Author Topic: Golems Are Great  (Read 11274 times)

Offline Blk4ce

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2014, 02:34:00 PM »
In YS it says that spellcraft powers can be used to duplicate the effects of other powers (actually it says that you can do anything you can think). And mentions adding shifts to raise the duration of a ritual. If you still have to pay refresh or FP, then what's the point?

I slightly derail my own thread (the irony...) but I start thinking that there is no point in thaumaturgy if it's like that...

Offline Haru

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2014, 02:46:02 PM »
The temporary power rules (including the cost of fate points) can be found on page 92 in "Your Story". The ritual itself has nothing to do with it, other than providing the narrative justification for the temporary power. You could just as well bargain with a Sidhe so she will grant you superhuman strength, but you would still have to pay the price in terms of fate points. Or your justification for a speed power could be being hit by lightning. You would still have to pay.

Magic can duplicate effects of powers, I'm not arguing that. If you need to move a giant boulder to get into a cave, you can do a thaumaturgy ritual with a complexity equal to the difficulty someone with strength would have to face. You can even narrate it as boosting your strength to get the boulder out of the way. You are getting the effect of strength, being able to shove that boulder out of the way, but that doesn't mean you are taking strength as a temporary power. There's a difference.
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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2014, 02:50:23 PM »
TANSTAAFL

You get what you pay for. Thaumaturgy is already ridiculously strong, and it's arguably the best 3 Refresh power out there. Expecting it to give you more is somewhat unreasonable.

Offline Taran

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2014, 03:05:32 PM »
Regarding the free tag for a power.  If someone wanted to buy wings and put enough duration (say for one lifetime), I'd only allow the free tag once.  In every scene thereafter, they'd have to pay the FP's.

If they wanted it to be "free", then they'd have to buy the power.

The answer to that, then, is doing small rituals over and over again to get the tag more often but that becomes a pain.  I suppose they could build multiple tags into the same ritual...but I'd have them put duration on each tag so the complexity would get expensive fast.

Offline Blk4ce

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2014, 03:20:20 PM »
TANSTAAFL

You get what you pay for. Thaumaturgy is already ridiculously strong, and it's arguably the best 3 Refresh power out there. Expecting it to give you more is somewhat unreasonable.
I don't expect anything. I wanted to know what it CAN give me.

The temporary power rules (including the cost of fate points) can be found on page 92 in "Your Story". The ritual itself has nothing to do with it, other than providing the narrative justification for the temporary power. You could just as well bargain with a Sidhe so she will grant you superhuman strength, but you would still have to pay the price in terms of fate points. Or your justification for a speed power could be being hit by lightning. You would still have to pay.

Magic can duplicate effects of powers, I'm not arguing that. If you need to move a giant boulder to get into a cave, you can do a thaumaturgy ritual with a complexity equal to the difficulty someone with strength would have to face. You can even narrate it as boosting your strength to get the boulder out of the way. You are getting the effect of strength, being able to shove that boulder out of the way, but that doesn't mean you are taking strength as a temporary power. There's a difference.
Oh. I wasn't using the temporary power of the rules. It was a figure of speech. I mean it as in "it goes away when the ritual ends"

Regarding the free tag for a power.  If someone wanted to buy wings and put enough duration (say for one lifetime), I'd only allow the free tag once.  In every scene thereafter, they'd have to pay the FP's.

If they wanted it to be "free", then they'd have to buy the power.

The answer to that, then, is doing small rituals over and over again to get the tag more often but that becomes a pain.  I suppose they could build multiple tags into the same ritual...but I'd have them put duration on each tag so the complexity would get expensive fast.
By prerogative, if you cast a ritual to duplicate a power, you fuel with consequences, declarations etc. So it's not free. You still have to cast it every time. And I don't understand what you mean with "buy wings and put duration". Do you buy it when you do a ritual?

Offline Haru

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2014, 05:14:51 PM »
Oh. I wasn't using the temporary power of the rules. It was a figure of speech. I mean it as in "it goes away when the ritual ends"
Quote
I don't expect anything. I wanted to know what it CAN give me.
The temporary power rules are what it can give you. Don't underestimate it, it is a lot. If you want to make up new rules to make thaumaturgy more powerful, that's totally fine, but it isn't something anyone here can really give you an answer to anymore.

Quote
By prerogative, if you cast a ritual to duplicate a power, you fuel with consequences, declarations etc. So it's not free. You still have to cast it every time. And I don't understand what you mean with "buy wings and put duration". Do you buy it when you do a ritual?
Again, Taran is coming from the temporary power rules perspective. Under those rules, you would have to pay a fate point or tag for every scene you have the power. If you want to build that up to a lifetime worth of tags, that's going to be a pretty powerful ritual, more than most characters can realistically pull off.

And it's simply a balancing issue. Say it was as easy as you make it out to take up powers with thaumaturgy. Why would anyone take any power other than thaumaturgy? Simply spend a session or two to get 20+ points worth of power and you're done. That just doesn't make any sense. Yes, it's a clever way to "play the system", but you are going to hurt your game more than it would do you any good.

Now let's look at this from a different point of view. Let's say we want to create a young wizard who has a talent for enhancing himself magically. He can't really do a lot, but he can speed up his reflexes and he can make himself fly. In terms of powers, that would be Inhuman Speed and Wings. When he is enhancing himself, he is casting a spell, we already decided on that. But just because it is a spell in the narrative doesn't mean he has to take any form of spellcasting ability. Instead, we can cover Inhuman Speed and Wings with Human Form and call it a day. What that means is, that he doesn't usually have those two powers, but he can do a quick ritual to get them. The ritual is the condition under which he can access the powers, and the justification for taking those powers, it is not a ritual in the sense of the magic system. So you can have powers based on rituals, without having a spellcasting ability. But just because the justification for the powers is a magic ritual doesn't mean you are absolved of paying refresh for them.

Now having the spellcasting ability means you can do more with your spells than just access a few power. But it can still be a justification to access them. You are still going to have to pay, that's just what refresh and fate points and all that are for. You can look at it as the number of powers you can magically maintain, if they are all justified with thaumaturgy. If you have low refresh, you need a lot of time to renew the spells, so you can only keep up one or two until you have to start renewing them again. When you grow more powerful and gain more refresh, you are able to do so better. Maybe you know how to recast the spells faster or you can pump more energy into them, so they last longer. Regardless, you can maintain more powers, and that's reflected by your growing refresh.
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Offline Blk4ce

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2014, 05:55:48 PM »
Once again, I didn't speak clearly. I am sorry. I fumbled my words and said something entirely different from what I wanted to say, as it is indicated from what you understood.
I never wanted to make new rules for thaumaturgy. And I said it first that the more powerful, the more shifts were needed so it would be impractical.

Quote
Now having the spellcasting ability means you can do more with your spells than just access a few power. But it can still be a justification to access them.

That's what you meant. I never thought of that. It gives a new perspective.

Offline Taran

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2014, 05:59:23 PM »

Offline Blk4ce

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2014, 06:07:23 PM »
Yeah, that's what I was thinking actually. Treat a power that originates from a thau ritual as a tag that you invoked for effect.

Offline Taran

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2014, 07:07:23 PM »
Yeah, that's what I was thinking actually. Treat a power that originates from a thau ritual as a tag that you invoked for effect.

Well, that's how it's supposed to work.  You tag for effect and it lasts for 1 scene.  But the point is this:  some GM's don't allow the free tag and, even if you allow it, you only get the tag once.  So having a "permanent" power that comes from thaum (ie: having a ritual with a duration of "one life-time" )is going to end up costing lots of FP's because, every time you invoke for effect after the first time, it will cost 1 fp/refresh of power bought.

In the end, it's cheaper to buy the power and say you got it via Thaumaturgy.  It's one of the ways you can justify having a toughness/speed/strength power without being a scion or changeling or Emissary of Power.  You can be a regular human Wizard with Wings. 

You can't really just choose powers willy-nilly.  You should have some in-game justification for getting new powers and Thaumaturgy is one of those ways.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 07:08:55 PM by Taran »

Offline Blk4ce

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2014, 07:44:02 PM »
Well, that's how it's supposed to work.  You tag for effect and it lasts for 1 scene.  But the point is this:  some GM's don't allow the free tag and, even if you allow it, you only get the tag once.  So having a "permanent" power that comes from thaum (ie: having a ritual with a duration of "one life-time" )is going to end up costing lots of FP's because, every time you invoke for effect after the first time, it will cost 1 fp/refresh of power bought.
Got it.

Quote
In the end, it's cheaper to buy the power and say you got it via Thaumaturgy.  It's one of the ways you can justify having a toughness/speed/strength power without being a scion or changeling or Emissary of Power.  You can be a regular human Wizard with Wings. 

You can't really just choose powers willy-nilly.  You should have some in-game justification for getting new powers and Thaumaturgy is one of those ways.
That's the fun part  ;D

Offline Blk4ce

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2014, 09:12:04 PM »
Ok, after this interlude I will do a recap to get back on track:


Possibilities are a small group or one epic companion.
The golem could be treated as an enchanted item or IoP.
Possible generator could be a bound-deposited (in the enchanted item case) spirit or an item powered by magic.


Homebrew Summoning rules http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Summoning+Rules
and golem examples http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1859090.html#msg1859090
                           http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem




By InferrumVeritas (while it needs tweaking)
Duplication
Costs: 3 refresh
You have the ability to create a duplicate of yourself.  Choose an open consequence slot.  Your duplicate has a number of stress boxes equal to the value of that consequence (so 2 for Mild, 4 for Moderate, 6 for Severe).  If the duplicate is taken out, you take a consequence equal to the value of that duplicate.  All of your and your duplicate’s skills are reduced one step on the pyramid (to no less than Mediocre) while it is active.  The Duplicate’s high concept is “Copy of …”.  Other than the above, the duplicate has the same capabilities as you (but it cannot create a duplicate of itself).  Creating a duplicate takes an entire turn.  You may reabsorb your duplicate on your turn so long as you both are in the same zone, and doing so takes an entire turn. 
Extra Duplicates
Cost: 2 refresh, requires Duplication
You may create additional duplicates.  Choose another open consequence slot and reduce your skills and additional step on the pyramid for each duplicate created (to no less than Mediocre).  You may create or absorb as many duplicates as you want in a single turn, but the action takes your entire turn.
Mob of Duplicates
Cost: 3 refresh (if you have Duplication, this only costs 2 refresh)
You may create a mob of duplicates, creating one Duplicate for each open physical stress box you have.  You may take a consequence to create additional duplicates, gaining 2 for a mild consequence, 4 for mediocre, and 6 for severe.  Each character in this mob (including your “original”) only has one stress box and your skills are reduced by one step for each duplicate you control (to no less than Mediocre).  Consequences already taken may be used by any duplicate in the mob.  This power may not be used at the same time as Duplication or Extra Duplicates.
Competent Duplicates
Costs: 2 refresh, requires Extra Duplicates or Mob of Duplicates
When creating duplicates, any skill you have Fair or better may not be reduced below Average rather than Mediocre.

Things to consider:
-I'd probably go for a "Modular Abilities" like power for amount of refresh summoned allies can have if you're not doing a direct copy of yourself. 
-Allies with different skills than you are probably more useful more often than ones who just have a copy of your skills. 
-I'd probably switch the physical stress with mental stress for a magic based power like this.
-I would let this be done with Thaumaturgy, but would charge FP (or open tags) for it, like a temporary power.
-This probably need much more tweaking.



By S1C0
what i did for my first low level homunculus was to power it with my own blood, a moderate consequence then for my first fighter golem i went with creating a iop that the golem holds similar to a heart but more of a battery that needs time to absorb all forms of ambient power IE kinetic energy,fire , sunlight,magic, even the earths magnetic field ,magma (dangerous), and the slowest yet most useful hold out the force of the earth's rotation, but that was far latter for the last 3. the iop was for me took 32 shifts of power for its complexity i had to take over a month to cast but thats how it goes being an artificer "Days of planning. Weeks of building. Months of perfecting. Seconds of smashing."



By Todjaeger
A Golem is a construct (think Wardhound) and from an email exchange with Evil Hat, there should be some rules on making Constructs in the Paranet Papers.
From memory, the guidelines were to take the total point cost of all skills, stunts, and powers and total them.  That was the minimum number of shifts required for the ritual to create the construct.  Then if people want the construct to stick around, additional shifts are required for additional duration for the ritual.  Also keep in mind that going about making constructs like this could get unpleasant if the opponents wise up and manage to leave 'circle' traps scattered about.  A construct built via a ritual would essentially collapse if inside a magic circle someone else created.




By Haru
I usually try to model anything that's a permanent part of the character concept as a power in one form or another. I would do it like that here, too. That basically means, that any power the golem is supposed to have has to appear on the characters sheet and has to be paid by his refresh.

Let's say we want to have a pretty simple character. Just the guy who's building and controlling the golem, and the golem itself. Let's say a clay golem at the moment.

It would look something like this:
Feet in the Water (6 Refresh)
High Concept: Golem Master

Powers:
Beast Change [-1]
Human Form [+1]
 - inhuman Strength [-2]
 - inhuman Toughness [-2]
 - Living Dead [-1]

Skills:
Summoner:
+4 Craftsmanship, Resources
+3 Lore, Scholarship
+2 Guns, Contacts
+1 Athletics, Investigation

Golem:
+4 Might, Fists
+3 Athletics, Endurance
+2 Intimidation, Alertness
+1 Survival, Conviction


So what's actually happening? I know it looks like the golem master is turning into the golem from the powers I gave him, but that doesn't have to be the case. It's just a matter of interpretation. The character concept hinges on 2 individuals, the golem and the master, so those two are always going to be in the scene, unless the master can't take the golem with him. In the scene, the master can either take his action, or he can go into "command mode" and order his golem around to do stuff. He can't have 2 actions, one for his golem and one for himself, so he won't break the action economy. Changing between the states is a supplemental action, as it would be for a shapeshifter.
Attacking the character is a bit weird, as you could, for example, attack the master while he is in golem mode, and he shouldn't be able to defend himself. But he can, by ordering his golem around. If the golem is too far away to do so, that's a great option for compels.

Living dead basically represents the fact that the golem, if it takes any damage, can't heal, it has to be repaired using craft.

If you want to be a bit more flexible, you can take modular abilities instead of fixed powers. You would then either have a number of golems prepared in your workshop, or you can have the power to transform your one golem on the fly. If you go for the workshop option, I'd probably grant you a rebate of +1 refresh, because you don't always have access to your stuff.



Narphoenix suggested to use the above with the power Projection (needs a bit tweaking)
PROJECTION [-2]
Description: You can create a second body out of nothing and control it like a puppet.
Skills Affected: All.
Effects:
Projection. As a full action, you may create a projection in your zone. A projection is a second body that may move away from your main body. Your projection shares your skills and Stunts and Powers, but doesn't necessarily have to look like you. It does have to have a consistent appearance unless it can shapeshift, but that appearance can be just about anything. Your projection must stay within a mile of your main body or it dissolves. You can dissolve it intentionally as a supplemental action. You can only can have one projection at a time.
Multiple Actions. Each of your bodies can act once each exchange. When taking multiple actions in a single exchange, you must divide up your shifts as if making a spray attack. If the actions would use different skill totals, use the lowest one for the combined action.
Destroyable Projection. Your projection has its own physical stress track, but you share mental and social stress tracks as well as consequence slots. Stress inflicted to your projection lingers even if you dismiss the projection, though it clears at the end of the scene as normal. If your projection is taken out, you can't re-create it for the rest of the day.
Multiple Projections [-1]. You can have up to 6 projections. One action suffices to create them all. They all share a single physical stress track.
Skilled Projection [-1]. You and your projection(s) have different skills. Draw up a projection skill pyramid using the same number of points as your regular pyramid, in accordance with your skill cap. Your projection(s) must have the same rating as you in Contacts, Resources, Conviction, Discipline, Lore, and Scholarship, but apart from that you can assign its skills freely. If you want your projection(s) to have Stunts/Powers you don't or vice versa, use Limitation.




By Hick Jr
I would probably create a Golem-Master with Projection and Variable Abilities. The Variable Abilities has several lists, one for each type of golem you want to create. Add Ritual:Golems for less direct-combat stuff (i.e. making a bird-shaped golem to go spy on someone), and it'd probably look something like this, at no specific power level.

Ritual: Golems [-2]
Refinement [-X]
Skilled Projection [-3]
Variable Abilities (Golem Master, -3 Surcharge) [-X]
Limitation [+X] Variable Abilities only apply to golems.

An Iron Golem's list, for example, would probably look a bit like this. The building blocks would vary depending on your power level, and the specifics of the golem. An animated suit of armor is going to have different stats than something the size of Optimus Prime. (For reference, I based this on the Pathfinder version of an Iron Golem.)

Inhuman Strength [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
Immunity (Mortal Magic, Fire) [-6]
Limitation [+7] Toughness and Magic Immunity bypassed by rust and electricity attacks, Golem takes -2 penalty to all Athletics rolls and cannot take supplemental actions for two rounds after being hit by an electricity attack, Recovery activates only after being hit by a fire-based attack.
Hulking Size [-2]
Ranged Area Venomous Natural Weaponry (Sword, Poison Gas) [-4]
Semi-Animate [-1]
Mindless [-0]
Feel No Pain [-3]


Oh, and regarding flavor stuff for Golems, it depends on if you want to do historical/mythic golems (big clay dude with the name of God written on his forehead, keeps him alive) or more modern golems, which suit the DFRPG's definition of a golem better (a big hunk of mortal-world-stuff with an animating spirit, typically an elemental, caged inside of it and keeping it animated. the barrier that keeps the elemental in has the additional effect of keeping all other magic out. The mythical Golem has more of a "holy" bent to him, while the modern ones are a bit more multipurpose. Golems can be pretty versatile depending on how esoteric you're willing to get with it. Iron Golems, to use the above example, are typically big suits of armor, which is fine. However, don't think "animated armor". Think about those big metal eagles on the side of the Chrysler building. Think about a gigantic, poison-ink-breathing metal kraken that you reshaped a submarine into. Think about Iron Man. Think about Pacific Rim.




I think I gathered everything so far said. Do you (or anyone else) have thought of adding anything else? I want to make a fun and balanced concept.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 09:17:06 PM by Blk4ce »

Offline S1C0

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2014, 03:09:03 AM »
So did you decide one good golem or a group of mid power lesser golems for general adventure?

'case if you went with one you could get away with this setup.

just get thaumaturgy and a limited self-sponsored magic that allows you to do real golemancy so you make a "soul gem" or "heart stone" that imbues 
 
your companion a small level of sentience ,if it is circle trapped , hexed or countered, or otherwise disabled it

takes a crafting check X , Y times.GM APPROVAL To be "revived" to clear consequences requires a work site... so what do you think Blk4ce?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 03:11:51 AM by S1C0 »
Vae Victus

Offline Blk4ce

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2014, 08:43:24 AM »
That sounds nice. The GM would decide how much time tit would take to be revived, also.

To be honest I'm starting to like both ideas so I will make two characters, one with a golem squad and one with an Iron Giant and a few smaller ones for manuevers, off-combat etc.

I've even thought of concepts:
-the first would be a grad student from engineering that idolised Transformers as a kid and is determined to make his own magical Autobots.
-the second would be an archaeologist who discovered a crypt full of Golem Lore (optionally the mega-golem could be an IoP that he re-activated with the knowledge of the library he found)

Offline Taran

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Re: Golems Are Great
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2014, 01:57:49 PM »
I was thinking about it last night and had an idea that needs looking at.

Make it an IoP for the +2 since it is obviously a golem and there'll be times you can't go walking around with it.

Make it a separate character with its own action but here are the things that will balance it:
1.  It only has a physical stress track that's based on the creators craftsmanship.
2.  Its skill pyramid is based on the amount of refresh you dedicate to it.
3. Golems don't take consequences unless it gets a bonus one based on the creators craftsmanship.

So here's an example:
Feet in the water character:
-3 Thaumaturgy
-2 Iop
     +2 obvious
      -2 modular abilities
      -2 modular ability points
      -0 Undying

The character only has thaumaturgy, so in combat, he might not be that effective.  He can have 1 golem with 2 refresh worth of powers each, so its skill tree might be limited to Fair and a total of 3 or 4 skills.

Even though he gets multiple actions in an exchange, the lack of refresh makes them less useful for combat.  They'd be better off as spies.  Give one a Fair stealth and diminuitive size and Cloak of shadows or something.

Take the same Wizard at Submerged:

-3 Thaumaturgy (craftsmanship Great) golem will have 0000
-3 Evocation
-1 refinement
-2 Iop
     +2 obvious
      -2 modular abilities
      -2 modular ability points
      -0 Undying

Same golem but now the wizard is much more useful in combat.  The golems extra actions aren't really worth much in a major combat.  Really the wizard is the potent one here.  You might swap out refinement for pack instincts to represent the wizard being able to see through the golems eyes.

Or same wizard with a different configuration

-3 Thaumaturgy (craftsmanship Superb)  0000 +1 mild consequence.
-1 Pack Instincts (to see through his golems' eyes)
 - 5 Iop
    +2 obvious
     -2 (modular abilities)
     -5 modular ability points

Here the golem has a skill tree at Feet in the water.  In combat the golem is the main combatant.  The wizard could break up the modular abilities and have lots of small golems but each one will be less powerful because of their lack of refresh.  For instance, he could have 2 or 3 stealth golems with a skill tree capped at Fair.

If you want a better (but less flexible golem) you can ditch modular abilities and gain the 2 refresh(and a better skill tree).

The wizard can trick out his golem with enchanted items but they'd probably have to lower the power by 1 to let another "character" use it.

thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 02:01:43 PM by Taran »