Author Topic: Harry's lack of research  (Read 9719 times)

Online Mira

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2018, 12:55:45 PM »
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As for knowing his mother, why should he be any different than anyone else.  You know your mother because she was there as you were raised.   And at that you know your mother, not the person she was.  If she had died before you were born, she would be a collection of photographs and stories told to you by the people who knew her.  And look at who Harry's mother ran with.  A bunch are dead, or inhuman.  The ability to research implies a record to examine.  In a lot of ways Margaret was an International Women Of Mystery. 

   Knowledge was also deliberately kept from him.   His mother died when he was born, his father, when he was six, instead of stepping forward and claiming him, his maternal grandfather let him be
dumped in an orphanage for the next four years with no clue of anything except vague memories of his loving father in the old station wagon they traveled the country in.  When he was adopted by Justin he had no reason to believe he had any living family.  What little he knew of his mother is what he was told by his adoptive father, whom he loved and trusted until he was sixteen.  Then the
crap hit the fan, his fae god mother didn't or couldn't tell him the truth... When he was saved at the
trial by Eb, he basically learned nothing about his mother other than she was a killer rebel who
was under sentence of death.   Eb then took him in for the next three years, never even hinting that he was really his grandfather... Later in Blood Rite when a wounded Harry confronts him about a lot of things, Eb still couldn't or wouldn't tell him the whole truth about who he was or his mother..  Harry was shocked and pissed about what had been kept from him, but really had no basis to probe further.. He  finds out from Thomas that they are half brothers in the same book... He sees and talks with his mother in a soul gaze but beyond confirming that he and Thomas are indeed brothers she gives him very little information save she was sorry about the future she set him up for...  Thomas is no real help either, because he was also a small child when she ran away..  He gets bits and pieces, hints about his mother, but they are fleeting like what Chancy told him.. But the price of getting the full story from him is was way too dear...  Lash promised to tell him everything she knows, but then she was killed..  But you have to ask, why didn't she volunteer this information sooner to him?   Finally in Cold Days Rashid finally sees fit to tell Harry that he was good friends with his mother, that they had dinner together and swapped information about the ways, but it wasn't the time to probe futher...  There is a hint of a conspiracy, one to keep Harry as safe as possible, the other to keep information from him as long as possible until needed...  One having a lot to do with the other..  Research into what happened to his mother?  It isn't like Harry hasn't been a very busy man the last thirty or so years..  He cannot simply "google" what he wants to know and when he wants it..  Those who do have information kept that they ever knew his mother at all from him until it oozes out, but then they keep most of what they know from him...  He really hasn't had the luxury of time to  obsess about it..   
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 01:00:46 PM by Mira »

Offline toodeep

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2018, 04:56:54 PM »
It is true that in many cases, asking people for answers would have a cost - obviously with the fae, etc., but also with asking other wizards about some things, like soulfire.  I don't think he wants to advertise he has it, which asking other people about it would be tantamount to doing.

But, there have been sources that could be plumbed more easily. 
1.  Follow up with Goodman Gray about what he knows about his mother
2.  Follow up with the gatekeeper about half a million things, including his mother; but most certainly about being starborn since that appears to be right in his expertise
3.  Follow up with his brother about getting access to information from Papa Raiths forbidden library.  We know he had stuff about outsiders and we know he was in cahoots with Harry's mom about something but he has done nothing to find out more about that despite having an ally in the court and possible access to a mindbent papa Raith.
4.  Two words - The Archive.  Sooooo much he can ask her about.  There are some things she can't answer, but I would assume she would be very useful at deep background or even just pointing him to where he should look, even if she can't answer the really important questions because of her restrictions.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2018, 05:06:01 PM »
It is true that in many cases, asking people for answers would have a cost - obviously with the fae, etc., but also with asking other wizards about some things, like soulfire.  I don't think he wants to advertise he has it, which asking other people about it would be tantamount to doing.

But, there have been sources that could be plumbed more easily. 
1.  Follow up with Goodman Gray about what he knows about his mother
Doable -- but probably has a price. Then again, Gray's prices so far have been straightforward and manageable.
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2.  Follow up with the gatekeeper about half a million things, including his mother; but most certainly about being starborn since that appears to be right in his expertise
He might be willing to tell Harry what he needs to know, but not necessarily what he wants to know.
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3.  Follow up with his brother about getting access to information from Papa Raiths forbidden library.  We know he had stuff about outsiders and we know he was in cahoots with Harry's mom about something but he has done nothing to find out more about that despite having an ally in the court and possible access to a mindbent papa Raith.
It's not Thomas he'd have to go through for that. It's Lara. Going to her for information is damn near on par for danger with going to Lea for it.
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4.  Two words - The Archive.  Sooooo much he can ask her about.  There are some things she can't answer, but I would assume she would be very useful at deep background or even just pointing him to where he should look, even if she can't answer the really important questions because of her restrictions.
This is a non-starter. The Archive can't just give out information -- it was pulling teeth to get her to give a single hint in Changes, which was only possible because of the intensely personal nature of the request and how Harry put it to her. That tiny piece of information that Harry got for a much more important reason than mere curiosity is implied to have been huge for her to give out.
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Offline dspringer1

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2018, 12:18:46 AM »
Here is a thought about all those magical questions:  Starborn, Soulfire, Specific Outsiders, Black Council, Nature of Mantels/Queens,

His new spirit of Intellect - Bonnie I think - has a very large set of information copied from a fallen angel.   Information that clearly pre-dates creation itself.  And she is likely to be perfectly willing to answer. 

Unless of course some of those rules that limit immortals or angels also apply to this new spirit of intellect -- or if those rules simply kept that information from the spirit in the first place.   After all, Lash's spirit was in Harry's brain.  On some level that might mean accessible to a mortal.   I suspect there are rules limiting that. 

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2018, 12:24:23 AM »
It's not Thomas he'd have to go through for that. It's Lara. Going to her for information is damn near on par for danger with going to Lea for it.This is a non-starter.

Thomas is in pretty good standing with the Court now - I don't see why the library would be off limits to him in his own right. And if he's bringing Bob for a ridealong in his head at the time, how's Lara going to be any the wiser?

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2018, 01:30:07 AM »
Here is a thought about all those magical questions:  Starborn, Soulfire, Specific Outsiders, Black Council, Nature of Mantels/Queens,

His new spirit of Intellect - Bonnie I think - has a very large set of information copied from a fallen angel.   Information that clearly pre-dates creation itself.  And she is likely to be perfectly willing to answer. 

Unless of course some of those rules that limit immortals or angels also apply to this new spirit of intellect -- or if those rules simply kept that information from the spirit in the first place.   After all, Lash's spirit was in Harry's brain.  On some level that might mean accessible to a mortal.   I suspect there are rules limiting that.
It will be interesting to see how it's played in the books.  It's an open question on what Uriel might allow Bonea speak about, or what Harry could understand if she did.

Lara loves Thomas, but that doesn't mean she trusts him.  She bugs his communications.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2018, 04:45:52 AM »
The problem with Bonea is that she has no understanding of the knowledge she has. She probably won't realize what's important, related, or relevant most of the time.

Like most children, getting her to help out on various things will be more about teaching her than getting any actual help from her.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2018, 08:23:37 AM »
The problem with Bonea is that she has no understanding of the knowledge she has. She probably won't realize what's important, related, or relevant most of the time.

Like most children, getting her to help out on various things will be more about teaching her than getting any actual help from her.
The best way of getting information out of Bonea is actually teaching her.
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Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2018, 09:29:05 AM »
Nearly everyone who has told Harry anything about either the Starborn business in general or his mother specifically has either been:

A. Evil and trying to turn him to their side;
B. Evil and trying to kill him; or
C. One of the above and now dead.

Suffice to say, Harry doesn't have a lot of resources he can go to for information about either of those -- not without incurring a huge cost for that knowledge, anyway.

I also agree that he's probably in a lot of denial, about his mother specifically -- like any child, he wants to believe his mother was Good and Right (hence him defending her when Luccio speaks of her) and, as above, three of the people who've said the most about to him about his mother are a literal demon from Hell, the man who murdered her, and the man who started the Black Plague as a second honeymoon. Of the rest, two of them have stated that the White Council had a kill order out on her as a Warlock.

The only person who seemed just simply friendly with her and was not evil was the Gatekeeper, and getting information out of him is ... tricky.

So yeah -- Harry has every reason to fear that any further information he gets about his mother will paint her badly, so he's probably reluctant to seek it out.

Good post with very solid points, but you're missing something.  (Read below)

   Knowledge was also deliberately kept from him.   His mother died when he was born, his father, when he was six, instead of stepping forward and claiming him, his maternal grandfather let him be dumped in an orphanage for the next four years with no clue of anything except vague memories of his loving father in the old station wagon they traveled the country in.  When he was adopted by Justin he had no reason to believe he had any living family.  What little he knew of his mother is what he was told by his adoptive father, whom he loved and trusted until he was sixteen.  Then the crap hit the fan, his fae god mother didn't or couldn't tell him the truth... When he was saved at the trial by Eb, he basically learned nothing about his mother other than she was a killer rebel who was under sentence of death.   Eb then took him in for the next three years, never even hinting that he was really his grandfather... Later in Blood Rite when a wounded Harry confronts him about a lot of things, Eb still couldn't or wouldn't tell him the whole truth about who he was or his mother..

I liked your whole post, but I want to point something out.  Eb didn't tell Harry very much about his father either.  In Blood Rites Eb finally confirmed what Chauncey had told Harry in book 2 about his mother's death, but not about his father death.  He only said something about his father having "as good a soul as I have ever gazed."  (I'll have to look up the exact quote, I know my wording isn't 100% correct.)  Anyway, this implied Ebenezer shared a soul gaze with Malcolm Dresden but little else.

Ebenezer is the one person Harry can talk to; when the opportunity arises, without incurring a debt.  I could buy that Harry was so inflamed when he heard that Lord Raith murdered his mother that he couldn't think straight.  However, I think the time is past due for Harry to want to probe Eb for more information about his father.  Harry really hasn't had many opportunities to do this in the past.  I'm hoping there will be an opportunity for that to happen in Peace Talks.
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2018, 02:22:36 PM »
Your wording on Eb and Malcolm is off in a very important way.  It's either as good a soul as he'd ever seen or known.  But not Seen.  Definitely not gazed.  It does not suggest that Eb and Malcolm soulgazed each other.

You're not wrong in that it doesn't provide much other information, so Eb might not have known a ton about Malcolm, but enough to know he's a good person.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2018, 03:05:39 PM »
Thomas is in pretty good standing with the Court now - I don't see why the library would be off limits to him in his own right. And if he's bringing Bob for a ridealong in his head at the time, how's Lara going to be any the wiser?
Being in good public standing in the Court does not mean that the most devious and cunning of the White Court is going to let someone she knows has more loyalty to Harry than to her just run around and look at all of her most guarded things.

That would just be stupid of her.

Your wording on Eb and Malcolm is off in a very important way.  It's either as good a soul as he'd ever seen or known.  But not Seen.  Definitely not gazed.  It does not suggest that Eb and Malcolm soulgazed each other.

You're not wrong in that it doesn't provide much other information, so Eb might not have known a ton about Malcolm, but enough to know he's a good person.
How else would one see a soul? Ebenezer says "seen." That's the word he uses. I don't think we can say he "definitely" didn't Soulgaze him based solely on a lack of a capital letter.
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2018, 06:56:47 PM »
I read that portion of Blood Rites last night and considered what Ebeneezer meant. He says "soul," and he says "seen."

The narrator is Harry, who isn't at his best in that moment, so we don't know if Ebeneezer meant "Seen" or "seen." Jim often capitalizes sight, saw, seen, and such when talking about a soul gaze or wizard's sight. I'm not sure if Jim ever uses the lower case in that context.

This specific passage is very ambiguous and open to interpretation.

Online Mira

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2018, 09:49:33 PM »
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How else would one see a soul? Ebenezer says "seen." That's the word he uses. I don't think we can say he "definitely" didn't Soulgaze him based solely on a lack of a capital letter.

  Yes, and this was the guy his daughter claimed to love and want to marry.  Granted they hadn't got on all that well before, yet he did have dinner with her and Raith once in a while.  I am thinking that Margaret let Eb in on her plans to create a star child with Malcolm..  Eb's soul gaze could have possibly confirmed that Malcolm had what it took to father such a child.. Plus Eb may just wanted to
know what kind of man could change his daughter for the better like Malcolm did.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2018, 12:39:10 AM »
I am thinking that Margaret let Eb in on her plans to create a star child with Malcolm.

Here is some WoJ:
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At what time did Ebenezer know that Harry existed, and does he know that Thomas is his grandson.
Not until it was too late.  Not till after Justin’s death that he was able to find out.  As far as Thomas, Stay Tuned.

This doesn't mean that Eb didn't know Maggie was planning on having children with Malcolm, but it does mean that he didn't know that Maggie was pregnant. When Maggie died, Eb didn't know to go looking for Harry to keep an eye on him.

Offline peregrine

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Re: Harry's lack of research
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2018, 03:08:59 AM »
How else would one see a soul? Ebenezer says "seen." That's the word he uses. I don't think we can say he "definitely" didn't Soulgaze him based solely on a lack of a capital letter.
Eb said he saw the man, not the soul.  And I'm not saying he "definitely" didn't gaze him, I'm saying he definitely didn't say "Gazed."