at least in the Victorian times.
Well, it is never explicitly said in the book, as it is not said that Albion is England, but the echoes of the Spanish Armada are clear for me and there are also many Spanish names (Like "Ciervo").
I think Albion is an old name for the British Isles.Yeah, wiki has a few different possible etymologies for Albion, but it's an old name for Britain. Does anyone know about something similar for Aurora?
A lean, slick airship flying Albion's scarlet, azure, and white colors sailed up into view
I don't know. There was a mention about something existing for about two thousand years if I recall. I think we're dealing with another human colony situation, like Alera.There was a quote about trying to domesticate the silkweavers for two thousand years. It's hard to tell how exact that is though.
Anyone know of a lost fleet of multicultural ships? :P
Another point towards it being england
While Albion is quite obviously English in nature, there are scads of nations with those colors on their flagsYeah, but if the flag had been brown and yellow and purple it would have been a point against
I don't remember French names. Actually, I remember having seen one French name besides Bayard but I don't remember which one now.Itasca is a county from the state I lived in. I think it was a native American word
On the other hand, Itasca it's a name from USA if wikipedia serves right, but it was created from Latin.
That is your opinion, Aminar. I think they are Earth cultures all right.At best that's like saying Mad Max is misrepresenting Australians.
Hubby has began reading the book. He is struggling with it because he is irritated for the constant racism against the Aurorans (corrupt, inneficient). As we are Latin Americans and have Spanis inheritage he feels offended when the Spaniards are attacked. I've told him that the book only reflects the English point of view of British against Spain, at least in the Victorian times. So, it's accurate. He feels it is offensive anyway.No more than the Brits for being displayed as arrogant,racist, @sses, discriminating others based on perceived superiority?
I know you are not of Spanish descent, but do you think someone should be offended by a novel written by the point of view of something who hates your country? I actually loved this book but I am wondering if I should have resent its treatment of my people. I am being not patriot enough?
So my question is not about the particulars but about the general idea of "should we be offended when a book speaks poorly of our country, even if it is in the mindset of an enemy country?" What do you think?
I
I didn't realize they were depicted as more racist than others, in fact apparently Aurorans are more racist against warriorborns than Albionites. But even accepting it, yes, would they be right in be offended? Again, I don't want to discuss particularities, only if people should be offended by characters opinions, basically.In my opinion at least, the only reason someone should feel offended by what opinions are expressed by characters in a story is if you believe that the author is championing them as the "correct" view. Jim seems to be giving us characters that are consistent with the society that they come from.
That said, the point of the thread was not so much about my particular case with this book but about discussing if someone should be offended for the points of view of characters in a book, even if they are the main characters.
I tell giant, complicated, long-term LIES for a living, man. People pay me to manipulate their emotions--to make them laugh and cry, to cheer for the good guys and to hate the bad guys.
wyltok, Tsunami, thank you. Your posts have been very interesting and I appreciate that. Your insight about the reasons to keep reading are more or less the sane I thought, wyltok
Rygar, the Aurorans themselves that are depicted are military, so hubby and I don't care for them. The problem is that speaking of the government as unefficient and corrupted is spreading the stereotype of the Latino government (think the stereotype of the tropical country dictator). That is precisely what incensed my husband.
Itasca is a county from the state I lived in. I think it was a native American wordIf it's the town in Illinois, it was named for the Lake in Minnesota, which in turn was it was a combination of the latin word for Truth and Head.
"The Ojibwe name for "Lake Itasca" was Omashkoozo-zaaga'igan (Elk Lake);[1] this was changed by Henry Schoolcraft to "Itasca", coined from a combination of the Latin words veritas ("truth") and caput ("head"),[2][3] though it is sometimes misinterpreted as "true head." It is one of several examples of pseudo-Indian place names created by Schoolcraft."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Itasca (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Itasca)
It could also be a take on historic Spanish economic inefficency with regards to how the silver mines of the New World inflated the Spanish economy in the 1600s.Yeah, I think you've really got to stretch to tie it into Latin America. I mean, I get why people from that part of the world would do that, but I think that's something that the readers are bringing to the book, rather than something already there.
Basically, I am looking at this as a basis for the European Spaniards, and not in connection with Latin America. But then again, I do not have any roots in Latin America to notice that potential point of view.
Setting aside the question of cultural links to RL nations, I think there are equitable derogatory statements from and about both sides int he stories, and I expect we'll get some for Olympia in the next book as well. The Albion folks arent presented as any more noble or fair-minded than the Aurorans, as I read it. The soldiers had the soldiers mindset of hard actions during war, but so did Grimm and Co. The Aurorans wereI think the Spirearch's first instinct onAnd the end(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
*approximate quote
Yeah, I think you've really got to stretch to tie it into Latin America. I mean, I get why people from that part of the world would do that, but I think that's something that the readers are bringing to the book, rather than something already there.
Spain's economic troubles and it's imperialism aren't really controversial. Reading it, it felt like fairly clear parallels with Phillip II, who faced multiple state bankruptcies (Even with rampant imperialism), sent the Spanish Armada against England, and had notable corruption - He sold off state roles to people with money, but without talent.
I had not been offended, only he was. And he has not finished it yet.My biggest take-away from the scenes at the end was the idea that while the governments might be at war, even though loyalties and perspectives may be different, at least among the Aeronauts (our hero class, like Knights or Samurai or Musketeers) they are proven honorable, all proper Gentlemen Soldiers on both sides. I took it as the classic theme of Governments are all generally bad in their own ways, but that doesnt mean the Soldiers under tehir command cant be honorable folks that just want to protect their homes and families and way of life from outside attack.
That said, I don't think that changes. As I said, the problem is not the actual characters, but the stereotype about the government.
And again, this is not a history book, it is probably a book about the future. So because there was a bad government all future governments would be bad?
Yep, the offensive part was against the governments.Well, I can attest that I certainly was Oblivious, but Ill endeavor to get better about that. Sorry :-[
(minor quarrel I've already said many times. i consider myself American too. I live in South America. I was raised believing i am a citizen of Earth, America, Argentina, Buenos Aires, Flores (that is my neighbourhood). The way people of USA have to refer themselves as the only Americans it's what we call "cultural colonialism". And it is something that irritates me specially when a Latin American said it too. it's contagious! And no, I don't believe people is USA is being mean with us, I just think they are oblivious)
Well, I can attest that I certainly was Oblivious, but Ill endeavor to get better about that. Sorry :-[
It's meant to mimic the "relaxed" pronunciation of people like this:Those are great!
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&authuser=0&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1209&bih=875&q=murica&oq=murica&gs_l=img.3..0l7j0i10j0l2.859.1775.0.2031.6.6.0.0.0.0.79.373.6.6.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.6.372.KuVZ_elifmc
Speaking of names, I laughed at the fact that the young men that Gwen killed was called Lazarus.
LOL! Hubby caught that in Albion they play golf. I had not idea because I didn't know the expression (something about par to the course or something)Yeah, it's at the end of Ch.40. Though it could be another "horse" type situation where the language doesn't reflect the way things are in the story's present.
I had not heard the audiobooks so I can't tell. Mr Morton is the one doing the reading?Euan Morton, yes
Steam Punk by it's nature identifies with the Victorian Era of England which identified heavily with ancient Greece.Just pointed out that Albion was not a greek god or the home of a greek god, it is just the oldest name for that island we have.
Just pointed out that Albion was not a greek god or the home of a greek god, it is just the oldest name for that island we have.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alebion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlebionI did not use wiki for research, I knew what I was looking for. The term Albion is still occasionally used, occurs in old welsh and Irish texts and is the current Gaelic name for Scotland, i read the name on an official government building in Edinburgh years ago.
I suspect we should both be careful when using wiki as a reference as any true scholarly work would not allow that. LOL.
Anyway Without doing a study i'd be unsure of what the true root of the islands name is.Read the article, it is actually quite accurate.
As to why Jim used it for the spire i'd have to defer to him. Aurora was roman not greek, and Olympia could be from either root. The point of the reply for me though was that Auroran most likely has nothing to do with spain.
Allcharacterscountries appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to realpersonscountries, living or dead, contemporary or historical is purely coincidental.
And we know that disclaimer is sometimes fiction as well.
And even more useful as real countries are the cliches about real countries. Some writers hide it better than others by combining, mixing and changing themes but it happens a lot.
Tolkien, Howard, Eddings. Especially in fantasy.
((Dina :-*))well, fwiw, when I read it I thought that the intended punchline was Harry's silly insecurities, rather than being gay. But looking back it might not have been there; it would have taking a jab from murphy or somebody to solidify the target of the joke as his own fragile ego. It would have in fact fit rather well with their budding flirtation in parts of the story.
Lack of malicious intent or genuine ignorance doesn't mean it can't be legitimately offensive, though.
I think some of the gay jokes in Dresden are cringeworthy bad(the earring conversation, especially). If "being ____" is the punchline, it's probably an insensitive, bad joke. Was it in character for Dresden? Absolutely. Do I think it was in poor taste and should've been left out? Yes, yes I do. Does it greatly upset me? No. Do I think Jim's editor should've gently said something like, 'you're making being gay a punchline, and that's kind of offensive. You try to be inclusive in so many ways-are you sure you want this in here?' to try and convince him to cut that joke? Yes. Hell, for all I know, that conversation happened, and Jim decided to leave it in.
On a side note, that byplay actually confused me a bit, because Harry and Thomas used the whole Tomás thing as an explicit criticism of bigotry...and then Harry makes off-color jokes in poor taste. ::)