Author Topic: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?  (Read 20636 times)

Offline Lady Inez

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Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« on: February 15, 2019, 04:17:11 PM »
The other thread on Michael and lies reminded me of something that's been bothering me since Skin Game. When he confesses to Michael what happened at Chichen Itza, does Harry intentionally lie about Martin having enraged Susan with knowledge of his betrayal when in fact Harry forced her to face that and thus set off her rage, leading to her death? Or, worse, is he lying to himself, possibly with the help of the mantle, and so he remembers the events in a way that makes him seem slightly less guilty? Is Harry ashamed of having weaponized Susan's condition in that moment, but craving Michael's approval and forgiveness, or has he insulated himself from what he did? I was really surprised that he didn't tell Michael the truth later in the book, forcing a moment of soul searching in Michael; that doesn't happen, so I'm not certain how to read his version of things.

Offline Con

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2019, 08:02:21 PM »
I thought he was pretty honest about his guilt having to sacrifice Susan, and it was her choice to be sacrificed which Michael notes that theirs a price for Harry to pay with that. Honestly I think the topic was covered well in that scene and dealt with well. The 'soul' Uriel mentions isn't just about Nicodemus and the Squires it's Harry's soul as well, Murphy explicitly says so to Butters.

Offline Lady Inez

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2019, 08:13:49 PM »
I agree, it is a great scene, probably my favorite in the book, but in it Harry explicitly blames Martin for having set off Susan's wrath when in fact Harry made her focus on what Martin had done in order to enrage her enough to kill Martin. Harry tells Michael almost exactly what happened, and is obviously racked with guilt, but he distorts that one detail (arguably the worst thing about what happened, because it intentionally caused Susan's death, however necessary it was to save Maggie). My question is why the distortion: shame or mantle-assisted self-delusion?

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2019, 08:47:27 PM »
Harry clearly tried to manipulate Susan. He told her Lea's spellwork would protect her from iron. He knew that wasn't true. I say he was trying to manipulate Susan because I think Susan would have gone along with Harry's plan if she had been fully informed. Harry didn't need to manipulate her, but did so anyway because he had to do it to get anyone out of there.

Another explanation for Harry not telling Michael the whole truth is that he doesn't remember the whole truth. We know Harry doesn't remember a large chunk of that night. He is probably missing several smaller pieces. Memory is pretty unreliable in the best of situations.

Without getting into why I think so (happy to if anyone cares), the books we are reading are the case files written by Harry years later (in universe, not really because they're clearly fiction written by Jim). If this is the case, there are all sorts of reasons for continuity errors. In character Harry remembers less than author Harry or vice versa. Author Harry could remember more because magic. For example, the antechamber to the tunnels on Demonreach is for "MEMORY" "REFLECTION."

Also it could just be a continuity error, which is always an option.

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2019, 08:51:36 PM »

   It is tricky,  while Harry letting Susan know about Martin's betrayal set her off, it was still her choice to allow herself to be set off..  It was also Martin's betrayal in the first place that put everyone in the position they were in...  Bottom line all would be dead or vamps anyway if Harry hadn't acted.. Little Maggie would be dead, then Harry, then Eb.. Susan would have then gone postal and been turned in any case..  If anything Harry was taking on too much responsibility for something where the only good choice was to allow Susan to act to save their daughter... Then she willingly let him kill her as her final act of humanity to save their daughter.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2019, 09:22:25 PM »
I think Harry has subconsciously rewritten his memory of the incident because he couldn't reconcile the contradictions in what happened any other way (memory is not notoriously reliable--this happens a lot).

Because think about it: what happens?

Harry forces a standing KotC into a position where awful things happen to her, culminating in him sacrificing her in a ritual spell that causes widespread destruction on a scale sufficient that, based on Ghost Story, huge numbers of people are losing hope/compromising their principles--basically, exactly what Nicodemus was trying to pull off in Death Masks.

And then he dies--fair enough, he believes that people who do this kind of thing deserve to die.

Then comes the problem--because everyone says that things were worse because he died. More than that, he was manipulated into dying by one of the Fallen.

And then he comes back, and the only thing that any of his friends and allies object to is that he's the winter knight. They're worried about what he might become, sure, but none of them see a problem in what he's done aside from killing himself.

And he can't cope. He knows he's a monster, knows he deserves to die, because no matter how awful he feels about it he knows that he would do the same again if it were necessary. And yet, all the people whose judgement he trusts above his own don't see the problem--don't acknowledge that there could be a problem. Hell, Karrin is still willing to back him up when he goes to work for Nicodemus of all people, and she was chosen by the Sword of Faith. And Harry knows something is wrong, knows that none of this makes sense but he's not the most self-reflective person, he can't put the problem into words, much less solve it. Something has to give--and I think what gave is Harry's memory about what happened.

None of which, of course, explains why Nicodemus never brings this up, but that's a slightly different issue.

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2019, 03:28:06 PM »
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Harry forces a standing KotC into a position where awful things happen to her, culminating in him sacrificing her in a ritual spell that causes widespread destruction on a scale sufficient that, based on Ghost Story, huge numbers of people are losing hope/compromising their principles--basically, exactly what Nicodemus was trying to pull off in Death Masks.

  Susan wasn't forced into anything,  she wanted to save her daughter.  It was Harry who chose her to wield the Sword of Love, because she was going out of love to save her daughter.  She accepted..  In desperation to save their daughter and everyone else he revealed to her Martin's treachery.  Let's not lose sight that his betrayal is why little Maggie was on the chop block to begin with.. Yes, it pissed her off, but she had been pissed off before, this time she chose to change and rip Martin's throat out..   With her last human breath she begged Harry to end her life to save their daughter. Again, if the above hadn't happened, little Maggie, Harry, and Eb would have died, Susan still would more than likely have changed as soon as little Maggie's heart was cut out..  The spell itself was of the Red King's making to rid himself of Eb and his family,  all Harry did when he killed Susan was reverse the spell and kill the Red King's family....  If you can think of a better way or a less monstrous way to save little Maggie and her rescuers, feel free to write..   

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And he can't cope. He knows he's a monster, knows he deserves to die, because no matter how awful he feels about it he knows that he would do the same again if it were necessary. And yet, all the people whose judgement he trusts above his own don't see the problem--don't acknowledge that there could be a problem. Hell, Karrin is still willing to back him up when he goes to work for Nicodemus of all people, and she was chosen by the Sword of Faith. And Harry knows something is wrong, knows that none of this makes sense but he's not the most self-reflective person, he can't put the problem into words, much less solve it. Something has to give--and I think what gave is Harry's memory about what happened.

Murphy was only chosen as a Knight for the night they went to rescue little Maggie..  As of Skin Game she was no longer a Knight, won't go into the problems that occurred afterwards..  However you neglect to mention that Uriel loaned his Grace to Michael, retired but still a Holy Knight so he could physically accompany Harry on the mission, it was that important..  Also Harry was never really working for Nic in the first place, it was all a double cross orchestrated by Mab, Kringle with a lot of help from Mr Gray...  Harry manages to keep all relics except the Grail out of Nic's hands and selects the next Holy Knight, Butters..   Do you think any of that would happen if Harry was really this deluded monster who is just kidding himself? 

Offline Talby16

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2019, 05:31:25 PM »
Who knows if Susan would have either reached the same conclusion Harry did on her own and acted or if her desperation to save her daughter would have left her with her only alternative to embrace her inner vamp. Harry couldn't chance a delay and gave her a push to get her there out of desperation.

I truly believe that suffered from PTSD due to that event and may have unconsciously blocked out some of the more traumatic moments.

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2019, 06:57:12 PM »
Who knows if Susan would have either reached the same conclusion Harry did on her own and acted or if her desperation to save her daughter would have left her with her only alternative to embrace her inner vamp. Harry couldn't chance a delay and gave her a push to get her there out of desperation.

I truly believe that suffered from PTSD due to that event and may have unconsciously blocked out some of the more traumatic moments.

I agree about the PTSD not just from this but a number of things...  I doubt that Susan would have stood by and watched her daughter, then Harry die and not be affected by it..  Nor do I think she would have just stood there helpless as the Red King proceeded to cut her daughter's heart out.. She would have attacked, either way she was going to die.
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I agree, it is a great scene, probably my favorite in the book, but in it Harry explicitly blames Martin for having set off Susan's wrath when in fact Harry made her focus on what Martin had done in order to enrage her enough to kill Martin. Harry tells Michael almost exactly what happened, and is obviously racked with guilt, but he distorts that one detail (arguably the worst thing about what happened, because it intentionally caused Susan's death, however necessary it was to save Maggie). My question is why the distortion: shame or mantle-assisted self-delusion?

Because of his guilt, he has a hard time admitting to it, yes shame, he cannot face his daughter because he killed her mother... If it was mantle assisted self-delusion, he would be able to rationalize what he did and like a good social-path, feel no guilt at all...
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 07:01:53 PM by Mira »

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2019, 08:11:11 PM »
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Susan wasn't forced into anything,  she wanted to save her daughter.  It was Harry who chose her to wield the Sword of Love, because she was going out of love to save her daughter.  She accepted..  In desperation to save their daughter and everyone else he revealed to her Martin's treachery.  Let's not lose sight that his betrayal is why little Maggie was on the chop block to begin with.. Yes, it pissed her off, but she had been pissed off before, this time she chose to change and rip Martin's throat out..

In Changes, the narration makes it pretty clear that Harry believes that he intentionally manipulated her, and that it was an awful thing to do. I don't have the book with me, but I believe that it was something like "god forgive me for what I did next, because I never will."

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Murphy was only chosen as a Knight for the night they went to rescue little Maggie..  As of Skin Game she was no longer a Knight, won't go into the problems that occurred afterwards.. 

I agree with you, but I think Harry doesn't.

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However you neglect to mention that Uriel loaned his Grace to Michael, retired but still a Holy Knight so he could physically accompany Harry on the mission, it was that important..  Also Harry was never really working for Nic in the first place, it was all a double cross orchestrated by Mab, Kringle with a lot of help from Mr Gray...  Harry manages to keep all relics except the Grail out of Nic's hands and selects the next Holy Knight, Butters..

None of this was clear when Harry told Michael what happened during Changes, and in the same conversation Harry made it clear that he felt that working for Nic contributed to him feeling like a monster even though he was planning to double cross him.

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If you can think of a better way or a less monstrous way to save little Maggie and her rescuers, feel free to write..

I don't think there was a better way at all, but that doesn't change the fact that it was horrible.

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Do you think any of that would happen if Harry was really this deluded monster who is just kidding himself?

I don't think Harry is deluded or a monster--quite the contrary. I think that Harry is a genuinely good person who was put in an impossible situation, coped with it admirably at the time, and fell apart a little afterward. If he wasn't a good person, he would have no reason to feel bad about what happened.

Human brains rewrite memories all the time. It can even be triggered by someone asking questions the wrong way--this is why police officers need to be careful when questioning witnesses. I think Harry is less susceptible to this than most people because he's trained his memory as part of being an investigator, but short of having an eidetic memory no one is immune to it completely.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2019, 09:16:57 PM »
I find nadia.skylark's posts quite insightful and tend to agree with her analysis.

I agree with that Harry took the best, perhaps only, overall option. Harry did manipulate Susan. I don't think he needed to.

Susan probably wasn't going to get the chance to watch anyone die. Once Maggie died, Susan would too.

It doesn't matter whether or not we think Harry did a terrible thing at Chichen Itza. Harry does. People who survive accidents that were in no way there fault often feel guilty. Susan died because of Harry, one way or another. (I mean that in a cause and effect sort of way, not morally). He's going to feel guilty and blame himself. That's Harry.

My position can be summed up in three points. 1. Harry did what he had to at Chichen Itza. 2. He is going to feel guilty about it no matter how right or wrong I am in point 1. 3. He probably doesn't remember it exactly right. He did suffer serious trauma during and after.

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2019, 10:28:11 PM »
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It doesn't matter whether or not we think Harry did a terrible thing at Chichen Itza. Harry does. People who survive accidents that were in no way there fault often feel guilty. Susan died because of Harry, one way or another. (I mean that in a cause and effect sort of way, not morally). He's going to feel guilty and blame himself. That's Harry.

  Susan didn't die because of Harry,  the seeds of her death were planted way back in Storm Front, long before Harry.  She liked to write about the supernatural, expose it, used Harry, though yeah came to love him, to gain fame and fortune in her career...  She gave lip service to believing what she saw and experienced but she never paid it enough respect, so like a great many dangerous things it bit her in the ass...  Even if she had never met Harry in my opinion Susan was destined to die by some supernatural means or another simply because brave as she was and smart as she was, she was always in over her head.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2019, 11:29:53 PM »
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Susan didn't die because of Harry,  the seeds of her death were planted way back in Storm Front, long before Harry.  She liked to write about the supernatural, expose it, used Harry, though yeah came to love him, to gain fame and fortune in her career...  She gave lip service to believing what she saw and experienced but she never paid it enough respect, so like a great many dangerous things it bit her in the ass...  Even if she had never met Harry in my opinion Susan was destined to die by some supernatural means or another simply because brave as she was and smart as she was, she was always in over her head.

I agree with you. However, I'm fairly certain that Harry wouldn't.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2019, 02:14:34 AM »
  Susan didn't die because of Harry,  the seeds of her death were planted way back in Storm Front, long before Harry.  She liked to write about the supernatural, expose it, used Harry, though yeah came to love him, to gain fame and fortune in her career...  She gave lip service to believing what she saw and experienced but she never paid it enough respect, so like a great many dangerous things it bit her in the ass...  Even if she had never met Harry in my opinion Susan was destined to die by some supernatural means or another simply because brave as she was and smart as she was, she was always in over her head.

If she never got involved with Harry, she may very well never have had the chance to get involved enough with the supernatural to get killed. Or she could have learned about them slow enough to respect the danger. Harry gave her access.

If she hadn't had a child with Harry, she could have continued to fight the Red Court at arms length instead of a direct confrontation.

Susan is at fault for what happened to her in Grave Peril. She was stupid to ignore Harry saying it was dangerous. The woman who replaced Susan hasn't gotten into any serious trouble in part because Harry keeps her at arms length because of what happened with Susan.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2019, 02:45:35 AM »
The other thread on Michael and lies reminded me of something that's been bothering me since Skin Game. When he confesses to Michael what happened at Chichen Itza, does Harry intentionally lie about Martin having enraged Susan with knowledge of his betrayal when in fact Harry forced her to face that and thus set off her rage, leading to her death? Or, worse, is he lying to himself, possibly with the help of the mantle, and so he remembers the events in a way that makes him seem slightly less guilty? Is Harry ashamed of having weaponized Susan's condition in that moment, but craving Michael's approval and forgiveness, or has he insulated himself from what he did? I was really surprised that he didn't tell Michael the truth later in the book, forcing a moment of soul searching in Michael; that doesn't happen, so I'm not certain how to read his version of things.

Much as Harry jumped on helping him implement it out of necessity at the last moment, it was still Martin's plan that Susan should kill him and turn. Harry caught that in the soulgaze with Martin; that why he asked Martin how the Reds found Maggie.