Author Topic: The Nature of the Creator  (Read 7294 times)

Offline Serack

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 7745
  • WoJ Rock Star!
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2019, 11:19:48 PM »
Hey Serack!  Great to see you back on here.  I think by definition TWG is on the Outside even if not an Outsider.  He's supposed to have created Creation, and therefore "outside" of it, and not born from it.

My personal theory is TWG, and the Outsiders/Old Ones are like Ying, and Yang.  Light, and Darkness, good, and evil, love and hate.

I'm not sure I believe in the theories about the Mothers, or Hades being Outsiders.  Because of their apparent dependence on human belief it just doesn't add up to me.

Hmmmm, apparently I didn't communicate my conclusions on the MW/Hades section well (some redditors expressed similar issues).  I'm not saying they are definitely Outsiders, but that they have Outsider nature.  By which I mean that if they aren't Rebel Outsiders that hitched up with C=ROL as co-conspirators, they are the primal aspects of creation that have a nature that isn't as far differentiated from C=ROL's Outsider origins. 

Other posters are wrapped up in the chaos nature of "outsiders."  For my post, Chaos is a Chronicles of Amber thing, and I don't need the DF to follow that cosmology so closely that C=ROL needs to have an origin from Chaos.  To me, Outside, and therefore the pre-creation existence is so far removed from the mortal experience, I don't think it's possible or even necessary to characterize it as "chaos" or otherwise other than "outside" or non-dimensional as Jim says. 
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2019, 03:31:21 AM »
Anything is possible.  But if there is an Outsider Court of some type you haven't shown that the White God was one of them or that they are the only faction in the domain outside creation

Offline raidem

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5634
  • Duck's Apprentice
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2019, 07:02:31 PM »
When I read the Amber series and tried to think how it would connect with the Dresden Files, I made the Dresden Files as an offshoot universe within the Amberverse somewhere.  Why?  Because Jim drew lots of inspiration from AmberMUSH.  And I like to have the Dresdenverse embedded in some way in this past inspiration.  That said, I'm sure Amberverse has past inspiration so it would be embedded in other past inspirations... I would also like for there to be Amber characters making an appearance in Dresden Files.


This all said, I formulated the idea that the nonvisited universe created by Corwin's act in Amberverse may parallel in some way the creation of the Dresdenverse.  That all said, probably not.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 07:11:39 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2019, 01:16:20 AM »
Great stuff Serack, certainly all very plausible. I can certainly see how Mother Winter and other destructive Powers might have Outsider origin, but as they are not "true" Outsiders they are still "for Reality". They are also able to fulfill their various duties as cleaners, wardens etc. Winter serves a special purpose in the DFU, and Summer exists to check and balance it.

I do think that a small spanner in the works is the Prince of Darkness. He isn't against Reality per se, according to WOJ, but he is against the idea of Free Will (or something to that effect). I do wonder about his purpose (either initially or currently). Interestingly, Lucifer is means "Lightbringer" normally interpreted to mean the knowledge-bearer (and if there is a theme in the Genesis, it is that knowledge is dangerous), but he is often referred to as The Prince of Darkness (named in DF) which is almost the complete opposite - these two ideas seemingly at odds. Perhaps he went beyond the borders of Reality and found knowledge that drove him to rebel against his Master and/or Creator? Perhaps he acquired some dark powers in the Outside? Did his nature change or did he fulfill his purpose? Or are they even the same being (we know one can be two...)?

The Dragons (like Ferrovax) also are hard to place. They are clearly high level cosmic beings, and had important jobs in the early days of creation (described as geological movements etc). So where do they fit in?

In my opinion, it was always obvious that TWG and the Outsiders/Old Ones were linked. By definition - TWG (as Creator) came before Creation, so must have come from "Outside" of it. That would imply some level of bond - even if distant - to the Outsiders. Garth Nix's Keys to the Kingdom series touches on this, with the Architect (creator) coming from "Nothing" (a similar concept to Chaos/Outside) and being a type (perhaps the first type) of Nithling (Nix's version of Outsiders). Nix never does go into why no other similarly powerful being then emerged after, however.

What will be interesting to see is whether any other Outsider Lords/Old Ones are of similar power to TWG, and why TWG chose to break away - even if it was just pure instinct. In a strange way, it reminds me of the Warhammer 40k Chaos God Malice/Malal, who represented Chaos' nature to turn against itself.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 01:27:13 AM by Yuillegan »

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2019, 06:11:43 AM »
From Uriel’s discussion with Harry in ghost story you get the idea that if you get too much knowledge there will be no free will left and Uriel always refuses to give any meaningful knowledge despite Harry’s objection that without knowledge you can not make a meaningful choice anyway.

WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24036
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2019, 03:35:10 PM »
From Uriel’s discussion with Harry in ghost story you get the idea that if you get too much knowledge there will be no free will left and Uriel always refuses to give any meaningful knowledge despite Harry’s objection that without knowledge you can not make a meaningful choice anyway.

  I don't think it is that clear cut.   Free will is a process of tiny forks in the long road of life, we are the sum total of all those little choices, if you know everything to begin with it removes the choices, thus free will.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2019, 08:34:25 PM »
My recollection may be mistaken, but what I recall is that Jim said something about how Satan was "for" creation's existence but had a philosophical disagreement about it with TWG that humans couldn't/wouldn't understand. I'm also sure I'm slightly mischaracterizing it.

Yeah, TWG either was an Outsider or created the Outsider's too. Jim has said that the Creator created the inside and told the Outsiders to stay out, and they did because he was the Creator. I can't remember what term he used for the Creator, but the implication is that the Creator is more powerful/as powerful as all the Outsider's put together.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2019, 07:28:14 AM »
My recollection may be mistaken, but what I recall is that Jim said something about how Satan was "for" creation's existence but had a philosophical disagreement about it with TWG that humans couldn't/wouldn't understand. I'm also sure I'm slightly mischaracterizing it.

Yeah, TWG either was an Outsider or created the Outsider's too. Jim has said that the Creator created the inside and told the Outsiders to stay out, and they did because he was the Creator. I can't remember what term he used for the Creator, but the implication is that the Creator is more powerful/as powerful as all the Outsider's put together.

Pretty much spot on, we as humans cannot grasp fully the complexities of the whole argument as we are too limited. But what he is against was humanities Free Will.

Yes I agree, the implication is that He is stronger. Though I wonder if that is because He can create a Cosmos, or because inside his Creation he is the Boss. The whole weird thing with Outsiders is they look different depending on which reality they are trying to enter - which I think is a bit of hint to the whole thing.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2019, 05:26:56 PM »
The whole weird thing with Outsiders is they look different depending on which reality they are trying to enter - which I think is a bit of hint to the whole thing.

I haven't heard this. Where'd that come from, if you can remember? I imagine it was from Jim himself. If anyone has a link, it would be appreciated.

The Creator could be stronger in the same sense that a person with many children is stronger. He is stronger because he has Creation is backing him up, but I do think that it has more to do with being the Creator (either because he can create or because he has a home field advantage because he created).

Offline raidem

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5634
  • Duck's Apprentice
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2019, 07:58:36 PM »
Quote
The whole weird thing with Outsiders is they look different depending on which reality they are trying to enter - which I think is a bit of hint to the whole thing.
I think I remember this too.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Salusen

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • Be afraid. Be very afraid.
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2019, 08:09:11 PM »
My recollection may be mistaken, but what I recall is that Jim said something about how Satan was "for" creation's existence but had a philosophical disagreement about it with TWG that humans couldn't/wouldn't understand. I'm also sure I'm slightly mischaracterizing it.

Yeah, TWG either was an Outsider or created the Outsider's too. Jim has said that the Creator created the inside and told the Outsiders to stay out, and they did because he was the Creator. I can't remember what term he used for the Creator, but the implication is that the Creator is more powerful/as powerful as all the Outsider's put together.

I totes agree with the Creator being stronger than the Outsiders. Although it is interesting to note that He may have quite well been an Outsider himself. As He is spirit and can possibly appear in any form He chooses. Like how Outsiders can appear in the form that matches the reality they're trying to enter.
-- Salusen

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2019, 03:25:42 AM »
Quote
2015 San Francisco signing (Coopersfield Books)
I’m pretty sure the outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy.

http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-other-bad-guys-beyond-the-outer-gates-demonreach/

There you go Bad Alias.


Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: The Nature of the Creator
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2019, 04:13:25 PM »
Thanks.