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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: ebliss1 on October 11, 2017, 06:52:09 PM
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I was talking with a friend about this and we got to thinking about the power that was wrapped up in the CI bloodline curse. There was a LOT of power in it.
Consider that we first saw this spell in Storm Front where a 2-bit hack like Victor Sells could use a regular thunderstorm to power a spell capable of ripping the hearts out of two people - 1 the target, one just in proximity. Now, the CI bloodline curse was magnitudes more powerful. If Sells' spell was a match, the CI spell was a whole compliment of a Triden Missile Submarine ICBMs. WAY more than would be necessary to fry Harry. Way more than would be necessary to fry Eb (even with the Blackstaff - which doesn;t seem to make him immune to magic - it just shields him from negative influences). So who up the line from Eb (or Maggie Sr.) was the real target? And how come that person needed so many human sacrifices to power the spell, plus days of rituals, plus the collected power of the Lords of Outer Night, plus the Red King, plus the inherant power of CI itself, etc. The end result was the instant genocide of the Red Court - a large collection of powerful, near immortals. Something was in the Red Court's crosshairs that needed that much power.
OR
Could the RC have been duped into overpowering the spell to such a ridiculous degree as a way of ensuring it was powerful enough to wipe out the Red Court itself, and Harry was maneuvered into making the decision to make Susan turn and then murder her to eliminate the Red Court using their own spell? We have seen a few beings who could engineer something like this. Mab and Uriel spring to mind immediately. We have also heard Nic say that the Red Court was a problem that would be disastrous to his long term plans.
So - who was the target? Or who loaded the gun for the Red Court and got Harry to pull the trigger on their own assisted suicide?
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Consider who Harry Might be a decendant of, Merlinus himself. The path backwards up the family tree would have went directly to Merlin. The origin of Wizardry. Practitioners were the true target.
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I'd agree that Merlin could be a possibility, but so to could be vadderung. He was there after all. There could be quite a few sidhe involved too.
There may be further targets if there are already any future=>past TT bloodlines in existence. I had wondered about the status of Bonnie and the effect the curse would have on her line.
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Part of what also unknown is how far distant the branchings?
Hypothetically it could be just about all of the White Court at of the Raith's side.
Another factor with the ritual and place of power is that it needs to find people ANYWHERE on Earth so thats a factor.
One thing I am wondering is how does a bloodline curse find the people? Is it based on blood itself or DNA?
Hear me out, lets say a bloodline curse was done on me. I gave blood at DragonCon and I give plasma periodically as well, would that person die due to having some of my blood in their system?
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From what are you getting that the curse was overkill for Eb? One of the oldest, most powerful wizards on the planet? Yeah, the CI curse was a salvo of nukes compared to Sells' curse, but Eb is Cheyenne Mountain compared to some random mobster's metaphorical toolshed.
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I think this topic goes in line with the one I started about things going on behind the scenes, and different factions showing up to help Harry. I think the White Council as a whole would have taken massive casualties because I believe Harry has a more direct bloodline to Merlin, and as a result most of the White Council would have been hit. Also as I suspect that Odin is actually the Mantle of Merlin, he was also a target. The curse itself I think would have been a massive blow to those best suited to defending Earth.
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The bloodline curse seems like a long-range sniper shot that takes out several players in a row. Eb would be a tough kill. Harry would be a tough kill. Others, like maybe Thomas, would have been icing.
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I think the targets were Eb, Dreden, et al and the curse was that powerful because the story required it to be. I don’t think there is more to it.
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IMHO Eb was the target.
The Curse seems like overkill because they needed to breach the wards at Edinburgh to get to him- and remember DB? The last time someone tried to punch through those they needed Mab-level entity for the job.
To paraphrase Harry "It would take a God to break through and kill them"
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Breaching the Edinburgh wards would be an explanation for the power level.
BUt even that doesn't completely track for me. We've seen Eb many times leave the protection of those wards. He's not some sort of super-hermit who never comes out to the point where the "best" option for getting him is something as complex and powerful as CI. As for Eb's personal power level, I completely agree that he's a magnitude beyond Harry. But, he's still mortal. Presumably he's as vulnerable to a sniper round as Harry is. Kinkaide wasn't afraid to throw down with him, and he's a very risk-averse guy. Also, in the war with the RC, Eb wasn't the main problem for the vamps. Morgan was the one who seemed to be doing the damage. He was the one recognized by Summer for his valor on the field and he was the one who almost took down the Red King. They didn't seem to be having any Eb-centric issues other than Ortega's satellite incident that would indicate that the Red King decided that the entire focus of the Red Court should be directed at removing Eb from the field.
For me, if Eb were the target, there's better and easier ways to accomplish it. Easiest I can think of would be for an up-and-coming RC vamp (similar to what Bianaca was) who wants to make a big splash to go out and get herself a Seal Team. It would be child's play for a gorgeous RC vamp to find on off duty, and turn him. Next up is the rest of his buddies, and bang, she has her own uber-lethal hit squad. Then draw Eb into the field, probably by threatening Harry, and then let the long-range bullets do their work. Afterward, Bianca 2.0 presents Eb's bullet-ventilated head to the Red King and she's on the fast track.
Point being, in my opinion, CI was way overpowered for taking Eb off the board.
If it turns out that the reason for the overkill was to breach Edinburgh, then I'll accept that from Jim since he's at least hinted at that sort of power level being necessary to accomplish the task. I just don't think the narrative of the story has done enough at this point to show that the Red Court was that invested in Eb specifically. To me, the question remains, who were they that invested in destroying, or who wanted the RC out of the picture badly enough and who could have manipulated events sufficiently to bring about the outcome we saw?
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I mean seeing as they hit the Council with a Biological Attack under guise of peace-talks at the same time, I think The White Council was probably intended to be destroyed more-or-less in it's entirety.
Something like:
>Fake Peace Talks to get into the Stronghold at Edinburgh
>Use that twit Cristos to lock up the Non-Idiots 'Dissenters'
>Hit them with a pestilence to cripple them
>Heartblast the Blackstaff to remove that threat
>Clean-Up whoever's left
Sadly for the Reds things kinda broke down before those last two steps. If it had worked, the White Council would have been gone, or at least effectively so:
"My lord is too kind," Martin said. "Please accept my condolences on the loss of Arianna, my lord. She was a remarkable woman."
"Remarkably ambitious," the Red King said. "Determined to cling to the past, rather than exploring new opportunities. She and her entire coterie, determined to undermine me. Had she destroyed this animal and then made good upon her promise to break the back of the accursed White Council, she would have been a real threat to my power. I take no pleasure in thinking on it, but her death was meant to be."
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They wanted to get McCoy and Dresden. They were both thorns in the side of the Red Court and black council.
They needed all that power to make it go through the generations. Victor Sells was only able to kill one person with the help of a freaking thunderstorm.
They needed all the built up energy to follow the bloodline beyond the first generation.
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The target was Eb, he's a very important cog in the White Council's ability to wage war. They might even have had a plan to steal or inherit the black staff after.
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If we're getting conspiratorial about CI, then the question isn't "Who were the Reds aiming it at?" The question is "Who were the Black Council aiming it at?" The reds, with their ties to so many likely N-fected individuals and the Outsiders, were in deep with whatever the overarching conspiracy involving the Outsiders is. We do ourselves a severe disservice if we think about this only in terms of the Red's enemies.
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It is also possible that it was a gamble.
As in, they didn't need it so strong - but Arianna had arranged things so there was a good chance Eb would be ill in Edinburgh. Use the curse, and Edinburgh's wards are torn to shreds - so a RC strike team can hit the council while half of it is ill and the other half surprised by the violent destruction of their pretty, pretty wards.
If she misses? Eb is still off the table, as is pesky Harry Dresden, and half the Council is both ill and cowering after seeing even the Senior Council is not safe from the Reds, even when prepared for war.
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Was it overkill? Yes.
But when you're trying to make a one-hit-kill shot like this, you absolutely go for overkill. The idea is to make absolutely sure that Ebenezer cannot possibly survive the spell, and to do that, you overdo it. If you try to make something that would match his defenses and do just enough to kill him, you risk him getting a lucky roll of the dice and surviving, or maybe even avoiding it entirely.
As I often do, I'm gonna put this into RPG terms, because that's the best way to quantify this sort of thing. All it really takes to kill a human in the game is 3 shifts of stress. This is roughly equivalent, in the game, to being shot or stabbed with a regular gun. That's the bare minimum, for someone with no real narrative reason to take more damage than that (i.e., the kind of nameless goon that Jackie Chan decks once and moves on).
The heart exploding spell, however, is a whopping 36 shifts. Why? To make sure it passes every single possible defense a character could have and make sure he's dead. It works out to 4 (stress boxes) + 4 (highest possible defense roll) +5 (highest possible defense stat) + 22 (all possible consequences a character can take to survive the hit) +1 (to push it just over the edge). It's the Dresden RPG equivalent of "no saving throw."
We don't know what kind of personal defenses Ebenezer would have against such a spell, or the wards at Edinburgh. But when you want to make absolutely sure that your target can't avoid its fate? You go for overkill, especially if you're only going to get one shot at it.
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Watch - Jim's just stringing us along, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Harry or Eb. Its later revealed that Susan is a descendant from the same family that Mab, Titania, and Maeve came from, and doing the curse will put a reset on 2/3 the Winter Court and put Lily the Airhead on the Summer throne. Chaos ensues.
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Or who loaded the gun for the Red Court and got Harry to pull the trigger on their own assisted suicide?
I've worked from the view that Martin had played the Red Court waiting for some opportunity (e.g. Harry, Susan and Maggie) The spell was WAY overkill.
The other possibility is that Uriel and Mab had a hand in the setup, in order to balance the sheets and demonstrate what happens to folks who dis the Winter Queen.
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I always wondered how demonreach and the Blackstaff would react to the mortals that they are linked to being slain in such a way. A massive magical attack is sure to have some effect, making them potentially vulnerable.
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Was it overkill - No!
The spell was like a boulder sitting on the edge of a cliff. You need a certain amount of force to push it over the edge and then gravity does the rest, regardless of how tall the cliff is.
The bloodline curse needed that much energy to get the ball rolling regardless of whether there are 2 generations or 20 generations of targets.
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Was it overkill? Of course it was overkill. But there are several good reasons for it to be overkill so I mention a few more.
It was a demonstration of power. To impress the allies like the fomor and the red court itself and to show everyone what they were capable off. To make the white council afraid so the red court could not exploit internal differences.
And these are old beings and to understand them you have to go back and consider what a sacrifice also is. The king sacrifices animals to the gods but they are used to feed his supporters in a big feast. That is what happened with human sacrifices as well. The more human sacrifices the more generous and powerful the red king was. A king must be generous for his supporters.
And of course Ebenezar could be everywhere. Behind wards that needed a god to break or somewhere deep in the nevernever. Overkill is just the safest bet.
Or as someone else said with these beings there is no such thing as overkill.
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The thing is wont the use of such a large scale magical attack encourage other factions to demonstrate similar capability. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight, it is sure to cause an escalation so some kind of balance of power to emerge.
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The thing is wont the use of such a large scale magical attack encourage other factions to demonstrate similar capability. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight, it is sure to cause an escalation so some kind of balance of power to emerge.
The Reds had long since been going for broke. You don't start a fight with Faerie after already being at war with the Council unless you're basically going for nr. 1. And nr. 1 would be reinforced by having an ungodly powerful weapon that even your allies would be worried about.
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From the perspective of 2 characters seemingly in the know:
Martin: IIRC Martin was the one who dug up this ancient spell which he’d stumbled upon during his time as a red priest. So it seems like the mechanics/ set up would be his brainchild - seeing as one of his goals was to exterminate the red court, it’s entirely possible he overpowered the spell because he knew who it was really targeted towards - every Ramp & half Ramp in existence.
Ariana: Ariana seems to have been the ‘sponsor’ for the curse on the Ramp management side. Her motives seem to have been to promote herself to the LooN hierarchy, potentially unseating the Red King & of course revenge on the family who’d killed 2 of her own ‘family members’. I also agree with Arjan that part of the ridiculous Power was to show the Red Court’s strength - that no member of the Senior Council was safe, even behind their own wards in their stronghold
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For Ariana it was both personal and part of a coup. For the Red King, it was a show of force that is blood-addicted mind liked.
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I've never thought the bloodline curse made sense—not because it was overkill, but because it was stupid. They gather everyone at Chichen Itza, and start priming the pump with hundreds of human sacrifices, just to kill two dudes?
I don't recall it said anywhere that it would break wards, so it's not like a coordinated attack against Edinburgh would necessarily follow. It could have just as easily pass through wards without breaking them, just with reduced effect. Even if they were, there's no guarantee that Ebenezer would even be there—and, lo and behold, he wasn't. As though it's a surprise that one of the best magical brawlers and the Blackstaff wouldn't hang back when there's fighting going on.
They could have achieved their result by paying some guy twenty grand to shoot Ebenezer from a grassy knoll when he walks out to his barn one evening. Hell, coordinate a drone strike. It's not like they don't have the resources to make that happen. Do the same thing to Harry, like the end montage from the Godfather.
Or how about some poison? Eb probably drinks from a well. Dump some arsenic in there, and he's toast, Wizard recovery or not. Hide some snakes in his truck. Dig some punji pits on his front lawn. If you don't care about getting caught, there is no reason to set up the magical equivalent of a Rube Goldberg Machine to get him or any other individual wizard dead.
Hell, they could've just had Peabody or Christos lace all of the food in the Ostentatiatory with iocaine (yes, I know it's not real) and take them all down at once. The right kind of poison will act too quickly for Listens to Wind to do anything about it.
But no! No. They had to do this whole operation with the whole world watching to prove something that would net them some dubious benefit in the war—take down a couple of heavy hitters, do something flashy—rather than get the job done. It's not even a particularly impressive spell; it's launched by chucking away hundreds of lives. And it still took hours upon hours to set up, with weeks of prep time. Of course it's going to be huge and effective. Hell, a penny-ante sorcerer was able to pull off a reasonable facsimile of the spell by using a thunderstorm. Why didn't they just do that? Instead, they set this up to brag about using a nuke to kill two wizards. Bravo?
I mean, if Harry's bloodline was sufficiently related to enough of the wizard population and they were able to kill, like, a third of the White Council, then sure. But nowhere is that indicated; Harry's Grandma was a vanilla mortal, per Word of Jim. Unless Malcolm's parents (or sibling) is still running around and proves to be important, I fail to see any viable reason to do this other than insanity.
Therefore, I submit that they were manipulated into doing it in the first place by either Martin (which I find unlikely; I don't think he had enough influence to pull that off—it'd be like Eldest Fetch (spymaster/assassin) manipulating Mab), or the Black Council.
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I personally think it is a combination of the overkill argument posted by Mr. Death and the need to make a statement. This war was started by one man who refused to back down and the Reds have not been able to put the White Council away despite their big victories (Archangel, attack on the hospital, etc). I think that had the ritual not happened, and the war continued, the Reds would have won due to their ability to replenish their ranks. Their victory would have come with some horrendous losses though due to the power levels of the white council, but superior numbers would have carried the day. They come out the victors, but don't look the greatest. It was a costly, messy war that may leave them open to another group like the Fomer.
To preserve themselves, the Reds needed a quick end to the war and a statement to all the other groups to stay away. The ritual was overkill, but it got them the spectacular death of the man who started this war and one of the WC's biggest hitters. It may even convince the White Council to admit defeat (like the nukes in WWII). At the least, when combined with the biological warfare the White Council could be defeated in short order.
This ritual gives the Reds revenge on the man who started the war, revenge on the man who has done them great harm in the war, a spectacular statement, and a nuclear deterrent. Other posters have mentioned the ritual's drawbacks, but remember that the Red King was suffering from blood lust which was certainly impairing his thoughts and actions. It is certainly possible that some of his lords were similarly affected. This could have made the ritual look even more attractive to them considering the amount of sacrifices that had to go into it.
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Kindler: What you have to remember is that with Wizards, quality > quantity, and Ebenezer and Harry are not just "two dudes."
One is the Blackstaff, probably one of the most deadly wizards on the planet who is personally responsible for nuking a Red Court warlord and his whole retinue, and just generally responsible for a whole hell of a lot of dead Red Court. He's also one of the leaders of the White Council.
The other is a war hero already and an inspiration to a large portion of the White Council; he is growing in power, and he's probably the direct influence and inspiration for a lot of the front-line fighters, like Ramirez.
It's not taking out "two dudes." It's like taking out the President and his cabinet, and breaking the US's nuclear weapons all in one go. Remember that of the 1000 or so wizards in the White Council, only a fraction of them are combat capable, and only a fraction of those come anywhere near Ebenezer or Harry's ability.
So the Red Court isn't just taking out "two dudes." They're taking out two extremely important weapons, both physically and morale-wise.
As for the wards? You're right, they don't know he's at Edinburgh, but at the same time, they can't afford to assume he's not. You don't win a fight by preparing to face an opponent's bare-minimum defenses; you win it by preparing to face him at his best. Anything less and they face the extremely real risk of Ebenezer going, "You call that a spell? I'll show you a spell," and dropping another satellite on their heads.
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Agree with overkill for Eb. At whichever fight it was (maybe right before Molly's execution?), Langtry was warding the reds off singlehandedly. Eb can kill lots of reds at once. I think Langtry is best Senior Council in defense, and Eb is best offense. Also, apparently the spell either couldn't reach people in NeverNever or was really weakened there. Even if the whole ritual was a trap (I guess to get Eb & Harry out of Edinborough but still in the physical realm), that is awfully specific timing & planning needed. If Harry hadn't shown up, would they have just kept sacrificing people until he did? Called the ritual off and gone home? Fired the spell and just hoped?
So, let's say it is overkill for Eb and Harry. The actual target is someone who they know will not be in the NeverNever, who they can't reach to do a non-magic kill, who has powerful defenses and/or a very distant link to the victim.
The target is Merlin, imprisoned in Demonreach. The Blackstaff, like the notebooks, has always been passed from parent to (grand)-child, so Harry is a direct blood descendant of Merlin (my WAG, not canon). And Merlin is either part source of Demonreach's power, or a keystone to the spell (spell must be cast at multiple points in time, and the caster must remain in the warded area?) So killing him will let Nemesis free everything under Demonreach.
or not. My WAG
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Kindler: What you have to remember is that with Wizards, quality > quantity, and Ebenezer and Harry are not just "two dudes."
One is the Blackstaff, probably one of the most deadly wizards on the planet who is personally responsible for nuking a Red Court warlord and his whole retinue, and just generally responsible for a whole hell of a lot of dead Red Court. He's also one of the leaders of the White Council.
The other is a war hero already and an inspiration to a large portion of the White Council; he is growing in power, and he's probably the direct influence and inspiration for a lot of the front-line fighters, like Ramirez.
It's not taking out "two dudes." It's like taking out the President and his cabinet, and breaking the US's nuclear weapons all in one go. Remember that of the 1000 or so wizards in the White Council, only a fraction of them are combat capable, and only a fraction of those come anywhere near Ebenezer or Harry's ability.
So the Red Court isn't just taking out "two dudes." They're taking out two extremely important weapons, both physically and morale-wise.
As for the wards? You're right, they don't know he's at Edinburgh, but at the same time, they can't afford to assume he's not. You don't win a fight by preparing to face an opponent's bare-minimum defenses; you win it by preparing to face him at his best. Anything less and they face the extremely real risk of Ebenezer going, "You call that a spell? I'll show you a spell," and dropping another satellite on their heads.
Granted, Harry and Ebenezer are two highly visible, important players, and killing them both would be a big morale boost. I'm not saying that killing them isn't valuable, but the way tried to do it was dumb. There was no reason to even bother with magic in the first place. The benefits of the ritual were much, much lower than the risk and the cost. I prescribe to the Eeb's school of pragmatic villainy: low-risk murder attempts in enough quantity to get the job done.
Even as a show of force, it wouldn't have been impressive. Like I said before, what are they going to do, brag? "I killed a Senior Council Member and all it took was a thousand human sacrifices and weeks of preparation, alongside a coordinated assault against the White Council with a biological agent that made them sick!" Who are they even trying to impress? It's not like they're best friends with anyone in the supernatural community; the White Court hates them, the Denarians think of them as little more than parasites, and Faerie has nothing but contempt for them.
Maybe as a nuclear deterrent, but I don't know of many of the Council's family situations. It seems to me that the curse requires either a blood relative or direct DNA, like the Storm Front curse. How is that any better than any other magical assault? I get that it would work if Eb was behind the Edinburg wards, sure. But, again, the cost-benefit ratio is way, way skewed to the "cost" side. Imagine how much money they had to spend to get this done without mortal authorities knowing anything about it.
Even if they don't value the human sacrifices, which I get, the whole approach is just needlessly complicated for what they're trying to accomplish. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that Kincaid would even take the contract, given his animosity toward Ebenezer.
To me, that means either their goal isn't what Harry says it is, or they were manipulated into doing it.
Now, however, I'm thinking about it in terms of the Whole Pie; Martin delivers the Fellowship of Saint Giles to the Red King at this point, so if it was coordinated, it makes more sense to me.
But shouldn't the Red King and the Lord of the Outer Night be prepared to capitalize on this? A series of coordinated attacks—the disease, the Fellowship crumbling, and McCoy and Harry going down—should be followed, immediately, with a sweeping assault. It doesn't look like they were doing that. It looked like they were throwing a party before they'd won—and they could have won, if they were smart about it.
I dunno. Maybe Talby16—welcome to the Forums, by the way!—is right in that the blood addiction and mental instability is what guided their approach to this.
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The curse would hit McCoy even hidden behind the wards of headquarters, any chance such an act would harm or weaken those wards. If the rcv could deal with the council place of power, the war would be just about won.
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The curse would hit McCoy even hidden behind the wards of headquarters, any chance such an act would harm or weaken those wards. If the rcv could deal with the council place of power, the war would be just about won.
Yeah, put it this way: A bullet designed to go through armor isn't going to leave the armor intact.
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Yeah, put it this way: A bullet designed to go through armor isn't going to leave the armor intact.
Eh... "Through" and "Around" are tough to quantify in this case. It's possible the spell can somehow magically teleport past the armor on its course towards the target. Or sneak through a gap in the armor. Or whatever. It doesn't necessarily have to just punch through it leaving a hole.
Though it certainly could as well, if Jim decides that's how things work.
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One is the Blackstaff, probably one of the most deadly wizards on the planet who is personally responsible for nuking a Red Court warlord and his whole retinue, and just generally responsible for a whole hell of a lot of dead Red Court. He's also one of the leaders of the White Council.
The other is a war hero already and an inspiration to a large portion of the White Council; he is growing in power, and he's probably the direct influence and inspiration for a lot of the front-line fighters, like Ramirez.
It's not taking out "two dudes." It's like taking out the President and his cabinet, and breaking the US's nuclear weapons all in one go. Remember that of the 1000 or so wizards in the White Council, only a fraction of them are combat capable, and only a fraction of those come anywhere near Ebenezer or Harry's ability.
So the Red Court isn't just taking out "two dudes." They're taking out two extremely important weapons, both physically and morale-wise.
I think you are vastly overstating your case with these two. First, how well do non-members of the White Council's Senior Council know about the office of the Blackstaff? Heck, even Harry was somewhat sketchy on the concept, so is Eb's position and power level truly well-known? I don't think we have seen anything in the books to indicate that any of the other supernatural entities know what the deal is with the WC's Blackstaff. And even if they do know it, would the rank and file of the Red Court know enough about him to be sufficiently wowed by the bloodline curse taking him out? Second, Harry "started" the war, but he's not the most well-known and capable wizard warrior. Morgan held that role. He was the one who carved a path almost to the Red King himself. Morgan would have been the name that would have wowed folks, not Harry. Harry is well-known in the supernatural world as a thorn in the side of the White Council and something of a black sheep to them.
If the RC was acting as you are stating, they would have targeted the Merlin and/or Ancient Mai. Those are the ones who have name recognition and "wow factor" as being the most powerful and thus, the most impactful. The rest of the supernatural community would not have been impressed with the scale of the spell to kill two mortals, one of whom most consider to be just a pain in the backside thug.
And Kindler is right, this level of overkill to get these two specifically is stupid. If they were truly the targets, there are literally hundreds of ways to do it that are more effective and easier. 2 guys with flamethrowers showing up to Harry's boardinghouse could have taken care of him, and a whole bunch of claymores around Eb's truck set to go off when their electrical circuit is disrupted would take care of him after the Ramps called him and said "hi there - we just roasted your grandson alive".
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Even if Eb's status as Blackstaff isn't well known (and we know that at least some of the Rampires know, because they tell Harry as much) He's still a member of the Senior Council, one of the Biggest heavyweights the Council has. taking him out is a major blow.
And you're really underselling Harry here. We know that he's kinda a bumbling idiot, but from the outside he's pretty terrifying, and he has a pretty badass rep in-universe.
See; A Bunch of Senior Wardens with 3 SC members at their back being Nervous about fighting him in TC, Cowl wanting to find out how good he is in DB, One of the Rampires top assassins running in terror at the sight of him in Changes, Molly pointing out in GS that a whole host of baddies just skipped over Chicago because they didn't want to tangle with "Mad Wizard Dresden", Eldest Gruff telling Harry that the Sidhe tell stories about him, etc, etc.
Like, we know his rep is overblown, but they don't.
Besides which, neither of them are that easy to kill. Like, so what if you do show up at Harry's house with a flamethrower? Assuming that he doesn't spot you coming (not an impossibility given Mouse is around) you find yourself burnt alive because remember, wards are a thing- and even if they weren't, Harry's shield is good enough to laugh that off anyway by this point in the series.
But yes, it would be overkill- if they weren't trying to punch though enough mystical defenses to stop anyone lower on the totem poll then freaking Mab.
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With regards to Ebenezer, also remember that Kincaid knew him and his work. Every major group has someone like the Blackstaff and it is probable that they have a basic knowledge of each other. They are all in the same line of work.
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I think you are vastly overstating your case with these two. First, how well do non-members of the White Council's Senior Council know about the office of the Blackstaff? Heck, even Harry was somewhat sketchy on the concept, so is Eb's position and power level truly well-known? I don't think we have seen anything in the books to indicate that any of the other supernatural entities know what the deal is with the WC's Blackstaff. And even if they do know it, would the rank and file of the Red Court know enough about him to be sufficiently wowed by the bloodline curse taking him out? Second, Harry "started" the war, but he's not the most well-known and capable wizard warrior. Morgan held that role. He was the one who carved a path almost to the Red King himself. Morgan would have been the name that would have wowed folks, not Harry. Harry is well-known in the supernatural world as a thorn in the side of the White Council and something of a black sheep to them.
If the RC was acting as you are stating, they would have targeted the Merlin and/or Ancient Mai. Those are the ones who have name recognition and "wow factor" as being the most powerful and thus, the most impactful. The rest of the supernatural community would not have been impressed with the scale of the spell to kill two mortals, one of whom most consider to be just a pain in the backside thug.
And Kindler is right, this level of overkill to get these two specifically is stupid. If they were truly the targets, there are literally hundreds of ways to do it that are more effective and easier. 2 guys with flamethrowers showing up to Harry's boardinghouse could have taken care of him, and a whole bunch of claymores around Eb's truck set to go off when their electrical circuit is disrupted would take care of him after the Ramps called him and said "hi there - we just roasted your grandson alive".
In fairness, Dresden is highly visible in Chicago, and has a wide reputation, especially among the rank and file Red Court, whom Harry would eat for breakfast. People have heard of him before. And Eb has a big name too (not literally; "Eb" is pretty short) beyond being the Blackstaff. He is a Senior Council member, but he's the youngest, though he's well known as a magical brawler. When the White Council was chasing down Morgan, they sent McCoy, as he's one of the only ones who can be reasonably assured of beating him head on—and Morgan was the one who almost killed the Red King.
The point being that they are high-value targets, but they just aren't high enough to justify the overly elaborate approach. Certainly worth killing, just with a simpler method.
Given leadership that is even remotely competent during the war, they should have annihilated the White Council, simply with attrition and guerrilla tactics. They obviously didn't have that in the Red King. They were so focused on zerg rushing that they didn't bother to be smart about it. Notably, the one time they were cagey, in the background of Dead Beat, they managed to kill a third of the active Wardens. It cost them a lot to do it, but if they had been doing that the whole time, they would've won in a matter of a year or two.
Similarly efficient and simple tactics would have been more than sufficient to get rid of Eb and Harry, if that was what they were trying to do. Charging up for a big show to take them down in one shot is a waste of time. If they shoot and miss, so what? They lose half a dozen nobodies. It's not like Eb or Harry is going to be more at war with the Red Court. And if at first you don't succeed...
I should also note from my previous post about Martin "delivering the Fellowship"—that was a ruse, and it wouldn't have worked even if the Red King were poised to strike, but the Red King didn't know that.
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Martin used an grandiose spell on a blood-addled mind to achieve a desired effect.
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A couple of things:
1. Remember that in Changes, Martin claims to have dug up this old spell & set the ritual up. We also know that Ariana was the sponsor - Harry & Eb are the Wizards she hates the most due to the personal nature of their war (killing child & grandchild). We sort of know what Martin & Ariana’s motivations were...
2. I fully think that the reason Martin gave to the RCV for overpowering the spell was to break through the wards at Edinburgh & get Eb. This would send a message to the SC - none of you are safe, anywhere. This ritual could be done 6 more times to get rid of the entire SC.... & there’s relatively little they can do about it. That’s a pretty chilling thought.
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A couple of things:
1. Remember that in Changes, Martin claims to have dug up this old spell & set the ritual up. We also know that Ariana was the sponsor - Harry & Eb are the Wizards she hates the most due to the personal nature of their war (killing child & grandchild). We sort of know what Martin & Ariana’s motivations were...
2. I fully think that the reason Martin gave to the RCV for overpowering the spell was to break through the wards at Edinburgh & get Eb. This would send a message to the SC - none of you are safe, anywhere. This ritual could be done 6 more times to get rid of the entire SC.... & there’s relatively little they can do about it. That’s a pretty chilling thought.
You need to capture a blood descendant for the curse to work. Maggie presented an opportunity.
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It seems the curse not only killed the rcv, but it literally unmade them. I wonder if it touched something beyond even the court, some kind of patron or progenitor that aided n the creation of them. I doubt it would have killed it, but deeply weakening or wounding it most definitely.
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The bloodline curse is ritual magic, what Harry calls the cosmic vending machine, you put in the quarter and you get the result. The power raised is more to appease whatever entity was actually doing the real magic. I think Victor Sells was doing an actual spell adapted from the ritual curse so needed the thunderstorms. Just like Lord Raith's entropy curse.
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You need to capture a blood descendant for the curse to work. Maggie presented an opportunity.
I'm not sure that the White Council would be aware of that limitation (or be in such a state of mind as to care about it).
Just as Harry's reputation as a badass is overblown among the Red Court, so might have been the Red Court's reputation among the White Council.
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I am sure that most if not all of the SC have descendants. All you need is one blood connection and after several hundred years of life there is bound to be one of each that can be identified and snagged.
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When victor sells used his curse on someone having sex, it struck that individual as well. I wonder if the power of the curse is powerful enough that if it hit McCoy in headquarters, it might hit other wizards in there, potentially any covered by the wards.
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Only if Eb is getting busy, which would be pretty good at his age!
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With it as overpowered as it was, could the bloodline curse at CI have had a time factor as well? Meaning maybe they were targeting the actual merlin, not just his decedents.
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With it as overpowered as it was, could the bloodline curse at CI have had a time factor as well? Meaning maybe they were targeting the actual merlin, not just his decedents.
Are you suggesting that it could possibly reach back in time to kill Merlin? If so, none of the other people Harry talks to (Mab, Odin, Lea, Uriel) realize it or decide to mention that factoid to Harry.
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Isn't Merlin stated to be still kinda sorta alive anyway? Also, isn't Harry being related to him entirely speculation?
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I think the answer to both is yes. The legend says that Merlin was tricked, maybe, into a deep sleep. And, Harry's ancestry is a popular theme due to the actions of Eb and Maggie Sr and how they have impacted Harry.
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I think the answer to both is yes. The legend says that Merlin was tricked, maybe, into a deep sleep. And, Harry's ancestry is a popular theme due to the actions of Eb and Maggie Sr and how they have impacted Harry.
And supported by Eb's relation to Harry and his possession of the journals.
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Considering the 'squishy' word usage... I think Maybe he's in his own pocket of time and space at DR keeping it running as it's source of power, but unable to leave because of it. He's out in a different way for a similar reasoning..
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He is the lynchpin holding the DR gates close?
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He is the lynchpin holding the DR gates close?
..... The Keymaster? ;D
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And supported by Eb's relation to Harry and his possession of the journals.
Which assumes that there's only ever a parent-child lineage from Merlin to Eb, and while 100% of Eb's mentees have been his family, he's the only one we see who has a blood relation between student and teacher.
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..... The Keymaster? ;D
And, we know who is the Gatekeeper.
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Merlin was said to use time magic, or it was inferred, so if McCoy is his descendants, it might mean at somepoint Merlin could be vulnerable to the curse.
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I still think Eb and Harry were the targets since Ortega took it real personal about her husband.
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I still think Eb and Harry were the targets since Ortega took it real personal about her husband.
Revenge against Harry for starting the war and against Eb for killing her husband (with the side benefit of taking out the Blackstaff) is enough of a reason for the Duchess to have suggested using the bloodline curse. To have the bloodline curse go any farther or target anyone else means that either the Duchess is involved in the Black Council or being manipulated by the Black Council to further their goals.
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What is the general consensus regarding the Black Council and Nemesis? Are they one and the same? Are they different? Are they collaborating?
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My personal opinion is that the Black Council is working with the goal to take down the White Council and becoming major players in the supernatural world. Nemesis has infected the Black Council and is using them to further their goal of breaching the Outer Gates and invading our world.
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So, collaboration with different goals?
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So, collaboration with different goals?
Thats my guess. The only question is if it is known or unknown collaboration.
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Well considering the way that supernatural beings work; I would say that the players are getting played.
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What is the general consensus regarding the Black Council and Nemesis? Are they one and the same? Are they different? Are they collaborating?
If you want a general consensus start a poll :)
I think the black council as Harry experiences it is just Harry's label for nemesis activity but their might have been something like a black council in the past.
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Umm, okay, the way I understand things is like this:
1.there are 3 walkers who are leaders among the Outsiders.
2.we have seen physical forms of Behind and Before.
3. The 3rd walker is He-who-walks-Beside.
4. He-who-walks-Beside is either Nemesis or closely associated with Nemesis.
5.the Black Council is a name that Harry calls those that are stirring up trouble.
6.we have a small list of bad guys associated with the Black Council
7. each major supernatural power seems to have a BC traitor in its midst.
8.the Black Council are either working with Nemesis or comprised of members that have been Nem-infected
9.Harry may or may not be a starborn who is believed to have power over Outsiders.
10. Many casebooks involve Harry taking down BC or Nemesis plots.
Are there any key points I am missing or completely off-the-mark about?