have been surprised 30 years later when he found out Harry existed.
And, yeah? Giving birth can be a very sudden thing that tends to throw plans out the window, especially if, for instance, it involved her being taken to a hospital without a threshold, and without any wards she might have been relying on.
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I fail to see how him offering Dresden a coin at all counters the idea that he wants Dresden at least in part because he's a Starborn. Him offering the coin now in no way whatsoever reflects on how he would have done things 30 years earlier in a completely different situation.
I mean, seriously -- letting Harry be raised by anyone else has resulted in Harry wrecking three of Nicodemus's plans, nearly killing him three times, and utterly ruining him.
And you think that's the way Nicodemus preferred to do things, as opposed to raising a Harry that was loyal to him?
I don't know what he prefers, I only know what he did. Hid didn't adopt Harry.We don't know that they found her. The entropy curse that we see doesn't seem to require a location, just a target.
The problem I'm having here is why then? Was the curse just hanging out for a couple of years.
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I don't know what he prefers, I only know what he did. Hid didn't adopt Harry.
And people appear to be positing he didn't do this because he didn't want to do this, and in fact purposefully let Harry be raised by someone else.
When the simpler, far more logical explanation is that Nicodemus simply had no say in the matter.
The fact remains that IF Nicodemus knew what Harry's significance was that early, IF he wanted Harry under his thumb and IF he knew where and how to find him, adopting Harry as a child so he could shape Harry's entire outlook from the start is an infinitely smarter thing to do than letting him be raised partly by a man whose values are directly and completely opposed to Nicodemus and his plans, and then trying to tempt him when he's already a grown man set in his ways.
Just because something ended up happening a certain way is not evidence that Nicodemus intended it to work out that way 30 years ago.
The problem I'm having here is why then? Was the curse just hanging out for a couple of years.
Who knows? Maybe he was trying constantly, but she knew how to protect herself. Maybe he only got in touch with HWWB right before he killed her with it. Maybe he thought she was just dead because he couldn't find her.
There are numerous explanations. That we don't know which specific one applies does not amount to evidence that he did it on purpose.
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On the first point we appear to be on the same page. On the second point I don't think I can't carry the thought any further, and as such we'll just have to leave it as, we'll see.
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And people appear to be positing he didn't do this because he didn't want to do this, and in fact purposefully let Harry be raised by someone else.
When the simpler, far more logical explanation is that Nicodemus simply had no say in the matter.
The fact remains that IF Nicodemus knew what Harry's significance was that early, IF he wanted Harry under his thumb and IF he knew where and how to find him, adopting Harry as a child so he could shape Harry's entire outlook from the start is an infinitely smarter thing to do than letting him be raised partly by a man whose values are directly and completely opposed to Nicodemus and his plans, and then trying to tempt him when he's already a grown man set in his ways.
Completely agree with this - my point before about him not caring enough to raise Harry is based on the fact that he didn’t know Harry’s significance at the time. Or perhaps while he was able to direct the Barrabas curse to kill Maggie, he was not able to trace Harry, like the the rest of Maggie’s enemies (& even some allies).
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Or perhaps while he was able to direct the Barrabas curse to kill Maggie, he was not able to trace Harry, like the the rest of Maggie’s enemies (& even some allies).
I'm still not sure why Nic would want to kill Margaret. Malcolm, yes, but what would he accomplish killing Margaret that would not be better accomplished by killing her husband, telling her other enemies where she is, or both? Remember, Jim has said that the Barbarras curse requires a lot of set up, so Nic must have a good reason to use it on the target he chooses.
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Why Maggie was killed 3-4 years after she left Lord Raith is one of the reasons why I created this WAG about it being Nicodemus instead.
As Mr. Death points out, entropy curses don’t seem to need a location, but a target. When Emma is killed by the curse in BR, there is no way LR could have known that she was getting an Evian in the basement at that precise moment. There is also no way Nic could have known exactly where Harry & Susan were (they were in a car) when his entropy curse strikes.
While Maggie could have protected herself against such curses within thresholds & with wards, there is no way that protection could have been 24/7 - as morriswalters points out, she went to the Lincoln Memorial a few days before Harry’s birth.
However, it is the timing of the death that is important here - she dies right after giving birth to Harry, & she had enough time to level her death curse, meaning that the entropy curse wasn’t all that sudden.
Anduriel could have very easily figured out where & when Maggie was vulnerable, conveying the info to Nic for his entropy curse. Another WAG here - perhaps Nic wanted to kill her before she gave birth & if he was using corporate to juice up his curse, perhaps Uriel was able to make the curse hit after the birth. This would explain why he didn’t try to recruit Harry as a kid.
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Devil's advocate again, I've heard a theory that part of the reason Nic was so willing to sacrifice her (without even trying a Squire first) was because he knew she was infected and it was the only way he knew to cure her. (In this theory, her love was too strong for Nemesis to corrupt, but it could have gotten to other things; and Nic is almost certainly planning a rescue mission now that she's free of Nemesis.)
I hadn’t heard that one - it’s very interesting & could add a layer to why Mab wanted Nic to sacrifice his own daughter other than just punishment.
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Another WAG here - perhaps Nic wanted to kill her before she gave birth & if he was using corporate to juice up his curse, perhaps Uriel was able to make the curse hit after the birth.
Uriel might not have needed to interfere directly. The entropy curse basically has the effect of "make catastrophically bad things happen until the target dies" so I can see arranging for the "catastrophic thing" that kills her to be childbirth as well within TWG's coincidence-adjusting powers without need for anything special.
Still leaves the question of why Nic wanted to kill Harry before he was born, though, especially since when he does run into Harry he tries recruiting him.
(On a tangentially related note, have people noticed how much every Denarian except for Dierdre was working at cross purposes with regards to Harry in Death Masks? I mean, Nic wants to keep Harry uninvolved, or if not then to recruit him; Cassius deliberately involves him as a pawn; and Ursiel just tries to kill him apropos of nothing. It really demonstrates how spectacularly bad Denarians are at working together.)
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I'm of the opinion that none of the Fallen are Nemfected. I don't even know if they could be. I just think that there are two sides in this fight, and some of them have picked the side of the Old Ones, and Outsiders. Remember Harry was promised by He Who Walks Before that if he joined them that he, and his loved ones would be protected from harm.
My belief is that the Black Council includes some of the Fallen and the idea is that they will be rulers along side the Old Ones in the new world order.
The only nemfected people I can be sure were infected have been Sidhe. The FBI agents were corrupted but from the Wolf Belts which were just channeling dark magic much the same as a wizard going bad for doing the same thing. Who besides the Sidhe can we say for certain have been effected by Nemesis?
I had actually made a thread about a WAG I had about this topic a while back. My theory is that Nemesis is most effective on immortals since the greatest benefit it seems to confer in its inhabitants is the ability to deviate from their base nature (which cannot do since they don’t have free will). This would not be a major advantage to mortals who already have free will.
Regarding your second point about who all have been Nfected outside the Sidhe - good question. Here is my list of suspects:
- Ferrovax - a conjecture based on what the athame did to Lea
- Vittorio Malvora - how was he able to throw an enhanced, overpowered despair “spell” without being Nfected? And he was working with/ for Cowl who is known to be passing out Nfected items (athame)
- One of the Ortega’s in the RCV - likely Ariana
- Fomor - likely someone who is #2 or 3 in command but wants to move up
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Why Maggie was killed 3-4 years after she left Lord Raith is one of the reasons why I created this WAG about it being Nicodemus instead.
As Mr. Death points out, entropy curses don’t seem to need a location, but a target. When Emma is killed by the curse in BR, there is no way LR could have known that she was getting an Evian in the basement at that precise moment. There is also no way Nic could have known exactly where Harry & Susan were (they were in a car) when his entropy curse strikes.
Let me clear some brush away. Either the curse has to follow a link, blood or something on that line, or the caster needs to know where and when. Andurial could have known exactly where Harry and Susan were, assuming they cast shadows. That is established in Skin Game. I'm assuming in the case of Maggie's death that the link was Thomas. Here is my support for that position.“Because…” I frowned. “Uh…” I looked up at Charity for a moment. Actually, there was a magical connection between parents and children. A strong one. My mother had worked a spell linked to Thomas and me that would confirm to us that we were brothers. The connection had been established, even though she had been the only common parent between us. The blood connection was the deepest known to magic. “It might work,” I said quietly. I thought about it some more and breathed, “Stars and stones, not just work. Actually, for this spell, it might work better.”
I'm also assuming that the link was how she cursed Raith. We have also established canon that the Sidhe are able to shield people from tracking spells. As demonstrated in Turn Coat, Summer hides Morgan in just that fashion.
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Another thing to remember -- if Lord Raith was using the HWWB Entropy Curse, he had to do it at specific times.
Maggie doesn't have to protect herself 24/7. She just has to protect herself at about quarter to midnight, or quarter to noon.
And that's assuming that Lord Raith would be casting it every day -- it does not appear to be a persistent, "Hang around until the target dies" curse. It goes off once, causes a singular event that attacks the target, who then lives or dies.
I think it's safe to assume that Lord Raith wasn't casting it every twelve hours. He has other things to do, after all.
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I had actually made a thread about a WAG I had about this topic a while back. My theory is that Nemesis is most effective on immortals since the greatest benefit it seems to confer in its inhabitants is the ability to deviate from their base nature (which cannot do since they don’t have free will). This would not be a major advantage to mortals who already have free will.
Regarding your second point about who all have been Nfected outside the Sidhe - good question. Here is my list of suspects:
- Ferrovax - a conjecture based on what the athame did to Lea
- Vittorio Malvora - how was he able to throw an enhanced, overpowered despair “spell” without being Nfected? And he was working with/ for Cowl who is known to be passing out Nfected items (athame)
- One of the Ortega’s in the RCV - likely Ariana
- Fomor - likely someone who is #2 or 3 in command but wants to move up
I personally believe Nemesis is very much overused; why explain by Nemfection what can be explained otherwise, like by free-willed alignment with the Outsiders?
Ferrovax seems a few steps in power above the known targets - it is not a given he even CAN be Nemfected, but if he can, sure, he'd be a great target.
Malvora was a free-willed individual; he can have been empowered by Cowl without being directly Nemfected - he had perfectly fine reasons to try most of what he did, and carrying the empowerment around may have slowly driven him mad with power to explain the minor discrepancies.
The Ortega's were profiting tremendously from their alliance with Outsiders; the prime reason the Council was getting occasional very painful losses. Alliance, not Nemfection, seems a perfect explanation.
The Fomor #2/3 would have the same incentives as the Ortega's, so eh, why not simply ally?
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Uriel might not have needed to interfere directly. The entropy curse basically has the effect of "make catastrophically bad things happen until the target dies" so I can see arranging for the "catastrophic thing" that kills her to be childbirth as well within TWG's coincidence-adjusting powers without need for anything special.
Still leaves the question of why Nic wanted to kill Harry before he was born, though, especially since when he does run into Harry he tries recruiting him.
(On a tangentially related note, have people noticed how much every Denarian except for Dierdre was working at cross purposes with regards to Harry in Death Masks? I mean, Nic wants to keep Harry uninvolved, or if not then to recruit him; Cassius deliberately involves him as a pawn; and Ursiel just tries to kill him apropos of nothing. It really demonstrates how spectacularly bad Denarians are at working together.)
Hmm there are a few reasons I can think of for Nic to kill Maggie. Perhaps he wanted to kill her so that Harry’s most powerful parent (& source of protection) would be gone & since everyone suspects Raith, he could get away with it. He then circles back to kill Malcolm a few years later to allay the suspicions of Lea & Eb + his allies/ friends who are keeping an eye on Maggie’s kid. However he is unable to get Harry due to an intervention by team UMO, who whisk him away to a mundane orphanage - the last place Nic would think to look for such an important asset to be stashed. It’s even possible that Eb left little Harry at the orphanage, just like how Harry asks for Maggie Jr. to be taken to Father Forthill.
However Simon (Cowl) who is one of Eb’s friends/ allies & included in this plan, lets his former apprentice Justin know that 2 Starborn kids have been stashed in mundane orphanages around the country & that he should go & pick them up.
Or perhaps he, like Lord Raith wanted revenge for something she might have done in the past (like trying to leave the Starborn conspiracy, or something else) & he got her when she was most vulnerable- at childbirth.
Or perhaps he didn’t want a Starborn around before as it would be detrimental to his apocalyptic plans but now that there is one, & Nemesis seems to be in the middle of another sortie, he decides to use the tools he’s got.
Regarding your final point about Deidre not being cross purposes with Harry in DM - she basically does what Nic wants since she seems to love & respect him the most, so I would regard her as Nic’s lackey in that book.
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Another thing to remember -- if Lord Raith was using the HWWB Entropy Curse, he had to do it at specific times.
Maggie doesn't have to protect herself 24/7. She just has to protect herself at about quarter to midnight, or quarter to noon.
And that's assuming that Lord Raith would be casting it every day -- it does not appear to be a persistent, "Hang around until the target dies" curse. It goes off once, causes a singular event that attacks the target, who then lives or dies.
I think it's safe to assume that Lord Raith wasn't casting it every twelve hours. He has other things to do, after all.
Agreed, & maybe she was so focused on protecting herself from Lord Raith, that Nic was able to sneak up on her?
Just to be contrary - Raith Sr. is supposed to have quite the magical library & is known for his use of entropy curses. I wouldn't be surprised if he had rituals that called out to other entities than just HWWB, so the time of the day issue may be a non-issue.
@Avernite
Agreed, it is overplayed. I was only listing suspects since we don’t have any textual evidence so far of non-Fae being Nfected. I also believe that Nemesis can only infect a certain number of people at any given time - 3/5/7 (there have to be some limits to its power).
@morriswalters
The spell being referenced is not an entropy curse - it’s a long term spell, so it has to be rooted in something that will last a while (like a WCV or wizard). The only entropy curse we see being performed is the one with Thomas as the target at the end of BR & his location is not mentioned, at least in the English-speaking parts of the ritual.
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At the confrontation in the Raith Deeps, Thomas is the sacrifice, Harry is the target.
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@morriswalters
My mistake - you’re right about Harry being target & Thomas being the fuel
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Did Lord Raith's HWWB entropy curse always need a human sacrifice?
If so, that's another reason he took so long to get Maggie -- even he probably can't get away with sacrificing a person a day for that. Eventually someone would notice, and the logical conclusion would be that the White King has lost control of his feeding and is now weak; and if they actually did know why, they'd find out that A. he's obsessed with revenge and B. he's been totally ineffective at it.
Ergo, if the spell needs a human sacrifice, I think that makes it more likely he held it in reserve until he was sure he had a good shot at her.
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@Mr. Death
I started this thread with the thought that it could be Nic who kills Maggie with his entropy curse, but just to play devil’s advocate, you’re assuming that Lord Raith had just the one entropy curse up his sleeve. Also as the King of a nation of vampires, I’m sure through his Court he could get as many mortals to sacrifice as he needs. I mean people like Madeline seem to drain a person every day or couple of days. Can you imagine what the entire WCV goes through daily?
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@Mr. Death
I started this thread with the thought that it could be Nic who kills Maggie with his entropy curse, but just to play devil’s advocate, you’re assuming that Lord Raith had just the one entropy curse up his sleeve. Also as the King of a nation of vampires, I’m sure through his Court he could get as many mortals to sacrifice as he needs. I mean people like Madeline seem to drain a person every day or couple of days. Can you imagine what the entire WCV goes through daily?
I think it's the main one we've seen and it's a very powerful curse, the kind of thing that he'd need/want to get to a powerful wizard. Plus, the HWWB connection is too good to pass up.
Madeline is noted as being something of an out-of-control loose cannon. Others, like Lord Raith and Lara, tend to drag it out for weeks or even months, based on their dialog, and they disapprove of how Madeline treats her prey based on White Night.
But for the White King to go through a person a day, that'd be up there with the Red King's near-junky tendencies. It'd be a sign of weakness.
And if he sacrifices that person a day to try and kill another person -- and keeps failing to do so -- that's yet more weakness.
And while I'll agree that Nic could have killed Maggie, I just don't see him wanting to, or a good motive for it.
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And while I'll agree that Nic could have killed Maggie, I just don't see him wanting to, or a good motive for it.
This is my issue as well. I can think of many reasons for Nic to be potentially upset at Margaret, or to want to influence Harry, but none of them would make killing Margaret Nic's best plan.
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In the years since Harry was born no one became aware that Raith couldn't feed at all. So it isn't a stretch to think he could have used as many sacrifices as he wanted. And since we only saw one instance of the curse being cast it's hard to say if it required a sacrifice. However Raith isn't written as an idiot, so I have a hard time thinking that he shot a gun without being certain of his target.
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In the years since Harry was born no one became aware that Raith couldn't feed at all. So it isn't a stretch to think he could have used as many sacrifices as he wanted.
Those two things really don't reflect on each other. It's a lot easier to hide not killing people than it is to hide killing them by the hundreds.
And since we only saw one instance of the curse being cast it's hard to say if it required a sacrifice. However Raith isn't written as an idiot, so I have a hard time thinking that he shot a gun without being certain of his target.
Agreed, we don't know it for certain, though I think Lord Raith makes reference to using one of the three as a previous sacrifice, because she had targeted Inari.
And certainly he knew who his target was; the question is whether he kept firing when it became clear he couldn't hit her.
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Is everybody certain that Margaret McCoy Dresden is actually dead. We know Dresden's dad is dead because his soul came back for a visit in Dead Beat. But do we have any specific trustworthy evidence that she is dead. For example, did Lea specifically SAY that she was dead. Not gone, not missed - but dead.
Going by the comic book rule. If you do not see the body, then you cannot assume that the person is really dead. Even if you see the body, there is still a chance they are not really dead.
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Is everybody certain that Margaret McCoy Dresden is actually dead. We know Dresden's dad is dead because his soul came back for a visit in Dead Beat. But do we have any specific trustworthy evidence that she is dead. For example, did Lea specifically SAY that she was dead. Not gone, not missed - but dead.
Going by the comic book rule. If you do not see the body, then you cannot assume that the person is really dead. Even if you see the body, there is still a chance they are not really dead.
Well, she used her death curse. That would mean she's pretty dead.
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Is everybody certain that Margaret McCoy Dresden is actually dead. We know Dresden's dad is dead because his soul came back for a visit in Dead Beat. But do we have any specific trustworthy evidence that she is dead. For example, did Lea specifically SAY that she was dead. Not gone, not missed - but dead.
Going by the comic book rule. If you do not see the body, then you cannot assume that the person is really dead. Even if you see the body, there is still a chance they are not really dead.
Literally every single reference anyone has ever made of her has been that she's dead. A demon from Hell lamented that when she died she went to heaven. Ebenezer McCoy stated outright that she's dead. She used her death curse. Jim said she's dead.
So, yes. She's dead. There's nothing in any of the books or Word of Jim that has ever suggested that she's still alive.
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@nadia & Mr. Death
Oh I personally believe Raith or someone allied with him is the likely killer, but I just wanted to point out that Nic could’ve done it. Perhaps a motive will make itself known in the later books.
@dspringer
I also think that Maggie is dead for the reasons listed
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There's nothing in any of the books or Word of Jim that has ever suggested that she's still alive.
God, imagine the fan reaction if, like, Mab pulls off a mask to reveal she's secretly been Margaret the whole time.
I mean, I don't think I'd outright abandon the books at that point, but I can't really be sure.
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That'd be right up there with the whole "Captain America is a HYDRA agent" thing.
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I don't read comics much anymore, but a buddy of mine does. He was so disgusted with that particular turn when it happened because it was so blatant that it would be temporary, even if it was a real thing.
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And since we only saw one instance of the curse being cast it's hard to say if it required a sacrifice.
It's strongly implied that most of the instances of the curse, described in Blood Rites, did not use a human sacrifice. Harry even talks about how a human sacrifice was likely when Emma is killed because it came in so much stronger, if I recall correctly.
The reason Margaret is killed so long after she escapes may be because Raith, or whoever, thought she had been dead like every one else had assumed.
If Nicodemus killed her so he could recruit Harry, why didn't he just come up to him as a kid or something and say "want to see this weird coin?" In that situation, he wouldn't have even needed to kill Harry's dad.
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I'll go full tin hat mode here. Set up the sequence. If Maggie prepped Thomas, when she ran, to act as the conduit for her death curse, then it's arguable that she knew Raith could get at her and in fact she planned for it. He might have had the ritual completed as soon as he was sure she had escaped. Knowing he would do this she went to someone who could hide her. In Turn Coat Summer hides Morgan from the Senior Council, no mean feat. So posit Lea as her benefactor. With herself shielded, the curse just waited. What was the payment? Harry as a Starborn. A possible weapon against the Outsiders. The protection lasted until she produced the payment. And at his birth the curse came home to roost. Malcolm was collateral damage. Taking Lea's tough love philosophy to their natural limits, she murdered Malcolm or caused him to be murdered and name dropped Harry to Justin, in a bid to temper her weapon. Considering the smile on his face maybe Lea had Lara do Malcolm, that's pretty twisted.
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@morriswalters
It makes sense except for a few things - the part where Maggie’s protection ends at childbirth (why?) & the part where Lea gives Harry to Justin for rearing - it just seems unlike her given how much she wants to control Harry in the series. It’s plausible for a few reasons, I’d just rather it not be that.
So basically my WAG in this whole thread is that Maggie disappears/ fakes her death when she leaves Raith sr. This is why he does not look for her & she is able to not only successfully hide - she is able to find a man, get married & have a kid (because Raith wasn’t looking for her).
However Nic is aware of a lot of what she is upto, vis a vis birthing a Starborn. Being a formidable witch, Nic needs to wait until she is most vulnerable - childbirth to point his entropy curse her way.
@Bad Alias
I’m sure he would’ve wanted to get to kid Harry if he could - part of my WAG is that Harry is whisked away to a random orphanage by people seeking to not let this happen. Unfortunately they trust Justin to track Harry...
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I mean there's the WOJ that if and when Harry finds out what the actual deal for Leansidhe being his Godmother, that it would be significant enough that Hary and Lea would duel. Can't seem to find the quote though.
Any help @Serack?
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It’s plausible for a few reasons, I’d just rather it not be that.
Hard to argue with that.
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@kbrizzle: For Harry to be hidden from Nic, I'd need an explanation for why Anduriel can't find him. Either Anduriel needs to know where someone is to watch them, but that's doesn't sound likely to me, or how Harry was hidden from him would work for me.
@Con: I do recall something like that. Also that Margaret "made a very bad deal" or something to that effect.
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@Bad Alias
If it were Nic/Anduriel acting, I’d imagine there would some element of Mab & Uriel working together to obfuscate Harry’s location.
@Con
If the WoJ is true, then @morriswalters version may be the right one (although I’m not convinced of the sequence post Maggie’s death).
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If it were Nic/Anduriel acting, I’d imagine there would some element of Mab & Uriel working together to obfuscate Harry’s location.
I don't buy that because, if that were the case, why wouldn't Mab & Uriel keep doing that for the Skin Game job? I also just don't like the idea that major powers are constantly involved with every aspect of Harry's life all the time. A "Chosen One" narrative is fine; I just don't like it for the Dresden Files. I much prefer a narrative in which Harry keeps sticking his nose into things bigger than him, making a difference, until the players behind the scenes have to take him into account.
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@Bad Alias
They can only monitor, not interfere so long as everyone is playing by the rules. There is free will after all for mortals (as we see when Uriel refuses to help Harry get Maggie Jr back or fix his broken back in Changes).
We know that Uriel can only interfere when someone from the other side has broken a rule - perhaps Anduriel did so in killing Maggie which allowed Uriel to act. Perhaps Lea/ Mab are able to act because Harry is Lea’s godson & she has a sworn duty to protect him.
Sending Harry to an orphanage is likely Lea or Mab’s doing since it strikes me as a little heartless from Uriel.