Author Topic: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?  (Read 10033 times)

Offline jonas

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2017, 09:01:12 PM »
I don't believe we have had it confirmed that the infiltrator Nemesis was literally the Greek goddess Nemesis, rather than another entity taking up that name (like the Lords of Outer Night pretending to be the Mayan gods).
Key point, when they stole the identity they changed the names too.

I am now trying to remember which theology it is where Lucifer's revolt is prompted by being absolutely horrified that the WG would be so evil as to enable humans to make choices that would deny them Heaven.[/quote]Which if you read is precisely my point there man... precisely my point...

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Besides, TWG is all judgey.  Lucifer loves and rewards everyone, no matter how bad.  The bit in the Gospels about loving your enemies comes to mind.
The original testament was, and that is again already accounted for in my head, but before that, see above and remember this is an artistically licensed book, not the gospel.


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There's a connection between necromancy and Outsiders, beyond that free-willed humans interested in causing havoc mess about with them both and the White Council think both are a bad idea?
Non sequitur? *shrugs* idk see what the line of though is here.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2017, 09:03:35 PM »
Outsiders are beings from outside our reality. That's how they are always described.

And I'm fairly certain, that Nemesis isn't the greek goddess of retribution and just punishment. I'm farily certain, that it has something to do with modern english meaning of the world which is akin to "Enemy", "Adversary" or "Satan" ..
The Adversary was a heavenly role Lucifer occupied(has NO connotations to the Satan actually) mainly shown in the book of Job. His role as the Devil was after the fall.
Hence why you can say her role but not the name there.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2017, 09:28:15 PM »
We know it wasn't OG Merlin because Jim said so.

OK, I'd not seen that one. 

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Granted that is a logical leap in reasoning there, but not an unfounded one since we have an Nfected meave seeking to break open the well. It's safe to assume they have allies or otherwise contained individuals in there for those reasons.

Or they just want to release evil stuff to cause chaos and act under cover of that chaos. No formal alliance necessary.

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The connection between DR and Outsiders is most outright stated by DR himself, when he names them Old Gods with capitalization in the book(unless i'm wildly misremembering something I thought before when I read it) vs Harry's proclamation in DB of the same manor towards the Outsiders as Old Gods and their servants.

I think you are misremembering here.

IIRC, Old Gods is used in several places to refer to the polytheistic deities who are mostly in the NN and not affecting Earth any more, as by Harry in PG.  The gods of the Outsiders are the Old Ones.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2017, 09:31:43 PM »
Key point, when they stole the identity they changed the names too.

Remind me what you are referring to here,

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I am now trying to remember which theology it is where Lucifer's revolt is prompted by being absolutely horrified that the WG would be so evil as to enable humans to make choices that would deny them Heaven.
Which if you read is precisely my point there man... precisely my point...

Your point was that being in favour of free will may not make TWG a good guy, and being against it may not make Lucifer evil, too ?

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Non sequitur? *shrugs* idk see what the line of though is here.

The line of thought is, you drawing a connection from Outsiders to naagloshi to necromancy-powered Black Court vampires seems to me to be lumping three disparate things into one without evidence enough to do so.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2017, 09:35:08 PM »
The red court as pretenders is Harry's wishfull thinking. Odin was quite clear about it. They used to be gods and were worshiped by a whole nation just like him.

We know from various sources (Harry in PG, the bassanid in "last Call") that the old gods mostly left Earth and the bassanid at least believes TWG had something to do with it.

Nothing prevents the original mayan gods being kicked out whenever that happened (which I think was most likely around the time of Christ, am I remembering the bassanid referring to about two thousand years correctly?) and the Red Court who replaced them having centuries to be worshipped as gods before the various relevant Mesoamerican cultures collapsed.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2017, 09:48:55 PM »
We know from various sources (Harry in PG, the bassanid in "last Call") that the old gods mostly left Earth and the bassanid at least believes TWG had something to do with it.

Nothing prevents the original mayan gods being kicked out whenever that happened (which I think was most likely around the time of Christ, am I remembering the bassanid referring to about two thousand years correctly?) and the Red Court who replaced them having centuries to be worshipped as gods before the various relevant Mesoamerican cultures collapsed.

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“What you must understand is that you face beings such as I in this battle.”
I frowned. “You mean . . . gods?”
“Mostly retired gods, at any rate,” Vadderung said. “Once, entire civilizations bowed to them. Now they are venerated by only a handful, the power of their blood spread out among thousands of offspring. But in the Lords of Outer Night, even the remnants of that power are more than you can face as you are.”

That seems quite clear and Vadderung should know.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2017, 10:44:55 PM »
Remind me what you are referring to here,
Kulkan usurped identity from Quetzalcoatl. The blood sacrifice thing and the overtaking of cultures happened in the same cultural revolution, just as the Greeks did turning into the decadent Romans(probably not a coincidence we met Hades, not Pluto even though Pluto is a more recent mask). The newer names were what they became known under after a change had set in giving rise to a new identity(though you could argue it was vice versa, Frozen and all the kid friendly things haven't changed the Fae yet)


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Your point was that being in favour of free will may not make TWG a good guy, and being against it may not make Lucifer evil, too ?
Point being TWG being a champion of goodwill and Lucifer's power described as unable to even have room for the concept of freedom is purely a DF creation, Jim's work. Giving it more meaning than borrowed aspects

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The line of thought is, you drawing a connection from Outsiders to naagloshi to necromancy-powered Black Court vampires seems to me to be lumping three disparate things into one without evidence enough to do so.
Welcome to the C.I.A. Dr. Holmes. The evidence is all there already. I can continually point it out, though if the circumstances are agreed upon is an entirely other matter.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 11:38:36 PM by jonas »
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Offline Firestarter

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2017, 11:57:17 AM »
The line of thought is, you drawing a connection from Outsiders to naagloshi to necromancy-powered Black Court vampires seems to me to be lumping three disparate things into one without evidence enough to do so.
Welcome to the C.I.A. Dr. Holmes. The evidence is all there already. I can continually point it out, though if the circumstances are agreed upon is an entirely other matter.
1. Sherlock Holmes was not a Dr. . Watson was the Dr. Also: The person Holmes' character was based upon was. Which is quite funny, since House was somewhat based upon Holmes.
2. Trying to push Outsiders, Naagloshii, possibly Reds and Blampires into one group is kinda silly. What is this? Scott Pilgrim vs. The World? It's perfectly fine to have multiple actors with their own agendas in this. Makes things a lot more interesting. If it ends up Harry vs. everyone else and he's also expected to win... well... the story would suck.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2017, 12:25:53 PM »
I sometimes think that all the supernatural in our world got their power from the outsiders and the outsiders want it back.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2017, 01:00:34 PM »
Welcome to the C.I.A. Dr. Holmes. The evidence is all there already. I can continually point it out, though if the circumstances are agreed upon is an entirely other matter.

1. Sherlock Holmes was not a Dr. . Watson was the Dr. Also: The person Holmes' character was based upon was. Which is quite funny, since House was somewhat based upon Holmes.
2. Trying to push Outsiders, Naagloshii, possibly Reds and Blampires into one group is kinda silly. What is this? Scott Pilgrim vs. The World? It's perfectly fine to have multiple actors with their own agendas in this. Makes things a lot more interesting. If it ends up Harry vs. everyone else and he's also expected to win... well... the story would suck.
SInce you can't seem to make comments refuting others without adding in biting retorts, i'm going to block you now, thanks guy. I mean hell, I think it's silly to refute someones theory or idea without seeing the base points of why they have it, but that's just me.
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...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2017, 01:12:32 PM »
If there is anything linking Outsiders, Naagloshii, and BCV; I would say it might be Dracul and scions.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2017, 01:18:31 PM »
If there is anything linking Outsiders, Naagloshii, and BCV; I would say it might be Dracul and scions.
Or they just don’t like the status quo. That would be enough to work in the same direction.
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Offline Firestarter

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2017, 03:27:41 PM »
SInce you can't seem to make comments refuting others without adding in biting retorts, i'm going to block you now, thanks guy. I mean hell, I think it's silly to refute someones theory or idea without seeing the base points of why they have it, but that's just me.
Wow, someone reading Dresden Files doesn't like sarcasm in a discussion. Ah well. I think I'm going to throw a pity party that you blocked me :)

And I'm fairly certain that I wasn't refuting your theory. I was presenting my thoughts on said theory. And I said that I didn't like it, because it basically flattens the whole story. I like Dresden Files because it has it's complexity.

I'm guessing that it's not the whole Black Court. I'm guessing, that Mavra wanted the Word of Kemmler to protect her and hers from Outsiders.

As Mother Summer said:
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2017, 04:11:14 PM »
I think we all need to remember this is a polite and fun forum that allows all theories and speculation. Light-hearted snarkiness is great; but, texts that feel like personal attacks are nobody's friend. We shouldn't have to block people or throw pity parties. If something is said that cause anger then ignore it and move onto another thread; we have plenty that can be discussed. I am not a moderator or any kind of an authority figure; just a member wanting to discuss my favorite topic (me) and Butcher's work. Thank you.
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Offline Firestarter

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2017, 04:16:02 PM »
I think we all need to remember this is a polite and fun forum that allows all theories and speculation. Light-hearted snarkiness is great; but, texts that feel like personal attacks are nobody's friend. We shouldn't have to block people or throw pity parties. If something is said that cause anger then ignore it and move onto another thread; we have plenty that can be discussed. I am not a moderator or any kind of an authority figure; just a member wanting to discuss my favorite topic (me) and Butcher's work. Thank you.
That part with me throwing a pity party was just me being sarcastic :)

And I didn't mean to attack anyone and as far as I'm aware, I'm not formulating my posts like that. I simply enjoy a joke or some banter every once in a while. I would apologize, but in this case offense was taken, not given.
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