Author Topic: Should I feel offended?  (Read 5485 times)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2015, 06:06:13 AM »
Quote
All characters countries appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons countries, living or dead, contemporary or historical is purely coincidental.

And we know that disclaimer is sometimes fiction as well.
And even more useful as real countries are the cliches about real countries. Some writers hide it better than others by combining, mixing and changing themes but it happens a lot.

Tolkien, Howard, Eddings. Especially in fantasy.
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Offline Dina

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2015, 05:09:36 PM »
Sully, thank you  :)
Missing you, Md 

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Offline Mith

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2015, 07:23:20 PM »
I guess where I sit is that I read TAW not as a future of humanity, but more of a alternate past in terms of cultures. 
I'll try to respond to this the best I can, but I am sure I will slip up in my words.

Steampunk (to my knowledge) tends to be heavily influenced by Victorian Age England and Europe if one goes international, so that is why the protagonists are all based on the UK and generally other European nations.  There are likely Steam punk stories that are based out of non-European countries, but I am not aware of any specific titles at this time. 

From what I can find, Spain at the time was in decline, and was one of the poorest countries in Europe at the loss of it's colonies, and could not readily compete with the UK.  The country was not able to easily develop itself to utilize it's own natural resources and fell behind on the world stage. 

Can the book be read as spreading bad stereotypes about Latin American governments?  I can understand that point of view, since a lot of the prejudice that can be cast against Spain can be cast against Latin America.  However, I am skeptical that Jim truly had any conscious or unconscious bias against Latin America or Spain in the context of the story.  I believe he drew his inspiration from the historical context of Spain in terms of culture, and so he has no intent in terms of spreading bad stereotypes or prejudice.
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Offline Sully

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2015, 07:34:02 PM »
((Dina  :-*))

Lack of malicious intent or genuine ignorance doesn't mean it can't be legitimately offensive, though.

I think some of the gay jokes in Dresden are cringeworthy bad(the earring conversation, especially).  If "being ____" is the punchline, it's probably an insensitive, bad joke.  Was it in character for Dresden?  Absolutely.  Do I think it was in poor taste and should've been left out?  Yes, yes I do.  Does it greatly upset me?  No.  Do I think Jim's editor should've gently said something like, 'you're making being gay a punchline, and that's kind of offensive.  You try to be inclusive in so many ways-are you sure you want this in here?' to try and convince him to cut that joke?  Yes.  Hell, for all I know, that conversation happened, and Jim decided to leave it in.

On a side note, that byplay actually confused me a bit, because Harry and Thomas used the whole Tomás thing as an explicit criticism of bigotry...and then Harry makes off-color jokes in poor taste. ::)

Offline Sully

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2015, 07:38:18 PM »
And we know that disclaimer is sometimes fiction as well.
And even more useful as real countries are the cliches about real countries. Some writers hide it better than others by combining, mixing and changing themes but it happens a lot.

Tolkien, Howard, Eddings. Especially in fantasy.

David Weber, too.  He's full of stuff.  "All fictional, no relation to living or dead people or events!  Really!"  Then you look at the names of things, some battles are lifted straight out of history, etc.  It works for his audience!  He sells lots of books!  It's clearly not a personal handicap, but c'mon.

(Rob S Pierre being a murderous tyrant?  Really?  Gosh, I never saw that coming...)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 07:40:22 PM by Sully »

Offline Dina

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #80 on: November 19, 2015, 07:48:34 PM »
(LOL, Rob S Pierre)
Missing you, Md 

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Offline Quantus

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2015, 04:49:22 PM »
((Dina  :-*))

Lack of malicious intent or genuine ignorance doesn't mean it can't be legitimately offensive, though.

I think some of the gay jokes in Dresden are cringeworthy bad(the earring conversation, especially).  If "being ____" is the punchline, it's probably an insensitive, bad joke.  Was it in character for Dresden?  Absolutely.  Do I think it was in poor taste and should've been left out?  Yes, yes I do.  Does it greatly upset me?  No.  Do I think Jim's editor should've gently said something like, 'you're making being gay a punchline, and that's kind of offensive.  You try to be inclusive in so many ways-are you sure you want this in here?' to try and convince him to cut that joke?  Yes.  Hell, for all I know, that conversation happened, and Jim decided to leave it in.

On a side note, that byplay actually confused me a bit, because Harry and Thomas used the whole Tomás thing as an explicit criticism of bigotry...and then Harry makes off-color jokes in poor taste. ::)
well, fwiw, when I read it I thought that the intended punchline was Harry's silly insecurities, rather than being gay.  But looking back it might not have been there; it would have taking a jab from murphy or somebody to solidify the target of the joke as his own fragile ego.  It would have in fact fit rather well with their budding flirtation in parts of the story.
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