Reddit AMA 2018
What is a Saint?
2) I've got an outline for three, six, or nine books depending on how folks are liking it. :) 3) Saints, for practical purposes in the Dresden Files, distinct from straightforward religious figures, were mainly people with a wizard's or sorcerer's talents who went into the Church and who blended faith magic with their natural abilities to accomplish some amazing things. Most of the Catholic saints were members of the White Council as well. As the power of the Church waned, the word Saint kind of gradually turned to saint, and in the current storyline saints are simply people who blend faith with their magic.
It is Frowned Upon to be a practicing saint in the White Council, in some senses. They much prefer minds uncluttered by what they see as unnecessary folderol, and think that the worst thing they could imagine is a blend of a wizard's power with a fanatic's zeal, so if you're a saint it's not hard to make other wizards uneasy. Most saints keep their practice under discrete wraps, though there is at least one practicing saint on the Senior Council.
My guess is...... hmmm You know I don't like him but Langtry maybe? Or LtW.... Or Gatekeeper... lol... Really narrowed it down there.My first guess was LTW, keying off his comments about what Mother and Father were talking about just before he kicked Shaggy's butt to his ears. But in that scene he very specifically did not argue the point when Shaggy said he was not a Holy Man.
My first guess was LTW, keying off his comments about what Mother and Father were talking about just before he kicked Shaggy's butt to his ears. But in that scene he very specifically did not argue the point when Shaggy said he was not a Holy Man.
As a sinister twist: Cristos, as a Saint and Zealot of a Dark Old God...
Huh. That's interesting. It'd be weird if we saw some saint magic on screen. Maybe a wizard focusing his magic using faith. If not in something religious, maybe he could his faith in magic itself...
Harry has done that. The fact that Saint's are frowned upon because of their religious beliefs sounds like it is of the spiritual variety rather than just some faith in magic.Did he? He has used faith magic, yes, but he didn't combine it with his normal magic that I remember.
Huh. That's interesting. It'd be weird if we saw some saint magic on screen. Maybe a wizard focusing his magic using faith. If not in something religious, maybe he could his faith in magic itself...
It's hard to believe that a Saint would be influenced by the ink. You'd think that a Saint, if they were that powerful and possibly in communication with angels like Michael apparently does, would either be immune, or would be told what was happening.
That makes me think it's Rashid, who never seemed to be influenced. Not to mention all the other things that everyone else mentioned.
Rashid wasn't influenced because he wasn't there. In Steed's words: He's he only other wizard here that we see less than you.Islam has Saints, too. They're called Wali.
Besides, I doubt his religious beliefs can accommodate saints.
Not really. Wali means a loyal to -in this context- God pious man, anyone can be a Wali, but it's not any sort of official position, immunity or power.
While some may equate a Wali to a saint, they're not the same.
Not really. Wali means a loyal to -in this context- God pious man, anyone can be a Wali, but it's not any sort of official position, immunity or power.According to Wikipedia (my source on the subject, so forgive my ignorance if I'm misunderstanding) Wali are Islamic saints, which "In the traditional Islamic understanding of saints, the saint is portrayed as someone "marked by [special] divine favor ... [and] holiness", and who is specifically "chosen by God and endowed with exceptional gifts, such as the ability to work miracles"."
While some may equate a Wali to a saint, they're not the same.
According to Wikipedia (my source on the subject, so forgive my ignorance if I'm misunderstanding) Wali are Islamic saints, which "In the traditional Islamic understanding of saints, the saint is portrayed as someone "marked by [special] divine favor ... [and] holiness", and who is specifically "chosen by God and endowed with exceptional gifts, such as the ability to work miracles"."That's fine, it's a common misconception even among the Muslims. Mostly only superstitious folks actually believe in that. Maybe the Sofi's too. As per book, there's no such thing as a saint/special powers, and miracles can only be performed by God. Now, a true believer can ask God's help, pray for it, even demand it, and it will come, it doesn't make it a miracle.
Well this is the Dresdenverse. Jim pretty much laid out what a Saint was. A wizard who also happens to have devout faith. Didn't say the person needs to be a Christian. Just like a KoTC that is an Atheist or Jewish.Now that makes sense :D
Did he? He has used faith magic, yes, but he didn't combine it with his normal magic that I remember.In FM it was his faith IN magic that let him conjure more of it then he had. He's a Magic Saint, or has the potential to be so.
Well this is the Dresdenverse. Jim pretty much laid out what a Saint was. A wizard who also happens to have devout faith. Didn't say the person needs to be a Christian. Just like a KoTC that is an Atheist or Jewish.
He charged up his pentacle necklace with his faith before he slung it at the Loup.Faith? I didn't get that vibe, I just thought he used the amulet to create a circle in the air, focused all what's left of his magic in it, and used a simple air spell to propel it toward the loup garou, just like gunpowder. The inherited silver did the work.
Which was sorta what I was getting at, that under a suitably tortured reading, Harry could count.
The silver pentagram within the circle was the symbol of my faith, if that’s what you wanted to call it, in magic.
I wonder if Father Forthill is a Saint.
How do we know that he isn't. I think Jim described it as a wizard using faith magic.
Well the main reason to me is he hasn't shown any form of magic or even faith magic. Can you recall a single time he did anything that a normal person couldn't do? If he is a wizard he's not a member of the Council.The inevitable question here is, is Saint equal to Practitioner, or Wizard? Cause what about say, Charity praying and using magic by incidence more than design, Or Tilly Wishing a guy would just confess to a horrid crime maybe?
Hasn't really shown anything like that. He isn't a wizard which Jim said the Saints are wizards.Wizards or sorcereres, which opens up a substantially larger pool of lesser teir talents. That being said I do not think Father Forthill has any "Magic" beyond his being a Holy man that can sense the Soul, etc. Mostly because he'd be using it if he could, he's well entrenched in the factions of the Church that would have the knowledge and resources to train him in a religion school of magic.
The inevitable question here is, is Saint equal to Practitioner, or Wizard? Cause what about say, Charity praying and using magic by incidence more than design, Or Tilly Wishing a guy would just confess to a horrid crime maybe?Jim said " a wizard's or sorcerer's talents". This makes me think Saint is not about relative Power level or breadth of knowledge, it's more about the "blended faith magic with their natural abilities" part to accomplish some amazing things. So there can likely be a pretty broad base of people, some Faith-sorcerers who have a single trick (Lay On Hand or something?) and others that are more studious and so have the knowledge to apply it more broadly. Purely summoning Faith energy into a religious artifact would not itself count if only because that would make literally every wiccan with a shrine in her home one, making most of the Ordo Saints by default, not to mention Susan back in GP when she barely believed. I'd place it somewhere around the same line as people with misc magic quirks and talents vs somebody that has learned to harness sorcerer levels. If the Alpha's were religious, they might be the bottom rung with a single faith-Trick. There'd still have to be the hack-level users like Thomas describes himself with magic. For a Saint I think you have to actually straddle the line more, you have to have BOTH a strong faith and reasonably strong magic, and you have to have learned in a school/environment that specifically blended the two as I expect was far more common back in the day with shamanistic practices, competing polytheistic temples, etc.
The only thing i recall of Harry and faith is his commentary in Grave Peril.There's one in Storm Front when he first met Bianca:
Second, he'd passed me on with my pentacle still upon my neck. He probably figured that since it wasn't a crucifix or a cross, that I couldn't use it to keep Bianca away from me.
Which wasn't true. Vampires (and other such creatures) don't respond to symbols as such. They respond to the power that accompanies an act of faith. I couldn't ward off a vampire mosquito with my faith in the Almighty-He and I have just never seemed to connect. But the pentacle was a symbol of magic itself, and I had plenty of faith in that.
[...]
The pentacle began to burn with the cold, clear light of applied will and belief-my faith, if you will, that it could turn such a monster aside.
I always found the pentacle-comet display at the end of Fool Moon was similar to faith magic in a few regards. The way he describes it sounds awfully like faith, too. Though it's notable that he mentions Hope and Love in his description, but explicitly not faith.That's the thing with the louper: It was more about the silver's inherited nature, though he was able to imbue it with energy by sort of making a casting Circle. I do think there was a certain amount of harry's sort of Faith-In-Magic Faith magic there as well, but it seemed more incidental. Im not sure how much of the light show he put in there was actually needed for that attack, though equally Im not sure it isnt.
That's the thing with the louper: It was more about the silver's inherited nature, though he was able to imbue it with energy by sort of making a casting Circle. I do think there was a certain amount of harry's sort of Faith-In-Magic Faith magic there as well, but it seemed more incidental. Im not sure how much of the light show he put in there was actually needed for that attack, though equally Im not sure it isnt.
In blood rites Harry used his pentacle as a holy symbol against the black court and it worked.Right. So does Charity and I think Susan too. Sainthood takes more than that though, it takes actual magic being blended with Faith.
the light show is precisely the kind of light that shows up when he uses it as a faith symbol in Grave Peril, not the normal blueish light (as I recall) he uses when he needs to see.What passage are you looking at in GP? The one I found was Blue there too. That I recall it's always somewhere on the spectrum from Blue up to a more blinding white (though that might have only been Charity, not Harry)
Sainthood takes more than that though, it takes actual magic being blended with Faith.
Could be wrong but I think it was just being pointed out that Faith based magic/Saints might not require you to be Christian. It just requires devout faith in something + a wizard. Harry has faith in magic but I wouldn't call it devout.Oh, sorry I was taking that point for granted. The Religion of choice does not matter, but actual Faith does. Harry can get wizard light out of his Faith in Magic, but for his magic to actually start Blending Faith Energy into it's workings outside of a religion (or other Faith, regardless of structure) I think harry's "faith" would have to reach higher levels of fanaticism.
Could be wrong but I think it was just being pointed out that Faith based magic/Saints might not require you to be Christian. It just requires devout faith in something + a wizard. Harry has faith in magic but I wouldn't call it devout. If Michael was a full on wizard he'd be a Saint I think because he is very devout. I also would say that in my opinion a Saint would be using Creation based magic (not corrupted by dark magic). In other words I don't think a wizard who's devout to the old gods, or a dark god could be a Saint.A dark god most likely not but..
I bit out a little laugh. “Yeah. You’re a saint.”
“One day,” Nicodemus said. “One day. But for now, let’s say a face to face meeting. A talk. Just you and I.”
I also would say that in my opinion a Saint would be using Creation based magic (not corrupted by dark magic). In other words I don't think a wizard who's devout to the old gods, or a dark god could be a Saint.Especially with this new definition of Saint from Jim, I really dont think a Saint is going to be at all restricted to Heaven, Creation, or any of the Abramhic themes. Those will be present and well represented, granted, but they would not be restricted to the Christian world; there will be eastern ones too, and african shaman, and probably a variety of them in South America (pre-changes) where Faith is a more critical survival tool.
What passage are you looking at in GP? The one I found was Blue there too. That I recall it's always somewhere on the spectrum from Blue up to a more blinding white (though that might have only been Charity, not Harry)Was it? I'll take your word for it. I didn't have the book in front of me, but I remembered the light being different in Grave Peril and Fool Moon.
And that's just things that we'd still call the "Good Side", but there are literal "Dark Gods" locked up in Demonreach and they all presumably had worshipers once upon a time, some of which likely also had magic and no other school of thought to provide them with the Control they need.
If nothing else, it makes a lot more sense now how the Loup Garou curse could have been originally a saint's work, when taking away the free will of an entire bloodline worth of hosts to make them into murderous beasts is antithetical to the Almighty's values.Are you sure about that? He has his moments.
What is called a Saint in the Abrahamic traditions might be called a hero in other faiths. The greek heroes might have been practitioners.
Also, a saint might not have been a full-fledged wizard. He might have been more like a one-trick-pony, like Bender, the Alphas or Mort.
If nothing else, it makes a lot more sense now how the Loup Garou curse could have been originally a saint's work, when taking away the free will of an entire bloodline worth of hosts to make them into murderous beasts is antithetical to the Almighty's values.
No... according to Jim they are wizards. you are not a wizard if you are a one trick pony.It was worded quite differently in the quotes above... A sorcerer is pretty much the same category as one trick pony, Look at Aristides too. Saint conveys the method of use, not the quality of ingredients to begin.
We don't know how, or why this happened.. We don't know if it backfired either... It may not have started off as a curse. The original Loup Garou may have had full control of it's faculties and have been an incredible warrior. Who's word do we have about the Loup? Chauncy, a demon. Not exactly the most reliable source.Plus, every 'feeds on bloodline curse we know of, is cast by using the thaumaturgical connection to said family to pull in them as a source of power anyway... So how do we know he didn't contain the beast by binding it to his own blood, curse thereby empowered by said connection too? Perhaps what the Loup was a manifestation of was more dangerous without a stable host? Certainly the Loup was one of the more frighteningly powerful beings we've come across, because it could violate free will without direct repercussion as it was simultaneously Macfinn and the Beast.
Don't forget that God isn't all sunshine and smiles all the time. There is such a thing as Divine Wrath. Cursing a whole bloodline is nothing to killing off all firstborn of an entire nation.
Was it? I'll take your word for it. I didn't have the book in front of me, but I remembered the light being different in Grave Peril and Fool Moon.In GP, he shoots white fire once (early on), channels power into his blasting rod until it glows white (final battle), and has a blue-white light shine several times.
My magic. That was at the heart of me. It was a manifestation of what I believed, what I lived. It came from my desire to see to it that someone stood between the darkness and the people it would devour. It came from my love of a good steak, from the way I would sometimes cry at a good movie or a moving symphony. From my life. From the hope that I could make things better for someone else, if not always for me. Somewhere, in all of that, I touched on something that wasn’t tapped out, in spite of how horrible the past days had been, something that hadn’t gone cold and numb inside of me. I grasped it, held it in my hand like a firefly, and willed its energy out, into the circle I had created with the spinning amulet on the end of its chain. It began to glow, azure-blue like a candle flame. The light spread down the chain and to the amulet, and when it reached it the light became incandescent, the pentacle a brilliant light at the end of the chain, spinning a circle of light around me, trailing motes of dust that fell like starlight to the grass around me.It looks like the pentacle was glowing white, but the chain was blue. So his raw power was blue, but when it hit the symbol of his faith in magic, it turned white. So... Maybe?
...
I kept the amulet whirling, spraying motes of light, the brilliant white pentacle at the end of a leash of blue light.
...
The pentacle flew toward the loup-garou like a comet, incandescent white, and struck the creature’s breast like lightning hammering into an ancient tree. There was a flash of light, too much power unleashed in a flaring of energy as the mystic substance shattered the loup-garou’s invulnerability, carved into it, coursed through it in a blinding blue-white shower of sparks. Blue fire erupted from its chest, its black heart’s blood ignited into blinding flame, and the creature screamed, arching backward in agony.
'Sorry, your time's up' is different from basically mind-raping the poor unfortunates though.It is nothing compared to everlasting torture in hell.
In GP, he shoots white fire once (early on), channels power into his blasting rod until it glows white (final battle), and has a blue-white light shine several times.That whole scene is wrapped up in Thor mythology, 'like a lightning struck oak tree'. I'm predicting Mjolnir was a manifestation of Hope/duty(hence why he couldn't lift it when he wasn't worthy). Charlie Brown has got to try regardless of if Lucy is going to pull the ball out or not...
In FM, the lumination spell was blue-white, and the blasting rod glowed iridescent white another time.
The only significant entry in FM was the spell that took out the Loup.It looks like the pentacle was glowing white, but the chain was blue. So his raw power was blue, but when it hit the symbol of his faith in magic, it turned white. So... Maybe?
In GP, he shoots white fire once (early on), channels power into his blasting rod until it glows white (final battle), and has a blue-white light shine several times.
In FM, the lumination spell was blue-white, and the blasting rod glowed iridescent white another time.
The only significant entry in FM was the spell that took out the Loup.It looks like the pentacle was glowing white, but the chain was blue. So his raw power was blue, but when it hit the symbol of his faith in magic, it turned white. So... Maybe?