Author Topic: Intra-Habble Transportation  (Read 2580 times)

Offline knnn

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2015, 03:19:21 PM »
Heck if these ducts exist in the outer wall of the spire and are big enough for marines to access, then I would totally expect any amount of merchants to use these access tunnels to the various habbles in order to avoid tolls.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2015, 03:28:20 PM »
Heck if these ducts exist in the outer wall of the spire and are big enough for marines to access, then I would totally expect any amount of merchants to use these access tunnels to the various habbles in order to avoid tolls.
Im sure they do, or at least that they try.  But I dont think that the Cat Clan's would look too kindly on that sort of invasion, so you'd have to be careful.  And the verminicitors prove that dangerous surface creatures find there way up the ventilation warrens too, so it's not without innate danger to any would-be smugglers. 
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Offline knnn

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2015, 03:39:21 PM »
Im sure they do, or at least that they try.  But I dont think that the Cat Clan's would look too kindly on that sort of invasion, so you'd have to be careful.

Is it considered smuggling just because you don't use the official toll road?  In any case, I would expect such an arrangement to include paying the local cats for right of passage (would still probably be cheaper and faster than paying for 50 tolls) and for keeping vermin away.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2015, 03:53:07 PM »
Is it considered smuggling just because you don't use the official toll road? 
Yes, if you enter a political region that controls it's borders by bypassing those borders to avoid the established costs/tolls/tarrifs, it would by definition be smuggling, would it not?
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In any case, I would expect such an arrangement to include paying the local cats for right of passage (would still probably be cheaper and faster than paying for 50 tolls) and for keeping vermin away.
Fair point, they are open to negotiation.  I was imagining them exploring their way through all amateur like, rather tan establishing a route and agreements like a reasonable Crime-lord.   :P
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Offline knnn

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2015, 05:14:33 PM »
Yes, if you enter a political region that controls it's borders by bypassing those borders to avoid the established costs/tolls/tarrifs, it would by definition be smuggling, would it not?

I agree with you that it depends on the laws, but I don't think it is necessarily the case here.   Would you consider the habbles to be more independent than the 50 states of America?  Just because there are toll roads along major highways doesn't mean it is necessarily illegal to move things between states on local roads.

Heck, if the ducts are established enough, goods that travel through such methods might be welcomed and taxed (taxes that would pay for the local exterminators).  Paying taxes to 2 habbles might still be less than the tolls you accrue going through the 20 habbles in the middle.

Consider also that the high cost of transportation might prevent certain goods from reaching some of the more out-of-the-way habbles.  I would think that they would welcome any methods of getting more goods, and just make it legal out of necessity.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 05:17:31 PM by knnn »
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2015, 05:50:21 PM »
I agree with you that it depends on the laws, but I don't think it is necessarily the case here.   Would you consider the habbles to be more independent than the 50 states of America?  Just because there are toll roads along major highways doesn't mean it is necessarily illegal to move things between states on local roads.
It actually does, depending on what "Things" we are talking about.  Interstate commerce is closely watched and regulated, even if it's not to the level of national Customs, where politics get involved more.  The most common example I hear about in RL today are people driving down to Southern states and buying cigarettes wholesale, then driving up to New York and selling them without paying all the state taxes on them. 
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Heck, if the ducts are established enough, goods that travel through such methods might be welcomed and taxed (taxes that would pay for the local exterminators).  Paying taxes to 2 habbles might still be less than the tolls you accrue going through the 20 habbles in the middle.
That could makes sense, but doesnt seem to be the case here, or at least it's not a significant means of economic goods transport. Otherwise it would have been mentioned along with the toll-roads and the three outside Shipyards (though presumably there is some sort of controlled gate at the surface as well).  I could easily see them piggy-backing water lines or vacuum tubes or Lift crystal Floats up air shafts or some such as an inter-habble Postal service, for example.
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Consider also that the high cost of transportation might prevent certain goods from reaching some of the more out-of-the-way habbles.  I would think that they would welcome any methods of getting more goods, and just make it legal out of necessity.
Why make it legal when you can Just Do It?  That's precisely why these kinds of organizations form.   Your argument is essentially "Why don't they just make everything people Want and Need Legal?"  That's a spectacularly good question, but based on empirical evidence I think the answer is "Human Nature". 
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Offline knnn

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2015, 07:34:41 PM »
The most common example I hear about in RL today are people driving down to Southern states and buying cigarettes wholesale, then driving up to New York and selling them without paying all the state taxes on them.
 

Ah.  I didn't realize that one.

That could makes sense, but doesnt seem to be the case here, or at least it's not a significant means of economic goods transport. Otherwise it would have been mentioned along with the toll-roads and the three outside Shipyards (though presumably there is some sort of controlled gate at the surface as well).

Perhaps.  Remember that we barely have any discussion of transport.  I think that the only quote we have is that 75% of the official goods go through habble (though I don't remember if this is just for Morning or for the entire spire).    As a data point, depending how you count it, economists estimate the size of the global black market at about 20% of total GDP.

Your argument is essentially "Why don't they just make everything people Want and Need Legal?"  That's a spectacularly good question, but based on empirical evidence I think the answer is "Human Nature".

The incentive is that you can then tax it.  Taxes for essential items would obviously be lower than for luxury goods, but I do see your point.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 04:25:47 PM by knnn »
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Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2015, 06:25:54 AM »
There is a difference between public transportation and cargo transport.
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Offline Nimblegrund

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2015, 06:48:54 AM »
1)  In addition, I don't think we have seen people using carts/wagons to move stuff around.  This kinda makes sense, because if you want bulk goods from a different level, I don't see how you get a cart up the equivalent of five flights of stairs.

Actually, they did transport Ferrus' collection in a couple of wagons/carts. So they do see some use.

3) It would make sense if one of the staircases was blasted away and an elevator put in place.  They do have lift crystals after all.

Are there staircases going between the habbles? I assume that this is the purpose of windlasses, to move people and goods from habble to habble.

6) We also know that there are extensive ducts/vents going between the various levels (for critter and Auroran marine use).  Given the tariffs and the traffic, I think it would make sense that there is a lot of smuggling going on through these back routes, and some of the bigger ducts might even be official secondary paths between the habbles.

I am not 100% sure that the air vents go between habbles, or whether each habble has its own separate ventilation. After all, the silkweavers seemed to be confined to Habble Landing.

10) This makes one wonder why more habbles didn't go the route of Landing and make their own holes in the wall.  Obviously there are diminishing returns for every extra hole, but think of a habble midway between Landing and Morning.  Bringing goods to this habble from the outside requires transport 2500 feet vertically.  That means that (e.g.) every beam of wood on this habble required a human to carry it down (probably - up would be crazy) a distance of the tallest building in the world.   It would be real expensive.

Spirestone seems to be the most durable thing there is, so I don't think that they could put more holes in the wall even if they wanted to. All of the destroyed masonry we see in the book is specifically NOT spirestone, so they may be restricted in what they are able to/are willing to destroy.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 06:52:50 AM by Nimblegrund »

Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2015, 12:22:39 PM »
We do see spiders in habble morning and marines got from morning to landing via the vents, so there must be connections.

 Were there any mentions of carts, wagons or anything similar during the book? They dont have horses, so who woul move the goods.

We know only big ships can travel and dock at morning, landing and base. That is the equivalent of a port or a flight bay. What if there are something aking to air hatches? Small access way on each habble. We know that air ships can travel between spires, but there are mentions of other inter habble travels. Those need an avenue of access apart from a port.
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Offline Brightbane

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2015, 09:18:47 PM »
We do see spiders in habble morning and marines got from morning to landing via the vents, so there must be connections.

 Were there any mentions of carts, wagons or anything similar during the book? They dont have horses, so who woul move the goods.

We know only big ships can travel and dock at morning, landing and base. That is the equivalent of a port or a flight bay. What if there are something aking to air hatches? Small access way on each habble. We know that air ships can travel between spires, but there are mentions of other inter habble travels. Those need an avenue of access apart from a port.
Air transport is cheaper and faster than taking stuff up the stairs. Every habble charges a toll to use their staircases.

Folly carries the collection in two connested wagons
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Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2015, 02:31:19 AM »
They wagons but do they have draft animals.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2015, 07:48:42 PM »
They wagons but do they have draft animals.
Not in the spire, no. Folly "[dragged] a pair of small children's wagons in a little train."  Horses had all but passed out of memory, and almost entirely into myth, but are at least believed to no longer exist.   
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Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2015, 04:04:47 AM »
Their magic tech show examples of electric and magnetic application, what if they created some thing akin to a maglev on the ground?
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Offline Brightbane

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2015, 05:04:00 AM »
Their magic tech show examples of electric and magnetic application, what if they created some thing akin to a maglev on the ground?
Those would just be lift crystals with a small power crystal, and those are all made large and exclusively for ships. Using crystals like that would be like someone buying a private jet and using it to drive their kids to school
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