Author Topic: Intra-Habble Transportation  (Read 2579 times)

Offline knnn

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Intra-Habble Transportation
« on: October 15, 2015, 02:05:26 PM »
On the one hand, a spire appears to be a single large city state, but in fact it quite effectively split up into habbles.  Consider the fact that if you want to move stuff (grain/raw materials/finished products) even one habble up or down, you need to use one of four ramps/stairs to climb or go down 50 feet.  These are real bottlenecks and I think have a number of repercussions.

1) There's no evidence of beasts of burden, so all transportation must be done by hand.  In addition, I don't think we have seen people using carts/wagons to move stuff around.  This kinda makes sense, because if you want bulk goods from a different level, I don't see how you get a cart up the equivalent of five flights of stairs.

2) Traffic on the stairs/ramps is going to be a mess.  Anyone who has business on a different level has to go through here.  Add to this the fact that there are tool booths to go through (for collecting fees) and things get worse. 

3) It would make sense if one of the staircases was blasted away and an elevator put in place.  They do have lift crystals after all.

4) There is a distinct advantage to being on a higher habble.  After all, it's easier to move commodities down a ramp than up it.  Think about rollerblading down a 2 mile ramp...

5) Note also that these bottlenecks make for great warfare targets.  After all, if you want to contain a rebellion, all you need potentially need to do is hold the staircases.  Heck, if you're on the upper habble, you can destroy the staircases.  Needing to climb 50 feet straight up to invade is going to be hard.

6) We also know that there are extensive ducts/vents going between the various levels (for critter and Auroran marine use).  Given the tariffs and the traffic, I think it would make sense that there is a lot of smuggling going on through these back routes, and some of the bigger ducts might even be official secondary paths between the habbles.

7) In any case, all this means that in essence, each habble is going to need to be pretty self sufficient.  This is partially shown by the fact that the most important habble (Morning) "wastes" space for meat vats.  In any real city, this type of industry would have been moved to areas with cheaper real estate.  Of course, it might be that they don't have the technological knowhow to move the vats anymore.

8) This self sufficiency comes at the price of efficiency.  If every habble needs to be able to support itself, then you can't have the highly urbanized "city centers" that get supported by the surrounding countyside.  In ancient Rome, the center of the city had a population density of ~70,000 people per square mile, but had to import grain and commodities from farms and villages throughout the empire.  In contrast, it took about 1 square mile of cultivated farmland (including grain, mill, vinyard, etc.) to support 500 people. 

9) Now granted, the spire has "water gardens" and vats for food, (so enhanced production) but I still think this pretty much means an upper limit of ~5000 people per habble.  This includes nobility, farmers, technicians, store owners, etc.  Specially important habbles might be able to push this a bit higher at the expense of the neighboring habbles, but I would guess that 10,000 is a hard limit.

10) This makes one wonder why more habbles didn't go the route of Landing and make their own holes in the wall.  Obviously there are diminishing returns for every extra hole, but think of a habble midway between Landing and Morning.  Bringing goods to this habble from the outside requires transport 2500 feet vertically.  That means that (e.g.) every beam of wood on this habble required a human to carry it down (probably - up would be crazy) a distance of the tallest building in the world.   It would be real expensive.
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Offline SetStndbySmn

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2015, 06:59:32 PM »
It's worth noting that creating their shipyard effectively put a target on the back of Habble Landing as a legitimate target of war; there are bound to be many habbles who want nothing to do with that kind of risk in an age of turmoil. 

I'm also fairly sure that each habble has four spiral access points to other habbles(refer to the habble maps), and if these exits are indeed spiral in structure, it wouldn't surprise me if many raw goods were transported by windlass up the middle of the spiral, while the actual ramps are mostly for pedestrians.

All in all, I'm pretty sure you're right that spire life is likely a civil engineer's nightmare.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 07:02:52 PM by SetStndbySmn »

Offline Brightbane

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2015, 02:25:30 AM »
A few quibbles, I seem to recall somewhere them saying that it took generations to wear a hole through the spirestone. And how exactly do you think they would destroy a spirestone staircase? As far as I can tell it's indestructible without decades of constant work to break it down.

And, SetStndbySmn, what are these maps I see people mention. Some people seem to have access to them and other people don't
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Offline Brightbane

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2015, 02:35:52 AM »
7) In any case, all this means that in essence, each habble is going to need to be pretty self sufficient.  This is partially shown by the fact that the most important habble (Morning) "wastes" space for meat vats.  In any real city, this type of industry would have been moved to areas with cheaper real estate.  Of course, it might be that they don't have the technological knowhow to move the vats anymore.
Oh, they can still create new vats. I think they would be capable of moving them if they needed to, but it might throw off production, or ruin everything in them at the moment
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Offline knnn

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2015, 03:11:06 AM »
Oh, they can still create new vats. I think they would be capable of moving them if they needed to, but it might throw off production, or ruin everything in them at the moment

You have a quote that says they can create new vats?
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Offline KevinSig

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2015, 09:37:05 AM »
I think there's a line or two, that suggests that Bridget's family is new to meat production, but that doesn't necessarily mean a new vat.

Offline knnn

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 01:11:24 PM »
I think there's a line or two, that suggests that Bridget's family is new to meat production, but that doesn't necessarily mean a new vat.

Ah.

I  know we have quotes about the possibility of them losing their vat because someone will buy them out, but I don't recall anything that indicates they capability of building new vatteries (e.g. to create more competition and put them out of business).
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Offline Brightbane

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 04:19:53 PM »
You have a quote that says they can create new vats?

Yeah

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Espira wove his way through the hectic streets of landing. Most habbles in every spire had modified the original spaces as designed by the Builders, adding in fortifications, additional housing, more vatteries, whatever was needed-
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Offline knnn

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 05:16:09 PM »
Yeah

Nice!  Good job finding that one.

Ok, so apparently the current residents have the technology to build new vatteries.  That makes sense from a historical viewpoint (otherwise wear and tear would have done them all in by now), but does raise the issue of their technological level.  After all , building a meat vattery is beyond our current tech level.  Makes you wonder how they managed.
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Offline KeyMasterOfGozer

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2015, 05:10:26 AM »
This was an interesting thread, which got me to thinking about the spire structure and amount of living space.  I came up with some inconsistencies in the numbers.  I guess inconsistency is not the right word.  Just different from what I was picturing.
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Lord Albion rose and took a couple of the large maps down from the wall behind him, revealing a to-scale rendering of the entire Spire. “Spire Albion,” he said. “Ten thousand feet high, two miles across. There are two hundred and fifty habbles, of which two hundred and thirty-six are occupied.
Doing the math here 10,000 ft. / 250 Habbles = 40 ft. height per Habble.  Note this also includes the thickness of the floor+ceiling.

But then we have:
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Habble Morning occupied the entirety of the Spire, most of it beneath a vast atrium nearly two hundred feet high, and it was the next-best thing to two miles from one side of the great cylinder that was Spire Albion to the other.
This must mean that the Habbles are not all the same height.  I guess it makes sense that Habble Morning is the biggest, since that is where the seat of government is.

Anyway, back to topic...
A Habble has about 2000 acres (3.14 mi^2).  Knnn's numbers are good about farming.  on Traditional sustainable farms, you can feed each person on 4 acres, but with vats and hydroponics, I believe that it makes sense that you could get a higher density yield.  Especially since they are not necessarily growing the same inefficient crops and animals.  Also, since you are not restricted to solar surface area, you can potentially stack those hydroponics and vats vertically and get a much denser yield per acre from that as well.  After all, in the habble light for the crops would be coming from crystals.

Anyway, fun to think about.

Offline Brightbane

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2015, 01:48:36 AM »
This was an interesting thread, which got me to thinking about the spire structure and amount of living space.  I came up with some inconsistencies in the numbers.  I guess inconsistency is not the right word.  Just different from what I was picturing.Doing the math here 10,000 ft. / 250 Habbles = 40 ft. height per Habble.  Note this also includes the thickness of the floor+ceiling.

But then we have:This must mean that the Habbles are not all the same height.  I guess it makes sense that Habble Morning is the biggest, since that is where the seat of government is.

Anyway, back to topic...
A Habble has about 2000 acres (3.14 mi^2).  Knnn's numbers are good about farming.  on Traditional sustainable farms, you can feed each person on 4 acres, but with vats and hydroponics, I believe that it makes sense that you could get a higher density yield.  Especially since they are not necessarily growing the same inefficient crops and animals.  Also, since you are not restricted to solar surface area, you can potentially stack those hydroponics and vats vertically and get a much denser yield per acre from that as well.  After all, in the habble light for the crops would be coming from crystals.

Anyway, fun to think about.
Also, their animal protein takes up about 0% of their grain crops since it's grown in vats

And I think Morning is the top level, which would make it the only one that has a roof instead of a ceiling. That could explain the height difference. There were also several comments about how Morning and Landing were way more populated than most habbles are
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Offline KeyMasterOfGozer

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2015, 02:04:54 AM »
I would like to hear from Jim if there is any inter-habble transportation besides Airships.  Any stairs or elevator style lifts between floors. 

One could imagine a vertical train where the cars would stack with the floors of the cars being vertically the same distance as between habble floors.  At the top, the car flips around and becomes the car going down in a second elevator shaft (both shafts could be outside the habble proper).  If you need to go up, you get in one side; down in the other.  It could stop for 1 minute at each habble.  Would take maybe 6 hours to get from bottom to top.  Maybe even faster it you stopped like an airport train.  Like 10 seconds at each stop for foot traffic.  You could have a second set of elevators that stop for longer to load cargo for a slow, but steady flow of cargo.

Offline Brightbane

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2015, 03:03:36 AM »
I would like to hear from Jim if there is any inter-habble transportation besides Airships.  Any stairs or elevator style lifts between floors. 

One could imagine a vertical train where the cars would stack with the floors of the cars being vertically the same distance as between habble floors.  At the top, the car flips around and becomes the car going down in a second elevator shaft (both shafts could be outside the habble proper).  If you need to go up, you get in one side; down in the other.  It could stop for 1 minute at each habble.  Would take maybe 6 hours to get from bottom to top.  Maybe even faster it you stopped like an airport train.  Like 10 seconds at each stop for foot traffic.  You could have a second set of elevators that stop for longer to load cargo for a slow, but steady flow of cargo.
As far as I'm aware there are 4 staircases spaced around each level so you would have to walk the entire way.
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Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2015, 04:43:30 AM »
As far as I'm aware there are 4 staircases spaced around each level so you would have to walk the entire way.
Yeah, it's possible to walk from habble to habble, but there are tolls/taxes for each level you pass.  Walking is slow and expensive, hence the group using an airship to get down to Habble Landing.  It's also why Habble Landing has so much money to throw around on wooden buildings.  About 70% of inter-habble trade comes through their airship port (I think I remember that figure correctly, I know it was a huge chunk).  Any habble that wants to send goods to a far away habble can save money by skipping directly to Habble Landing for a smaller fee.

Habble Morning is the top habble since it has an airship platform and Habble Landing is remarkable for being the only habble that has managed to set up a third access point to a spire besides the bottom level and the top level.
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Offline knnn

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Re: Intra-Habble Transportation
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2015, 03:54:42 PM »
As far as I'm aware there are 4 staircases spaced around each level so you would have to walk the entire way.

The Auroran marines managed to get to Landing through the ducts.   Since I doubt they all managed to get to the duct on a specific level I think this means that they managed to move between the habbles through the vents.   To me this implies that there might be secondary routes between the habbles.  If big enough, these could be official secondary routes between habbles.  Even if not official, I would expect black market goods to go through here in an attempt to get around fees/taxes.
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