Author Topic: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?  (Read 9992 times)

Offline Avernite

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2017, 10:06:54 AM »
I'd add that, not only did the active parties play a role - a lot of people acted by not opposing their counterparts.

Who's the natural enemy of the Winter Knight and Mab's handmaiden acting so brazenly? Summer. And they were not there.
Who's the natural enemy of the Knights of the Cross? The Denarians. And they were not there.

The Red Court was really not being particularly risky, they were insulated from anything but every other active member of the supernatural community acting or not-acting together in an effort to crush them. And even then, it was pretty damned close.

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2017, 12:58:21 AM »
Quote
they were not even particularly secretive about the fact that they were all gathering there.  With the senior councils information gathering ability its almost a sure thing that they would find out.


What makes you say that? The council didn't know; Eb was shocked to learn it, no more than a half hour before Dresden appeared on the scene. Dresden petitioned every one he knew to find the info out, and had to get it from a literal god. The Fellowship of Saint Giles had no idea, and it seems like they're the ones who track the courts activity most closely. Everything all points to that they arranged it and organized with great secrecy and took out all potential observers.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2017, 05:31:31 AM »
Makes me wonder if Harry's part of the "source" bloodline.  Meaning that all wizards are connected like branches on a tree, but Harry's bloodline could run all the way to the root, a more direct connection.  A curse like that on him, would do to the White Council, as it did to the Red Court.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline raidem

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 09:06:45 PM »
Some wonder if it was Vadderung himself that was the ultimate target of the death curse.  He could be the main progenitor of a great many wizards.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2017, 01:37:18 AM »
Some wonder if it was Vadderung himself that was the ultimate target of the death curse.  He could be the main progenitor of a great many wizards.

Possible...  Mostly because I think Vadderung is Merlin.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2017, 08:55:28 AM »
Possible...  Mostly because I think Vadderung is Merlin.
Man, Vadderung is Odin, is Santa Claus, is he also Jesus and Superman too.
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Offline raidem

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2017, 05:21:31 PM »
Quote
“Your actions have already done so,” I said.
The wispiest shade of a smile line touched the corners of his eyes. “Ah. You have a certain amount of perception, then.”
“I used to think so,” I said. “Then I started getting older and realized how clueless I am.”
“The beginning of wisdom, or so Socrates would have it,” Hades said. “He says so every time we have brunch.”
“Wow,” I said. “Socrates is, uh, down here?”
Hades arched an eyebrow. He lifted his free hand, palm up.
“Right,” I said. “Sorry. Um. Do you mind if I ask . . . ?”
“His fate, in the Underworld?” Hades said.
I nodded.
Hades’ mouth ticked up at one corner. “People question him.”
The dog took note that it was no longer being petted, and the nearest head lifted up to nudge itself beneath Hades’ hand again. The Lord of the Underworld absentmindedly went back to petting it, like any man might with his dog.
I like to read this with Hades really being Socrates.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2017, 05:38:27 PM »
Man, Vadderung is Odin, is Santa Claus, is he also Jesus and Superman too.

Well I will respond to your sarcasm with words of Jim.  "Odin has many hats".
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 05:40:26 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2017, 08:59:09 PM »
Apologies, the sarcasm was meant with a light touch and humor.
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Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2017, 07:31:14 PM »
Hmm back to the original question. I agree, I do think there was a lot more going on in this fight than Harry realized. After the fight, Eb himself says after Harry recognizes Vadderung that he [Odin] rarely gets involved these days but when he does, something big is about to go down.

On a grander scale, this was the Home Team neutralizing the Outsiders’ opening salvo - as others have pointed out, the fight involved the coming together of many different factions against the RCV, because the Ramps had begun to ally themselves with Outsiders, allowing TWG to intervene more directly through the KoTC & Uriel.

So this fight was essentially a proxy fight between the agents of TWG & the Outsiders using agents & cats paws. Since the home team won, the Outsiders resort to plan B which we see in any cold Days (breaching the prison on Demonreach).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 10:59:37 PM by kbrizzle »

Offline Froklsnt

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2017, 04:19:39 PM »
Hmm back to the original question. I agree, I do think there was a lot more going on in this fight than Harry realized. After the fight, Eb himself says after Harry recognizes Vadderung that he [Odin] rarely gets involved these days but when he does, something big is about to go down.

On a grander scale, this was the Home Team neutralizing the Outsiders’ opening salvo - as others have pointed out, the fight involved the coming together of many different factions against the RCV, because the Ramps had begun to ally themselves with Outsiders, allowing TWG to intervene more directly through the KoTC & Uriel.

So this fight was essentially a proxy fight between the agents of TWG & the Outsiders using agents & cats paws. Since the home team won, the Outsiders resort to plan B which we see in any cold Days (breaching the prison on Demonreach).

I think that you've got it. But in addition to the TWG, this was also the chance for Mab and Odin to also take direct action against the Ramps / Outsiders / Blank Council. All of them grafting themselves onto Harry's cause as a convenient excuse to make a strike they desperately wanted to make anyway. And the best insight you added was that Cold Days represents plan B for this side after CI fails so spectacularly.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2017, 08:29:46 PM »
If it was Plan B, it was hurried. My guess is that they wanted to take advantage of an inactive Harry Dresden/Winter Knight.
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Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2017, 01:11:16 AM »
Thanks Froklsnt! Yup, I think some of the factions who are clearly in the anti-Outsider camp like the Winter Court, Vadderung, the Grey Council had been wanting to strike at the Red court for a while (I’m sure Mab wanted to after the Ramps encroached on her territory in SK) but were probably waiting for the RCV to exhaust themselves in the fight with the White Council. TWG/ Uriel instead helped create a successful ambush that has the necessary firepower to succeed before the Ramps could take out a Starborn (the world’s most potent weapon against Outsiders).

@wardenferry

I do think it was hurried, & furthermore planned by Maeve, so somewhat sloppier than the elegance of Mab that we’re used to. Harry surviving Changes & coming out even stronger than before in CD must’ve alarmed the Black Council - they saw that Alfred was beginning to be of real help to Harry (kept them physically alive after a gun shot wound for 6 months, with help of course) so they had to neutralize him before he became fully aware of the islands capabilities & secrets - being ancient & brilliant, Nfected Maeve has concocted the plan so that keeping Harry the Starborn in check is almost a secondary benefit to the Black Council from this plan. Primary being of course, the rampant death & destruction created by the prisoners on the island, some of whom may be out & out Outsider allies.

Offline Con

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2017, 09:06:04 AM »
Consider the possibility that anyone around Harry and Eb when it went off would be caught in the shockwaves. Precision strikes have collateral why not dark magic missiles

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2017, 09:39:34 AM »
Maeve couldn't go at Mab directly; so, she figured creating  some chaos might do the job for her. Maeve was a very lazy planner.
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