Author Topic: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?  (Read 3743 times)

Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2017, 10:48:43 PM »
 The curse would hit McCoy even hidden behind the wards of headquarters, any chance such an act would harm or weaken those wards. If the rcv could deal with the council place of power, the war would be just about won.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2017, 11:15:08 PM »
The curse would hit McCoy even hidden behind the wards of headquarters, any chance such an act would harm or weaken those wards. If the rcv could deal with the council place of power, the war would be just about won.
Yeah, put it this way: A bullet designed to go through armor isn't going to leave the armor intact.
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2017, 03:13:14 AM »
Yeah, put it this way: A bullet designed to go through armor isn't going to leave the armor intact.
Eh...  "Through" and "Around" are tough to quantify in this case.  It's possible the spell can somehow magically teleport past the armor on its course towards the target.  Or sneak through a gap in the armor.  Or whatever.  It doesn't necessarily have to just punch through it leaving a hole.

Though it certainly could as well, if Jim decides that's how things work.

Offline ebliss1

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2017, 10:52:12 AM »
Quote
One is the Blackstaff, probably one of the most deadly wizards on the planet who is personally responsible for nuking a Red Court warlord and his whole retinue, and just generally responsible for a whole hell of a lot of dead Red Court. He's also one of the leaders of the White Council.

The other is a war hero already and an inspiration to a large portion of the White Council; he is growing in power, and he's probably the direct influence and inspiration for a lot of the front-line fighters, like Ramirez.

It's not taking out "two dudes." It's like taking out the President and his cabinet, and breaking the US's nuclear weapons all in one go. Remember that of the 1000 or so wizards in the White Council, only a fraction of them are combat capable, and only a fraction of those come anywhere near Ebenezer or Harry's ability.

So the Red Court isn't just taking out "two dudes." They're taking out two extremely important weapons, both physically and morale-wise.

I think you are vastly overstating your case with these two. First, how well do non-members of the White Council's Senior Council know about the office of the Blackstaff? Heck, even Harry was somewhat sketchy on the concept, so is Eb's position and power level truly well-known? I don't think we have seen anything in the books to indicate that any of the other supernatural entities know what the deal is with the WC's Blackstaff. And even if they do know it, would the rank and file of the Red Court know enough about him to be sufficiently wowed by the bloodline curse taking him out? Second, Harry "started" the war, but he's not the most well-known and capable wizard warrior. Morgan held that role. He was the one who carved a path almost to the Red King himself. Morgan would have been the name that would have wowed folks, not Harry. Harry is well-known in the supernatural world as a thorn in the side of the White Council and something of a black sheep to them.

If the RC was acting as you are stating, they would have targeted the Merlin and/or Ancient Mai. Those are the ones who have name recognition and "wow factor" as being the most powerful and thus, the most impactful. The rest of the supernatural community would not have been impressed with the scale of the spell to kill two mortals, one of whom most consider to be just a pain in the backside thug.

And Kindler is right, this level of overkill to get these two specifically is stupid. If they were truly the targets, there are literally hundreds of ways to do it that are more effective and easier. 2 guys with flamethrowers showing up to Harry's boardinghouse could have taken care of him, and a whole bunch of claymores around Eb's truck set to go off when their electrical circuit is disrupted would take care of him after the Ramps called him and said "hi there - we just roasted your grandson alive".
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Offline forumghost

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2017, 12:38:22 PM »
Even if Eb's status as Blackstaff isn't well known (and we know that at least some of the Rampires know, because they tell Harry as much) He's still a member of the Senior Council, one of the Biggest heavyweights the Council has. taking him out is a major blow.

And you're really underselling Harry here. We know that he's kinda a bumbling idiot, but from the outside he's pretty terrifying, and he has a pretty badass rep in-universe.

See; A Bunch of Senior Wardens with 3 SC members at their back being Nervous about fighting him in TC, Cowl wanting to find out how good he is in DB, One of the Rampires top assassins running in terror at the sight of him in Changes, Molly pointing out in GS that a whole host of baddies just skipped over Chicago because they didn't want to tangle with "Mad Wizard Dresden", Eldest Gruff telling Harry that the Sidhe tell stories about him, etc, etc.

Like, we know his rep is overblown, but they don't.

Besides which, neither of them are that easy to kill. Like, so what if you do show up at Harry's house with a flamethrower? Assuming that he doesn't spot you coming (not an impossibility given Mouse is around) you find yourself burnt alive because remember, wards are a thing- and even if they weren't, Harry's shield is good enough to laugh that off anyway by this point in the series.

But yes, it would be overkill- if they weren't trying to punch though enough mystical defenses to stop anyone lower on the totem poll then freaking Mab.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 01:25:16 PM by forumghost »

Offline Talby16

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2017, 12:44:38 PM »
With regards to Ebenezer, also remember that Kincaid knew him and his work. Every major group has someone like the Blackstaff and it is probable that they have a basic knowledge of each other. They are all in the same line of work.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2017, 12:55:50 PM »
I think you are vastly overstating your case with these two. First, how well do non-members of the White Council's Senior Council know about the office of the Blackstaff? Heck, even Harry was somewhat sketchy on the concept, so is Eb's position and power level truly well-known? I don't think we have seen anything in the books to indicate that any of the other supernatural entities know what the deal is with the WC's Blackstaff. And even if they do know it, would the rank and file of the Red Court know enough about him to be sufficiently wowed by the bloodline curse taking him out? Second, Harry "started" the war, but he's not the most well-known and capable wizard warrior. Morgan held that role. He was the one who carved a path almost to the Red King himself. Morgan would have been the name that would have wowed folks, not Harry. Harry is well-known in the supernatural world as a thorn in the side of the White Council and something of a black sheep to them.

If the RC was acting as you are stating, they would have targeted the Merlin and/or Ancient Mai. Those are the ones who have name recognition and "wow factor" as being the most powerful and thus, the most impactful. The rest of the supernatural community would not have been impressed with the scale of the spell to kill two mortals, one of whom most consider to be just a pain in the backside thug.

And Kindler is right, this level of overkill to get these two specifically is stupid. If they were truly the targets, there are literally hundreds of ways to do it that are more effective and easier. 2 guys with flamethrowers showing up to Harry's boardinghouse could have taken care of him, and a whole bunch of claymores around Eb's truck set to go off when their electrical circuit is disrupted would take care of him after the Ramps called him and said "hi there - we just roasted your grandson alive".

In fairness, Dresden is highly visible in Chicago, and has a wide reputation, especially among the rank and file Red Court, whom Harry would eat for breakfast. People have heard of him before. And Eb has a big name too (not literally; "Eb" is pretty short) beyond being the Blackstaff. He is a Senior Council member, but he's the youngest, though he's well known as a magical brawler. When the White Council was chasing down Morgan, they sent McCoy, as he's one of the only ones who can be reasonably assured of beating him head on—and Morgan was the one who almost killed the Red King.

The point being that they are high-value targets, but they just aren't high enough to justify the overly elaborate approach. Certainly worth killing, just with a simpler method.

Given leadership that is even remotely competent during the war, they should have annihilated the White Council, simply with attrition and guerrilla tactics. They obviously didn't have that in the Red King. They were so focused on zerg rushing that they didn't bother to be smart about it. Notably, the one time they were cagey, in the background of Dead Beat, they managed to kill a third of the active Wardens. It cost them a lot to do it, but if they had been doing that the whole time, they would've won in a matter of a year or two.

Similarly efficient and simple tactics would have been more than sufficient to get rid of Eb and Harry, if that was what they were trying to do. Charging up for a big show to take them down in one shot is a waste of time. If they shoot and miss, so what? They lose half a dozen nobodies. It's not like Eb or Harry is going to be more at war with the Red Court. And if at first you don't succeed...

I should also note from my previous post about Martin "delivering the Fellowship"—that was a ruse, and it wouldn't have worked even if the Red King were poised to strike, but the Red King didn't know that.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2017, 01:34:01 PM »
Martin used an grandiose spell on a blood-addled mind to achieve a desired effect.
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Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2017, 04:16:58 PM »
A couple of things:

1. Remember that in Changes, Martin claims to have dug up this old spell & set the ritual up. We also know that Ariana was the sponsor - Harry & Eb are the Wizards she hates the most due to the personal nature of their war (killing child & grandchild). We sort of know what Martin & Ariana’s motivations were...

2. I fully think that the reason Martin gave to the RCV for overpowering the spell was to break through the wards at Edinburgh & get Eb. This would send a message to the SC - none of you are safe, anywhere. This ritual could be done 6 more times to get rid of the entire SC.... & there’s relatively little they can do about it. That’s a pretty chilling thought.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2017, 05:56:38 PM »
A couple of things:

1. Remember that in Changes, Martin claims to have dug up this old spell & set the ritual up. We also know that Ariana was the sponsor - Harry & Eb are the Wizards she hates the most due to the personal nature of their war (killing child & grandchild). We sort of know what Martin & Ariana’s motivations were...

2. I fully think that the reason Martin gave to the RCV for overpowering the spell was to break through the wards at Edinburgh & get Eb. This would send a message to the SC - none of you are safe, anywhere. This ritual could be done 6 more times to get rid of the entire SC.... & there’s relatively little they can do about it. That’s a pretty chilling thought.
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Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2017, 11:02:12 PM »
It seems the curse not only killed the rcv, but it literally unmade them. I wonder if it touched something beyond even the court, some kind of patron or progenitor that aided n the creation of them. I doubt it would have killed it, but deeply weakening or wounding it most definitely.
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Offline ticonderouga

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2017, 07:11:54 AM »
The bloodline curse is ritual magic, what Harry calls the cosmic vending machine, you put in the quarter and you get the result.  The power raised is more to appease whatever entity was actually doing the real magic.  I think Victor Sells was doing an actual spell adapted from the ritual curse so needed the thunderstorms.  Just like Lord Raith's entropy curse.

Offline Paviel

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2017, 10:02:01 PM »
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You need to capture a blood descendant for the curse to work. Maggie presented an opportunity.

I'm not sure that the White Council would be aware of that limitation (or be in such a state of mind as to care about it).

Just as Harry's reputation as a badass is overblown among the Red Court, so might have been the Red Court's reputation among the White Council.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2017, 10:18:08 PM »
I am sure that most if not all of the SC have descendants. All you need is one blood connection and after several hundred years of life there is bound to be one of each that can be identified and snagged.
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Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2017, 10:50:56 PM »
When victor sells used his curse on someone having sex, it struck that individual as well. I wonder if the power of the curse is powerful enough that if it hit McCoy in headquarters, it might hit other wizards in there, potentially any covered by the wards.
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