Author Topic: Saints  (Read 15045 times)

Offline raidem

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Re: Saints
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2018, 02:22:07 AM »
And I wonder if the gatekeeper uses faith magic as Jim said someone on the senior council uses it.  Or maybe Martha liberty.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Saints
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2018, 04:04:01 AM »
How do we know that he isn't.  I think Jim described it as a wizard using faith magic.

Well the main reason to me is he hasn't shown any form of magic or even faith magic.  Can you recall a single time he did anything that a normal person couldn't do?  If he is a wizard he's not a member of the Council.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Saints
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2018, 07:47:55 AM »
Well the main reason to me is he hasn't shown any form of magic or even faith magic.  Can you recall a single time he did anything that a normal person couldn't do?  If he is a wizard he's not a member of the Council.
The inevitable question here is, is Saint equal to Practitioner, or Wizard? Cause what about say, Charity praying and using magic by incidence more than design, Or Tilly Wishing a guy would just confess to a horrid crime maybe?
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Offline Fcrate

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Re: Saints
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2018, 09:24:58 AM »
As I said, my money is on Liberty.
And I do wonder if Charity is pressed enough she'd take up magic again. Combined with her deep faith it'd make her a saint, at least. If she knew enough to try, anyway.
هل أخذت الغاب مثلي منزلاً دون القصور
فتتبعت السواقي وتسلقت الصخور
هل تحممت بعطره وتنشفت بنور
وشربت الفجر خمراً من كؤوس من أثير

Offline Quantus

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Re: Saints
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2018, 11:55:46 AM »
Hasn't really shown anything like that.  He isn't a wizard which Jim said the Saints are wizards.
Wizards or sorcereres, which opens up a substantially larger pool of lesser teir talents. That being said I do not think Father Forthill has any "Magic" beyond his being a Holy man that can sense the Soul, etc.  Mostly because he'd be using it if he could, he's well entrenched in the factions of the Church that would have the knowledge and resources to train him in a religion school of magic. 

The inevitable question here is, is Saint equal to Practitioner, or Wizard? Cause what about say, Charity praying and using magic by incidence more than design, Or Tilly Wishing a guy would just confess to a horrid crime maybe?
Jim said " a wizard's or sorcerer's talents".  This makes me think Saint is not about relative Power level or breadth of knowledge, it's more about the "blended faith magic with their natural abilities" part to accomplish some amazing things.  So there can likely be a pretty broad base of people, some Faith-sorcerers who have a single trick (Lay On Hand or something?) and others that are more studious and so have the knowledge to apply it more broadly.  Purely summoning Faith energy into a religious artifact would not itself count if only because that would make literally every wiccan with a shrine in her home one, making most of the Ordo Saints by default, not to mention Susan back in GP when she barely believed.  I'd place it somewhere around the same line as people with misc magic quirks and talents vs somebody that has learned to harness sorcerer levels.  If the Alpha's were religious, they might be the bottom rung with a single faith-Trick.  There'd still have to be the hack-level users like Thomas describes himself with magic.  For a Saint I think you have to actually straddle the line more, you have to have BOTH a strong faith and reasonably strong magic, and you have to have learned in a school/environment that specifically blended the two as I expect was far more common back in the day with shamanistic practices, competing polytheistic temples, etc.


The only thing i recall of Harry and faith is his commentary in Grave Peril.
There's one in Storm Front when he first met Bianca:


Quote from: StF Ch 9
Second, he'd passed me on with my pentacle still upon my neck. He probably figured that since it wasn't a crucifix or a cross, that I couldn't use it to keep Bianca away from me.

Which wasn't true. Vampires (and other such creatures) don't respond to symbols as such. They respond to the power that accompanies an act of faith. I couldn't ward off a vampire mosquito with my faith in the Almighty-He and I have just never seemed to connect. But the pentacle was a symbol of magic itself, and I had plenty of faith in that.

[...]

 The pentacle began to burn with the cold, clear light of applied will and belief-my faith, if you will, that it could turn such a monster aside.
<(o)> <(o)>
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Saints
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2018, 07:59:02 PM »
I always found the pentacle-comet display at the end of Fool Moon was similar to faith magic in a few regards. The way he describes it sounds awfully like faith, too. Though it's notable that he mentions Hope and Love in his description, but explicitly not faith.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Saints
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2018, 09:41:27 PM »
I always found the pentacle-comet display at the end of Fool Moon was similar to faith magic in a few regards. The way he describes it sounds awfully like faith, too. Though it's notable that he mentions Hope and Love in his description, but explicitly not faith.
That's the thing with the louper: It was more about the silver's inherited nature, though he was able to imbue it with energy by sort of making a casting Circle.  I do think there was a certain amount of harry's sort of Faith-In-Magic Faith magic there as well, but it seemed more incidental.  Im not sure how much of the light show he put in there was actually needed for that attack, though equally Im not sure it isnt. 
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Saints
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2018, 03:20:35 PM »
That's the thing with the louper: It was more about the silver's inherited nature, though he was able to imbue it with energy by sort of making a casting Circle.  I do think there was a certain amount of harry's sort of Faith-In-Magic Faith magic there as well, but it seemed more incidental.  Im not sure how much of the light show he put in there was actually needed for that attack, though equally Im not sure it isnt.

Yeah; he was running on empty, without even any fumes. Hexing a security camera almost knocked him out, and he can normally do that without trying.

He does cast a spell; good ol' Ventas Servitas, and the passage describes the process of pulling out the last spark of magic he had left as finding the core of what he believed in. Seems quasi-faith-y to me, and the light show is precisely the kind of light that shows up when he uses it as a faith symbol in Grave Peril, not the normal blueish light (as I recall) he uses when he needs to see.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Saints
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2018, 03:57:28 PM »
In blood rites Harry used his pentacle as a holy symbol against the black court and it worked.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Saints
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2018, 07:50:01 PM »
In blood rites Harry used his pentacle as a holy symbol against the black court and it worked.
Right.  So does Charity and I think Susan too.  Sainthood takes more than that though, it takes actual magic being blended with Faith. 

the light show is precisely the kind of light that shows up when he uses it as a faith symbol in Grave Peril, not the normal blueish light (as I recall) he uses when he needs to see.
What passage are you looking at in GP?  The one I found was Blue there too.  That I recall it's always somewhere on the spectrum from Blue up to a more blinding white (though that might have only been Charity, not Harry)
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Saints
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2018, 07:54:30 PM »
Sainthood takes more than that though, it takes actual magic being blended with Faith. 

Could be wrong but I think it was just being pointed out that Faith based magic/Saints might not require you to be Christian.  It just requires devout faith in something + a wizard.  Harry has faith in magic but I wouldn't call it devout.  If Michael was a full on wizard he'd be a Saint I think because he is very devout.  I also would say that in my opinion a Saint would be using Creation based magic (not corrupted by dark magic).  In other words I don't think a wizard who's devout to the old gods, or a dark god could be a Saint.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 07:56:47 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Saints
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2018, 08:14:50 PM »
Could be wrong but I think it was just being pointed out that Faith based magic/Saints might not require you to be Christian.  It just requires devout faith in something + a wizard.  Harry has faith in magic but I wouldn't call it devout.
Oh, sorry I was taking that point for granted.  The Religion of choice does not matter, but actual Faith does.  Harry can get wizard light out of his Faith in Magic, but for his magic to actually start Blending Faith Energy into it's workings outside of a religion (or other Faith, regardless of structure) I think harry's "faith" would have to reach higher levels of fanaticism. 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 11:47:57 AM by Quantus »
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      (o o)
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Offline Fcrate

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Re: Saints
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2018, 11:56:20 PM »
Two words for groinkick: Dark Saints.
Heh.
هل أخذت الغاب مثلي منزلاً دون القصور
فتتبعت السواقي وتسلقت الصخور
هل تحممت بعطره وتنشفت بنور
وشربت الفجر خمراً من كؤوس من أثير

Offline Arjan

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Re: Saints
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2018, 04:09:21 AM »
Could be wrong but I think it was just being pointed out that Faith based magic/Saints might not require you to be Christian.  It just requires devout faith in something + a wizard.  Harry has faith in magic but I wouldn't call it devout.  If Michael was a full on wizard he'd be a Saint I think because he is very devout.  I also would say that in my opinion a Saint would be using Creation based magic (not corrupted by dark magic).  In other words I don't think a wizard who's devout to the old gods, or a dark god could be a Saint.
A dark god most likely not but..

And why could a wizard devout to the old gods not use creation magic? The skinwalkers words to Harry about his creation magic suggests otherwise. You might need a creator god but there were more of those.
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Offline knnn

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Re: Saints
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2018, 11:53:27 AM »
Two things:

1) Personally, Rashid was my go-to with his "Blood of the Prophet" statement.

2) This quote possibly takes on new meaning:

Quote from: Small Favor
I bit out a little laugh. “Yeah. You’re a saint.”

“One day,” Nicodemus said. “One day. But for now, let’s say a face to face meeting. A talk. Just you and I.”


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