Harry forces a standing KotC into a position where awful things happen to her, culminating in him sacrificing her in a ritual spell that causes widespread destruction on a scale sufficient that, based on Ghost Story, huge numbers of people are losing hope/compromising their principles--basically, exactly what Nicodemus was trying to pull off in Death Masks.
And he can't cope. He knows he's a monster, knows he deserves to die, because no matter how awful he feels about it he knows that he would do the same again if it were necessary. And yet, all the people whose judgement he trusts above his own don't see the problem--don't acknowledge that there could be a problem. Hell, Karrin is still willing to back him up when he goes to work for Nicodemus of all people, and she was chosen by the Sword of Faith. And Harry knows something is wrong, knows that none of this makes sense but he's not the most self-reflective person, he can't put the problem into words, much less solve it. Something has to give--and I think what gave is Harry's memory about what happened.
Who knows if Susan would have either reached the same conclusion Harry did on her own and acted or if her desperation to save her daughter would have left her with her only alternative to embrace her inner vamp. Harry couldn't chance a delay and gave her a push to get her there out of desperation.
I truly believe that suffered from PTSD due to that event and may have unconsciously blocked out some of the more traumatic moments.
I agree, it is a great scene, probably my favorite in the book, but in it Harry explicitly blames Martin for having set off Susan's wrath when in fact Harry made her focus on what Martin had done in order to enrage her enough to kill Martin. Harry tells Michael almost exactly what happened, and is obviously racked with guilt, but he distorts that one detail (arguably the worst thing about what happened, because it intentionally caused Susan's death, however necessary it was to save Maggie). My question is why the distortion: shame or mantle-assisted self-delusion?
Susan wasn't forced into anything, she wanted to save her daughter. It was Harry who chose her to wield the Sword of Love, because she was going out of love to save her daughter. She accepted.. In desperation to save their daughter and everyone else he revealed to her Martin's treachery. Let's not lose sight that his betrayal is why little Maggie was on the chop block to begin with.. Yes, it pissed her off, but she had been pissed off before, this time she chose to change and rip Martin's throat out..
Murphy was only chosen as a Knight for the night they went to rescue little Maggie.. As of Skin Game she was no longer a Knight, won't go into the problems that occurred afterwards..
However you neglect to mention that Uriel loaned his Grace to Michael, retired but still a Holy Knight so he could physically accompany Harry on the mission, it was that important.. Also Harry was never really working for Nic in the first place, it was all a double cross orchestrated by Mab, Kringle with a lot of help from Mr Gray... Harry manages to keep all relics except the Grail out of Nic's hands and selects the next Holy Knight, Butters..
If you can think of a better way or a less monstrous way to save little Maggie and her rescuers, feel free to write..
Do you think any of that would happen if Harry was really this deluded monster who is just kidding himself?
It doesn't matter whether or not we think Harry did a terrible thing at Chichen Itza. Harry does. People who survive accidents that were in no way there fault often feel guilty. Susan died because of Harry, one way or another. (I mean that in a cause and effect sort of way, not morally). He's going to feel guilty and blame himself. That's Harry.
Susan didn't die because of Harry, the seeds of her death were planted way back in Storm Front, long before Harry. She liked to write about the supernatural, expose it, used Harry, though yeah came to love him, to gain fame and fortune in her career... She gave lip service to believing what she saw and experienced but she never paid it enough respect, so like a great many dangerous things it bit her in the ass... Even if she had never met Harry in my opinion Susan was destined to die by some supernatural means or another simply because brave as she was and smart as she was, she was always in over her head.
Susan didn't die because of Harry, the seeds of her death were planted way back in Storm Front, long before Harry. She liked to write about the supernatural, expose it, used Harry, though yeah came to love him, to gain fame and fortune in her career... She gave lip service to believing what she saw and experienced but she never paid it enough respect, so like a great many dangerous things it bit her in the ass... Even if she had never met Harry in my opinion Susan was destined to die by some supernatural means or another simply because brave as she was and smart as she was, she was always in over her head.
The other thread on Michael and lies reminded me of something that's been bothering me since Skin Game. When he confesses to Michael what happened at Chichen Itza, does Harry intentionally lie about Martin having enraged Susan with knowledge of his betrayal when in fact Harry forced her to face that and thus set off her rage, leading to her death? Or, worse, is he lying to himself, possibly with the help of the mantle, and so he remembers the events in a way that makes him seem slightly less guilty? Is Harry ashamed of having weaponized Susan's condition in that moment, but craving Michael's approval and forgiveness, or has he insulated himself from what he did? I was really surprised that he didn't tell Michael the truth later in the book, forcing a moment of soul searching in Michael; that doesn't happen, so I'm not certain how to read his version of things.
Much as Harry jumped on helping him implement it out of necessity at the last moment, it was still Martin's plan that Susan should kill him and turn. Harry caught that in the soulgaze with Martin; that why he asked Martin how the Reds found Maggie.
As I remember it, Harry realized what Martin's plan was after he had independently made the choices that allowed it to work.
Also, I personally think that Martin could not possibly have planned things that specifically, and that his actual plan was just to put Harry in a position where he had to use the bloodline curse on the Reds rather than necessarily that he would manipulate Susan into turning. I feel that if Susan hadn't had Amorrachius, then there would be too much chance of Susan dying/not getting as far, and that Martin couldn't reasonably have planned for her getting Amorrachius.
Martin probably planned on turning and being the sacrifice.
Martin probably planned on turning and being the sacrifice.
I agree with that Harry took the best, perhaps only, overall option. Harry did manipulate Susan. I don't think he needed to.
Susan probably wasn't going to get the chance to watch anyone die. Once Maggie died, Susan would too.
It doesn't matter whether or not we think Harry did a terrible thing at Chichen Itza. Harry does. People who survive accidents that were in no way there fault often feel guilty. Susan died because of Harry, one way or another. (I mean that in a cause and effect sort of way, not morally). He's going to feel guilty and blame himself. That's Harry.
Susan didn't die because of Harry, the seeds of her death were planted way back in Storm Front, long before Harry. She liked to write about the supernatural, expose it, used Harry, though yeah came to love him, to gain fame and fortune in her career... She gave lip service to believing what she saw and experienced but she never paid it enough respect, so like a great many dangerous things it bit her in the ass... Even if she had never met Harry in my opinion Susan was destined to die by some supernatural means or another simply because brave as she was and smart as she was, she was always in over her head.
If she never got involved with Harry, she may very well never have had the chance to get involved enough with the supernatural to get killed. Or she could have learned about them slow enough to respect the danger. Harry gave her access.
If she hadn't had a child with Harry, she could have continued to fight the Red Court at arms length instead of a direct confrontation.
Susan is at fault for what happened to her in Grave Peril[/i]. She was stupid to ignore Harry saying it was dangerous. The woman who replaced Susan hasn't gotten into any serious trouble in part because Harry keeps her at arms length because of what happened with Susan.
he still feels guilt because that is Harry.
Susan is a tragic character due to her fate, but I think that her end definitely overshadows the choices she made that put her in that position in the eyes of some readers (as illustrated by the above posts). One of the biggest decisions (that I disagree with) was her choice of where Maggie should grow up. I can see her concerns about the safety around Harry, but she thought the better alternative was a family she personally knew within the Red's sphere of influence. She joined the Fellowship and was an active fighter against the Reds and a known associate of their greatest enemy. She knew that Maggie would be a target because of her parentage and didn't take any more precautions than putting her with friends.
Susan is a tragic character due to her fate, but I think that her end definitely overshadows the choices she made that put her in that position in the eyes of some readers (as illustrated by the above posts). One of the biggest decisions (that I disagree with) was her choice of where Maggie should grow up. I can see her concerns about the safety around Harry, but she thought the better alternative was a family she personally knew within the Red's sphere of influence. She joined the Fellowship and was an active fighter against the Reds and a known associate of their greatest enemy. She knew that Maggie would be a target because of her parentage and didn't take any more precautions than putting her with friends.
However I still stand by what I first said about her being doomed from the start.
hat's fair. I just think she was more 50/50 going to die of supernatural causes if Harry had kept her at arms length. Do you think Harry extended her life by several years by putting her in a position to have supernatural powers instead of dying horribly within a few years of Storm Front?
That's fair. I just think she was more 50/50 going to die of supernatural causes if Harry had kept her at arms length. Do you think Harry extended her life by several years by putting her in a position to have supernatural powers instead of dying horribly within a few years of Storm Front?
I've compared Susan going to the party like going somewhere after a Navy Seal tells you he isn't willing to go there because it's too dangerous despite not doing it pissing the Navy off at him. How stupid can you be?
Point being, I can definitely see y'all's side of things.
Much as I think Harry and you have a point that it would probably have been safer to keep her somewhere with Harry - Susan was probably primarily thinking about being as much a mother to Maggie as she could be, and that required a foster home in South America.
Susan is a tragic character due to her fate, but I think that her end definitely overshadows the choices she made that put her in that position in the eyes of some readers (as illustrated by the above posts). One of the biggest decisions (that I disagree with) was her choice of where Maggie should grow up. I can see her concerns about the safety around Harry, but she thought the better alternative was a family she personally knew within the Red's sphere of influence. She joined the Fellowship and was an active fighter against the Reds and a known associate of their greatest enemy. She knew that Maggie would be a target because of her parentage and didn't take any more precautions than putting her with friends.
Much as I think Harry and you have a point that it would probably have been safer to keep her somewhere with Harry - Susan was probably primarily thinking about being as much a mother to Maggie as she could be, and that required a foster home in South America.
Did anyone else consider the symmetry in Harry sacrificing Susan and Nico sacrificing Deirdre. Of course it is not the same, but it is not so different either.
Skin game spoiler(click to show/hide)
Not quite, apples to oranges, both fruit but very different... Harry didn't sacrifice Susan to as you put it, save the world.. He did it to save his daughter, he didn't sacrifice his daughter.. Also he didn't set up the curse that backfired on the Red King, the Red King did. There is also evidence that Nic lied to his daughter as far as the future of her spirit, did she fully understand that Hades wasn't going to let it off as far as punishment goes?I'm not sure I see it that way.
IF Nicodemus was truly saving the world with the sacrifice of Deirdre, rather than merely furthering a quest to power, I would say he has a claim to it simply being one of those hard calls. Harder than Harry's sacrifice of Susan, sure, but what is one daughter against all the children that will ever be?
The difference between your two examples is something called pre-planning. Nic planned all along to sacrifice his daughter to get into the vault.
This may be somewhat blurry. Harry may not have intended specifically to sacrifice Susan, but the whole "if the world burns because of what I do, then me and the kid will roast marshmallows" thing was pretty indicative that he was prepared to do something problematic.
It is also running at the mouth at what he'd be prepared to do, big difference between that and true pre-planning... Pre-planning means you are planning for what may happen on your mission.. Nic knew beforehand what was needed at the second gate, blood sacrifice, and coldly planned for it..
True. In my mind, the difference between what Nicodemus did and what Harry did is the difference between buying a gun, stalking someone to figure out the best time and place to kill them, and then following through; and buying a gun, deciding to bring it with you when you rob a house, and then shooting the homeowner when they come at you with their own weapon. The burglar may not have planned to murder anybody, but they accepted the possibility when they brought the gun with, and they'll still get charged with some degree of murder.
(Obviously, Harry had good intentions. But given we don't know what Nicodemus's long-term intentions are regarding the artifacts, I tend to consider it a nonissue when comparing the two.)
It is one thing to say, 'Let the word burn.' It is another to say, Let Molly burn." The difference is all in a name.
Huge difference, the end may be the same, but there is a difference..
Oh and please give page and book so things can be read in context..
One of the come backs that Uriel had to your quote... Ghost Story page 458
Sorry, can't. All my books are in storage. Also, I kinda figured that anyone who's on this forum would remember that quote--it's pretty memorable.
Thanks for finding more support for my claim! The fact that an archangel steps in to help convince Harry to regret his actions really demonstrates what I'm trying to say here.
The quote, yes, everyone remembers it but context is important... Without context it can be made to mean almost anything... Harry said it, is is memorable, but then did he coldly go on to plan the burning of the world? Obviously not, but then what stopped him?
However Harry didn't let the world burn. Did he?
The context was that Murphy was saying that the supernatural world was on a precipice, and Harry's actions might be what pushed it over.
In context, yes he did. Harry destabilized the supernatural world, allowing the fomor to move in causing what appears to be a massive loss of hope around the world (based on Ghost Story and what Butters says in Skin Game about the state of things).
Page please, book, please....
Did anyone tell him if he wipes out the Red Court the Fomor would move in before hand?
That was an unintentional consequence, not what he planned.. Harry did not have an agenda to destabilize the supernatural world..
He never pre-planned to reverse the bloodline spell, the spell was set up by the Red King in the first place. He is the one who didn't care or was so arrogant he didn't think it possible that Harry or anyone else could reverse it, and that he and all the RCVs could die as a consequence.
Sure, Harry could have just surrendered and let his daughter, himself, and his grandfather die..
I don't think there was a better way at all, but that doesn't change the fact that it was horrible.
Perhaps the natural balance between vamps and humans wouldn't have been destabilized, but then again what would have been the consequences if Eb's bloodline had been wiped out? A bloodline that includes a starborn..
Context please, what the author is saying, not you.. That is why if you are going to use quotes you need to sight chapter and verse that goes along with them, otherwise things can be twisted...
The difference isn't that Nic didn't care about what the plague would do, it is he planned to do, if it worked it would do what he intended for it to do, it was part of his agenda.. Getting the artifacts is on his agenda, killing his daughter is a step towards that...
Second-degree murder: any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned in advance.
Voluntary manslaughter: sometimes called a crime of passion murder, is any intentional killing that involves no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed". Both this and second-degree murder are committed on the spot under a spur-of-the-moment choice, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second-degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.
This makes no sense. It's Harry that didn't care about the consequences of his actions, not Nicodemus. The difference between Nicodemus and Harry is the difference between first degree murder and 2nd/3rd degree murder (I'll look up legal codes when I'm not in class).
IF Nicodemus was truly saving the world with the sacrifice of Deirdre, rather than merely furthering a quest to power, I would say he has a claim to it simply being one of those hard calls. Harder than Harry's sacrifice of Susan, sure, but what is one daughter against all the children that will ever be?
Planning is everything....
That what Death Masks is all about, Nic knew very well what he was going
to bring about, and he had goals...
Yes, and this is why context is very important,
forgive my poor spelling, but it doesn't change what I said...
One might have been said in the emotion of the moment.... Let the world burn, I am going to do what I need to do to save my daughter... However I do like the world and I do care for the people like Molly who live in it.. However I am upset..
Let the world burn because I really don't care about it and if little Maggie inherits ashes that's perfectly fine...
Let the world burn because I really hate it and want it to burn, saving my daughter is a good excuse....
Saying, "let the world burn," really murder? Now giving an old man the plague so he might infect a whole city or worse could be considered, committing... Is there a difference between saying and committing?
But later, we see the difference between "let the world burn" and "let Molly burn."Precisely!
He said that, and he did that, but that's because he was being an idiot without really thinking about what that would actually mean.
But later, we see the difference between "let the world burn" and "let Molly burn."
He said that, and he did that, but that's because he was being an idiot without really thinking about what that would actually mean.
Cut to the chase. Had Harry learned basic reproductive physiology there would have been no Maggie to have to rescue. This would be first cause. If Susan had to die it was this choice, made by the two of them, that set it up. Once there, given the setup, it would have been morally suspect if he hadn't killed Susan.
But later, we see the difference between "let the world burn" and "let Molly burn."
He said that, and he did that, but that's because he was being an idiot without really thinking about what that would actually mean.
Precisely, amen... Nor did he really act upon that...
What happened in the aftermath of C.I. wasn't because Harry really intended for the world to burn or failed to care if it did.. If anyone is to blame it is the Red King who set the whole thing up in the first place. He never thought through the idea that both Harry and Eb were first rate wizards and if anyone one could foil his plans for revenge, they could. Nor did he plan on the child's mother being there and willing to give up her life, which saved her child and wiped out the Red Court..
Also before this all went down there was no one warning Harry that if he succeeds in wiping out the Red Court some badder asses would step in to take up the slack..
Victim blaming much? The Red King is responsible for a lot of awful things, but I don't think we can legitimately say that he was 100% responsible for the genocide of his own species. I mean, Harry did have other options: both Susan and the Eebs pointed them out. He just objected to them.
I mean "Victim Blaming" seems like a questionable way to refer to someone having kidnapping a Girl and attempting to murder her entire family backfire on him.
And Harry's only other 'option' was to give up his daughter to the vampires and let them familicide him. What a great choice, I can't imagine why he didn't go for it.
They weren't two 16 year olds in back of the minivan. That seven minutes cost one family everything, and almost destroyed Molly. Not to mention all of the human sacrifices that took place to set up the ritual. And if memory serves me correctly Harry had to plan to make a restraint that could hold Susan(Death Masks). Something about unicorn hair. Original idea courtesy of Molly, I believe, who suggests using handcuffs. And Harry had nightmares that revolved around what might happen, thus the rope.
It's one thing for Susan and Harry to say, let's have a child, and then plan for that. It's an all together different thing to have a child by accident. In Harry and Susan's case, she is a half turned vampire involved in a guerilla war and Harry is a wizard who has been attacked multiple times at his home. It is so dangerous for the child, that Susan fosters her out. Before everything is said and done, the foster family is brutally murdered. And perhaps hundreds are killed at CI as the Reds prepare the curse.
The events of the book were generally foreseeable. Not the bloodline curse specifically, but that the Reds would use the child in some fashion if they became aware of her. Harry after the event hides her from the White Council for fear that they would use her as well. And Harry has hid the fact of the existence of his brother for the same reasons. Harry got careless about risks he was aware of and others had to pay. That doesn't make him evil, but he can't escape the responsibility.
It's one thing for Susan and Harry to say, let's have a child, and then plan for that. It's an all together different thing to have a child by accident. In Harry and Susan's case, she is a half turned vampire involved in a guerilla war and Harry is a wizard who has been attacked multiple times at his home. It is so dangerous for the child, that Susan fosters her out. Before everything is said and done, the foster family is brutally murdered. And perhaps hundreds are killed at CI as the Reds prepare the curse.
However having said that, let's not blame the victims hereIt kinda puts the lie to "With great power, comes great responsibility.", don't ya think?
Think about what you wrote. Both parties are warned about just this thing multiple times over the course of the story line. Practically speaking, trying to apportion blame to them separately is foolish.
It kinda puts the lie to "With great power, comes great responsibility.", don't ya think?
I think I can go so far as to say that if you are not ready to have kids, you should make sure you don't have any. So the parents are responsible for harm that comes to the kid and harm that comes from the kid. For example if Maggie had turned warlock. Also following your great power great responsibility argument.That's impossible to say, each individual has to make that decision. But if you make a conscious choice to have a child, you will at least be able to plan for the risks, as far as is possible.
But at any point in Harry's life from now and untill he is dead he will have dangerous enemies. Does that mean he should never have kids? Should Ebenezer (or any other combat active wizard) never have had any?
I am not apportioning culpability, I'm making a moral statement. Both Harry and Susan, by the precepts that Harry espouses, should have maintained a higher standard. In sports they would call Maggie an unforced error. Harry has powerful enemies and the very act of being around him puts you at hazard. He can't afford to be the guy that forgets to put on a raincoat because of a little vampire venom.Calling Maggie an unforced error seems to be a rather strong judgement by itself. You might (to stick with the sports analogies) also call her a lucky goal instead.
I am not apportioning culpability, I'm making a moral statement. Both Harry and Susan, by the precepts that Harry espouses, should have maintained a higher standard. In sports they would call Maggie an unforced error. Harry has powerful enemies and the very act of being around him puts you at hazard. He can't afford to be the guy that forgets to put on a raincoat because of a little vampire venom.That's impossible to say, each individual has to make that decision. But if you make a conscious choice to have a child, you will at least be able to plan for the risks, as far as is possible.
Calling Maggie an unforced error seems to be a rather strong judgement by itself. You might (to stick with the sports analogies) also call her a lucky goal instead.Unless you of course were the foster parents and their children.
Do not project rational or moral judgement onto this scene, it isn't fair.All right.
But in regards to Diedre/Susan symmetry. As I remember it Harry also lied by indicating she would be protected from the knife by her fairy armor, even though he she would not be. That does sound a bit like Nic saying the enemy cannot get you here.
That does sound a bit like Nic saying the enemy cannot get you here.For that, I chalk it up to Nic just being wrong. Harry bought what Nic said as well, before it was corrected for him, Deirdre most likely had much the same information Nic did, she was a true believer from everything we saw, and could very well have gone along with it even if she had known better. I figure he really did think that she wouldn't be punished for all the horrors that she committed.
For that, I chalk it up to Nic just being wrong. Harry bought what Nic said as well, before it was corrected for him, Deirdre most likely had much the same information Nic did, she was a true believer from everything we saw, and could very well have gone along with it even if she had known better. I figure he really did think that she wouldn't be punished for all the horrors that she committed.
For that, I chalk it up to Nic just being wrong. Harry bought what Nic said as well, before it was corrected for him, Deirdre most likely had much the same information Nic did, she was a true believer from everything we saw, and could very well have gone along with it even if she had known better. I figure he really did think that she wouldn't be punished for all the horrors that she committed.Yes, include the Fallen that inhabited the coin she held as well... To it she was no different that any other host to be used until he or she died. It apparently knew or counted on somehow turning up again to be picked up by another host...
But in regards to Diedre/Susan symmetry. As I remember it Harry also lied by indicating she would be protected from the knife by her fairy armor, even though he she would not be. That does sound a bit like Nic saying the enemy cannot get you here.
I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby’s father was? Who could have told them?Consider Nic's statement in it's context. Whatever she might suffer under Hades, had she died anywhere else her fate would would have left her in the hands of the White God for judgement. And that judgement would be irrevocable and final. On the other hand if Nic's plan would grant him the power to challenge Hades at some point he could have Deirdre back.
Her lips peeled away from her teeth.
His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.
“Martin,” Susan said, her voice low and very quiet. “Did you tell them about Maggie?”
He closed his eyes, but his voice was steady. “Yes.”
Susan Rodriguez lost her mind.
One instant she was a prisoner, and the next she had twisted like an eel, too swiftly to be easily seen. Martin’s machete opened up a long cut on her throat, but she paid as little attention to it as a thorn scratch gained while hiking.
Martin raised a hand to block the strike he thought was coming—and it was useless, because Susan didn’t go after him swinging.
Instead, her eyes full of darkness and rage, her mouth opened in a scream that showed her extended fangs, she went for his throat.
His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.
Consider Nic's statement in it's context. Whatever she might suffer under Hades, had she died anywhere else her fate would would have left her in the hands of the White God for judgement. And that judgement would be irrevocable and final. On the other hand if Nic's plan would grant him the power to challenge Hades at some point he could have Deirdre back.
Thank you for the quote and the context, but I don't think it is the same.. Harry sounded conflicted. Here is what I am wondering, was he sending mixed messages to Susan in that moment? Is he so disciplined mentally that he could mentally send a lie while at the same time believing something totally different? I think he sent that message with his doubts but it made no difference to Susan, she attacked anyway in her rage and she too wanted to save her daughter... Her own safety was the last thing she was worried about in that moment... Actually it was kind of dumb really for Harry to even suggest that her armor would protect her, both knew damn well what would happen if she attacked, what did happen, she turned...
You will be safe from the Enemy here.Followed somewhat later by a strange exchange. With Deirdre saying
"I love you, father." Nicodemus's rough voice cracked a little. "I know," he said, very gently. "And that is the problem."Note the capitalization of the word enemy in the first quotation. What is protecting Susan in an enchantment on her skin.
I grasped for the minor magic, fighting to pull it together through the dragging chains of the wills of the Lords of Outer Night, and cast my thought at Susan as clearly as I could. He doesn’t know all of it, I sent to her desperately. He doesn’t know about the enchantment protecting your skin. He only knows about the cloak because he saw you use it when we got here.
I grasped for the minor magic, fighting to pull it together through the dragging chains of the wills of the Lords of Outer Night, and cast my thought at Susan as clearly as I could. He doesn’t know all of it, I sent to her desperately. He doesn’t know about the enchantment protecting your skin. He only knows about the cloak because he saw you use it when we got here.
He took the knife from my belt, smiling, and moved toward the alter--my daughter.
His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.Italics indicate Harry thinking at Susan.
Corrected quote attribution.Italics indicate Harry thinking at Susan.
If I remember correctly, they could see each other and speak to each other, but I don't think there was any emotional transference (if someone could quote this bit, it would be great. I don't have my books with me).Here you go.
There was a shocked silence, and then Elaine's thought-voice said, more clearly, Harry?
And her lips moved, and the not-Elaine voice said, "What the hell?"
Elaine's eyes snapped to mine, suddenly meeting them, and the room around her clarified into crystalline relief.
She was in the bathroom of the hotel, in the tub, naked in the bath.
The air was thick with steam. She was bleeding from a broad cut across one wrist. The water was red. Her face was god-awful pale, but her eyes weren't fogged over and hazed out. Not yet.
Elaine! I thundered. You are under a psychic attack! Priscilla is the Skavis!
Elaine's eyes widened.
Someone slapped me hard on the face and screamed, "Harry!"
The world flew sideways and expanded in a rush of motion and sound as my denied senses came crashing back in upon me. The Beetle was sitting sideways across several parking spaces in the motel's little lot, both doors open, and Murphy, gun in one hand, had a hold of my duster with the other and was shaking me hard. "Harry! Get up!"
Come to think of it, since the Red King ripped the knife he was going to use on little Maggie from Harry's belt, why didn't he stab Harry while he was at it? Or was he also totally stupid on the subject of iron and the fae.
Here you go.
In terms of the quotes about Nicodemus, it's obvious to me that the White God is the Enemy. What that might mean for Deirdre is unknown. Is it better than what Hades might have in mind? Your guess is as good as mine.
"The part involving words like forever,eternity, and judgement."
I didn't know what would happen to Deirdre--but I knew she wasn't going to get off light.
Oh I think that is obvious to everyone who reads the books.
Deirdre is Nic's daugher, Susan was Harry lover, not the same at all... Technically she was no longer Susan when Harry killed her, otherwise the reverse spell wouldn't have worked.. Deirdre was still herself when Nic killed her.
People can think whatever they like, it doesn't make them right.
TWG is the Enemy. If we assume Lucifer and Nic have vaguely aligned goals (as shown by Lucifer aiding Nic in his attempt to grab the Archive) then Lucifer is, per Jim, doing something like playing a game of chess against TWG. You gotta play the game to win it. Nemesis wants to metaphorically toss the board and scatter the pieces. And thus, while Nic/Lucifer may oppose Nemesis, the enemy is TWG.
Unless Jim is playing mind games the capitalization of the word enemy is important. Make of that what you will.
People can think whatever they like, it doesn't make them right.
TWG is the Enemy. If we assume Lucifer and Nic have vaguely aligned goals (as shown by Lucifer aiding Nic in his attempt to grab the Archive) then Lucifer is, per Jim, doing something like playing a game of chess against TWG. You gotta play the game to win it. Nemesis wants to metaphorically toss the board and scatter the pieces. And thus, while Nic/Lucifer may oppose Nemesis, the enemy is TWG.
I had always assumed Nic was talking about TWG but I must say the idea it could have been Nemesis does make a lot of sense. Nic certainly seems more worried about the traitors in his own people then anything else so he could easily be more focused on Nemesis as the enemy at the moment. That idea also lines up better with his so often saying in the past that he and Dresden could be on the same side.
However I think there is little evidence of Nemesis infestation among the Fallen... Can a fallen angel even be infested? If it is the host, is Nemesis so strong it can over come the influence of the fallen who inhabits the coin? Now it could be that Satan and Nemesis are one in the same, but the the quarrels among the Denarians wouldn't make a whole lot of sense either.. I think the friction between the factions simply stems from the nature of the Fallen, why they were cast out of Heaven in the first place.. It is only natural they they'd fight among themselves for notice and for favor from their master..I thought one of the Fallen was involved in the attack on Mab's palace in Proven Guilty, presumably Thorned Namshiel?
I thought one of the Fallen was involved in the attack on Mab's palace in Proven Guilty, presumably Thorned Namshiel?
I thought one of the Fallen was involved in the attack on Mab's palace in Proven Guilty, presumably Thorned Namshiel?The attack on Arctis Tor was probably the work of the Circle or Black Council. Perhaps indirectly instigated by Nemesis. Answer the question, why attack at all, and you might be on your way to understanding. To this point in the book I have seen no support in the text for the idea that Nic knows of Nemesis. I could be wrong.
The attack on Arctis Tor was probably the work of the Circle or Black Council. Perhaps indirectly instigated by Nemesis. Answer the question, why attack at all, and you might be on your way to understanding. To this point in the book I have seen no support in the text for the idea that Nic knows of Nemesis. I could be wrong.
To this point in the book I have seen no support in the text for the idea that Nic knows of Nemesis. I could be wrong.
"Have you not seen the signs around you?" Nicodemus asked. "Beings acting against their natures? Creatures behaving in ways that they should not? The old conventions and customs being cast aside?"
I narrowed my eyes at him. "You're talking about the Black Council."
He tilted his head slightly to one side. Then his mouth twitched at a corner and he nodded his head very slightly. "They move in shadows, manipulate puppets. Some of them may be on your Council, yes. As good a name as any."
Hell Fire was mentioned, however that doesn't mean that if it was him that he is Nemesis infested. Remember the whole reason or rather excuse or cover for Skin Game was favors owed to Nic by Mab... Of course we know that both sides were paying a much deeper game..Not infected by Nemesis, merely recruited, would be just as possible I suppose. And would be just as much 'traitors' to Hell's cause.
Not infected by Nemesis, merely recruited, would be just as possible I suppose. And would be just as much 'traitors' to Hell's cause.
Skin game spoiler
Did anyone else consider the symmetry in Harry sacrificing Susan and Nico sacrificing Deirdre. Of course it is not the same, but it is not so different either. If Nico and Deirdre believe they are saving the world from something and the only way to do it is by getting the artifacts.
Yeah, he was afraid she'd eat him.. I agree they weren't sixteen, but do not underestimate the power of the vamp venom... Fear of being killed trumps responsible birth control I think, so rope over condom.. No excuses though I agree, but age had nothing to do with it, lots of "adults" turn up pregnant. I doubt that either one of them even thought of the possibility that she might get pregnant, it wasn't their first sexual encounter after all.. So either they were very lucky before she was half turned and went away, or at least one of them was being responsible..
People can think whatever they like, it doesn't make them right.
TWG is the Enemy. If we assume Lucifer and Nic have vaguely aligned goals (as shown by Lucifer aiding Nic in his attempt to grab the Archive) then Lucifer is, per Jim, doing something like playing a game of chess against TWG. You gotta play the game to win it. Nemesis wants to metaphorically toss the board and scatter the pieces. And thus, while Nic/Lucifer may oppose Nemesis, the enemy is TWG.
When does Harry reveal to Nicodemus that there is a traitor within the ranks of Denarians? I believe it is after the attempt on Ivy, right?