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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Con on September 14, 2018, 06:53:01 AM

Title: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Con on September 14, 2018, 06:53:01 AM
NOw keep in mind we have this quote to go off.

“So we found out who 2 of them were, i’d like to know how many of the rest we already know and how many of them haven’t been formally introduced to us yet.”
Hang on, counting… You already know six of the folks who showed up at Chichen Itza, excluding McCoy and Vadderung


Now also keep in mind Listens-to-wind was down for the count recovering in Edinbrough because of the plague that Duchess Arianna Ortega had unleashed.

Similarly Carlos was locked up, with Anastasia Luccio dealing with the political fall out.

The Merlin isn't a joiner given that the Grey Council was founded in part out of suspiscion of him, and if found out they would be declared enemies of the White Council.


SO who else do we think is on the Grey Council?

Chauncer aka Steed could be a member but I think he's a bit young for it.

Klaus the Toymaker might be a member but I suspect he's another identity of Vadderung/Kringle.

Other than that I struggle to come up with 6 wizards let alone prospective members powerful enough to take part in the Battle of Chitchzen Itza.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Ananda on September 14, 2018, 02:20:05 PM
I think the merlin is a member. He told Dresden he was going to wipe out the reds which means he had a plan to wipe them out that day. I think something close to what happened was his plan. He may be disguised to other members or a string puller.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Mira on September 14, 2018, 04:17:56 PM

We can assume that Harry is a member...
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 14, 2018, 07:59:09 PM
The Merlin being a member would require things such that literally everything we've ever heard anyone say about it would be a lie.  And while Harry might not know everyone, Eb probably does, because someone's got to be able to organize things, and he's said jackall when the subject came up.

Keep in mind also that because Vadderung is a member, it's not necessarily limited to White Council.  And with Vadderung (who is also Kringle) and Harry (who is also Winter Knight) are there, Summer might want a seat at the table, and as such Eldest Gruff is the likeliest of candidates.

We also saw Lara's influence in getting some sea support, she may be there as well.  Or perhaps not.  While she's got an interest in stopping the Red Court and the Black Council, she's still a vampire.  Also, not, as far as we know, an actual wizard or caster.

Steed is a viable option.  Luccio maybe as well, I don't remember if either of them were taken out by Ariana.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Con on September 14, 2018, 11:33:49 PM
Steed was the one who delivered Luccios note to Harry. Luccio had effectively been neutralised.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: morriswalters on September 15, 2018, 02:09:47 AM
No one we know as of yet.  One should assume that they were as powerful as Ebenezer or better.  JB has 5 books of content to deliver to get to the final trilogy.  He has time.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Con on September 15, 2018, 03:25:06 AM
Yeah but the fact that we know six of them bugs me.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 15, 2018, 03:34:44 AM
Also, I think that we will only have, at most, one more member of the Senior Council on the Grey Council.  Any more than that, and the Greys have a near majority, and would only need to convince one more (probably LtW) of the righteousness of their cause and suddenly they lose so much of the drama about keeping themselves secret.

With the whole of the Council there, and LtW out of the picture, Rashid seems like my most likely culprit.  We know he keeps other secrets from the SC after all.

Merlin is right out.
Cristos ditto, he's (they think) already working for the other side.
Mai seems antagonistic enough as is, very much a stickler for protocol.
LtW, as said, was ill and unable to attend.

Martha Liberty, and Rashid are the only others, and I could see both of them being sympathetic, but Rashid has more development. 
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on September 15, 2018, 04:01:58 AM
Personally, I think Cristo's just stupid, ignorant and vindictive, but not working on the other side per say
. It would Jive with Eb's proclamation stupid is everywhere everyday.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 15, 2018, 04:17:33 AM
It's possible, but even so, as long as Eb and Harry think he's a mole, he's not getting on the Grey Council.  Or hell, as long as they think he's stupid and ignorant.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Ananda on September 15, 2018, 09:39:14 AM
The Merlin being a member would require things such that literally everything we've ever heard anyone say about it would be a lie.  And while Harry might not know everyone, Eb probably does, because someone's got to be able to organize things, and he's said jackall when the subject came up.
Well, it is my opinion, after all. Also, it would not require “literally” everything we’ve heard about the merlin to be a “lie.”  I heard he was the merlin. I also heard he was a man. I also heard, et cetera. Apply some of that expertise on idioms you have and you will quickly find that 1: you actually know very little about the man and, b: it’s a first person pov story where the narrator is unreliable, prone to personal bias, and knows very little of the larger picture by necessity for the story surprises to work.

Also, no one ever said Eb was the leader, if I remember correctly. He said that he and a few people he trusts are doing something. Even if he were a defacto leader, this doesn’t negate the possibility of the merlin being a string puller, covert member, or open member. The only thing we actually know is that Dresden doesn’t know who most of them are. That said, it’s still, like, my opinion, man (big lebowski reference). I don’t feel strongly about it.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: zetadog on September 15, 2018, 10:10:24 AM
they should all be wizards or scions that are hundreds of years old.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: raidem on September 15, 2018, 02:15:07 PM
I think Bigfoot is a member too.

Strength of a River in His Shoulders.
I like Steed as being a member.  His forte is time magic and Vadderung is a member so I think it might be likely that Vadderung is looking over his shoulder.  Steed also wouldn't be defending a gate at Edinburgh by himself if he didn't have serious warden skills himself.

I sorta like the idea that the Merlin isn't a member of the Grey Council.  He had his plan to take out the Reds and it failed, but somewhat sorta relied on antagonizing Harry just in case his plans failed.  I think the Merlin knows what Harry is (a destroyer) and reckons that if his plans fails at least Harry will destroy something.  So, I can see Merlin using Harry as his Ace even if Merlin isn't all that much of a participant in, or knowledgeable of the plan.



Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 15, 2018, 03:02:29 PM
Well, it is my opinion, after all. Also, it would not require “literally” everything we’ve heard about the merlin to be a “lie.”  I heard he was the merlin. I also heard he was a man. I also heard, et cetera. Apply some of that expertise on idioms you have and you will quickly find that 1: you actually know very little about the man and, b: it’s a first person pov story where the narrator is unreliable, prone to personal bias, and knows very little of the larger picture by necessity for the story surprises to work.
Luckily, I didn't actually say it would require everything we heard about the Merlin to be a lie.  I said everything we heard anyone say about it being a lie, "It" in this case being the subject of the Merlin and the Grey Council.  Which is universally that he'd disapprove, with zero mention of his support of the existence of one.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: groinkick on September 15, 2018, 08:56:10 PM
I disagree with the Merlin being on the Grey Council because I think he has such devout faith in the White Council that to even suggest such a thing would be blasphemy, and anyone involved get their head's chopped off.

Also Jim has said that there are those on the White Council who are afraid of Harry, and even considered having him killed... But being a Knight of Mab makes them afraid to do so.  Merlin I believe is one of those people that see's Harry as a violator of the Laws of magic, defiant towards the Council, arrogant, unpredictable, violent, immature, and powerful enough to do real damage.

I don't think that he hates Harry, but I think he see's the potential for him to be another kemmler, and having witnessed the destruction first hand is concerned about him.  Harry being part of some sort of shadow council would only validate his fears.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Mira on September 16, 2018, 01:24:54 AM
I disagree with the Merlin being on the Grey Council because I think he has such devout faith in the White Council that to even suggest such a thing would be blasphemy, and anyone involved get their head's shopped off.

Also Jim has said that there are those on the White Council who are afraid of Harry, and even considered having him killed... But being a Knight of Mab makes them afraid to do so.  Merlin I believe is one of those people that see's Harry as a violator of the Laws of magic, defiant towards the Council, arrogant, unpredictable, violent, immature, and powerful enough to do real damage.

I don't think that he hates Harry, but I think he see's the potential for him to be another kemmler, and having witnessed the destruction first hand is concerned about him.  Harry being part of some sort of shadow council would only validate his fears.

The Merlin sees Harry as a useful tool,  kind of a "mission impossible"  type person...  More so than even Eb, who is more of a "James Bond."  I mean Eb has license to kill,  but because of his rep, the Merlin can disavow Harry if he sends him off to do whatever for him and it goes wrong..
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: groinkick on September 16, 2018, 03:00:34 AM
The Merlin sees Harry as a useful tool,  kind of a "mission impossible"  type person...  More so than even Eb, who is more of a "James Bond."  I mean Eb has license to kill,  but because of his rep, the Merlin can disavow Harry if he sends him off to do whatever for him and it goes wrong..

Maybe?  Up to this point I don't think he's had Harry do anything though.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 16, 2018, 04:09:29 AM
The theory is that by flat out telling Harry not to do something, what he really wanted was for Harry to do that exact opposite thing.

And possibly that when he was talking about having a plan to kill the Red Court root and branch, what that plan was "Just assume you'll eradicate them somehow, entirely on your own."  Though that second part is a less common theory.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: groinkick on September 16, 2018, 04:49:40 AM
The theory is that by flat out telling Harry not to do something, what he really wanted was for Harry to do that exact opposite thing.

And possibly that when he was talking about having a plan to kill the Red Court root and branch, what that plan was "Just assume you'll eradicate them somehow, entirely on your own."  Though that second part is a less common theory.

Well....  If Merlin and the others did plan to destroy the Red Court as described...  It means that they were able to manipulate the Red Court into setting up the Blood line curse, made sure it was Harry's daughter taken, and pointed Harry in the direction.

This does make some sense when I think about it but it means the Council set Harry up by making sure the Reds got his daughter, and had the idea of a Bloodline curse, and the Council is complicit in the sacrificial deaths of thousands.  If Harry finds out there's going to be some hell to pay.  It also means that those responsible are real chess masters...  Sounds more like Odin, or Mab or possibly the Mothers.  I could see someone like Merlin having access to them considering his power, and position. 
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Avernite on September 16, 2018, 11:50:20 AM
Well....  If Merlin and the others did plan to destroy the Red Court as described...  It means that they were able to manipulate the Red Court into setting up the Blood line curse, made sure it was Harry's daughter taken, and pointed Harry in the direction.

This does make some sense when I think about it but it means the Council set Harry up by making sure the Reds got his daughter, and had the idea of a Bloodline curse, and the Council is complicit in the sacrificial deaths of thousands.  If Harry finds out there's going to be some hell to pay.  It also means that those responsible are real chess masters...  Sounds more like Odin, or Mab or possibly the Mothers.  I could see someone like Merlin having access to them considering his power, and position.

It is a bit of a conundrum; the known White Council could never have won the war with the Reds in the way the Merlin hinted, and the known White Council could not arrange things so that Harry had his opportunity. So either the Merlin was lying through his teeth (he ain't Fae, so who knows), or there are unknown depths to his power and influence.

Though IF he was behind the plotting, I think it far more likely he traded in favours. 'Dear Odin, dear Mab, remember you owe me for XYZ? If you can set it up so there's a weapon primed to wipe out the Red Court I will consider that debt forgiven'. But then in more fluttery diplomatic language. Never mind that in that case, the Merlin obviously didn't want Harry pulling it off.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: morriswalters on September 16, 2018, 03:19:04 PM
Or Cowl is Langtry and the purpose of the Bloodline curse was to kill Ebeneezer and Harry.  Leaving him free to use the Dark Hallow to become a god at which point, the Reds would have been toast and the White Council would become neutered.  The Black Council then becomes the new White Council.  With Langtry as God King. Improbable but fun to think about. I assume JB will reveal the plot eventually.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Snark Knight on September 16, 2018, 04:07:17 PM
It is a bit of a conundrum; the known White Council could never have won the war with the Reds in the way the Merlin hinted, and the known White Council could not arrange things so that Harry had his opportunity.

Langtry might have been planning to use some other supernatural WMD, but Ariana beat him to the punch with the bioweapon than disabled most of the Edinburgh complex during Changes.


Maybe?  Up to this point I don't think he's had Harry do anything though.

Well, there was the "try to clear Morgan, but you're on your own if you can't bring in hard evidence" bit. But Harry sort of put himself forward for that anyway.


Or Cowl is Langtry and the purpose of the Bloodline curse was to kill Ebeneezer and Harry.  Leaving him free to use the Dark Hallow to become a god at which point, the Reds would have been toast and the White Council would become neutered.  The Black Council then becomes the new White Council.  With Langtry as God King. Improbable but fun to think about. I assume JB will reveal the plot eventually.

The scene where Cowl and Harry fought outside Bock's over the Erlking book is pretty important to evaluating the Cowl-as-Langtry theory. Specifically, where Cowl says he was curious to see how Harry actually stacked up in a fight, and what the Wardens were so nervous about. It could work - Langtry would certainly have access to the Warden files on Harry, but hasn't seen him directly do much.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: groinkick on September 16, 2018, 07:09:32 PM
The scene where Cowl and Harry fought outside Bock's over the Erlking book is pretty important to evaluating the Cowl-as-Langtry theory. Specifically, where Cowl says he was curious to see how Harry actually stacked up in a fight, and what the Wardens were so nervous about. It could work - Langtry would certainly have access to the Warden files on Harry, but hasn't seen him directly do much.

Yeah but Jim said that anyone on the Council would mop the floor with Harry.  Langtry also appears to be very good at mind magic...  I think he'd have assaulted Harry's mind to test him rather using kinetic force.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Yuillegan on September 16, 2018, 09:06:07 PM
Yeah but Jim said that anyone on the Council would mop the floor with Harry.  Langtry also appears to be very good at mind magic...  I think he'd have assaulted Harry's mind to test him rather using kinetic force.

I specifically believe he was referring to Senior Council at that time. Of the thousand plus wizard in sheer might, even before he became the Winter Knight, Harry always saw himself in the top 30-40 strongest. Which is not to say most capable fighters or most powerful wizards. Even though I suspect he has had a pretty meteoric rise in combat ability over the series. Jim has even gone back and said not every wizard, not even most wizards are suited to combat. That was why there was only 200 wardens in a thousand plus group. And of the senior council only Simon (dead), Eb (who replaced him, and is also the Blackstaff and was captain of the wardens), Langtry (the Merlin), Rashid (the Gatekeeper), Listens-to-Wind and Cristos are fighters and skilled in Evocation. Martha Liberty, Aleron Lafortier (dead), Ancient Mai are all considered to have talents that do not lend themselves to direct combat. Though I acknowledge Liberty is an unknown quantity here, all we really know is she is good at veils.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: groinkick on September 17, 2018, 02:16:45 AM
I specifically believe he was referring to Senior Council at that time.

Yeah that's what I meant.  Harry would trash most wizards.  It's just the few at the very top that would crush him.  Harry is a top level player but what he lacks is experience.  They have centuries on him in that department.  Harry is like in his 40's?  I think that if he were say 90 - 100 he'd be able to probably take any of them.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Con on September 17, 2018, 07:19:41 AM
WOJ is that Harry is to Morgan what Morgan is to Ebenezar. So Ebenezar is three times more powerful and experience then Harry.

[img]
Harry does not have Morgan's experience or expertise in a fight.  It doesn't mean that Harry isn't also an effective and dangerous opponent, but he has a completely different approach--and he generally has a lot more to learn, still, before he is as formidable as someone like Morgan.

Granted, Ebenezar makes /Morgan/ look like Harry.  But hey. :)  There's always someone bigger or better than you, right?[/quote]
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 17, 2018, 03:04:36 PM
Keep in mind that Harry is one of the most powerful wizards.

But Rashid is the most dangerous wizard on the Senior Council, but not the most powerful.  Harry may have more raw power than them, but not necessarily be able to take them out.  Like Groinkick says, experience and skill still count for a lot.  So while he may have more juice than Ancient Mai, or LtW, or whatever, that doesn't mean he can beat them.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: phi1601 on September 17, 2018, 06:36:17 PM
An interesting one is Montjoy. He was mentioned in Summer Knight as one of the candidates for Senior Council nominations but was unavailable because he was "on a research trip in the Yucatán," according to Martha Liberty.

The reason I find this interesting is because:
1. He's strong (or old) enough to be considered for a senior council position. So he potentially has the power level for Grey Council.
2. Martha Liberty was the one who knew where he was. She's an ally of Eb so I'd say that puts Montjoy in the Eb/Martha/Indunjoe faction.
3. He was in the Yucatan. Know what else is in Yucatan? Chichen Itza. Sounds like he was doing some research into the red court.

If he is in the Grey council, I don't know that being named in passing a single time in the series is enough to be considered by Jim in the list of 6 that we "already know".

So he might be one of 4 we haven't met instead.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: groinkick on September 17, 2018, 06:38:08 PM
It is a bit of a conundrum; the known White Council could never have won the war with the Reds in the way the Merlin hinted

I wouldn't be so sure.  In a video someone said words to that effect and Jim said "The White Council has never lost, which is why they are still around" or something like that.

I think the Council could do what is described.  They could do a curse just like the Reds were planning.  However instead of powering it via human sacrifice my guess is the Council would subdue some powerful thing, Dragon, Deity, ect to power the curse.  The reason they didn't do it right away is because there is obviously going to be some sort of backlash that will happen from doing such a thing.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Mira on September 17, 2018, 07:24:03 PM
The theory is that by flat out telling Harry not to do something, what he really wanted was for Harry to do that exact opposite thing.

And possibly that when he was talking about having a plan to kill the Red Court root and branch, what that plan was "Just assume you'll eradicate them somehow, entirely on your own."  Though that second part is a less common theory.

Exactly and if he failed,  the Merlin would say he never suggested anything like that to Harry, least a new war between the Red Court and the White Council start all over again... Very "Mission Impossible." 
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 17, 2018, 07:56:35 PM
And this theory is much more reasonable than the idea that Merlin had his own plan in place and was worried that Harry "Wrench in the gears" Dresden would fuck it all up by going of on his own.  Like he did when he stared the war in the first place.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Mira on September 17, 2018, 08:49:11 PM
And this theory is much more reasonable than the idea that Merlin had his own plan in place and was worried that Harry "Wrench in the gears" Dresden would fuck it all up by going of on his own.  Like he did when he stared the war in the first place.

   Which is exactly the excuse he'd use....  It's not the Merlin's fault that the Red Court decided to kidnap Harry's little girl with the idea of sacrificing her.  The should have known that Harry is a very emotional man and would lash out consequences be damned, the White Council cannot in any way be held responsible for that....  Oh, he'd be very diplomatic about it too, and if the Red Court wanted Harry's balls in payment, he'd go along with that as well...
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 17, 2018, 09:07:37 PM
Then why did he flat out tell Harry not to do it, vs... nothing at all, since that's what Harry was going to do anyways?  Was Harry going to try super hard to kill them just because Merlin said not to, and only slightly hard otherwise?
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Mira on September 18, 2018, 05:45:40 AM
Then why did he flat out tell Harry not to do it, vs... nothing at all, since that's what Harry was going to do anyways?  Was Harry going to try super hard to kill them just because Merlin said not to, and only slightly hard otherwise?

  He suggested, he suggested in such a way that conveyed an understanding to Harry that this is what needed to be done...  Kind of like when King Henry made the suggestion, "would someone rid him of this meddlesome priest.."
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: groinkick on September 18, 2018, 05:54:36 AM
If Merlin was involved it would be more easily proven if other avenues to victory could be shown since he's  always got backup plans.  So if Harry had failed, what was the other avenues to victory? 
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: morriswalters on September 18, 2018, 10:25:15 AM
Assuming that Langtry was honest in his desire to exterminate the Reds, it may have been simply an indication that he was through playing defense and was going to go on the offensive.  He would have needed a clear betrayal of the peace process to bring the Council to a state of total war.  In at least a few ways this follows the outlines of the US entry into WW2. Roosevelt wanted war, but needed a casus belli in terms of an event like Pearl Harbor. And the illness released on the Council by Ariana could have been it.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on September 19, 2018, 12:41:09 PM
Then why did he flat out tell Harry not to do it, vs... nothing at all, since that's what Harry was going to do anyways?  Was Harry going to try super hard to kill them just because Merlin said not to, and only slightly hard otherwise?
Plausible deniability. The ability to forswear upon thy power to the effect of,
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: raidem on September 20, 2018, 04:49:12 PM
Eb didn't know exactly what the plan was for the Grey Council in fighting the Reds. The Grey Council had a different mission in mind before Harry informed Eb that it was Harry's daughter they were sacrificing.  I highly doubt Merlin knew that the Grey Council would follow Harry to CI. I favor the idea that there were multiple plans to defeat the Reds, root and branch and some of these plans failed.  Harry succeeded.


This follows the Merlin's multi-tiered strategy of approaching problems.

This all said, the Merlin has access to lots more information than Eb does, I'd say.  I still think the battle of CI was one in which both sides had ample foresight to go toe to toe against each other, and it became a slug fest. Obviously, Vadderung had the edge.  We just don't know how much advantage he gave the winning side in that.  It is said per WOJ that
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Kindler on September 20, 2018, 05:30:39 PM
Merlin's "root and branch" declaration to Harry included some references to preparing for the largest counteroffensive they had ever attempted. My take on it was that Merlin was waiting for the Reds to take their swing, and be ready for it. Once they had committed enough resources to it (like, for example, gathering a huge chunk of the Red Court's nobility all in one place at Chichen Itza), they'd foil the attack, then counter with everything they had. I assume it was a military operation.

That got shut down when half the Wardens were out of commission. They were expecting an attack, not an infiltration (seems odd after Peabody not to be hypervigilant when it comes to sabotage, which is what the illness felt like). Then Cristos took further advantage of the chaos (which I presume he created) and locked up most of the younger wardens.

Half a day later, the Red Court was dead, so... problem solved. Now just to deal with those mythological rejects suddenly and coincidentally crawling up out of the sea...

An interesting one is Montjoy. He was mentioned in Summer Knight as one of the candidates for Senior Council nominations but was unavailable because he was "on a research trip in the Yucatán," according to Martha Liberty.

The reason I find this interesting is because:
1. He's strong (or old) enough to be considered for a senior council position. So he potentially has the power level for Grey Council.
2. Martha Liberty was the one who knew where he was. She's an ally of Eb so I'd say that puts Montjoy in the Eb/Martha/Indunjoe faction.
3. He was in the Yucatan. Know what else is in Yucatan? Chichen Itza. Sounds like he was doing some research into the red court.

If he is in the Grey council, I don't know that being named in passing a single time in the series is enough to be considered by Jim in the list of 6 that we "already know".

So he might be one of 4 we haven't met instead.

I've been chewing on the audiobooks this time around during my commute, and I picked up on that for the first time as I listened to Summer Knight. I peg him as either Grey Council or one of the traitors who had given away Archangel—he was either spying or informing (I think, anyway).
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: raidem on September 21, 2018, 01:56:20 PM
Yeah.  I caught the Montjoy Yucatan, Chichen Itza connection before.  I didn't know all of what to make of it.  But I think it likely he was scouting out the Reds.

I didn't think much to include him in the Grey Council but now that you mention it, it sounds very reasonable.  That said, I sorta wondered what Peabody or whoever did with that tidbit of knowledge that Montjoy was scouting out the Reds.  I, paranoid me, was thinking that someone would conspire against him, or try to turn him.  Who knows though.


It could be that when Martha Liberty gave that information, Nemesis, Peabody, Black Council, Reds or whoever acted against him in some way to turn him.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Gman on September 25, 2018, 09:20:22 AM
We know Odin, Harry and Eb are members. The Gatekeeper and Martha Liberty are very likely members. Carlos, Steed and Lea may be members. I doubt The Merlin is a member.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 25, 2018, 02:18:24 PM
I think the Merlin and his strict adherence to White Council methods is part of the problem and that he is not part of the Grey Council solution.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 25, 2018, 03:37:36 PM
We know Odin, Harry and Eb are members. The Gatekeeper and Martha Liberty are very likely members. Carlos, Steed and Lea may be members. I doubt The Merlin is a member.
Lea is not a member because when Harry was counting them, he didn't include her in the numbers.  12 people showed up, plus Harry that makes the full 13.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: alllawyersarewizards on September 27, 2018, 04:12:31 AM
My picks are:
Martha Liberty
The Erlking or Eldest Gruff
Maybe Wild Bill Meyers but he seems a bit young
Mavra.  She thwarts Cowl’s efforts to get the Word of Kemmler and had had it for years, yet never attempted the Darkhallow.  She teaches Bianca sorcery, yes, but she also probably helped coax Bianca into starting the War that ultimately wiped out the Reds. Plus, she may have been behind the poisoning of Susan, thus bringing about the birth of Maggie and the plan to use the Blood Curse.  Plus she was conspicuously absent from her own lair when Harry raided it, perhaps because she got a tip from her old friend McCoy? She’s playing the long game to eliminate her rivals.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Alaran on September 27, 2018, 06:37:47 PM
In Turn Coat Ebenezar sais that they are "Some wizards. Some key allies." Now Vadderung definitively fits the key ally box. But he uses plural, so there is at least one more. We also know from Changes that they all have wizard staves. There is only one that we have seen that can be considered a key ally and that has a staff, and that is Eldest Gruff.

On the wizard side we have a clue to the identity of one of the wizards in the grey council. During the battle in changes, Harry hear someone yell "Fuego". Most of the older wizards don't verbal out their spells. We can then assume that this is one of the less experienced of the members of the grey council. Have we seen anyone that fits so far?

Otherwise Martha Liberty is one that seems to be a obvious choice. Chandler is a good possibility, but could be wrong as he is most often seen without a wizard staff.
Klaus the Toymaker was established as an ally of Ebenezar in Summer Knight and seems JB has thought of a lot of backstory for him. I peg him as a member too.

So 3 of 6 so far. Listen-to-Wind was out of commision. Luccio is possible, but we've never seen any indication that Ebenezer trusts her like that. Ancient Mai and Langtry are unlikely, they both seem to believe too much in the institution of the white council.

Rashid I think is more likely, since Ebenezar changed his mind about him after talking to Harry in Turn Coat.
I also like Montjoy for the Grey Council.

Now, i have no idea about the last one. Wild Bill and Carlos seem too inexperienced to be trusted fully. Also don't think Carlos uses a staff. I would peg Chandler over Luccio if I had to pick one of the previous of the unlikely choices.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 27, 2018, 10:41:33 PM
On the wizard side we have a clue to the identity of one of the wizards in the grey council. During the battle in changes, Harry hear someone yell "Fuego". Most of the older wizards don't verbal out their spells. We can then assume that this is one of the less experienced of the members of the grey council. Have we seen anyone that fits so far?
Or it's one of the many Spanish speakers in Mexico telling other Spanish speakers to fire their guns.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Alaran on September 27, 2018, 11:38:41 PM
Or it's one of the many Spanish speakers in Mexico telling other Spanish speakers to fire their guns.
Ah, you're probably right. Then it might be a mistake from JB. Since as far as I know, Fuego isn't used in the same way as in English. They use Disparar, though if any spanish speakers could verify this?
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: peregrine on September 27, 2018, 11:45:00 PM
I was wondering, if it's anything like English, it could go either way.  "Firearm" translates to "Arma de la Fuego" so the word is used in context with weapons as well.
Title: Re: Who are the members of the Grey Council?
Post by: Con on September 28, 2018, 07:02:02 AM
I assumed the Feugo was for the mercenaries firing their guns.