Author Topic: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?  (Read 10036 times)

Offline Firestarter

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2017, 03:02:29 PM »
Hmmm... I don't want the Naagloshii to be under the influence of Nemesis. First of all, it makes little sense, second of all, it would make Dresdenverse a very, very, very boring place.

Guys, let's be a little open minded, allow other creatures to be asshats too. Seriously... how do people even get into a position, where they want to polarize world into only two sides. This isn't the US senate, people.

In the real world you can have plenty of groups do bad or good things for their own reasons. Not because they are part of this group, that group or the entirely different other group.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2017, 03:41:36 PM »
Gotta consider, why the Naglooshi ended up in DR in at least a dozen then. We got the very British sounding guy everyone is willing to accept as Nefected but conceivably an actual mortal... but totally leave behind the signifigence of him saying he needs to be in their and why that is.
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Offline Firestarter

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2017, 04:13:39 PM »
Gotta consider, why the Naglooshi ended up in DR in at least a dozen then. We got the very British sounding guy everyone is willing to accept as Nefected but conceivably an actual mortal... but totally leave behind the signifigence of him saying he needs to be in their and why that is.
Because they are sadistic monsters who enjoy causing all kinds of pain and the Wardens are mortals? That would be enough of a reason for most people. Nobody ever said, that Demonreach was entirely impartial to all Insiders.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2017, 04:59:50 PM »
Because they are sadistic monsters who enjoy causing all kinds of pain and the Wardens are mortals? That would be enough of a reason for most people. Nobody ever said, that Demonreach was entirely impartial to all Insiders.
You consider Naagloshi insiders? The whole can't exist outside of own domain without incurring debt and their descendant Grey's need to pay Rent, I'd peg them as none natural to the mortal plain or reality as a whole.
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Offline Firestarter

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2017, 05:46:20 PM »
You consider Naagloshi insiders? The whole can't exist outside of own domain without incurring debt and their descendant Grey's need to pay Rent, I'd peg them as none natural to the mortal plain or reality as a whole.
Of course I do. Naagloshii are messengers [ or their descedants ] of North American gods. The territory part comes with the mythology. They are most definitely not Outsiders. Fomors are insiders too. So are various other demons and deities.

If you think otherwise, maybe re-read the books again...?
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Offline jonas

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2017, 06:29:55 PM »
Of course I do. Naagloshii are messengers [ or their descedants ] of North American gods. The territory part comes with the mythology. They are most definitely not Outsiders. Fomors are insiders too. So are various other demons and deities.

If you think otherwise, maybe re-read the books again...?
Maybe hold the snark before I show you how it's done...?
Nemesis used to be a Greek Goddess. Now she's not, now she's what GK watches for at the gates. Yea, yea, Nemesis isn't... but she is, reread what Titania told Harry and why that would be, it's okay to call it The Adversary but Not Nemesis as, it will attract it's attention. The only known mechanism that works precisely that way is Naming things(heck we have a literal Greek example in Hades, who wears Mordite on his crown). No reason to make up a whole new mechanism when a known effect is applicable, nor would it necessarily be a stronger case..
Which would naturally lead to the rebuttal that Hades is part of reality, his spirit is true, in so much as it's still attached to it's original human memory of him.
Then we have MS's comment to MW that it's not 'her' world. The comparison of MW as the longest shadow and Lucifer as the deepest, the fact though both those things exist in human memory they are in fact both simply reflections of direct inside universe immortals. Lucifer in particular here, because in SmF his power is described as the anti version of what TWC promotes, the idea of freedom. This is not directly from any biblical sourcing I know of, this is his own spin and ergo directly relevant. Hell, even Mab is actually just the shadow of Titania, even though she has more purchase inside reality than any demon of an active religion as a story book character...
Moral of that rant is the division between 'outsider' and insider isn't so clear, and indeed Shaggy and co all have the same vein of negative attributions as Outsiders and even Blamps, who exist inside but are apparently effected heavily by Necromancy and the power of NOT.
Also, comparing Angels to Ghosts(as is obliquely done in GS) they scale to the same set of choices to make the same relevant change in reply. Angels can stay out of it and do only what they are meant to or they Fall. Ghosts can respect that same veil between the NN and reality or they too go completely batshit from it. Though the effects are different the causality is actually quite similar if not the same. Almost everything can be applied to this model I think..
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2017, 07:41:05 PM »
We got the very British sounding guy everyone is willing to accept as Nefected but conceivably an actual mortal... but totally leave behind the signifigence of him saying he needs to be in their and why that is.

Since when has everyone been willing to accept that guy as Nemfected?  Last I heard, the prevailing wisdom was that he was the original Merlin and in there voluntarily.
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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2017, 07:43:26 PM »
The whole can't exist outside of own domain without incurring debt and their descendant Grey's need to pay Rent,

Have we some evidence for Grey's Rent being a general skinwalker thing rather than specific to Grey in particular, who seems to be only part-skinwalker?  The comparison that makes most sense to me there is the changelings in SK (and Sarissa in CD) making particular efforts to choose to be human or Faerie or indeed to defer choosing.
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Offline Firestarter

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2017, 07:48:00 PM »
Maybe hold the snark before I show you how it's done...?
Nemesis used to be a Greek Goddess. Now she's not, now she's what GK watches for at the gates. Yea, yea, Nemesis isn't... but she is, reread what Titania told Harry and why that would be, it's okay to call it The Adversary but Not Nemesis as, it will attract it's attention. The only known mechanism that works precisely that way is Naming things(heck we have a literal Greek example in Hades, who wears Mordite on his crown). No reason to make up a whole new mechanism when a known effect is applicable, nor would it necessarily be a stronger case..
Which would naturally lead to the rebuttal that Hades is part of reality, his spirit is true, in so much as it's still attached to it's original human memory of him.
Then we have MS's comment to MW that it's not 'her' world. The comparison of MW as the longest shadow and Lucifer as the deepest, the fact though both those things exist in human memory they are in fact both simply reflections of direct inside universe immortals. Lucifer in particular here, because in SmF his power is described as the anti version of what TWC promotes, the idea of freedom. This is not directly from any biblical sourcing I know of, this is his own spin and ergo directly relevant. Hell, even Mab is actually just the shadow of Titania, even though she has more purchase inside reality than any demon of an active religion as a story book character...
Moral of that rant is the division between 'outsider' and insider isn't so clear, and indeed Shaggy and co all have the same vein of negative attributions as Outsiders and even Blamps, who exist inside but are apparently effected heavily by Necromancy and the power of NOT.
Also, comparing Angels to Ghosts(as is obliquely done in GS) they scale to the same set of choices to make the same relevant change in reply. Angels can stay out of it and do only what they are meant to or they Fall. Ghosts can respect that same veil between the NN and reality or they too go completely batshit from it. Though the effects are different the causality is actually quite similar if not the same. Almost everything can be applied to this model I think..

Outsiders are beings from outside our reality. That's how they are always described.

And I'm fairly certain, that Nemesis isn't the greek goddess of retribution and just punishment. I'm farily certain, that it has something to do with modern english meaning of the world which is akin to "Enemy", "Adversary" or "Satan" ..
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2017, 07:49:58 PM »
=
Nemesis used to be a Greek Goddess. Now she's not, now she's what GK watches for at the gates.

I don't believe we have had it confirmed that the infiltrator Nemesis was literally the Greek goddess Nemesis, rather than another entity taking up that name (like the Lords of Outer Night pretending to be the Mayan gods).

Quote
Lucifer in particular here, because in SmF his power is described as the anti version of what TWC promotes, the idea of freedom.

I am now trying to remember which theology it is where Lucifer's revolt is prompted by being absolutely horrified that the WG would be so evil as to enable humans to make choices that would deny them Heaven.

Besides, TWG is all judgey.  Lucifer loves and rewards everyone, no matter how bad.  The bit in the Gospels about loving your enemies comes to mind.


Quote
Moral of that rant is the division between 'outsider' and insider isn't so clear, and indeed Shaggy and co all have the same vein of negative attributions as Outsiders and even Blamps, who exist inside but are apparently effected heavily by Necromancy and the power of NOT.

There's a connection between necromancy and Outsiders, beyond that free-willed humans interested in causing havoc mess about with them both and the White Council think both are a bad idea?
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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2017, 07:51:28 PM »
Angels were messengers of God and some of them fell. Sometimes messengers don't get the message. :)

Depends on their motives.

(Never mind sacrificing your life for your friends, how great a love does it take to sacrifice eternity ?)
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Offline Firestarter

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2017, 08:20:08 PM »
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh: While I enjoy your posts, I'd like to bring your attention to the existence of the *gasp* "modify" button.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2017, 08:35:17 PM »
Since when has everyone been willing to accept that guy as Nemfected?  Last I heard, the prevailing wisdom was that he was the original Merlin and in there voluntarily.
We know it wasn't OG Merlin because Jim said so. Unless you think him being deceptive he specifically tells Harry he needs to be in there. Granted that is a logical leap in reasoning there, but not an unfounded one since we have an Nfected meave seeking to break open the well. It's safe to assume they have allies or otherwise contained individuals in there for those reasons. The connection between DR and Outsiders is most outright stated by DR himself, when he names them Old Gods with capitalization in the book(unless i'm wildly misremembering something I thought before when I read it) vs Harry's proclamation in DB of the same manor towards the Outsiders as Old Gods and their servants.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2017, 08:40:53 PM »
I don't believe we have had it confirmed that the infiltrator Nemesis was literally the Greek goddess Nemesis, rather than another entity taking up that name (like the Lords of Outer Night pretending to be the Mayan gods).
The red court as pretenders is Harry's wishfull thinking. Odin was quite clear about it. They used to be gods and were worshiped by a whole nation just like him.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2017, 08:51:11 PM »
Have we some evidence for Grey's Rent being a general skinwalker thing rather than specific to Grey in particular, who seems to be only part-skinwalker?  The comparison that makes most sense to me there is the changelings in SK (and Sarissa in CD) making particular efforts to choose to be human or Faerie or indeed to defer choosing.
Is it not a succinct enough parallel? Skinwalkers are drained constantly by being on foreign land on top of being already diminished by leaving. This is similar to Threshold rules, for a reason. They are violating the current Spiritus Mundi of earth, that which defines it's reality and set's it's cosmic rules apparently, TWC. They are in a very basic way incroaching on his home turf. Grey being part SW seems to have the same problem but he combats this by paying 'Rent'. Keeping his fluid mortal nature in positive spectrum, much like Kringle(the courts specifically and intentionally ride the balance so neither side wins out) himself with his gift giving. he gives more than he receives in return.
Again, this positive-negatve spectrum is found in everything, but being Outsider seems to imply having no positive connections to reality at all(which includes memetics in humans, though not always). It's why Warden became wardens, Wizards who violate the laws are actually in one way or another violating that same freedom of will, Warlocks and Necromancers don't use positive energy anymore, just as Fallen don't use soulfire, they use Hellfire. Everything exists on this spectrum, and humans are the perfect alloy of it all, and capable of rotating the composition too.
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...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.