Author Topic: bonies conception is in the book small favors  (Read 3647 times)

Offline pcpoet

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 829
  • life is a dream
    • View Profile
bonies conception is in the book small favors
« on: September 28, 2017, 06:33:19 AM »
was reading small favors and I think I pinpointed the conception bonnie.

in Small favors Dresden  is researching the attack on him and the carpenter children. In the book  Dresden as narrator to his  story and comments on Bob and the romance novels that he reads. I believe it is  at the point that Dresden speculates on the possibility that bob would want to have a family and children that bonnie is conceived .

Jim butcher then inserts into the story Dresden finding a Calvin and hobs story book on the  basement floor.  The type of stuff that is easily dismissed by us the reader but is as important as the Angel Uriel or Bob the janitor leaving a copy of JR tokens The tail of two towers at the hospital for Dresden to find. The comic book is about a little kid and his imaginary friend hobs a tiger and some times stuffed toy.

Later on at the end of the book we discover that Dresden has come to the conclusion that Lucifer actually interfered helping  the Denarians .   I think that lashiel was suppose reassert control of Dresden but  because Lucifer had  involved himself it allowed Uriel to act upon what was going to happen.

 So instead of lashiel gaining control and freezing Dresden when commanded to  by  nicodemus we have the conception of bonnie. Who is actually the mixing of spirits from Bob and lashiels shadow to  creating another spirit of intellect or possibly even a baby angel.  At the end of the book  Euriel tells Dresden while being bob the janitor that he helped Dresden  ih the fight by altering in an equal way cosmicly speaking to the help that Lucifer gave out.   He also said he took the long view of his help.  That is when he dsapears and Dresden fids an old copy of JR Tolkens “Two towers”.
It isat this point dresdens head starts to hurt as he acts as the surrogate wound for BOBs and Lashiels child.

Remember also that bob realy does not have a personalty of his own. Bob takes his personality from who ever has his skull. If Dresden had not speculated about children and family for bob. Euriel would not of been able to effect lashiels reassertion of control on Dresden by combining bobs spirit and lashiels shadow.

I think  when bob asked harry to carve him a emrgencie home it was because Bob knew about bonnie.
I think when mab nade a deal with bonnie it was to keep the natureof her existence a secret in exchange for heeping to keep harry alive.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 06:57:16 AM by pcpoet »
I am who I am that's all that I am from my head to my toe that's all that I am.

Offline Con

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1305
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2017, 06:57:53 AM »
Nice foreshadowing. I'd forgotten about Harry speculating Bob might want to concieve, but I think it was just an example of Harry's subconscious trying to get Harry to consider the idea as he was already pregnant.

ID Harry confirms Bonnea's conception was the act of love taking a bullet for Harry psychicly and that Harry able to play the guitar perfectly was a symptom of Bonnea's presence.

Offline pcpoet

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 829
  • life is a dream
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2017, 07:28:40 AM »
harry being able to play the gutar was the seed but I still think that it was Uriel intervening that allowed this to take place. Dresden's mind was heeling and if lash had remained lash when nicodemus commanded her to stop Dresden as lashiels shadow she would f had to listen. I am convinced that Uriel played a visit to bob and intervened with bob. the act of thinking aout children and bob allowed for the interaction
I am who I am that's all that I am from my head to my toe that's all that I am.

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2017, 07:34:22 AM »
Nice foreshadowing. I'd forgotten about Harry speculating Bob might want to concieve, but I think it was just an example of Harry's subconscious trying to get Harry to consider the idea as he was already pregnant.

ID Harry confirms Bonnea's conception was the act of love taking a bullet for Harry psychicly and that Harry able to play the guitar perfectly was a symptom of Bonnea's presence.
Query and statement, Q: is Bonie uh... Soulfilled vs Bob? He's an intellect spirit sure, but different origins wthi her's being mortal and angelic.

S: the idea for the song post death mirrors a voyager episode
(click to show/hide)
Star Trek actually has a few elements drawn here towards great story making, then again, We have a literal Mirror Mirror book to follow.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2017, 07:36:58 AM »
harry being able to play the gutar was the seed but I still think that it was Uriel intervening that allowed this to take place. Dresden's mind was heeling and if lash had remained lash when nicodemus commanded her to stop Dresden as lashiels shadow she would f had to listen. I am convinced that Uriel played a visit to bob and intervened with bob. the act of thinking aout children and bob allowed for the interaction
Lash was gone when Nic *tried* to command her in SmF. Bonie was growing, but no where near complete.
Does make me wonder if the Blastijg Rod theft wasn't added by bonie back then too. To give her cover from Bob's sight.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Froklsnt

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Mister, where I come from, there is no try.
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2017, 12:58:04 PM »
Fascinating idea, but I don't think it's the moment of conception, as Con stated above. Harry's guitar playing at the end of White Night is after Lash died, but clearly shows another presence in his head almost immediately after her death. But it seems safe to assume that Jim was deliberately foreshadowing, and that perhaps Bonnie helped put that idea into Harry's head, as a way to prepare him / make her presence known.

Actually, I think Id Harry is a better candidate for putting that thought in Harry's mind. Id Harry knows all about Bonnie, and it's well established that he's responsible for a lot of Harry's intuition. Even if conscious Harry didn't get it at the time, it was a good way to prime him.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 07:10:24 PM by Froklsnt »

Offline dspringer1

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2017, 03:25:01 PM »
The act of creation was at the point where Harry was held fast by the will of the Outsiders in the Grotto and Lash sacrificed herself to allow him to act.  It was her one act of selfless love -- and thus the spark of creation in this matter.  Whether Uriel helped or not is irrelevant in my mind.  She choose. 

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3813
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 03:26:11 PM »
and if lash had remained lash when nicodemus commanded her to stop Dresden as lashiels shadow she would f had to listen.

I don't agree with that. Lash didn't have to obey anyone by the end - she literally could not have chosen to take the bullet for Harry if she wasn't capable of defying the purposes of the original Fallen by that point.

Besides which, with the Fallen acting at cross-purposes as often as cooperating, how would Nic have had command authority over another Fallen's shadow? He expected to be obeyed because as far as he was concerned, the shadow was still trying to turn Harry - essentially, he figured the shadow would go along with his plan to paralyze Harry and carry him away because it would help her agenda. It's not that he has a compulsion over all shadows, it's that he was banking Lasciel still had a compulsion over Lash.

Offline khadgar4606

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 08:08:10 AM »
correct me if i wrong but did lash said healing from the wound but takes time so my theory is lash is still in the harrys mind but way to deep that no one knows where she is except bonnie which she move to new home

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2017, 03:07:27 PM »
correct me if i wrong but did lash said healing from the wound but takes time so my theory is lash is still in the harrys mind but way to deep that no one knows where she is except bonnie which she move to new home

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that after White Night, Lash withdrew deep into Harry's brain to recover from her nonfatal wounds? Wasn't this disproved by Bonnie's birth? I was under the impression that she was created because Lash was destroyed, and that the sacrifice (meaning terminal) was a necessary part of her conception.

Tangential but related to the thread topic: how did Bob miss Bonnie's presence? He gives Harry an examination at the end of Small Favor and remarks that bits of his soul are missing from using Soulfire. Shouldn't he have seen another entity growing in his head? Especially if she's like Bob, and kind of tuned into the same wavelength?

Offline Froklsnt

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Mister, where I come from, there is no try.
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2017, 07:19:40 PM »
Tangential but related to the thread topic: how did Bob miss Bonnie's presence? He gives Harry an examination at the end of Small Favor and remarks that bits of his soul are missing from using Soulfire. Shouldn't he have seen another entity growing in his head? Especially if she's like Bob, and kind of tuned into the same wavelength?

There is pretty good evidence that Mab had messed with Bob's head in SmF as well as Harry's. Or at least that Bob was playing along with Mab. There's an excellent theory somewhere on the forum which makes a very compelling case that Mab masked Harry's memory of Little Chicago just like she did with his blasting rod. The key bit of evidence is that both are described as being under tarps when Harry tries to recall / interacts with them. Harry was down in his lab beating himself senseless over how he could find Thomas, and never thinks to try Little Chicago. And Bob was there helping him. and never suggests it. That to me suggests either that Bob got his mind messed with too, or at least that he's in on it, like his conversation with Thomas in Backup.

There's a second possibility too. Harry got "ice picks" to the temples when he interacts with Mouse in the same period. Mouse also could have found Thomas (This is confirmed by Mouse later on). In both cases, Harry's mind has been altered to keep him from finding Thomas without having to go to Demonreach. The rationale goes that Mab wanted to get the Harry and the island acquainted for things down the road.  But "ice picks" is the telltale sign most associated with Bonnie. Perhaps Bonnie was already working with Mab back then. Or maybe Id Harry already was, he was wearing that snowflake lapel pin by the next time we saw him (albiet after Harry becomes the WK).

So, if some combination of Bob, Id Harry and Bonnie have been compelled by / bargained with Mab to keep Bonnie's presence secret, that would explain why Bob doesn't remark on her. Either she's actively hiding, perhaps with Id Harry's help, or Bob is willfully choosing not to comment on her presence. Or some combination of all three.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 07:53:48 PM by Froklsnt »

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2017, 09:48:52 PM »
I theorize Bonnie helped with taking the blasting rod in exchange for Mab helping her hide. Harry's headaches and pains are in virtually the same spots with similar icepick descriptions for both.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Tami Seven

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7737
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 04:08:04 AM »
The act of creation was at the point where Harry was held fast by the will of the Outsiders in the Grotto and Lash sacrificed herself to allow him to act.  It was her one act of selfless love -- and thus the spark of creation in this matter.  Whether Uriel helped or not is irrelevant in my mind.  She choose.

I would agree that Lasciel's sacrifice was the moment it happened.
War Cry -
"Thomas doesn't fight back, not even for an instant. In the end, it's not common sense that pulls me back from the brink, or even fear of being devoured by the Shoggoth....It's the look of unshakeable trust in my Brother's eyes, even as my hands tighten around his throat."

Offline peregrine

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8736
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 04:42:10 AM »
Ditto.

Possibly it's tied into it, that in doing what she did, she Chose her own destruction, in the same way that an angel going against its purpose Chooses to fall then and there.  That if she had elected to do what she did, even without the brain damage, she'd have been destroyed because of how radical a change it would be to her Nature.

Or possibly not.  You can justify a lot under the aegis of "need to keep the host alive so he can be turned later."  Plus, her Nature, such as it was, was imprinted on the malleable surface that was Harry's psyche, so it obviously wasn't as immutable as the true and proper Lasciel.

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 12:52:06 PM »
There is pretty good evidence that Mab had messed with Bob's head in SmF as well as Harry's. Or at least that Bob was playing along with Mab. There's an excellent theory somewhere on the forum which makes a very compelling case that Mab masked Harry's memory of Little Chicago just like she did with his blasting rod. The key bit of evidence is that both are described as being under tarps when Harry tries to recall / interacts with them. Harry was down in his lab beating himself senseless over how he could find Thomas, and never thinks to try Little Chicago. And Bob was there helping him. and never suggests it. That to me suggests either that Bob got his mind messed with too, or at least that he's in on it, like his conversation with Thomas in Backup.

There's a second possibility too. Harry got "ice picks" to the temples when he interacts with Mouse in the same period. Mouse also could have found Thomas (This is confirmed by Mouse later on). In both cases, Harry's mind has been altered to keep him from finding Thomas without having to go to Demonreach. The rationale goes that Mab wanted to get the Harry and the island acquainted for things down the road.  But "ice picks" is the telltale sign most associated with Bonnie. Perhaps Bonnie was already working with Mab back then. Or maybe Id Harry already was, he was wearing that snowflake lapel pin by the next time we saw him (albiet after Harry becomes the WK).

So, if some combination of Bob, Id Harry and Bonnie have been compelled by / bargained with Mab to keep Bonnie's presence secret, that would explain why Bob doesn't remark on her. Either she's actively hiding, perhaps with Id Harry's help, or Bob is willfully choosing not to comment on her presence. Or some combination of all three.

Harry isn't looking for Thomas in Small Favor because he's off pretending to be Harry most of the time; he's looking for him in the next book, Turn Coat. Harry uses Little Chicago shortly after Mab messes with his head, to send the Gruffs on the wild goose chase with Mister's help, so I don't think they could've removed that. What led him to the island was Nicodemus setting the meet there.

There's no real need to use Little Chicago in Turn Coat; Harry finds out that Thomas is missing, gets the lead from Vince Graver, follows it directly to the lawyer, soulgazes her, finds out that the White Court was involved, and heads to see Lara with Luccio. That's when the Skinwalker tells him that he's got Thomas, and gives him all the contact information he needs to set a meeting later on. He mentions that it would be near impossible to find the skinwalker with magic as a handwave, and has Lara try to trace the cell phone instead. Meanwhile, Harry's balancing dealing with Morgan and keeping him alive while finding the traitor. Little Chicago would just have taken him valuable time (I recall it taking him something like an hour or two to get ready to use it each time) when he's got other stuff to do.

I'm not saying it's totally impossible, but that the motivation and means behind it is sketchy, in my opinion.