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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on November 04, 2018, 11:40:16 PM

Title: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Yuillegan on November 04, 2018, 11:40:16 PM
I know we have a lot of information Harry doesn't, but it really astounds me for a guy who is meant to be a big knowledge seeker (as a Wizard) that Harry does so little. He spends so much time fighting, which is interesting, but at some point wouldn't you make a list of all the weird stuff you might need to know?

For example, one of the biggest mysteries is Harry's mother. Who she was, what she did, what she was a part of etc. Harry has been told repeatedly of her dangerous activity, her disregard of the council, her anarchist/activist nature and that she was involved with some really bad people (Lord Raith, Justin, Lea, Nicodemus, Ariana etc). But he has done almost no research into this. Why not call up Lea and say "Hey I need to know about my mother etc?"

And there are many more: What is a Starborn? Why do I have power over Outsiders? Maybe ask Mab a bit more about the Outsiders. He certainly should be having a larger chat with the Gatekeeper about all of that. Definitely some research into Kemmler would likely prove fruitful. What about asking Ebenezer about Drakul, Kincaid, how the supernatural nations hitmen work? And he really needs to read Merlin's journals, and maybe all those other ones. Which likely for plot reasons will only happen when Eb dies. How about the really weird mystic anomaly in Ghost Story where the "Shade" of Dresden is able to appear on Holy Ground, when others cannot e.g. Kravos. I think that the current theory is because Harry was not actually a "shade" but part "soul" as well. But still never explicitly answered.

I do understand that all will be revealed in time, plots need to form there own way. But surely you would ask more of these questions as it seems to affect just about everything you do?

Anyone got any other areas Harry should be researching?
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Bad Alias on November 05, 2018, 02:38:21 AM
A lot of that is explained by Harry's lack of introspection. A lot of it might be that he doesn't want to know. What if his mother was a horrible person? He probably wouldn't want to pay whatever price "people" are asking.

If it was me, I'd be digging for all sorts of information. For example, when he still had Bob, I'd be forcing Bob to read all sorts of science text books. I'm sure a thorough understanding of science and engineering would help with new and interesting magic. If I'd ever figured out how much information is on the internet, I'd find a way to use the internet, probably through Bob.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Yuillegan on November 05, 2018, 03:14:13 AM
Well true. But he did want to know his past in Ghost Story. Lots of Clues in that book. But he chose to ask about his current problems - classic Dresden style. He sees a problem and goes straight at it, and think barely two moves ahead. No real sense of the long game. Which is incredibly weird for a Wizard, especially one in his forties. But then again, that is who he is.

Another mystery that hasn't been addressed from Ghost Story, for instance, is who the enemy are. When Dresden first is in Between (which we don't really know what that is), he sees an angel called Amitiel. Jack tells him that is a clue to who cheated in order to kill him. Dresden responds with actual Fallen angels, and Jack says
Quote
Not exactly. But if you want to think of it that way, it works. Sort of. What you need to know is they're the bad guys

So what the hell does that mean, pun intended. The opposition to angels should be the Fallen, and yet are not. But it is something very similar. Is he implying it was the Denarians or the Circle or something else? And I can assure you, if someone/thing was messing with my life like that, I would be pretty keen on finding out who tricked me into killing myself. But Dresden hasn't even approached that, and likely won't for some time.

The only correlation I can think of is Nemesis/The Enemy. Jack says to Harry (when referring to those that compromised his death) "You were getting in their way. They wanted you gone. They broke the law to make that happen". Rashid in Cold Days says something similar "Unwittingly or not, virtually your every action in the past few years has resulted in a series of well placed thumbs in the adversary's eye"

Harry has a lot of the information he needs to solve the puzzle, but more people on these boards have connected the dots than he has.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Bad Alias on November 05, 2018, 03:24:29 AM
I agree. I'd at least try to figure everything I could out that was directly relevant to me.

But Harry really wants to know this stuff, then never looks into it. After Chauncey says that Harry has family and his parents were murdered, Harry chooses to ignore that information until he stumbles across his brother, his mother's murder, and later his grandfather. Seriously, what the fudge man.

He's still never looked into whether or not his dad was murdered and by who after all the other information turned out to be true.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Yuillegan on November 05, 2018, 04:08:49 AM
I know. I mean obviously that is just how Jim is drawing out the story, but I guess after 20 years a few things get lost. I just think he needs to at least have a passage with Harry putting together a string diagram trying to piece it all together.

Another mystery, in Cold Days Maeve says that Mab is mad and and intends to unleash chaos and destruction not seen since the fall of Atlantis. Like I know the guy is busy, but wouldn't you go "hey, might be time to ask what happened to Atlantis" to someone who would have the true story.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Mira on November 05, 2018, 04:58:26 AM

  I disagree..  Remember the story is told in the first person, and Harry does seem to know
a lot.  He wouldn't have survived this long if he hadn't.  He used both Bob and Lash for information when he needed it, it has been critical to him when needed. 

Harry has been lied to about his mother for most of his life.. By people he loved and respected, most of all trusted, from Justin to Eb...  He has also suffered from PTSD from his encounter with HWWB to the killing of Justin, lots of stuff has just been blocked out of his mind.  It's the mind's way of protecting itself. 
Quote
Another mystery, in Cold Days Maeve says that Mab is mad and and intends to unleash chaos and destruction not seen since the fall of Atlantis. Like I know the guy is busy, but wouldn't you go "hey, might be time to ask what happened to Atlantis" to someone who would have the true story.

Or since he figured out  that Maeve herself was mad, think she'd tell him the truth?  Or merely her version of the truth?  In any case what happened to Atlantis really wasn't relevant to his mission at the moment... Who knows, maybe off page or between books he did the research?

Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: morriswalters on November 05, 2018, 12:15:26 PM
.

Another mystery, in Cold Days Maeve says that Mab is mad and and intends to unleash chaos and destruction not seen since the fall of Atlantis. Like I know the guy is busy, but wouldn't you go "hey, might be time to ask what happened to Atlantis" to someone who would have the true story.
Thanks I missed that.  I just knew Atlantis had to rear its ugly head.

And Harry has a new talking head for research.  Named Bonea.  Chock full of Fallen Angel knowledge.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Mira on November 05, 2018, 12:17:56 PM
Thanks I missed that.  I just knew Atlantis had to rear its ugly head.

And Harry has a new talking head for research.  Named Bonea.  Chock full of Fallen Angel knowledge.

And you can bet he will be asking her a lot of questions.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: dspringer1 on November 05, 2018, 07:04:45 PM
I disagree with the premise of Yuillegan that Harry does not do research.   It is more complex than that.

1) Many examples of Harry researching a specific power, school of magic or being.   However, this only comes up when relevant.  Harry only speaks of manipulating time when it is relevant, even though clearly he is more knowledgeable in cold days than he was in Storm Front on the topic.  For example, in cold days Harry revealed he now had a detailed understanding of all the ley lines around Chicago, something he clearly did not have in some of the earlier books. 

2) There are several examples of topics which are very personal to Harry - his mother, hints of other family members.  Agree he should have asked people for details of his mother, check with Ebenezzer on other potential family members, etc.  But I suspect that these issues are so deeply personal that he is just reluctant to talk about them - or perhaps unwilling to face potentially more unpleasant revelations.   


I totally agree that Harry should have researched starborn or soulfire.  Maybe he has, but it has not been revealed yet. 

For those suggesting "just ask Lea" or "just ask Mab" -- recognize that these individuals will demand a high price for that knowledge.   The only practical exception is that if they need Harry to accomplish something that requires that knowledge, they will find a way to deliver the info.  But that is a very narrow exception.   Also recognize that both such individuals can share facts, but both are also clearly unable to understand human behavior and motivations well.    And that type of information is exactly what Harry would most treasure.  Not the facts, but the understanding of them as people. 








Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Mr. Death on November 05, 2018, 07:14:35 PM
Nearly everyone who has told Harry anything about either the Starborn business in general or his mother specifically has either been:

A. Evil and trying to turn him to their side;
B. Evil and trying to kill him; or
C. One of the above and now dead.

Suffice to say, Harry doesn't have a lot of resources he can go to for information about either of those -- not without incurring a huge cost for that knowledge, anyway.

I also agree that he's probably in a lot of denial, about his mother specifically -- like any child, he wants to believe his mother was Good and Right (hence him defending her when Luccio speaks of her) and, as above, three of the people who've said the most about to him about his mother are a literal demon from Hell, the man who murdered her, and the man who started the Black Plague as a second honeymoon. Of the rest, two of them have stated that the White Council had a kill order out on her as a Warlock.

The only person who seemed just simply friendly with her and was not evil was the Gatekeeper, and getting information out of him is ... tricky.

So yeah -- Harry has every reason to fear that any further information he gets about his mother will paint her badly, so he's probably reluctant to seek it out.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Arjan on November 05, 2018, 08:31:02 PM
Lea knows but getting it from her will be expensive...
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Mira on November 06, 2018, 12:12:57 PM
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I totally agree that Harry should have researched starborn or soulfire.  Maybe he has, but it has not been revealed yet. 

He did try to find out what soul fire was, but Bob had limited information, but since he is neither human nor an angel,misleading..  Uriel won't or isn't allowed to explain it to him... It is a journey he
has to go on alone to discover what it is..  I believe he is beginning to understand when he used it to
free himself in his encounter with Mother Winter.   In short it isn't something he can effectively research.  Nor is information about star children all that forth coming.. 
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 06, 2018, 01:48:52 PM
Harry's best source for knowledge is other wizards. Unfortunately...
1. Harry spends alot of time alone.
2. Most wizards are skittish of Harry.
3. Wizards hold onto their secrets like a nun does her sexuality.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: forumghost on November 06, 2018, 11:43:18 PM
Harry's best source for knowledge is other wizards. Unfortunately...
1. Harry spends alot of time alone.
2. Most wizards are skittish of Harry.
3. Wizards hold onto their secrets like a nun does her sexuality.

4. Harry is an idiot who never does any research unless the subject of it is trying to eat his face sometime in the next 48 Hours. He had Bob (one of the greatest sources of Magical Knowledge on the Planet) for years and didn't even know there were multiple Vampire Courts until after the Series began, He's chronically incapable of actually using his brain.

5. Harry seems to in fact actively avoid knowledge about certain highly important subjects, such as his Mother, because he just don't want to know.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: morriswalters on November 07, 2018, 11:44:31 AM
I know we have a lot of information Harry doesn't, but it really astounds me for a guy who is meant to be a big knowledge seeker (as a Wizard) that Harry does so little. He spends so much time fighting, which is interesting, but at some point wouldn't you make a list of all the weird stuff you might need to know?
After Susan is turned Harry gets obsessive researching  vampires, to the detriment of everything else. 

By PG he has researched and built LC, to the point Bob is complaining about the time he has spent doing so. 

Thereafter he has an apprentice to train. 

He continuously modifies the wards on his home to counter new threats as he finds them. 

Modifies and improves his force rings as well as his other magical gadgets. 

Spends time training newbie wardens. 

He was dead or incapacitated for a year, his arcane library burned. 

And for the last two years he didn't have Bob.

And after the events of Cold Days states that if it happened again he would be able to shut the same events down without breaking a sweat.  Implying he researched the capabilities of Demonreach.

As for knowing his mother, why should he be any different than anyone else.  You know your mother because she was there as you were raised.   And at that you know your mother, not the person she was.  If she had died before you were born, she would be a collection of photographs and stories told to you by the people who knew her.  And look at who Harry's mother ran with.  A bunch are dead, or inhuman.  The ability to research implies a record to examine.  In a lot of ways Margaret was an International Women Of Mystery. 
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Mira on November 07, 2018, 12:55:45 PM
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As for knowing his mother, why should he be any different than anyone else.  You know your mother because she was there as you were raised.   And at that you know your mother, not the person she was.  If she had died before you were born, she would be a collection of photographs and stories told to you by the people who knew her.  And look at who Harry's mother ran with.  A bunch are dead, or inhuman.  The ability to research implies a record to examine.  In a lot of ways Margaret was an International Women Of Mystery. 

   Knowledge was also deliberately kept from him.   His mother died when he was born, his father, when he was six, instead of stepping forward and claiming him, his maternal grandfather let him be
dumped in an orphanage for the next four years with no clue of anything except vague memories of his loving father in the old station wagon they traveled the country in.  When he was adopted by Justin he had no reason to believe he had any living family.  What little he knew of his mother is what he was told by his adoptive father, whom he loved and trusted until he was sixteen.  Then the
crap hit the fan, his fae god mother didn't or couldn't tell him the truth... When he was saved at the
trial by Eb, he basically learned nothing about his mother other than she was a killer rebel who
was under sentence of death.   Eb then took him in for the next three years, never even hinting that he was really his grandfather... Later in Blood Rite when a wounded Harry confronts him about a lot of things, Eb still couldn't or wouldn't tell him the whole truth about who he was or his mother..  Harry was shocked and pissed about what had been kept from him, but really had no basis to probe further.. He  finds out from Thomas that they are half brothers in the same book... He sees and talks with his mother in a soul gaze but beyond confirming that he and Thomas are indeed brothers she gives him very little information save she was sorry about the future she set him up for...  Thomas is no real help either, because he was also a small child when she ran away..  He gets bits and pieces, hints about his mother, but they are fleeting like what Chancy told him.. But the price of getting the full story from him is was way too dear...  Lash promised to tell him everything she knows, but then she was killed..  But you have to ask, why didn't she volunteer this information sooner to him?   Finally in Cold Days Rashid finally sees fit to tell Harry that he was good friends with his mother, that they had dinner together and swapped information about the ways, but it wasn't the time to probe futher...  There is a hint of a conspiracy, one to keep Harry as safe as possible, the other to keep information from him as long as possible until needed...  One having a lot to do with the other..  Research into what happened to his mother?  It isn't like Harry hasn't been a very busy man the last thirty or so years..  He cannot simply "google" what he wants to know and when he wants it..  Those who do have information kept that they ever knew his mother at all from him until it oozes out, but then they keep most of what they know from him...  He really hasn't had the luxury of time to  obsess about it..   
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: toodeep on November 07, 2018, 04:56:54 PM
It is true that in many cases, asking people for answers would have a cost - obviously with the fae, etc., but also with asking other wizards about some things, like soulfire.  I don't think he wants to advertise he has it, which asking other people about it would be tantamount to doing.

But, there have been sources that could be plumbed more easily. 
1.  Follow up with Goodman Gray about what he knows about his mother
2.  Follow up with the gatekeeper about half a million things, including his mother; but most certainly about being starborn since that appears to be right in his expertise
3.  Follow up with his brother about getting access to information from Papa Raiths forbidden library.  We know he had stuff about outsiders and we know he was in cahoots with Harry's mom about something but he has done nothing to find out more about that despite having an ally in the court and possible access to a mindbent papa Raith.
4.  Two words - The Archive.  Sooooo much he can ask her about.  There are some things she can't answer, but I would assume she would be very useful at deep background or even just pointing him to where he should look, even if she can't answer the really important questions because of her restrictions.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Mr. Death on November 07, 2018, 05:06:01 PM
It is true that in many cases, asking people for answers would have a cost - obviously with the fae, etc., but also with asking other wizards about some things, like soulfire.  I don't think he wants to advertise he has it, which asking other people about it would be tantamount to doing.

But, there have been sources that could be plumbed more easily. 
1.  Follow up with Goodman Gray about what he knows about his mother
Doable -- but probably has a price. Then again, Gray's prices so far have been straightforward and manageable.
Quote
2.  Follow up with the gatekeeper about half a million things, including his mother; but most certainly about being starborn since that appears to be right in his expertise
He might be willing to tell Harry what he needs to know, but not necessarily what he wants to know.
Quote
3.  Follow up with his brother about getting access to information from Papa Raiths forbidden library.  We know he had stuff about outsiders and we know he was in cahoots with Harry's mom about something but he has done nothing to find out more about that despite having an ally in the court and possible access to a mindbent papa Raith.
It's not Thomas he'd have to go through for that. It's Lara. Going to her for information is damn near on par for danger with going to Lea for it.
Quote
4.  Two words - The Archive.  Sooooo much he can ask her about.  There are some things she can't answer, but I would assume she would be very useful at deep background or even just pointing him to where he should look, even if she can't answer the really important questions because of her restrictions.
This is a non-starter. The Archive can't just give out information -- it was pulling teeth to get her to give a single hint in Changes, which was only possible because of the intensely personal nature of the request and how Harry put it to her. That tiny piece of information that Harry got for a much more important reason than mere curiosity is implied to have been huge for her to give out.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: dspringer1 on November 09, 2018, 12:18:46 AM
Here is a thought about all those magical questions:  Starborn, Soulfire, Specific Outsiders, Black Council, Nature of Mantels/Queens,

His new spirit of Intellect - Bonnie I think - has a very large set of information copied from a fallen angel.   Information that clearly pre-dates creation itself.  And she is likely to be perfectly willing to answer. 

Unless of course some of those rules that limit immortals or angels also apply to this new spirit of intellect -- or if those rules simply kept that information from the spirit in the first place.   After all, Lash's spirit was in Harry's brain.  On some level that might mean accessible to a mortal.   I suspect there are rules limiting that. 
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Snark Knight on November 09, 2018, 12:24:23 AM
It's not Thomas he'd have to go through for that. It's Lara. Going to her for information is damn near on par for danger with going to Lea for it.This is a non-starter.

Thomas is in pretty good standing with the Court now - I don't see why the library would be off limits to him in his own right. And if he's bringing Bob for a ridealong in his head at the time, how's Lara going to be any the wiser?
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: morriswalters on November 09, 2018, 01:30:07 AM
Here is a thought about all those magical questions:  Starborn, Soulfire, Specific Outsiders, Black Council, Nature of Mantels/Queens,

His new spirit of Intellect - Bonnie I think - has a very large set of information copied from a fallen angel.   Information that clearly pre-dates creation itself.  And she is likely to be perfectly willing to answer. 

Unless of course some of those rules that limit immortals or angels also apply to this new spirit of intellect -- or if those rules simply kept that information from the spirit in the first place.   After all, Lash's spirit was in Harry's brain.  On some level that might mean accessible to a mortal.   I suspect there are rules limiting that.
It will be interesting to see how it's played in the books.  It's an open question on what Uriel might allow Bonea speak about, or what Harry could understand if she did.

Lara loves Thomas, but that doesn't mean she trusts him.  She bugs his communications.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Bad Alias on November 09, 2018, 04:45:52 AM
The problem with Bonea is that she has no understanding of the knowledge she has. She probably won't realize what's important, related, or relevant most of the time.

Like most children, getting her to help out on various things will be more about teaching her than getting any actual help from her.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Arjan on November 09, 2018, 08:23:37 AM
The problem with Bonea is that she has no understanding of the knowledge she has. She probably won't realize what's important, related, or relevant most of the time.

Like most children, getting her to help out on various things will be more about teaching her than getting any actual help from her.
The best way of getting information out of Bonea is actually teaching her.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on November 09, 2018, 09:29:05 AM
Nearly everyone who has told Harry anything about either the Starborn business in general or his mother specifically has either been:

A. Evil and trying to turn him to their side;
B. Evil and trying to kill him; or
C. One of the above and now dead.

Suffice to say, Harry doesn't have a lot of resources he can go to for information about either of those -- not without incurring a huge cost for that knowledge, anyway.

I also agree that he's probably in a lot of denial, about his mother specifically -- like any child, he wants to believe his mother was Good and Right (hence him defending her when Luccio speaks of her) and, as above, three of the people who've said the most about to him about his mother are a literal demon from Hell, the man who murdered her, and the man who started the Black Plague as a second honeymoon. Of the rest, two of them have stated that the White Council had a kill order out on her as a Warlock.

The only person who seemed just simply friendly with her and was not evil was the Gatekeeper, and getting information out of him is ... tricky.

So yeah -- Harry has every reason to fear that any further information he gets about his mother will paint her badly, so he's probably reluctant to seek it out.

Good post with very solid points, but you're missing something.  (Read below)

   Knowledge was also deliberately kept from him.   His mother died when he was born, his father, when he was six, instead of stepping forward and claiming him, his maternal grandfather let him be dumped in an orphanage for the next four years with no clue of anything except vague memories of his loving father in the old station wagon they traveled the country in.  When he was adopted by Justin he had no reason to believe he had any living family.  What little he knew of his mother is what he was told by his adoptive father, whom he loved and trusted until he was sixteen.  Then the crap hit the fan, his fae god mother didn't or couldn't tell him the truth... When he was saved at the trial by Eb, he basically learned nothing about his mother other than she was a killer rebel who was under sentence of death.   Eb then took him in for the next three years, never even hinting that he was really his grandfather... Later in Blood Rite when a wounded Harry confronts him about a lot of things, Eb still couldn't or wouldn't tell him the whole truth about who he was or his mother..

I liked your whole post, but I want to point something out.  Eb didn't tell Harry very much about his father either.  In Blood Rites Eb finally confirmed what Chauncey had told Harry in book 2 about his mother's death, but not about his father death.  He only said something about his father having "as good a soul as I have ever gazed."  (I'll have to look up the exact quote, I know my wording isn't 100% correct.)  Anyway, this implied Ebenezer shared a soul gaze with Malcolm Dresden but little else.

Ebenezer is the one person Harry can talk to; when the opportunity arises, without incurring a debt.  I could buy that Harry was so inflamed when he heard that Lord Raith murdered his mother that he couldn't think straight.  However, I think the time is past due for Harry to want to probe Eb for more information about his father.  Harry really hasn't had many opportunities to do this in the past.  I'm hoping there will be an opportunity for that to happen in Peace Talks.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: peregrine on November 09, 2018, 02:22:36 PM
Your wording on Eb and Malcolm is off in a very important way.  It's either as good a soul as he'd ever seen or known.  But not Seen.  Definitely not gazed.  It does not suggest that Eb and Malcolm soulgazed each other.

You're not wrong in that it doesn't provide much other information, so Eb might not have known a ton about Malcolm, but enough to know he's a good person.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Mr. Death on November 09, 2018, 03:05:39 PM
Thomas is in pretty good standing with the Court now - I don't see why the library would be off limits to him in his own right. And if he's bringing Bob for a ridealong in his head at the time, how's Lara going to be any the wiser?
Being in good public standing in the Court does not mean that the most devious and cunning of the White Court is going to let someone she knows has more loyalty to Harry than to her just run around and look at all of her most guarded things.

That would just be stupid of her.

Your wording on Eb and Malcolm is off in a very important way.  It's either as good a soul as he'd ever seen or known.  But not Seen.  Definitely not gazed.  It does not suggest that Eb and Malcolm soulgazed each other.

You're not wrong in that it doesn't provide much other information, so Eb might not have known a ton about Malcolm, but enough to know he's a good person.
How else would one see a soul? Ebenezer says "seen." That's the word he uses. I don't think we can say he "definitely" didn't Soulgaze him based solely on a lack of a capital letter.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Bad Alias on November 09, 2018, 06:56:47 PM
I read that portion of Blood Rites last night and considered what Ebeneezer meant. He says "soul," and he says "seen."

The narrator is Harry, who isn't at his best in that moment, so we don't know if Ebeneezer meant "Seen" or "seen." Jim often capitalizes sight, saw, seen, and such when talking about a soul gaze or wizard's sight. I'm not sure if Jim ever uses the lower case in that context.

This specific passage is very ambiguous and open to interpretation.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Mira on November 09, 2018, 09:49:33 PM
Quote
How else would one see a soul? Ebenezer says "seen." That's the word he uses. I don't think we can say he "definitely" didn't Soulgaze him based solely on a lack of a capital letter.

  Yes, and this was the guy his daughter claimed to love and want to marry.  Granted they hadn't got on all that well before, yet he did have dinner with her and Raith once in a while.  I am thinking that Margaret let Eb in on her plans to create a star child with Malcolm..  Eb's soul gaze could have possibly confirmed that Malcolm had what it took to father such a child.. Plus Eb may just wanted to
know what kind of man could change his daughter for the better like Malcolm did.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Bad Alias on November 10, 2018, 12:39:10 AM
I am thinking that Margaret let Eb in on her plans to create a star child with Malcolm.

Here is some WoJ:
Quote
At what time did Ebenezer know that Harry existed, and does he know that Thomas is his grandson.
Not until it was too late.  Not till after Justin’s death that he was able to find out.  As far as Thomas, Stay Tuned.

This doesn't mean that Eb didn't know Maggie was planning on having children with Malcolm, but it does mean that he didn't know that Maggie was pregnant. When Maggie died, Eb didn't know to go looking for Harry to keep an eye on him.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: peregrine on November 10, 2018, 03:08:59 AM
How else would one see a soul? Ebenezer says "seen." That's the word he uses. I don't think we can say he "definitely" didn't Soulgaze him based solely on a lack of a capital letter.
Eb said he saw the man, not the soul.  And I'm not saying he "definitely" didn't gaze him, I'm saying he definitely didn't say "Gazed."
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on November 10, 2018, 04:19:03 AM
The point I wanted to make when I brought up Ebenezer is that he may have more information on Malcolm Dresden than what he told Harry in Blood Rites.  Even if Eb didn't know about Harry until Harry's trial, he might have done some research about Harry's childhood.  He might know something even if he doesn't know it's significant or he might have learned something important when he met Malcolm.  Plus, it doesn't cost Harry anything to ask.

The best way of getting information out of Bonea is actually teaching her.

Remember that last conversation Harry had with Lash about his mother?  Bonea may have some very important info about Harry's mother even if she has no idea what it means.  That should be a strong enough reason for Harry to want to teach Bonea.   
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: zetadog on November 10, 2018, 09:11:07 AM
each book normally takes place over the course of a few days.  In order for there to be suspense and mystery, Harry has to learn or discover new things over the course of the story.  Presumably, he learns some stuff in between books and occasionally mentions it.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Mr. Death on November 10, 2018, 03:16:11 PM
Eb said he saw the man, not the soul.  And I'm not saying he "definitely" didn't gaze him, I'm saying he definitely didn't say "Gazed."
His exact line is:

"She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen."

He is explicitly commenting on the quality of his soul, and comparing it to other souls he's seen. That strongly implies that he saw Malcolm's soul, too.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: groinkick on November 10, 2018, 09:08:21 PM
His exact line is:

"She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen."

He is explicitly commenting on the quality of his soul, and comparing it to other souls he's seen. That strongly implies that he saw Malcolm's soul, too.

Eb is 400 years old...  That statement carries meaning to me.  Eb has probably gazed a lot of people...  I don't know if it is a hint about Malcolm but it could be...  Sounds like he has character like Michael
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: peregrine on November 10, 2018, 10:30:04 PM
His exact line is:

"She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen."

He is explicitly commenting on the quality of his soul, and comparing it to other souls he's seen. That strongly implies that he saw Malcolm's soul, too.
That's one way to read it, but he could also be commenting on the man part.  A man like few he'd ever seen who had a good soul.  It's not explicitly about the soul.

Though, the quote also does argue against him being a Knight.  A Knight may not have powers, if you consider the powers part of the sword, but having the sword would give him both influence and resources, even if that resource is only the sword itself.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: morriswalters on November 11, 2018, 04:52:47 AM
Sometimes the thing about questions is knowing what and who to ask?  Anyone might know something about Margaret, but who is the one who has the information that Harry needs to know?  What's worse, does Harry know he needs it?

With whom would she have confided?  The biggest secret I'm aware of is what she did that made Lea owe her a debt?   If I had to guess I'd say the answer to that lies with the jewel on Harry's amulet.  After the events of Changes Mab returns it to him.  Which could be looked at as having some significance.
Title: Re: Harry's lack of research
Post by: Mira on November 13, 2018, 12:35:48 PM
Sometimes the thing about questions is knowing what and who to ask?  Anyone might know something about Margaret, but who is the one who has the information that Harry needs to know?  What's worse, does Harry know he needs it?

With whom would she have confided?  The biggest secret I'm aware of is what she did that made Lea owe her a debt?   If I had to guess I'd say the answer to that lies with the jewel on Harry's amulet.  After the events of Changes Mab returns it to him.  Which could be looked at as having some significance.

The problem there is he has no idea who his mother associated with.   Everyone of the Senior Council knew her apparently, but until recently the only message he got from them about her was she was a killer and a rebel...  On one hand Eb painted a little different picture of her in Blood Rite, but because of his own pain and guilt perhaps wouldn't go any further nor volunteer that she was his daughter..  That in of itself seems to be a secret that few know, save good friends like Rashid and I bet Listens to Winds and maybe Martha Liberty.