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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Serack on January 19, 2019, 11:30:18 AM
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Hi all, long time no see. I've had a theory brewing in the back of my mind for so long that I'm not sure if it's seeds go back to when I first wrote my GUCMT theory (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,41981.0.html), when Mother Winter seemed so resentful of Reality, when I read the scene with Hade's crown of Mordite, or later when I heard a WoJ from the 2014 DragonCon, but some recent topics on the DF reddit sub about TWG reminded me of it, and when I reviewed my GUCMT, I didn't see anything hinting at it, so I decided I have to write it out.
First, the WoJ, which my WoJ website (http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/home/) has a link to the time stamp in the youtube video, but I didn't transcribe until I decided to write this out.
The Theory up front: The Creator of the DF Universe was originally a rebel Outsider Lord. (C=ROL)
Derivative theory: Some version of TWG (The White God) is the Creator, and thus was a ROL, and either he immediately created subordinates to populate/help create creation, or he brought subordinate outsiders along as fellow rebel outsiders to help.
First a WoJ that establishes some critical DF cosmological canon:
As far as the extra dimensional stuff goes, there’s /tons/ of extra dimensional stuff. It just happens that some of them are a bit more extra dimensional. Or in this case /non/ dimensional.
The established canon of the Dresden Files is that the Universe has been created, and there are things that come from Outside of Creation and don’t like Creation and want it gone because it’s so disruptive, and sucks. You know, from their point of view.
So it's a small step from the above WoJ about the DF "canon" that if the DF Universe was "created" there was a "Creator" or "Creators."
Next to get to C=ROL, it is reasonable to think that if there are beings Outside the dimensions of/non dimensional to Creation, they exist outside of Time (which is probably a big part of why they would find creation disruptive, I mean what a horrible idea bounding things with this new time thing?). So if Outsiders are non dimensional to time, and apparently want things back to before there was a time, it's reasonable that it was one of /them/ that is responsible for Creating it in the first place.
As for considering the Creator a "Lord" of Outside, well first, we know there is a hierarchy among the outsiders from White Night chapter 41 when Lash helped Harry overcome the Outsider psychic whammy in the Deeps, we get:
"He who walks Behind is an outsider Harry. A terrible creature, the most potent of the Walkers, a powerful knight among their ruling entities."
As for my derivative theory, we have the below WoJ about how Harry was able to enter Michael's house at the end of GS to see Maggie and Mouse:
The presence of an Archangel, essentially an executive VP of Creation, probably had something to do with it.
Now for some circumstantial evidence for these theories beyond the above WoJ and logic:
Chronicles of Amber Parallels
In my old GUCMT theory I went through the effort to show some connections between Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber, and the DF, and drew some parallels between my cosmology theories and the underlying principles of that series. In this derivative theory, the parallels are more blatant, so I'll write a more detailed summary of those principles, and how they compare to the above WoJ about the DF canon.
In the Chronicles of Amber, there are many "mirror" worlds not unlike the Dresden Files "other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility" Jim has discussed a few times in WoJ I quoted in my GUCMT. The thing is before these "mirror" worlds existed, there was only "Chaos" until a "Lord of Chaos" rebelled, and created a polar opposite of Chaos known as "Amber" (which was, as the name implies, stuck in a perty stasis). The very act of creating Amber and having some progeny resulted in a continuum of "mirror" worlds that stretched from Amber all the way to Chaos. And just as Jim describes about the DF canon, the remaining Lords and denizens of Chaos found this disruptive and wanted to destroy Amber and, thus the derivative continuum of mirror worlds.
Some really powerful DF beings have hints of Outsider tendencies
Except maybe Ferrovax, the three most powerful beings we have seen on screen are Uriel, Mother Winter (And Summer), and Hades. Of those, I say Mother Winter, and Hades are either former Outsiders who still have a level of affinity for the Outside vs being totally cool with our Creation.
For Mother Winter, this thought became clear to me during Cold Days when I read the lines:
Calculation and thought flickered through those green eyes, faster than I could follow. "Ah, yes. I see," Mother Summer said. "So many new futures unwinding."
"Too many bright ones," Mother Winter said sullenly.
"Even you must think better that than empty night."
[/snip]
'Time, time!" Winter breathed. "He is not your weapon."
"It is not your world."
This passage made me think that Mother Winter is /not/ fond of creation, or any fondness her power has is manifested through "Mother Summer" (MS) (which is how I interpreted MS's line that MW "cares in her own way." MS is the attribute of MW that cares, which is why I grouped the 2 entities as one above). This lack fondness smacked of outsider nature to me, although that's conjecture.
For Hades, when I read the Skin Game passage that his Crown is Mordite, my beta comment was "Oh... My... God..." This is because to me this implies that he can be blithe about mordite because he /is/ of outsider origins, or he his heritage is close enough to allow him to be.
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Why would Mother Winter be fond of creation? Her job is to clear away, and out of the ashes for
lack of a better word, Mother Summer creates.
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So are you implying that Hades and MW are part of the original rebels who then rebelled against TWG, or that they are Outsiders who came here and dug the place and decided to set up shop?
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It does remind me that the Greek cosmology I got taught in school started off 'in the beginning was Chaos'.
That said, Greek mythology doesn't make Hades a particularly Chaos-aligned person, and remember that Ivy/the Archive brought Mordite into Harry's duel. If Ivy can somewhat blithely walk around with a bit of Mordite, maybe Hades is powerful enough to not worry about a whole crown (and uses it for his image).
If C=ROL I'd say Mother Winter makes a possible lieutenant, as does say Satan and who knows, Kringle/Odin, but Hades doesn't strike me as obvious. Though of course if the Creator had more lieutenants, Hades could join the list after this top tier.
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It does remind me that the Greek cosmology I got taught in school started off 'in the beginning was Chaos'.
Most creation stories I'm the least bit familiar with begin with chaos or chaos imagery (as interpreted by Carl Jung). Water is often interpreted to represent chaos. I've seen that interpretation as far back as the 6th century B.C., and I've never been into that whole literary interpretation scene. That would make the Genesis creation story one of "out of chaos, order." There's also one I remember from elementary school, so I could be remembering it completely wrong, from a Native American tribe about a turtle's back being the first piece of land when all the earth was water.
Here's a piece from Jung's wikipedia page:Archetype – a concept "borrowed" from anthropology to denote supposedly universal and recurring mental images or themes. Jung's definitions of archetypes varied over time and have been the subject of debate as to their usefulness.
Archetypal images – universal symbols that can mediate opposites in the psyche, often found in religious art, mythology and fairy tales across cultures
So, if we believe Jung, there are certain images and ideas that are universally human. Therefore it wouldn't surprise me if Jim ended up with a lot of the same things. In fact, it would surprise me if he didn't. (That is, if I was one to recognize all that stuff. When reading, I prefer not to bother with analysis beyond "what does this mean for the story"). I mean, he would almost have to in building a world that allows a place for all those stories from so many varied cultures, and, what with him being a human and being subject to the same universal human psychology.
Getting back to the whole chaos point, while the Outsiders do have a great deal of order (they all act as one), they also have a lot of chaotic elements. They are associated with water. Chuthulu and other tentacled horrors associated with the Outsiders arising from the oceans. Most of the Outsiders we've seen on the Inside have actually been in the water (attacking Demonreach). They lack symmetry. Nemesis allows, perhaps compels, things to act against their nature.
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Most creation stories I'm the least bit familiar with begin with chaos or chaos imagery (as interpreted by Carl Jung). Water is often interpreted to represent chaos. I've seen that interpretation as far back as the 6th century B.C., and I've never been into that whole literary interpretation scene. That would make the Genesis creation story one of "out of chaos, order."
Out of chaos, order isn't all that far from the current scientific explanation, commonly known as" the big bang theory... "
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Derivative theory: Some version of TWG (The White God) is the Creator, and thus was a ROL, and either he immediately created subordinates to populate/help create creation, or he brought subordinate outsiders along as fellow rebel outsiders to help.
I'm good with TWG being the Creator but don't immediately see why TWG would be a ROL.
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Most creation stories I'm the least bit familiar with begin with chaos or chaos imagery (as interpreted by Carl Jung). Water is often interpreted to represent chaos. I've seen that interpretation as far back as the 6th century B.C., and I've never been into that whole literary interpretation scene. That would make the Genesis creation story one of "out of chaos, order." There's also one I remember from elementary school, so I could be remembering it completely wrong, from a Native American tribe about a turtle's back being the first piece of land when all the earth was water.
Here's a piece from Jung's wikipedia page:
So, if we believe Jung, there are certain images and ideas that are universally human. Therefore it wouldn't surprise me if Jim ended up with a lot of the same things. In fact, it would surprise me if he didn't. (That is, if I was one to recognize all that stuff. When reading, I prefer not to bother with analysis beyond "what does this mean for the story"). I mean, he would almost have to in building a world that allows a place for all those stories from so many varied cultures, and, what with him being a human and being subject to the same universal human psychology.
Getting back to the whole chaos point, while the Outsiders do have a great deal of order (they all act as one), they also have a lot of chaotic elements. They are associated with water. Chuthulu and other tentacled horrors associated with the Outsiders arising from the oceans. Most of the Outsiders we've seen on the Inside have actually been in the water (attacking Demonreach). They lack symmetry. Nemesis allows, perhaps compels, things to act against their nature.
Eh, I'd say the Bible is much less like that. It posits 'in the beginning God (or the Lord of the Gods) created the heavens and earth' not 'in the beginning was water/chaos'. Mind I might be overly literal here, but the Judaic version starts with the Creator clearly pre-existing (because He could do things, like creating or being Lord) while the Greek starts with just Chaos. As a result the Genesis version to me describes whoever created as a distinct being, possibly from Chaos but not necessarily.
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Eh, I'd say the Bible is much less like that. It posits 'in the beginning God (or the Lord of the Gods) created the heavens and earth' not 'in the beginning was water/chaos'. Mind I might be overly literal here, but the Judaic version starts with the Creator clearly pre-existing (because He could do things, like creating or being Lord) while the Greek starts with just Chaos. As a result the Genesis version to me describes whoever created as a distinct being, possibly from Chaos but not necessarily.
I like to go back further, like how did He,She, or It come into being to create all this stuff to begin with?
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This is a WAG on my part that I don't have much, or any, real support for, but I think the DF universe's creator is this guy named Jim that lives in Missouri.
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Eh, I'd say the Bible is much less like that. It posits 'in the beginning God (or the Lord of the Gods) created the heavens and earth' not 'in the beginning was water/chaos'. Mind I might be overly literal here, but the Judaic version starts with the Creator clearly pre-existing (because He could do things, like creating or being Lord) while the Greek starts with just Chaos. As a result the Genesis version to me describes whoever created as a distinct being, possibly from Chaos but not necessarily.
There are scattered references to an older creation myth in the Bible. A quick google search:
https://contradictionsinthebible.com/yahweh-slays-the-primaeval-sea-monster-leviathan/
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There are scattered references to an older creation myth in the Bible. A quick google search:
https://contradictionsinthebible.com/yahweh-slays-the-primaeval-sea-monster-leviathan/
The myths do overlap, not just for creation but for the flood as well.. There is evidence that there was a huge flood at the end of the Ice Age and populations along what eventually became the Mediterranean Sea were wiped out, this was the basis for Noah and before it Babylonian myths.
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Eh, I'd say the Bible is much less like that. It posits 'in the beginning God (or the Lord of the Gods) created the heavens and earth' not 'in the beginning was water/chaos'. Mind I might be overly literal here, but the Judaic version starts with the Creator clearly pre-existing (because He could do things, like creating or being Lord) while the Greek starts with just Chaos. As a result the Genesis version to me describes whoever created as a distinct being, possibly from Chaos but not necessarily.
Here is a quote from Genesis 1 NKJV (because it was the first google result):1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
I'm not disagreeing with you. The Christian creation story is very different. There is one God who pre-exists everything and not Chaos then a succession of gods. But, Genesis 1:2 is all about chaos with a formless void earth and the reference to waters, which is often seen as an image of chaos. The Greek Chaos "refers to the void state preceding the creation of the universe or cosmos in the Greek creation myths, or to the initial 'gap' created by the original separation of heaven and earth." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)). The Chaos concept tracks pretty closely with the first two lines of Genesis.
Here are some on point quotes from that article with subheadings in parenthesis:
(Etymology)
Pherecydes of Syros (fl. 6th century BC) interprets chaos as water, like something formless which can be differentiated. ...
(Biblical Tradition)
Chaos has been linked with the term abyss/tohu wa-bohu of Genesis 1:2. The term may refer to a state of non-being prior to creation or to a formless state. In the Book of Genesis, the spirit of God is moving upon the face of the waters, displacing the earlier state of the universe which is likened to a "watery chaos" upon which there is choshek (which translated from the Hebrew is darkness/confusion). ...
(Alchemy and Hermeticism)
Because of association with the Genesis creation narrative, where "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Gen. 1:2), Chaos was further identified with the classical element of Water. ...
(Modern usage)
The term chaos has been adopted in modern comparative mythology and religious studies as referring to the primordial state before creation, strictly combining two separate notions of primordial waters or a primordial darkness from which a new order emerges and a primordial state as a merging of opposites, such as heaven and earth, which must be separated by a creator deity in an act of cosmogony.
The whole "Alchemy and Hermeticism" subheading is pretty relevant and also interesting in the context of the Dresden Files considering Jim has said that real world beliefs in how magic worked informed how he developed magic in the Dresden Files.
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Hey Serack! Great to see you back on here. I think by definition TWG is on the Outside even if not an Outsider. He's supposed to have created Creation, and therefore "outside" of it, and not born from it.
My personal theory is TWG, and the Outsiders/Old Ones are like Ying, and Yang. Light, and Darkness, good, and evil, love and hate.
I'm not sure I believe in the theories about the Mothers, or Hades being Outsiders. Because of their apparent dependence on human belief it just doesn't add up to me.
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My personal theory is TWG, and the Outsiders/Old Ones are like Ying, and Yang. Light, and Darkness, good, and evil, love and hate.
I agree, there has to be balance, the problem is when it gets out of wack and that is what under threat at this moment.
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Hey Serack! Great to see you back on here. I think by definition TWG is on the Outside even if not an Outsider. He's supposed to have created Creation, and therefore "outside" of it, and not born from it.
My personal theory is TWG, and the Outsiders/Old Ones are like Ying, and Yang. Light, and Darkness, good, and evil, love and hate.
I'm not sure I believe in the theories about the Mothers, or Hades being Outsiders. Because of their apparent dependence on human belief it just doesn't add up to me.
Hmmmm, apparently I didn't communicate my conclusions on the MW/Hades section well (some redditors expressed similar issues). I'm not saying they are definitely Outsiders, but that they have Outsider nature. By which I mean that if they aren't Rebel Outsiders that hitched up with C=ROL as co-conspirators, they are the primal aspects of creation that have a nature that isn't as far differentiated from C=ROL's Outsider origins.
Other posters are wrapped up in the chaos nature of "outsiders." For my post, Chaos is a Chronicles of Amber thing, and I don't need the DF to follow that cosmology so closely that C=ROL needs to have an origin from Chaos. To me, Outside, and therefore the pre-creation existence is so far removed from the mortal experience, I don't think it's possible or even necessary to characterize it as "chaos" or otherwise other than "outside" or non-dimensional as Jim says.
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Anything is possible. But if there is an Outsider Court of some type you haven't shown that the White God was one of them or that they are the only faction in the domain outside creation
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When I read the Amber series and tried to think how it would connect with the Dresden Files, I made the Dresden Files as an offshoot universe within the Amberverse somewhere. Why? Because Jim drew lots of inspiration from AmberMUSH. And I like to have the Dresdenverse embedded in some way in this past inspiration. That said, I'm sure Amberverse has past inspiration so it would be embedded in other past inspirations... I would also like for there to be Amber characters making an appearance in Dresden Files.
This all said, I formulated the idea that the nonvisited universe created by Corwin's act in Amberverse may parallel in some way the creation of the Dresdenverse. That all said, probably not.
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Great stuff Serack, certainly all very plausible. I can certainly see how Mother Winter and other destructive Powers might have Outsider origin, but as they are not "true" Outsiders they are still "for Reality". They are also able to fulfill their various duties as cleaners, wardens etc. Winter serves a special purpose in the DFU, and Summer exists to check and balance it.
I do think that a small spanner in the works is the Prince of Darkness. He isn't against Reality per se, according to WOJ, but he is against the idea of Free Will (or something to that effect). I do wonder about his purpose (either initially or currently). Interestingly, Lucifer is means "Lightbringer" normally interpreted to mean the knowledge-bearer (and if there is a theme in the Genesis, it is that knowledge is dangerous), but he is often referred to as The Prince of Darkness (named in DF) which is almost the complete opposite - these two ideas seemingly at odds. Perhaps he went beyond the borders of Reality and found knowledge that drove him to rebel against his Master and/or Creator? Perhaps he acquired some dark powers in the Outside? Did his nature change or did he fulfill his purpose? Or are they even the same being (we know one can be two...)?
The Dragons (like Ferrovax) also are hard to place. They are clearly high level cosmic beings, and had important jobs in the early days of creation (described as geological movements etc). So where do they fit in?
In my opinion, it was always obvious that TWG and the Outsiders/Old Ones were linked. By definition - TWG (as Creator) came before Creation, so must have come from "Outside" of it. That would imply some level of bond - even if distant - to the Outsiders. Garth Nix's Keys to the Kingdom series touches on this, with the Architect (creator) coming from "Nothing" (a similar concept to Chaos/Outside) and being a type (perhaps the first type) of Nithling (Nix's version of Outsiders). Nix never does go into why no other similarly powerful being then emerged after, however.
What will be interesting to see is whether any other Outsider Lords/Old Ones are of similar power to TWG, and why TWG chose to break away - even if it was just pure instinct. In a strange way, it reminds me of the Warhammer 40k Chaos God Malice/Malal, who represented Chaos' nature to turn against itself.
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From Uriel’s discussion with Harry in ghost story you get the idea that if you get too much knowledge there will be no free will left and Uriel always refuses to give any meaningful knowledge despite Harry’s objection that without knowledge you can not make a meaningful choice anyway.
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From Uriel’s discussion with Harry in ghost story you get the idea that if you get too much knowledge there will be no free will left and Uriel always refuses to give any meaningful knowledge despite Harry’s objection that without knowledge you can not make a meaningful choice anyway.
I don't think it is that clear cut. Free will is a process of tiny forks in the long road of life, we are the sum total of all those little choices, if you know everything to begin with it removes the choices, thus free will.
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My recollection may be mistaken, but what I recall is that Jim said something about how Satan was "for" creation's existence but had a philosophical disagreement about it with TWG that humans couldn't/wouldn't understand. I'm also sure I'm slightly mischaracterizing it.
Yeah, TWG either was an Outsider or created the Outsider's too. Jim has said that the Creator created the inside and told the Outsiders to stay out, and they did because he was the Creator. I can't remember what term he used for the Creator, but the implication is that the Creator is more powerful/as powerful as all the Outsider's put together.
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My recollection may be mistaken, but what I recall is that Jim said something about how Satan was "for" creation's existence but had a philosophical disagreement about it with TWG that humans couldn't/wouldn't understand. I'm also sure I'm slightly mischaracterizing it.
Yeah, TWG either was an Outsider or created the Outsider's too. Jim has said that the Creator created the inside and told the Outsiders to stay out, and they did because he was the Creator. I can't remember what term he used for the Creator, but the implication is that the Creator is more powerful/as powerful as all the Outsider's put together.
Pretty much spot on, we as humans cannot grasp fully the complexities of the whole argument as we are too limited. But what he is against was humanities Free Will.
Yes I agree, the implication is that He is stronger. Though I wonder if that is because He can create a Cosmos, or because inside his Creation he is the Boss. The whole weird thing with Outsiders is they look different depending on which reality they are trying to enter - which I think is a bit of hint to the whole thing.
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The whole weird thing with Outsiders is they look different depending on which reality they are trying to enter - which I think is a bit of hint to the whole thing.
I haven't heard this. Where'd that come from, if you can remember? I imagine it was from Jim himself. If anyone has a link, it would be appreciated.
The Creator could be stronger in the same sense that a person with many children is stronger. He is stronger because he has Creation is backing him up, but I do think that it has more to do with being the Creator (either because he can create or because he has a home field advantage because he created).
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The whole weird thing with Outsiders is they look different depending on which reality they are trying to enter - which I think is a bit of hint to the whole thing.
I think I remember this too.
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My recollection may be mistaken, but what I recall is that Jim said something about how Satan was "for" creation's existence but had a philosophical disagreement about it with TWG that humans couldn't/wouldn't understand. I'm also sure I'm slightly mischaracterizing it.
Yeah, TWG either was an Outsider or created the Outsider's too. Jim has said that the Creator created the inside and told the Outsiders to stay out, and they did because he was the Creator. I can't remember what term he used for the Creator, but the implication is that the Creator is more powerful/as powerful as all the Outsider's put together.
I totes agree with the Creator being stronger than the Outsiders. Although it is interesting to note that He may have quite well been an Outsider himself. As He is spirit and can possibly appear in any form He chooses. Like how Outsiders can appear in the form that matches the reality they're trying to enter.
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2015 San Francisco signing (Coopersfield Books)
I’m pretty sure the outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy.
http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-other-bad-guys-beyond-the-outer-gates-demonreach/
There you go Bad Alias.
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Thanks.