Call for help

[Rasins]

What we have are a bunch of clues that may or may not be applicable.

He was born on Halloween.  Is that significant for being a starborn? We don't know.  We do know that is when Mask/Mantles can be gained or discarded.

We know Elaine was/is a potential Starborn.  But we don't know her Birthday.  I doubt it was Halloween, because if it was, I'd think Harry would have mentioned it at some point when he was thinking about her.

We know his Mother died in childbirth.  Could this have been significant?  Possibly.  A sacrifice element may be needed, but we don't know.

His father was "a good man" according to Eb.  This could have been an ingredient in the creation of a starborn.  I think it was.

Since Harry was born on 10/31, that means he was conceived around 01/31.  I know of nothing significant, astrologically or religiously significant for around that date.

I think we are lacking to many things to really make a good guess.

Still, it's fun to think about and theorize.

[jonas]

and knowing full well Thomas was born on Valentines day we should have long ago sloughed off the idea Halloween is important for 'starborn' or the unique date, again, as Elaine was born in spring, and she is the only case we know of as a certain maybe. But also add in the fact Mab would take Thomas and it makes me think he has the same potential as Harry to be a potent Weapon vs Outsiders...  Also comparing Elaine to Harry the thing that happens at Halloween iirc is the equinox, and the same in the summer with Elaine i'd bet so their birthdays co-align with Winter and Summer, Harry the Wintery Side and Elaine the Summery. It's an intentional balance done between the two.

[peregrine]

Jim has said that Thomas was born on Valentine's day because the universe has a sense of humor.  Literally nothing has suggested that Thomas is also a Starborn other than that Mab said she could take him, and even that was said to put pressure on Harry.

Plus neither the equinox or solstice come anywhere near Halloween.

[jonas]

Jim has said that Thomas was born on Valentine's day because the universe has a sense of humor.  Literally nothing has suggested that Thomas is also a Starborn other than that Mab said she could take him, and even that was said to put pressure on Harry.

Plus neither the equinox or solstice come anywhere near Halloween.

sorry I misspoke

The 4 cross-quarter days fall between equinoxes and solstices. Halloween is the spookiest one – derived from a sacred festival of ancient Celts and Druids – coming as days grow short and nights long in the Northern Hemisphere.

Halloween in the DF is specifically a time of ending, cross that with Harrys affinity for Death, endings and Winter(which is all over the place), Elaine's spring birthday and her connotations to Summer and her more nature bound elements in casting AND then take Thomas's very specific birthday and the fact he's basically become addicted to feeding on Love via only satisfied by Justine, more or less becoming an addict to a poison, like a drinker, that poison being love. Annnd then maybe you start to realize not all starborn are the same? That maybe they are as varied as say... the stars in the sky?

Another one that has that potential 'good man who saved fallen mother' make up is Molly whom I could point out as a real likely canidate for being Mab's star reborn as she directly effected how Fearbringer was formed in reality and was trained to use fear without breaking the laws by Lea before becoming a winter canidate(or as a result of said training/mirror alignment Mmm?)
But your right literally nothing is outright stated about much of anything in the DF, instead it's left to us, quite intentionally, to fill in the Lacuna.

(click to show/hide)

THAT! right there, I made you use logic in a linear fashion to guess at something stated nonlinearly based on a known premise, assuming you know by now the meaning of lacuna. collecting and connecting otherwise disparate thoughts into a cohesive formation

It's not that hard to do really.... and this is why I was looking for someone to talk to on the level, not listen to what we already know for sure. Iff'n I wanted that I have the books, yea?

[jonas]

Lets examine that in conjunction with Griff's assertion Starborn exist in all timelines.
First, i'm going to limit it right now, to DF verses only. Then take what JB said about the NN surrounding only earth in 'this' reality and apply it to the DF verse proper. Stars are ergo outside of reality, the masks of those things are known and worn on earth, imo if the thing itself is whole, a whole star, then it's more or less an angel class being, ergo immutable by Nemesis(whom is then off our star/shadow, only able to effect what stand inside our light, Angels are outside of space/time to view it. Harry, starborn, of the stars, but mortal, mutable himself, can effect both sides as you 'cant' protect from yourself') So reality surrounds earth and those things outside of reality pierce into it in various guises depending on which reality it is, also why Outsiders look different but Uriel actually looks the same in all realities, he is the star, he went from mortal starborn to immortal star simultaneously. Basically overwriting it's old form the same way the fallen now think they are the originals but Lasciels 'closest to true form' is a 2k yr old Greek woman..
Anyway, what was I talking about?

[Kindler]

Since Harry was born on 10/31, that means he was conceived around 01/31.  I know of nothing significant, astrologically or religiously significant for around that date.

Maybe the difference between Julian and Gregorian calendars matters? If I had a starting year, I could calculate the differences between their Hastings-era roots and today's dates. (Something like every four hundred years, the difference between dates grows by three days or so, because the Julian Calendar is about eleven minutes longer). Today, EST, is March 21st, for example (happy Equinox, Romans!)

It probably doesn't really matter, but it might.

[raidem]

Yeah.  I think it is clear that a Starborn isn't in all timelines. I do however believe that as they develop their power, they gain a domain over multiple and expanding timelines.

In Amber, the multiverse family exists on a higher plane of existence and as such has a greater permanence in the multiverse than others. They can go to different worlds, even recreating shadowed worlds.  Their existence outside of Amber (the city/world of Order) has the potential of casting copies of themselves in the Universe.  This brings me to the thought that Harry might be a copy of/descendant of a copy of this higher being that traversed Earth.  He isn't likely to be just be a 'copy' as he was actually born... Hmm.  "StarBORN"

Ok.  What I'm thinking about Starborn is this.
Starborn is related to beings that exist on a higher plane of existence.
These beings can have sex, procreate, visit other worlds.  However, the circumstances of procreation is restricted to places in 'time.'
Proximate descendants of these beings qualify to pass on potential Starborn traits.
Starborn has an ability to traverse, affect the multiverse on a large scale.
We know they have power over Outsiders.  It likely stems from a Amber story of the multiverse creation event whereby 'Corwin' created a twinned multiverse within the Amberstory.  Proximate descendants of "Corwin" would then qualify as Multiversal beings of Power.  The ones that are mortal descendants and Proximate to Corwin could be considered eligible "Starborn".  Because "Corwin's" descendants have dominion within the multiverse, they have power over those coming from Outside the Multiverse created by "Corwin."

[nedserD C B yrraH]

I find the descriptors of Starborn a better jumping off point. We know that multiple things must align, circumstances as well as time to produce a Starborn. We know that a Starborn has the potential to wield power over Outsiders. Harry has been referred to a fulcrum many times. I think a Starborn is a person who will make a decision or a lifetime of decisions that affect the continuation of the DV. I think the redeemed parent and one good parent is an important aspects as it allows the child to have a little of both within it with both serving as avatars for the Outsiders and Insider. Everything is vulnerable to something that is of itself. Making the Starborn a double edged sword. The Inside can't subjugate Free Will as that limits existence, whereas the Outside cares not if the world perishes in Fire or Ice as long as it perishes. Starborn gets faced with choices that count as a proxy vote for reality. A Starborn would exist in all DF realities but wouldn't have to be the same person, just the person that will face those choices.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Look at the last conversation Lash had with Harry. Lash - "...because of the circumstances of your birth - because of why you were born, Harry.  Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."

The italics or emphasis on the words "why" and "reason' are in the book.  While we don't know if a starborn can come about by chance; I suppose it might be possible, this certainly isn't the case with Harry.  Harry's mother was a powerful wizard in her own right.  So some magical heritage might be and probably is a prerequisite to become a starborn, but more important is that Harry's abilities in this regard were planned in advance Margaret Gwendolyn LeFay.

The second sentence suggests Harry's mother discovered something; something about Outsiders certainly, and more specifically about their connection to Lord Raith.  She wanted to her unborn son to have the ability to defeat Outsiders and possibly the ability to beat Lord Raith's immunity to magic.  This is a WAG.  We know Daddy Raith was more or less invulnerable to magical attack but we don't know how he gained that knowledge.  There's a red herring (IMO) about Raith's secret magical library but what if LR learned, was taught or was granted some limited type of Outsider magic; specifically the kind that makes someone or something more or less invulnerable to magic that most wizards use.  You might think this isn't relevant because Lord Raith is hors de combat, but he might make a comeback or Lara mighty oneday get the same invulnerability her father had.  If Harry realized that invulnerability was powered by Outsider magic, he might, one day, discover he can pierce that defense.

Final point is what Lash said next.  "There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would give a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."  To me, this sounds like a formula or more likely a ritual was involved in Harry's birth and maybe even his procreation.  I may have more to say about this sentence later.

Question: I assume we know Elaine had the potential to be a starborn from a WoJ, because I don't remember reading this in any of the books.  Jim might be pulling a fast one on us.  Maybe the circumstances of her birth gave Elaine this potential, but perhaps the other elements, like the correct ritual to infuse the energies needed to make her a starborn were lacking.  Or maybe Elaine is a starborn because someone else wanted a starborn individual they could manipulate.  At the moment, I don't think there is anyway for us to know exactly what Elaine is beyond a mortal wizard.

         

[Quantus]

Question: I assume we know Elaine had the potential to be a starborn from a WoJ, because I don't remember reading this in any of the books.  Jim might be pulling a fast one on us.  Maybe the circumstances of her birth gave Elaine this potential, but perhaps the other elements, like the correct ritual to infuse the energies needed to make her a starborn were lacking.  Or maybe Elaine is a starborn because someone else wanted a starborn individual they could manipulate.  At the moment, I don't think there is anyway for us to know exactly what Elaine is beyond a mortal wizard.

Here's the WOJ.  It's important to note that whatever makes them Starborn Potential, apparently Dumorne was aware of it AND able to identify it (or something he worked with could).

2010 Lee’s Summit signing
Q:  Is Elaine another candidate to wield power over Outsiders (the way Harry supposedly is)?
A:  Yes.  There’s a reason Justin picked the two of them. (Editor's note:  The original asker posted this clarification)

…I asked him the question
The full question was if he had stated in the past, during an interview, that Elaine also was a candidate to have the potential to wield power over Outsiders.  His longer answer was yes, he had said that before, that Harry and Elaine are just a few months apart age wise so for all intensive purposes the same age.  He then told me that was one of the reasons that Justin had picked both of them to adopt, it wasn't just random kids with power.  The key word in my question and his answer was potential.

2011 Naperville Signing

[KurtinStGeorge]

I'll have to re-read the scene where Harry first met HWWB but I don't remember him beating the Walker with his own magic.  HWWB was stupid enough to stand between two gas pumps.  Harry was PO'd which allowed him to generate his first big fire spell (Fuego!) which destroyed the safety mechanisms on the pumps to create a huge explosion and fireball.

It's not until Cold Days that Harry is shown to have real influence over an Outsider (Shark Face) by using his full Name as a mental weapon to force the Walker to reveal his own Name.  It was a very intuitive move by Harry because Lash didn't give Harry a hint about how he could have influence over Outsiders, just that he could do it.

If Elaine could do something similar, doesn't she have to know in advance that it's possible?  Wizards as a rule don't like handing anyone their full name, though Harry and Elaine know each other's.   Even though I strongly suspect we will find there are other ways a Starborn may exert influence over Outsiders, if they don't have any idea they have such power why would they even try?

[jonas]

Right? I always chalked it up to it being regular old fire after he called it up, just like the can of sterno.

[Griffyn612]

I'll have to re-read the scene where Harry first met HWWB but I don't remember him beating the Walker with his own magic.  HWWB was stupid enough to stand between two gas pumps.  Harry was PO'd which allowed him to generate his first big fire spell (Fuego!) which destroyed the safety mechanisms on the pumps to create a huge explosion and fireball.

It's not until Cold Days that Harry is shown to have real influence over an Outsider (Shark Face) by using his full Name as a mental weapon to force the Walker to reveal his own Name.  It was a very intuitive move by Harry because Lash didn't give Harry a hint about how he could have influence over Outsiders, just that he could do it.

If Elaine could do something similar, doesn't she have to know in advance that it's possible?  Wizards as a rule don't like handing anyone their full name, though Harry and Elaine know each other's.   Even though I strongly suspect we will find there are other ways a Starborn may exert influence over Outsiders, if they don't have any idea they have such power why would they even try?

My theory is that the color of Harry's magic depends on the type of power he's channeling.  We've had silver magic fueled by soulfire, and blue magic fueled by winter power.

So far we've seen two fights with Outsiders, and both times, golden magic has been manifested.

My rage and fear poured out of me. Fire lashed out from my open hand like water from a broken hydrant. It spilled all over He Who Walks Behind and over Stan’s body, and lit up the darkness with angry golden light.

“Go ahead!” I shouted. “Go ahead and eat me! And then we’ll see if you’ve got the stomach to keep me down!” I lifted my staff and golden white fire began to pour from the carved runes as I gathered power into it.

If I'm correct, starborn power manifests subconsciously when going toe-to-toe with Outsiders.  And Harry manifested it as a kid without knowing anything about starborn, or his power over Outsiders.

That suggests that Elaine wouldn't have to know what she was facing, or about her power over them, to be a successful starborn (if she were).

[raidem]

My wag is that a Angel speaking words, giving assistance, or another subharry acting on younger Harry in that fight.