Author Topic: Who are the members of the Grey Council?  (Read 4320 times)

Offline peregrine

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2018, 07:56:35 PM »
And this theory is much more reasonable than the idea that Merlin had his own plan in place and was worried that Harry "Wrench in the gears" Dresden would fuck it all up by going of on his own.  Like he did when he stared the war in the first place.

Offline Mira

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2018, 08:49:11 PM »
And this theory is much more reasonable than the idea that Merlin had his own plan in place and was worried that Harry "Wrench in the gears" Dresden would fuck it all up by going of on his own.  Like he did when he stared the war in the first place.

   Which is exactly the excuse he'd use....  It's not the Merlin's fault that the Red Court decided to kidnap Harry's little girl with the idea of sacrificing her.  The should have known that Harry is a very emotional man and would lash out consequences be damned, the White Council cannot in any way be held responsible for that....  Oh, he'd be very diplomatic about it too, and if the Red Court wanted Harry's balls in payment, he'd go along with that as well...

Offline peregrine

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2018, 09:07:37 PM »
Then why did he flat out tell Harry not to do it, vs... nothing at all, since that's what Harry was going to do anyways?  Was Harry going to try super hard to kill them just because Merlin said not to, and only slightly hard otherwise?

Offline Mira

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2018, 05:45:40 AM »
Then why did he flat out tell Harry not to do it, vs... nothing at all, since that's what Harry was going to do anyways?  Was Harry going to try super hard to kill them just because Merlin said not to, and only slightly hard otherwise?

  He suggested, he suggested in such a way that conveyed an understanding to Harry that this is what needed to be done...  Kind of like when King Henry made the suggestion, "would someone rid him of this meddlesome priest.."

Offline groinkick

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2018, 05:54:36 AM »
If Merlin was involved it would be more easily proven if other avenues to victory could be shown since he's  always got backup plans.  So if Harry had failed, what was the other avenues to victory? 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2018, 10:25:15 AM »
Assuming that Langtry was honest in his desire to exterminate the Reds, it may have been simply an indication that he was through playing defense and was going to go on the offensive.  He would have needed a clear betrayal of the peace process to bring the Council to a state of total war.  In at least a few ways this follows the outlines of the US entry into WW2. Roosevelt wanted war, but needed a casus belli in terms of an event like Pearl Harbor. And the illness released on the Council by Ariana could have been it.

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2018, 12:41:09 PM »
Then why did he flat out tell Harry not to do it, vs... nothing at all, since that's what Harry was going to do anyways?  Was Harry going to try super hard to kill them just because Merlin said not to, and only slightly hard otherwise?
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Offline raidem

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2018, 04:49:12 PM »
Eb didn't know exactly what the plan was for the Grey Council in fighting the Reds. The Grey Council had a different mission in mind before Harry informed Eb that it was Harry's daughter they were sacrificing.  I highly doubt Merlin knew that the Grey Council would follow Harry to CI. I favor the idea that there were multiple plans to defeat the Reds, root and branch and some of these plans failed.  Harry succeeded.


This follows the Merlin's multi-tiered strategy of approaching problems.

This all said, the Merlin has access to lots more information than Eb does, I'd say.  I still think the battle of CI was one in which both sides had ample foresight to go toe to toe against each other, and it became a slug fest. Obviously, Vadderung had the edge.  We just don't know how much advantage he gave the winning side in that.  It is said per WOJ that
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 04:56:28 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Kindler

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2018, 05:30:39 PM »
Merlin's "root and branch" declaration to Harry included some references to preparing for the largest counteroffensive they had ever attempted. My take on it was that Merlin was waiting for the Reds to take their swing, and be ready for it. Once they had committed enough resources to it (like, for example, gathering a huge chunk of the Red Court's nobility all in one place at Chichen Itza), they'd foil the attack, then counter with everything they had. I assume it was a military operation.

That got shut down when half the Wardens were out of commission. They were expecting an attack, not an infiltration (seems odd after Peabody not to be hypervigilant when it comes to sabotage, which is what the illness felt like). Then Cristos took further advantage of the chaos (which I presume he created) and locked up most of the younger wardens.

Half a day later, the Red Court was dead, so... problem solved. Now just to deal with those mythological rejects suddenly and coincidentally crawling up out of the sea...

An interesting one is Montjoy. He was mentioned in Summer Knight as one of the candidates for Senior Council nominations but was unavailable because he was "on a research trip in the Yucatán," according to Martha Liberty.

The reason I find this interesting is because:
1. He's strong (or old) enough to be considered for a senior council position. So he potentially has the power level for Grey Council.
2. Martha Liberty was the one who knew where he was. She's an ally of Eb so I'd say that puts Montjoy in the Eb/Martha/Indunjoe faction.
3. He was in the Yucatan. Know what else is in Yucatan? Chichen Itza. Sounds like he was doing some research into the red court.

If he is in the Grey council, I don't know that being named in passing a single time in the series is enough to be considered by Jim in the list of 6 that we "already know".

So he might be one of 4 we haven't met instead.

I've been chewing on the audiobooks this time around during my commute, and I picked up on that for the first time as I listened to Summer Knight. I peg him as either Grey Council or one of the traitors who had given away Archangel—he was either spying or informing (I think, anyway).

Offline raidem

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2018, 01:56:20 PM »
Yeah.  I caught the Montjoy Yucatan, Chichen Itza connection before.  I didn't know all of what to make of it.  But I think it likely he was scouting out the Reds.

I didn't think much to include him in the Grey Council but now that you mention it, it sounds very reasonable.  That said, I sorta wondered what Peabody or whoever did with that tidbit of knowledge that Montjoy was scouting out the Reds.  I, paranoid me, was thinking that someone would conspire against him, or try to turn him.  Who knows though.


It could be that when Martha Liberty gave that information, Nemesis, Peabody, Black Council, Reds or whoever acted against him in some way to turn him.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 01:58:13 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Gman

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2018, 09:20:22 AM »
We know Odin, Harry and Eb are members. The Gatekeeper and Martha Liberty are very likely members. Carlos, Steed and Lea may be members. I doubt The Merlin is a member.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2018, 02:18:24 PM »
I think the Merlin and his strict adherence to White Council methods is part of the problem and that he is not part of the Grey Council solution.
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2018, 03:37:36 PM »
We know Odin, Harry and Eb are members. The Gatekeeper and Martha Liberty are very likely members. Carlos, Steed and Lea may be members. I doubt The Merlin is a member.
Lea is not a member because when Harry was counting them, he didn't include her in the numbers.  12 people showed up, plus Harry that makes the full 13.

Offline alllawyersarewizards

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2018, 04:12:31 AM »
My picks are:
Martha Liberty
The Erlking or Eldest Gruff
Maybe Wild Bill Meyers but he seems a bit young
Mavra.  She thwarts Cowl’s efforts to get the Word of Kemmler and had had it for years, yet never attempted the Darkhallow.  She teaches Bianca sorcery, yes, but she also probably helped coax Bianca into starting the War that ultimately wiped out the Reds. Plus, she may have been behind the poisoning of Susan, thus bringing about the birth of Maggie and the plan to use the Blood Curse.  Plus she was conspicuously absent from her own lair when Harry raided it, perhaps because she got a tip from her old friend McCoy? She’s playing the long game to eliminate her rivals.

Offline Alaran

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Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2018, 06:37:47 PM »
In Turn Coat Ebenezar sais that they are "Some wizards. Some key allies." Now Vadderung definitively fits the key ally box. But he uses plural, so there is at least one more. We also know from Changes that they all have wizard staves. There is only one that we have seen that can be considered a key ally and that has a staff, and that is Eldest Gruff.

On the wizard side we have a clue to the identity of one of the wizards in the grey council. During the battle in changes, Harry hear someone yell "Fuego". Most of the older wizards don't verbal out their spells. We can then assume that this is one of the less experienced of the members of the grey council. Have we seen anyone that fits so far?

Otherwise Martha Liberty is one that seems to be a obvious choice. Chandler is a good possibility, but could be wrong as he is most often seen without a wizard staff.
Klaus the Toymaker was established as an ally of Ebenezar in Summer Knight and seems JB has thought of a lot of backstory for him. I peg him as a member too.

So 3 of 6 so far. Listen-to-Wind was out of commision. Luccio is possible, but we've never seen any indication that Ebenezer trusts her like that. Ancient Mai and Langtry are unlikely, they both seem to believe too much in the institution of the white council.

Rashid I think is more likely, since Ebenezar changed his mind about him after talking to Harry in Turn Coat.
I also like Montjoy for the Grey Council.

Now, i have no idea about the last one. Wild Bill and Carlos seem too inexperienced to be trusted fully. Also don't think Carlos uses a staff. I would peg Chandler over Luccio if I had to pick one of the previous of the unlikely choices.