ParanetOnline
Other Jimness => Cinder Spires Spoilers => Topic started by: knnn on October 15, 2015, 02:05:26 PM
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On the one hand, a spire appears to be a single large city state, but in fact it quite effectively split up into habbles. Consider the fact that if you want to move stuff (grain/raw materials/finished products) even one habble up or down, you need to use one of four ramps/stairs to climb or go down 50 feet. These are real bottlenecks and I think have a number of repercussions.
1) There's no evidence of beasts of burden, so all transportation must be done by hand. In addition, I don't think we have seen people using carts/wagons to move stuff around. This kinda makes sense, because if you want bulk goods from a different level, I don't see how you get a cart up the equivalent of five flights of stairs.
2) Traffic on the stairs/ramps is going to be a mess. Anyone who has business on a different level has to go through here. Add to this the fact that there are tool booths to go through (for collecting fees) and things get worse.
3) It would make sense if one of the staircases was blasted away and an elevator put in place. They do have lift crystals after all.
4) There is a distinct advantage to being on a higher habble. After all, it's easier to move commodities down a ramp than up it. Think about rollerblading down a 2 mile ramp...
5) Note also that these bottlenecks make for great warfare targets. After all, if you want to contain a rebellion, all you need potentially need to do is hold the staircases. Heck, if you're on the upper habble, you can destroy the staircases. Needing to climb 50 feet straight up to invade is going to be hard.
6) We also know that there are extensive ducts/vents going between the various levels (for critter and Auroran marine use). Given the tariffs and the traffic, I think it would make sense that there is a lot of smuggling going on through these back routes, and some of the bigger ducts might even be official secondary paths between the habbles.
7) In any case, all this means that in essence, each habble is going to need to be pretty self sufficient. This is partially shown by the fact that the most important habble (Morning) "wastes" space for meat vats. In any real city, this type of industry would have been moved to areas with cheaper real estate. Of course, it might be that they don't have the technological knowhow to move the vats anymore.
8) This self sufficiency comes at the price of efficiency. If every habble needs to be able to support itself, then you can't have the highly urbanized "city centers" that get supported by the surrounding countyside. In ancient Rome, the center of the city had a population density of ~70,000 people per square mile, but had to import grain and commodities from farms and villages throughout the empire. In contrast, it took about 1 square mile of cultivated farmland (including grain, mill, vinyard, etc.) to support 500 people.
9) Now granted, the spire has "water gardens" and vats for food, (so enhanced production) but I still think this pretty much means an upper limit of ~5000 people per habble. This includes nobility, farmers, technicians, store owners, etc. Specially important habbles might be able to push this a bit higher at the expense of the neighboring habbles, but I would guess that 10,000 is a hard limit.
10) This makes one wonder why more habbles didn't go the route of Landing and make their own holes in the wall. Obviously there are diminishing returns for every extra hole, but think of a habble midway between Landing and Morning. Bringing goods to this habble from the outside requires transport 2500 feet vertically. That means that (e.g.) every beam of wood on this habble required a human to carry it down (probably - up would be crazy) a distance of the tallest building in the world. It would be real expensive.
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It's worth noting that creating their shipyard effectively put a target on the back of Habble Landing as a legitimate target of war; there are bound to be many habbles who want nothing to do with that kind of risk in an age of turmoil.
I'm also fairly sure that each habble has four spiral access points to other habbles(refer to the habble maps), and if these exits are indeed spiral in structure, it wouldn't surprise me if many raw goods were transported by windlass up the middle of the spiral, while the actual ramps are mostly for pedestrians.
All in all, I'm pretty sure you're right that spire life is likely a civil engineer's nightmare.
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A few quibbles, I seem to recall somewhere them saying that it took generations to wear a hole through the spirestone. And how exactly do you think they would destroy a spirestone staircase? As far as I can tell it's indestructible without decades of constant work to break it down.
And, SetStndbySmn, what are these maps I see people mention. Some people seem to have access to them and other people don't
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7) In any case, all this means that in essence, each habble is going to need to be pretty self sufficient. This is partially shown by the fact that the most important habble (Morning) "wastes" space for meat vats. In any real city, this type of industry would have been moved to areas with cheaper real estate. Of course, it might be that they don't have the technological knowhow to move the vats anymore.
Oh, they can still create new vats. I think they would be capable of moving them if they needed to, but it might throw off production, or ruin everything in them at the moment
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Oh, they can still create new vats. I think they would be capable of moving them if they needed to, but it might throw off production, or ruin everything in them at the moment
You have a quote that says they can create new vats?
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I think there's a line or two, that suggests that Bridget's family is new to meat production, but that doesn't necessarily mean a new vat.
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I think there's a line or two, that suggests that Bridget's family is new to meat production, but that doesn't necessarily mean a new vat.
Ah.
I know we have quotes about the possibility of them losing their vat because someone will buy them out, but I don't recall anything that indicates they capability of building new vatteries (e.g. to create more competition and put them out of business).
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You have a quote that says they can create new vats?
Yeah
Espira wove his way through the hectic streets of landing. Most habbles in every spire had modified the original spaces as designed by the Builders, adding in fortifications, additional housing, more vatteries, whatever was needed-
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Yeah
Nice! Good job finding that one.
Ok, so apparently the current residents have the technology to build new vatteries. That makes sense from a historical viewpoint (otherwise wear and tear would have done them all in by now), but does raise the issue of their technological level. After all , building a meat vattery is beyond our current tech level. Makes you wonder how they managed.
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This was an interesting thread, which got me to thinking about the spire structure and amount of living space. I came up with some inconsistencies in the numbers. I guess inconsistency is not the right word. Just different from what I was picturing.
Lord Albion rose and took a couple of the large maps down from the wall behind him, revealing a to-scale rendering of the entire Spire. “Spire Albion,” he said. “Ten thousand feet high, two miles across. There are two hundred and fifty habbles, of which two hundred and thirty-six are occupied.
Doing the math here 10,000 ft. / 250 Habbles = 40 ft. height per Habble. Note this also includes the thickness of the floor+ceiling.
But then we have:
Habble Morning occupied the entirety of the Spire, most of it beneath a vast atrium nearly two hundred feet high, and it was the next-best thing to two miles from one side of the great cylinder that was Spire Albion to the other.
This must mean that the Habbles are not all the same height. I guess it makes sense that Habble Morning is the biggest, since that is where the seat of government is.
Anyway, back to topic...
A Habble has about 2000 acres (3.14 mi^2). Knnn's numbers are good about farming. on Traditional sustainable farms, you can feed each person on 4 acres, but with vats and hydroponics, I believe that it makes sense that you could get a higher density yield. Especially since they are not necessarily growing the same inefficient crops and animals. Also, since you are not restricted to solar surface area, you can potentially stack those hydroponics and vats vertically and get a much denser yield per acre from that as well. After all, in the habble light for the crops would be coming from crystals.
Anyway, fun to think about.
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This was an interesting thread, which got me to thinking about the spire structure and amount of living space. I came up with some inconsistencies in the numbers. I guess inconsistency is not the right word. Just different from what I was picturing.Doing the math here 10,000 ft. / 250 Habbles = 40 ft. height per Habble. Note this also includes the thickness of the floor+ceiling.
But then we have:This must mean that the Habbles are not all the same height. I guess it makes sense that Habble Morning is the biggest, since that is where the seat of government is.
Anyway, back to topic...
A Habble has about 2000 acres (3.14 mi^2). Knnn's numbers are good about farming. on Traditional sustainable farms, you can feed each person on 4 acres, but with vats and hydroponics, I believe that it makes sense that you could get a higher density yield. Especially since they are not necessarily growing the same inefficient crops and animals. Also, since you are not restricted to solar surface area, you can potentially stack those hydroponics and vats vertically and get a much denser yield per acre from that as well. After all, in the habble light for the crops would be coming from crystals.
Anyway, fun to think about.
Also, their animal protein takes up about 0% of their grain crops since it's grown in vats
And I think Morning is the top level, which would make it the only one that has a roof instead of a ceiling. That could explain the height difference. There were also several comments about how Morning and Landing were way more populated than most habbles are
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I would like to hear from Jim if there is any inter-habble transportation besides Airships. Any stairs or elevator style lifts between floors.
One could imagine a vertical train where the cars would stack with the floors of the cars being vertically the same distance as between habble floors. At the top, the car flips around and becomes the car going down in a second elevator shaft (both shafts could be outside the habble proper). If you need to go up, you get in one side; down in the other. It could stop for 1 minute at each habble. Would take maybe 6 hours to get from bottom to top. Maybe even faster it you stopped like an airport train. Like 10 seconds at each stop for foot traffic. You could have a second set of elevators that stop for longer to load cargo for a slow, but steady flow of cargo.
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I would like to hear from Jim if there is any inter-habble transportation besides Airships. Any stairs or elevator style lifts between floors.
One could imagine a vertical train where the cars would stack with the floors of the cars being vertically the same distance as between habble floors. At the top, the car flips around and becomes the car going down in a second elevator shaft (both shafts could be outside the habble proper). If you need to go up, you get in one side; down in the other. It could stop for 1 minute at each habble. Would take maybe 6 hours to get from bottom to top. Maybe even faster it you stopped like an airport train. Like 10 seconds at each stop for foot traffic. You could have a second set of elevators that stop for longer to load cargo for a slow, but steady flow of cargo.
As far as I'm aware there are 4 staircases spaced around each level so you would have to walk the entire way.
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As far as I'm aware there are 4 staircases spaced around each level so you would have to walk the entire way.
Yeah, it's possible to walk from habble to habble, but there are tolls/taxes for each level you pass. Walking is slow and expensive, hence the group using an airship to get down to Habble Landing. It's also why Habble Landing has so much money to throw around on wooden buildings. About 70% of inter-habble trade comes through their airship port (I think I remember that figure correctly, I know it was a huge chunk). Any habble that wants to send goods to a far away habble can save money by skipping directly to Habble Landing for a smaller fee.
Habble Morning is the top habble since it has an airship platform and Habble Landing is remarkable for being the only habble that has managed to set up a third access point to a spire besides the bottom level and the top level.
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As far as I'm aware there are 4 staircases spaced around each level so you would have to walk the entire way.
The Auroran marines managed to get to Landing through the ducts. Since I doubt they all managed to get to the duct on a specific level I think this means that they managed to move between the habbles through the vents. To me this implies that there might be secondary routes between the habbles. If big enough, these could be official secondary routes between habbles. Even if not official, I would expect black market goods to go through here in an attempt to get around fees/taxes.
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Heck if these ducts exist in the outer wall of the spire and are big enough for marines to access, then I would totally expect any amount of merchants to use these access tunnels to the various habbles in order to avoid tolls.
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Heck if these ducts exist in the outer wall of the spire and are big enough for marines to access, then I would totally expect any amount of merchants to use these access tunnels to the various habbles in order to avoid tolls.
Im sure they do, or at least that they try. But I dont think that the Cat Clan's would look too kindly on that sort of invasion, so you'd have to be careful. And the verminicitors prove that dangerous surface creatures find there way up the ventilation warrens too, so it's not without innate danger to any would-be smugglers.
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Im sure they do, or at least that they try. But I dont think that the Cat Clan's would look too kindly on that sort of invasion, so you'd have to be careful.
Is it considered smuggling just because you don't use the official toll road? In any case, I would expect such an arrangement to include paying the local cats for right of passage (would still probably be cheaper and faster than paying for 50 tolls) and for keeping vermin away.
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Is it considered smuggling just because you don't use the official toll road?
Yes, if you enter a political region that controls it's borders by bypassing those borders to avoid the established costs/tolls/tarrifs, it would by definition be smuggling, would it not?
In any case, I would expect such an arrangement to include paying the local cats for right of passage (would still probably be cheaper and faster than paying for 50 tolls) and for keeping vermin away.
Fair point, they are open to negotiation. I was imagining them exploring their way through all amateur like, rather tan establishing a route and agreements like a reasonable Crime-lord. :P
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Yes, if you enter a political region that controls it's borders by bypassing those borders to avoid the established costs/tolls/tarrifs, it would by definition be smuggling, would it not?
I agree with you that it depends on the laws, but I don't think it is necessarily the case here. Would you consider the habbles to be more independent than the 50 states of America? Just because there are toll roads along major highways doesn't mean it is necessarily illegal to move things between states on local roads.
Heck, if the ducts are established enough, goods that travel through such methods might be welcomed and taxed (taxes that would pay for the local exterminators). Paying taxes to 2 habbles might still be less than the tolls you accrue going through the 20 habbles in the middle.
Consider also that the high cost of transportation might prevent certain goods from reaching some of the more out-of-the-way habbles. I would think that they would welcome any methods of getting more goods, and just make it legal out of necessity.
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I agree with you that it depends on the laws, but I don't think it is necessarily the case here. Would you consider the habbles to be more independent than the 50 states of America? Just because there are toll roads along major highways doesn't mean it is necessarily illegal to move things between states on local roads.
It actually does, depending on what "Things" we are talking about. Interstate commerce is closely watched and regulated, even if it's not to the level of national Customs, where politics get involved more. The most common example I hear about in RL today are people driving down to Southern states and buying cigarettes wholesale, then driving up to New York and selling them without paying all the state taxes on them.
Heck, if the ducts are established enough, goods that travel through such methods might be welcomed and taxed (taxes that would pay for the local exterminators). Paying taxes to 2 habbles might still be less than the tolls you accrue going through the 20 habbles in the middle.
That could makes sense, but doesnt seem to be the case here, or at least it's not a significant means of economic goods transport. Otherwise it would have been mentioned along with the toll-roads and the three outside Shipyards (though presumably there is some sort of controlled gate at the surface as well). I could easily see them piggy-backing water lines or vacuum tubes or Lift crystal Floats up air shafts or some such as an inter-habble Postal service, for example.
Consider also that the high cost of transportation might prevent certain goods from reaching some of the more out-of-the-way habbles. I would think that they would welcome any methods of getting more goods, and just make it legal out of necessity.
Why make it legal when you can Just Do It? That's precisely why these kinds of organizations form. Your argument is essentially "Why don't they just make everything people Want and Need Legal?" That's a spectacularly good question, but based on empirical evidence I think the answer is "Human Nature".
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The most common example I hear about in RL today are people driving down to Southern states and buying cigarettes wholesale, then driving up to New York and selling them without paying all the state taxes on them.
Ah. I didn't realize that one.
That could makes sense, but doesnt seem to be the case here, or at least it's not a significant means of economic goods transport. Otherwise it would have been mentioned along with the toll-roads and the three outside Shipyards (though presumably there is some sort of controlled gate at the surface as well).
Perhaps. Remember that we barely have any discussion of transport. I think that the only quote we have is that 75% of the official goods go through habble (though I don't remember if this is just for Morning or for the entire spire). As a data point, depending how you count it, economists estimate the size of the global black market at about 20% of total GDP.
Your argument is essentially "Why don't they just make everything people Want and Need Legal?" That's a spectacularly good question, but based on empirical evidence I think the answer is "Human Nature".
The incentive is that you can then tax it. Taxes for essential items would obviously be lower than for luxury goods, but I do see your point.
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There is a difference between public transportation and cargo transport.
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1) In addition, I don't think we have seen people using carts/wagons to move stuff around. This kinda makes sense, because if you want bulk goods from a different level, I don't see how you get a cart up the equivalent of five flights of stairs.
Actually, they did transport Ferrus' collection in a couple of wagons/carts. So they do see some use.
3) It would make sense if one of the staircases was blasted away and an elevator put in place. They do have lift crystals after all.
Are there staircases going between the habbles? I assume that this is the purpose of windlasses, to move people and goods from habble to habble.
6) We also know that there are extensive ducts/vents going between the various levels (for critter and Auroran marine use). Given the tariffs and the traffic, I think it would make sense that there is a lot of smuggling going on through these back routes, and some of the bigger ducts might even be official secondary paths between the habbles.
I am not 100% sure that the air vents go between habbles, or whether each habble has its own separate ventilation. After all, the silkweavers seemed to be confined to Habble Landing.
10) This makes one wonder why more habbles didn't go the route of Landing and make their own holes in the wall. Obviously there are diminishing returns for every extra hole, but think of a habble midway between Landing and Morning. Bringing goods to this habble from the outside requires transport 2500 feet vertically. That means that (e.g.) every beam of wood on this habble required a human to carry it down (probably - up would be crazy) a distance of the tallest building in the world. It would be real expensive.
Spirestone seems to be the most durable thing there is, so I don't think that they could put more holes in the wall even if they wanted to. All of the destroyed masonry we see in the book is specifically NOT spirestone, so they may be restricted in what they are able to/are willing to destroy.
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We do see spiders in habble morning and marines got from morning to landing via the vents, so there must be connections.
Were there any mentions of carts, wagons or anything similar during the book? They dont have horses, so who woul move the goods.
We know only big ships can travel and dock at morning, landing and base. That is the equivalent of a port or a flight bay. What if there are something aking to air hatches? Small access way on each habble. We know that air ships can travel between spires, but there are mentions of other inter habble travels. Those need an avenue of access apart from a port.
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We do see spiders in habble morning and marines got from morning to landing via the vents, so there must be connections.
Were there any mentions of carts, wagons or anything similar during the book? They dont have horses, so who woul move the goods.
We know only big ships can travel and dock at morning, landing and base. That is the equivalent of a port or a flight bay. What if there are something aking to air hatches? Small access way on each habble. We know that air ships can travel between spires, but there are mentions of other inter habble travels. Those need an avenue of access apart from a port.
Air transport is cheaper and faster than taking stuff up the stairs. Every habble charges a toll to use their staircases.
Folly carries the collection in two connested wagons
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They wagons but do they have draft animals.
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They wagons but do they have draft animals.
Not in the spire, no. Folly "[dragged] a pair of small children's wagons in a little train." Horses had all but passed out of memory, and almost entirely into myth, but are at least believed to no longer exist.
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Their magic tech show examples of electric and magnetic application, what if they created some thing akin to a maglev on the ground?
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Their magic tech show examples of electric and magnetic application, what if they created some thing akin to a maglev on the ground?
Those would just be lift crystals with a small power crystal, and those are all made large and exclusively for ships. Using crystals like that would be like someone buying a private jet and using it to drive their kids to school
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The surface is dangerous, what if they built tunnels linking the spires? How would such a network be different in scale then construction of the spires themselves.
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The surface is dangerous, what if they built tunnels linking the spires? How would such a network be different in scale then construction of the spires themselves.
Literally speaking? Two miles versus Hundreds or Thousands.... :P
Personally I think there is something more specifically hazardous about the Surface than just the critters, something akin to how being outdoors without Goggles opens you up to ether-born mental damage and blindness. Otherwise underground bunker systems make more sense (from a structural standpoint) in all categories.
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All we have heard is that there are spires and jungles, are there any seas or mountains? Differing ecosystems might allow different approaches.
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All we have heard is that there are spires and jungles, are there any seas or mountains? Differing ecosystems might allow different approaches.
I think it's likely, but all we know of the surface is near Albion. Mountains are guaranteed by the nature of a geologic planet*, and Oceans are all but guaranteed barring a non-earth location or a planetary level event that caused ether and Mist and whatnot.
*Before the actual release I had a theory based on nothing that the world would be a Gas Giant planet and the "Spires" would prove to be spikes from a planetary sized crystal that was floating in it's center (picture some of the spiky kryptonian crystals from the Superan movies). The existence of a Surface disproves this completely, tragically.
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I wonder if there might be secret settlements in the safer regions of the surface. They could be very I portant in the future.